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Practical Tactical Shooting

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Tactical Scopes
Forum Description: Police and military tools of the trade
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5297
Printed Date: March/28/2024 at 20:01
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Topic: Practical Tactical Shooting
Posted By: cheaptrick
Subject: Practical Tactical Shooting
Date Posted: January/03/2007 at 03:30

http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/ - http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shoot ing-optics/

 

I think I posted this here sometime last year.

Zak already gave me the OK to post this here.

 

Good stuff.

 

 

 



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.



Replies:
Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/03/2007 at 11:17
Great post Cheap.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/03/2007 at 13:26

Zak Smith really has his gig together.

He has the ability to explain high tech stuff and put it in laymans terms.

Glad you like it!

(Wish I would have wrote it.....)



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/03/2007 at 14:39
I hope this post of yours gets read by alot of people here at the OT.


Posted By: longbow308
Date Posted: January/06/2007 at 20:04
CT

lots of good stuff there

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longbow308
Aim small Miss small


Posted By: dusky-jeff
Date Posted: January/18/2007 at 13:42

Awesome article with a lot of helpful info for someone new to this stuff but one thing confused me. I have been lurking and reading lots of stuff here and most everyone seems to like the super sniper. I am about to order one for my 10FP-LE2A but noticed this under the conclusions section of this article.

 

"6. The angular units of the reticle features must match the angular units of the knobs' "click" values. There is no reason to have two different "systems" in use on the same scope. If the clicks are in MOA, the reticle features should be in MOA. If the reticle is in mils (e.g. Horus or Mil-dot), the knob clicks should be in mil units."

 

 Did I read it wrong? Is the super sniper not mil dot but with 1/4" adjustment knobs? Is that a drawback to the SS?



Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/18/2007 at 13:58

Welcome to The OT!!

I'm glad you liked the article.

 

I might have misunderstood your question, but yes, the SS's are 1/4" MOA adjustments.

1/4" clicks are pretty much the standard in tactical scopes.

 

  



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: dusky-jeff
Date Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:38
Thanks cheaptrick!...glad to be here.  Help me out. Maybe I'm misreading the article but it seems to imply that a scope should be mil adjustments if it's mil dot and moa adjustments if it's reticles are in moa. Is that what it says in the little bit of the article that I copied and quoted in my post? I'm most likely not understanding it correctly.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:09

The Super Sniper has .25 mil dots spaced 1 mil apart.

And yes, the 1/4" MOA are not in mills. You have to do the math.

The SS has a Army Mil Dot installed, I believe.

 

Does this diminish the outstanding value of the mighty SS???

Negative!!

 

In the tactical game, there's no better scope value than the Super Sniper IMO.

Nobody gets "beat" buying a Super Sniper....

 

I think Zak's talking about higher priced scopes here with "custom" reticles being optimum.

 

For example, the US Optics SN-3 can be ordered with a MOA reticle with MOA clicks.

The S&B PMII has a reticle in cm, and the clicks are as well. 

Allowing the shooter to range a target and adjust W/E without "doing the math".

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here gang.....



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: dusky-jeff
Date Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:28
That makes sense. Thanks for the come back. I think i'll stick with the ss and i'm sure it will be better then i am! Again, very good article.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:33

Originally posted by dusky-jeff dusky-jeff wrote:

That makes sense. Thanks for the come back. I think i'll stick with the ss and i'm sure it will be better then i am! Again, very good article.

 

Let us know when it get it mounted up.

 

Here's some links for you.

http://supersniper.com/ - http://supersniper.com/

http://mildot.com/ - http://mildot.com/

 

Regards,

cheaptrick



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 11:34
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

 

I think Zak's talking about higher priced scopes here with "custom" reticles being optimum.

 

For example, the US Optics SN-3 can be ordered with a MOA reticle with MOA clicks.

The S&B PMII has a reticle in cm, and the clicks are as well. 

Allowing the shooter to range a target and adjust W/E without "doing the math".



I don't think there's any valid argument that it's better to mix angular unit systems on a single scope, but you CAN get matching systems on factory scopes, and scopes less than the USO/S&B range.  Since there are not a lot of scopes that offer mil-based clicks, this generally means going with a MOA-based reticle and regular MOA clicks.  A common combination is the Nightforce (0.25MOA clicks) with the NPR2 or now NPR1 reticle.  But yeah, these are way more expensive than the SS.

There is a market opportunity for a "budget" scope which has matching systems..



Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 14:49

Thanks for stopping by Zak!

 

I didn't mean to misrepresent your great article.

I forgot about the NF scopes, and I guess a Leupold with a Premier Reticle would apply as well?

 



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 15:44
Good post, CT. You target/tactical guys are sooooo bad. I'm glad you aren't hunting me.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: January/21/2007 at 15:46
I don't know if Premier has any MOA-based reticles?


Posted By: orangebang72
Date Posted: March/26/2007 at 03:45
Thanks for the link cheaptrick there is a lot of information for us new guys.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/26/2007 at 09:33

I mostly agree with the article, but not entirely.

 

Hell, Unertls wouldn't qualify with his criteria; and I can't say I'd take much from anyone over an original USMC-issue Unertl.

 

For purposes of this thread and discussion, it is a great article with good info.

 

And, as stated before, the SS is the best deal going.

 

The guy didn't like Nightforce, I really like Nightforce; we'll agree to disagree.

 

Thanx for the article, CT; good stuff.



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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/26/2007 at 11:44
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Hell, Unertls wouldn't qualify with his criteria; and I can't say I'd take much from anyone over an original USMC-issue Unertl.

And what did the USMC replace it with?  The 3-12x50 PMII.

We have better technology now and we understand better what makes a good scope for practical use.

This is not to say a $3000 scope is needed to make hits, since a good rifleman will figure out how to make hits with about anything, however, by any objective measure the new scopes have more capabilities and are easier to use.



Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/26/2007 at 21:10

Yea, I know, "newer is always better: change is always improvement."

 

I liked the Unertls, I like my Nightforce.

 

one day I will invest in an Accuracy International 300 win mag and will top it with a PMII; but till then, I'll happily shoot my poor man's rig: PSS with Nightforce.

 

I did like the article, it was worth the read.

 

Got my new bumperstick from Sgt Grits today



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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 01:16
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 

one day I will invest in an Accuracy International 300 win mag and will top it with a PMII; but till then, I'll happily shoot my poor man's rig: PSS with Nightforce.


Definitely worthwhile..
 
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/BSR-2007.03/?small=D101_3464_img.jpg">   http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/BSR-2007.03/?small=D101_3464_img.jpg - [ link to LARGER image -




Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 09:13
why the can?

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 10:45
A better question is: Why isn't everyone running a can?



Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 12:04

requires whole new data table

 

only really fun if round is subsonic

 

prey never hears the report anyway

 

at about $1,000 to get it running: ROI is limited

 

for less money, I can buy a Gemtech for my H&K USP .45: cheaper to buy, cheaper to shoot, very little sound.

 

I've fired a silenced rifle or 2 and enjoyed them, but it ain't my thing.  Loud is OK, because usually accompanies hard-hitting whoop-ass.  And I have data tables for my long guns out to decent range, and I do hate making data tables.

 

But it looks like a nice setup.  Mine will look similar, only without the can, and with this sticker on the buttstock.

 



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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 12:11
Answers:

1. no
2. no
3. this isn't about hunting
4. hearing damage is forever
5. more cans are gooder
6. silenced 338 Lapua = 44 magnum hitting power @ 1200 yards = whoop-ass at a distance.


Posted By: jonbravado
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 12:37

how many dB's does the can take out of that monster sound?

 

J



Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 12:47

Not arguing with you, just making the case that my 300 win mag at 1,000 yards has more KE than a .44 mag point-blank, and hearing protection is cheaper than a can.

 

Granted, it'd be fun to play with, and granted, I am now serving in the 1st Civ Div and am no longer being shot at professionally; however, I'd rather buy a new rifle and scope than a can, at this moment in time.

 

They are fun, they do some things well, and they sound great, but since I'm not in the game any longer, I'd rather put my cash into other things.

 

And, on the subject of data table, i was refering to a subsonic round needing more data.  if you are shooting full-charge rounds, yea, you get a reduced report, but you still have the doom.  The most fun I've had with a silencer is MP5 and UMP.45.  Both shooting wet, both shooting subsonics; that is a party no one hears!



-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 12:51

And, Zak has more experience than me here, but a no-can shot from a .308 is about 165db, and the Gemtech can I shot knocked about 30-35db off that.  Still loud, but not "as loud."



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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 14:10
Quote but you still have the doom.

Definitely still DOOM.  Boom, however, is not apparent from shooter's position.  A supersonic "pop" will be audible to anyone downrange and off a right angle from the trajectory.. just like pitting @ 1000 yards.

The suppressed 260 or 308 can be shot without ears though I usually don't.   Standing 10' away, there is less report and it's ear-safe.   The recoil impulse is spread out over time longer, so it has less magnitude. The suppressed 338 is not quite as quiet as the suppressed 308, but close. 


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/27/2007 at 14:45

Freudian slip.

 

It's my mom's fault.



-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Hosco
Date Posted: March/31/2007 at 09:44
A very good work, it is very clear. 


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: March/31/2007 at 11:56
I had a suppressor on a .45 acp Mac 10 along with the two tax stamps when in Texas( all nfa rules apply) but I moved to Iowa. I must say I was never so happy to get rid of something in my life as the day I got it transferred back to a class III dealer, I had a very ambitious ATF agent out of Corpus Christi seize the gun and suppressor when I left it with the Sheriff in Aransas Co.  while I was working out the arangements to ship it to the Iowa Class III Dealer (paperwork was already approved). ATF shipped it to ATF in Des Moines and turned it over directly to the class III dealer who is a Capt. with Des Moines P.D. and Armorer for 132nd Fighter Wing.  I don't even want anymore class III stuff, ever unless it's department issued. I would love to shoot one of the new surefire suppressors sometime which could happen since every now and then one of my buddies who is with the Marshall service lets me try out his new toys.   We got a laugh out of it later but there were some tense moments involved.

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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/10/2008 at 16:30
Since we touched on suppressors in this thread, two associates and I have started a company that manufactures  suppressors in Wyoming.   http://www.thunderbeastarms.com

thanks for the interest
-z


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: March/10/2008 at 16:34
http://www.thunderbeastarms.com/ - http://www.thunderbeastarms.com/
Hot linked.
 
Thanks, Zak!


Posted By: Zak Smith
Date Posted: March/10/2008 at 16:36
That's it, thanks!


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: March/11/2008 at 14:02
I wish I could get a suppressor legally here in PRC, but I think pigs will fly before that happens.

Great article, Zak!  Very informative for those of us trying to learn long range shooting. 

As for scopes, a couple of comments:  I have never been particularly impressed with Nightforce scopes, but they certainly have a following.  It will be interesting to see how their new FFP scopes will do.

Another scope that was not mentioned that has a mil-based reticle and mil-based clicks iw IOR 2.5-10x42FFP.  For someone without the doe for S&B or USO, that is probably the cheapest way to go.

ILya


Posted By: Graysteel
Date Posted: March/11/2008 at 14:49

Nice Article. I agree with the comments about hash marks alone being less than ideal for keeping track of elevation in a field scope.


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http://www.whitesounddefense.com/pages/Tech-Articles.html - http://www.whitesounddefense.com/pages/Tech-Articles.html



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