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Over Under Shotgun

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Firearms
Forum Description: All makes, models and uses
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=46156
Printed Date: March/28/2024 at 15:32
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Topic: Over Under Shotgun
Posted By: helo18
Subject: Over Under Shotgun
Date Posted: February/09/2020 at 17:57
I am looking for a good over under shotgun.  What do you recommend?  

Price - Don't want to spend $5000 on one unless it is really going to be worth it.  I don't do as much hunting with shotguns and don't have experience so don't need something overly costly I dont think, but want something good.  Would rather buy once, cry once than be unhappy and have to keep looking for another shotgun. I will be debt free of all cars, student loans, etc by the end of the month and have some other guns I am selling to fund this but if you are going to recommend one that is super expensive, I need to know why I should spend that.

Uses - Upland game bird, duck, etc and skeet or trap for fun.  Would like one that will cross over if possible.

One thing I hate about most shotguns is length of pull.  Most are in the 14-1/2 range and just does not feel right to me.  Too long and cant shoulder it or shoot it well.Browning Citori CXS Micro is one I have been looking at due to this.


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON



Replies:
Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/09/2020 at 18:10
Beretta Silver Pigeon 12 gauge... I prefer the 30 inch for some extra distance.  I never missed a dove with it.  Wish I had mine back... one of my regrets...  Best over/under I ever put my hands on.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Son of Ed
Date Posted: February/09/2020 at 18:51
Always get a 14 inch LOP or better......  

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Visit the Ed Show


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/09/2020 at 18:54
Originally posted by Son of Ed Son of Ed wrote:

Always get a 14 inch LOP or better......  

What's the reasoning?


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/09/2020 at 23:00
Ed...



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 02:38
My first advice would be to find a skeet range, and do some regular shooting there.  Most shooters are friendly and helpful.  This will let you try different shotguns, develop your shooting skills, and find out what works for you.

Shotgunning is an instinctive sport.  If your shotgun doesn’t fit you right, you will do a whole lot of missing.  If your stock is too long, when you go hunting you will find it catching on your coat or under your arm when you try to bring it up.  If it is too short, the recoil will be painful and it will pull away from your shoulder on crossing shots.  No one can tell you what your shotgun stock or barrel length should be unless they know you and work with you. One advantage O/U’s and some semi-autos do have is that you can alter length of pull somewhat by moving your hand further out or further back on the fore-end.  However, this does shift the point of balance. 

We’ve fitted an O/U to a smaller-framed family member.  He chose 26" barrels, and added a recoil pad.  Overall stock length (with the pad) was also reduced by ½".  He shoots it very, very well and very quickly because it fits him.
 
The flip side of this is that any alteration of your shotgun stock (even to fit a recoil pad) can reduce the resale value of your gun.  And any shotgun that differs from the norm will be far more difficult to resell and will fetch a lower price.
  
Over/unders are pretty and classy, but they come with their own set of problems (selectors, triggers, only two shots, and twice as many barrels to clean).  An O/U will not break any more targets or kill any more birds than a pump or semi-auto. 

I would not lay out serious coin for an over/under shotgun until you know pretty specifically what works or doesn’t work for you.  You can buy a cheap Remington pump, experiment all you like, and then sell it for much less than the cost of making a mistake on an O/U.


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 07:10
I have a rem 870 tactical and a benelli m4. Mostly they have been just been in the safe or by the bed.  I also have a single shot youth 20 ga that feels comfortable to me. It isn't that I don't have some, just that I don't shoot them much because they dont feel right to me. 

I am 5' 8" but grew up having short stocks on rifles and such since I was about 4' when I started hunting and shooting. I also have broad shoulders but shorter arms so long length of pull is uncomfortable.


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 11:15
Fit is the most important thing, whatever you buy.

Scrummy


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 11:25
Try several at stores to find your fit. Close your eyes before throwing the shotgun to your shoulder. Then open your eyes. When you find one where you are looking flat down the rib. Get it, or get the measurements. I have a passion for my Ruger Red Label. Perfect fit for me. Not quite as expensive but a reliable shooter. A field shotgun need not be fancy to shoot. A fancy shotgun is good to look at, but you spend too much worrying that it will get marred or scratched taking it into the field.


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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 11:50
I bet Doug ( http://www.opticstalk.com/member_profile.asp?PF=2989 - tahqua ) and Kevin (Coyote95) have some good advice. 


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: coyote95
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 15:24
Andrew, this is a tough one !  I really like my Beretta's because of the gauge specific frame sizes and they make some of the slimmer actions but you would have to cut some wood off of the butt stock because it looks like they don't have youth stocks. No big deal in my opinion.  I would also mention the SKB 690 series. I picked one up a few years back in 28 gauge and thought it was a very nice gun for the money with similar lines to the Beretta 686 28 ga that I have. It does come in a youth model also.

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"Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep balance you must keep moving" Albert Einstein


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 17:18
Berettas and SKBs are good O/U shotguns.  So are Rugers, but they aren't currently making them.
Browning has disappointed me on several occasions when repair services or supplies were needed.

On stock length, you could try fitting a 1/4" recoil pad with a 1/4" overall length reduction.
This would let you restore it to normal length by changing to a 1/2" pad if you sell it.  

I wouldn't do more than 3/8" overall reduction with a 1/4" pad.  This could be brought back to normal with a spacer and 1" recoil pad.  The 1/2" reduction I mentioned was for a family member not much over 5'2".  Once you are happy with  your stock length and shotgun, you can do whatever you want with it. 

Please understand that changing your stock length or adding a recoil pad can change the shotgun's balance and possibly its point of impact.  Not all shotguns shoot where they should in the first  place, even with one barrel, much less two.

You wanted an all-around shotgun.  A 20 gauge with one ounce of shot will do everything that needs to be done on upland birds, skeet, and possibly trap unless you are a competition shooter (international trap loads cannot exceed 7/8 ounce).  A 20 is lighter, handier, and easier to swing.  You will need a 12 for ducks and geese, however, because of the steel shot requirement.  We shot lots of geese with one shot kills using 20 gauges and one ounce loads of buffered #4 hard lead shot before steel shot was required.   Note that Coyote95 seems to be happy with his 28 gauge.  (This tells me he's probably a good shot with a good bit of experience.)
 
  

  


Posted By: Son of Ed
Date Posted: February/10/2020 at 20:17
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Originally posted by Son of Ed Son of Ed wrote:

Always get a 14 inch LOP or better......  

What's the reasoning?

It fits. Otherwise you hit your lip with your thumb when it goes off. That's why most shotguns come with a long LOP unless it's a Remington....





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Visit the Ed Show


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 05:00
Longhunter,

What issues did you run into with Browning? More so thinking what happened to the firearm that needed repair. 

Altering the stock could be an option although if it has a 14-1/2 lop I would be looking at almost an inch coming off to get the feel comfortable. 


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 07:37
A lot of good advice here. I'm no shotgun expert, but what I have learned from the experts has helped a lot. Longhunter has good advice about going to a skeet/trap range a getting help from the guys that break lots of birds. This will help you look for a shotgun that fits you. getting the right stance, and finding a shotgun that fit me were the biggest things that helped me break more birds.
Now that I have a shotgun that fits me; a Ruger Red Label 2nd issue, my problems are correct lead, and the jerk behind the trigger.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 08:00
I have a max-5 browning cynergy I use for duck hunting...... but 3.5" shells punish on both ends with it!

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 18:41
How are the CZ shotguns?

Will a 3" 20 ga be enough for geese or duck if I ever decide to try that ?


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 19:54
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

How are the CZ shotguns?

Will a 3" 20 ga be enough for geese or duck if I ever decide to try that ?

I have a CZ Mallard, accuracy is great.  Really not bad for a cheaper shotgun.  No real complaints other than the action requires a "bump" to open after firing.  Probably doesn't happen on all of them, just my curse with CZ products.  Not a show stopper... I would buy the same shotgun again... it's that good in accuracy. 



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 19:59
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

How are the CZ shotguns?

Will a 3" 20 ga be enough for geese or duck if I ever decide to try that ?

I have a CZ Mallard, accuracy is great.  Really not bad for a cheaper shotgun.  No real complaints other than the action requires a "bump" to open after firing.  Probably doesn't happen on all of them, just my curse with CZ products.  Not a show stopper... I would buy the same shotgun again... it's that good in accuracy. 


Range is much different with a 12, but 20 gauge WILL kill geese and ducks.  Back in the day, 10 gauge was considered a "goose gun".  


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 20:24
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Longhunter,

What issues did you run into with Browning? More so thinking what happened to the firearm that needed repair. 

Altering the stock could be an option although if it has a 14-1/2 lop I would be looking at almost an inch coming off to get the feel comfortable. 

I had a nice Remington 870 20 gauge pump, but also wanted and bought my "dream shotgun"...a factory new original Browning Liege Lightning 20 gauge O/U with 3" chambers.  It swung and pointed like a dream...but on cold mornings the inertia trigger malfunctioned and it became a frustrating single-shot gun.  (Imagine that on a quail shoot when the second bird takes off!)  

I sent it back to Browning for repair (several times as I recall).  They sent it back "repaired", but the inertia trigger continued to malfunction.   It was a "one-shot wonder" on cold mornings.  I finally gave up, and sold it.  

I also tried to get extra keys for an expensive Browning gun case.  They didn't have them!

Effective stock length depends on a number of things, including the shape of the pistol grip.  You don't want to base your judgement just on the nominal length.






Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/11/2020 at 21:22
If I was looking for a shotgun and did not want to sink a lot of money I would pick up a single shot Henry they just started makeing those last year.  As far as over under the only one I ever  owned was a Belgium Browning 20 ga  improved / modified  ( back before anyone ever heard of choke tubes)
The Beretta and Browning guns are the ones to look at.  Selection depends on use.  I personally have seen the wear and tear that hunting ducks and geese puts on a shotgun around salt water but my dad was not the best at maintaining his Model 12 Win.  I've looked at the cheaper over under guns and the action does not have the same feel as a Browning.  I have an old single shot 12 ga Winchester with a short barrel and a couple of riot guns and they kill turkeys just fine.  When I was growing up in Texas I always had a 12 ga pump from Sears made by Mossberg but it was deadly.  I will suggest you consider   https://www.gunadapters.com/ - https://www.gunadapters.com/     these chamber adapters.


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: coyote95
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 06:38
CZ makes nice shotguns for the money I think. My first sxs  was a Bobwhite in 12ga that handled great and if it didn’t have them funky bulges in the end of barrels I’d probably still have it.  

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"Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep balance you must keep moving" Albert Einstein


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 08:46
20ga will kill all that flys with the right ammo.   buddy just picked up a franchi 20 semi this year and started using Boss ammo after I turned him onto it.   he killed snow geese no problem at the same ranges I was with my 12ga.   ammo selection will negate the 20ga being "under gunned"

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 09:01
Maybe, but a 20 will never be the equal of a 12. 
I have used 12, 20 and 28 ga. on pheasant through the years. The 28 is closer to the 20 than the 20 is to the 12. When the birds are flushing further out I would always rather have a 12 ga. 
Where I stand now is 12 for waterfowl and turkey. The 28 exclusively for grouse and woodcock and pheasant in close. Pheasant flushing out far, a 12.


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Doug


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 10:20
Food for thought...........I hate the newer (last 20yrs) O/U's of any that have been brought to me for repair or consignment. Breech is way too stiff and the inner components are monkey metal junk. If I felt I had to have a O/U I would look for something built mid 60's to late 70's. Most of those I have handled were really well built and never needed more than cleaning.
 
Also I don't like anything under 12ga for live game unless you have become proficient beforehand.
20ga is fine for skeet/trap.
 
Here are a few on G Broker.
 
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/844782202 - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/844782202     Ithaca Model 600 Skeet Gun
 
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/856216078 - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/856216078     Beretta pre 686 S56E european model O/U 20 ga
 
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/855237785 - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/855237785     Browning Superposed Midas Grade 12GA 26.5"
 
Good Luck with it!!
 
Salute!


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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 11:28
20 ga for occasional trap. Very few on the line 

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Doug


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 22:02
Sounds like the majority is saying 12 ga. Do like the idea of 20 ga for a lighter shotgun but want to cover the widest range. I may never own more than this one over under so want it to count. 

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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/12/2020 at 22:24

A 12 gauge will give you more versatility for upland, waterfowl and clays, especially trap. For barrel length I find the 28 in. gives better balance than 26 or 30 inch and has a nice sighting plane, yet still quick to shoulder and point. The LOP is also a variable that can be influenced by drop at the comb and pistol, straight or Prince of Wales grips. Only you can determine what fits. So, don’t get hooked up on the numbers because if it comes up and is on plane every time is what matters.

Without spending a ton, Beretta’s are nice. They have wonderful slim actions due to the locking mechanism. My brother, coyote95, and another friend both have sets of 12, 20  and 28 gauge. Beretta’s. They are beautiful, lock up tight and solid. They hold their value and are very sexy. They are about the best handling stack barrels for me.

Browning Citori’s  are reliable and always lock up tight. They can be found used for a reasonable cost and there are smiths everywhere. Three of my friends have them in 12 gauge and never a problem. They are a bit clunky compared to a Beretta due to the locking and not as “sexy”, though.

CZ’s are a Turkish made gun and mine is a DeHaan S01 straight stock that is made in the same Huglu cooperative. A DeHaan is essentially a handpicked CZ off the same manufacturing process. The CZ and DeHaan do have slight bulges on the barrel ends because they are swaged open for the traditional screw in chokes. Aesthetically, they don’t bother me. I have also had similar problems with my Dehaan that Dan has had. I have to give it a bump on opening and mine is a little 28 ga. SxS. For the money they are nice.

SKB are another Turkish gun, but made by Akus. They are higher quality than Huglu. Mine is a 200 SxS 28 gauge with Prince of Wales stock and it is tighter than my Huglu. There are no barrel bulges either because of the thin walled chokes. It also has much nicer Turkish walnut. I would not hesitate on an SKB. They are made from the same Japanese prints as before, O/U and SxS.

I have a matched set of Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade’s from the late 60’s/70’s, 20 and 12 ga. You can find them for a fair price and they are tight and well made. My  101 12 gauge could handle all puddle jumping for ducks and upland hunting.

Great site for info

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/ - https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/

http://www.dawsonsdoubles.com/ - http://www.dawsonsdoubles.com/



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Doug


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/13/2020 at 17:54
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/855943453

Would this be worth it? Lost lop at 13-5/8 which would be pretty good for me I think. 


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/13/2020 at 17:57
Should be a good one and somebody already shortened it

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Doug


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/13/2020 at 20:28
Just MY thoughts on it, which will probably be different than many or even most... but that's the way I roll...
Fine shotgun, no doubt about it.  However, unless you just REALLY want this one, I think it is overpriced.  I would pay a max of $1000.00.  Just me.  If it is in perfect condition and you really want it, $100.00 above average price is not that bad.  It's pretty, it will (given great condition) shoot great, it's one of those personal calls.  $100.00 is almost nothing these days.  I could almost talk myself into it.  Overall, it's a really good shotgun.


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/13/2020 at 22:33
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/854086153   doesnt say how its choked full would be a mistake with steel shot.



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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: coyote95
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 06:11
i would first have to ? the photo with the rear part of rib, looks like it could be bent ? you can get a new SKB 690 for that kind of change Smile

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"Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep balance you must keep moving" Albert Einstein


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 06:24
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/854086153   doesnt say how its choked full would be a mistake with steel shot.


Says full and modified in the description at the bottom of the listing.

Andrew, I don’t think you can go wrong with a Red Label if it fits you. They aren’t fancy ( though you can sometimes find some with really nice wood), but they are solidly made and very reliable. I have one in 20 ga from when they were first introduced, back when they had blued receivers. 

Kev and Doug (or anyone), have you ever played with any of the Fausti mid range shotguns? Not the ones Fausti OEM’ed for other brands like Weatherby... like, say the Class O/U or DEA S/S?


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 07:09
I don't know about that Red Label, but I have one of the 2nd issue Red Labels and I love mine; it fits me, and as long as I do my part, it breaks birds. But remember, I'm no shotgun expert.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 07:35
Another thought, you don't want to take a big loss if it turns out you just don't like it. If you choose one on G/B watch to see if others are bidding. No bids doesn't always mean over priced but usually does. Or at the time the demand is low due to season. I noticed those that I suggested have no bids with 1 to 3 days left. So I looked for others like those for comparison. Here is one just listed that might be a contender. Shows use but looks to be a good shotgun.
 
20ga.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/850589071 - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/850589071     SKB Model 600 20 gauge O/U
 
Good Luck!
 
Salute!


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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 08:06
Personally, unless you know what you want, I'd want to handle and shoulder a shotgun before I bought it. Kind of hard to do that on the internet.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 08:47
What BF said....

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Doug


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 08:49
I've never played with a Fausti.  But the Fausti sisters....

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Doug


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 10:35
I have a Weatherby Orion Field Grade III and it is a fantastic shotgun. I am not sure if they still make them but I would buy a used one in good shape in a heartbeat. 

12 gauge and easy to shoot all day long. 


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 12:13
Went to the local store. They don't have a lot of over unders, but did have one with a 14" lop. Maverick. Felt ok but still a little long. The others they had with 14-1/2 felt really long. 

Honestly the feel I like the best so far is the youth single shot 20 ga I have for pest around the house. I like the short lop and shorter barrel and how fast it points. 

Would like to move to a over/under for pheasant hunting and upland game bird. 

Guess overall the short lop and barrel options seem more appealing. Need to get to a bigger store and city to handle more of them. 


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 13:04
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

I've never played with a Fausti.  But the Fausti sisters....

So you’ve played with the Fausti sisters? Good to know! 


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 17:23
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/boss-shotguns/boss-co-best-quality-sidelock-ejector-over-and-under-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101375515 - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/boss-shotguns/boss-co-best-quality-sidelock-ejector-over-and-under-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101375515
I know this is out of reach but Boss & Co Best Quality side lock ejector shotguns don't show up often.
Like a lot of old guns that extra full choke is a problem today, but its a cool old gun.


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 17:29
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/boss-shotguns/boss-co-best-quality-sidelock-ejector-over-and-under-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101375515 - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/boss-shotguns/boss-co-best-quality-sidelock-ejector-over-and-under-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101375515
I know this is out of reach but Boss & Co Best Quality side lock ejector shotguns don't show up often.
Like a lot of old guns that extra full choke is a problem today, but its a cool old gun.

😳 52k for a 15" lop. Did king kong own that thing?


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 20:20
Hey Andrew, this may just be a case of you not being accustomed to shooting shotguns and the correct way to shoulder them. I don't shoot shotguns very much, but I've always heard you want a shotgun to have 1" to 1.5" greater LOP than whatever LOP is ideal for you on a rifle. This is why you're seeing LOPs on shotguns between 14-15". The reasons: a shotgun has a much lower comb and the butt stock slopes downward, putting your cheek lower on the stock so that your eye naturally lines up with the barrel rib, which is much lower to the receiver than a scope on a rifle. Also, when shouldering a shotgun, you smoothly swing it up to your cheek first before pulling it back into your shoulder. You bring the shotgun butt to your cheek rather than lowering your cheek to the stock. 



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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 20:28
Ted, you very well could be right.  As seems to be the norm.  Need to get somewhere and with someone that can show me the proper way to hold it and proper stance.

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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 20:48
Take a trap class. I did and my averages went up on birds too.

-------------
Doug


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/14/2020 at 21:07
Doug and/or Kevin,
While we're on the subject of double-barreled shotguns, I'd be interested in hearing your take on O/U vs S/S. Which do you prefer and why? Which helps you get higher hit % on birds (if either)? What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Thanks!


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: February/15/2020 at 05:17
Old truism: “If God had wanted you to shoot an O/U he’d have stacked you eyes on top of each other.”


-------------
God save the Empire!


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/15/2020 at 07:36
I have a few reasons and the first gun I bird hunted with in 1970 was a 30 inch SxS 12 gauge that I still have. Many years ago I mentioned double guns to a good friend and when I showed him my O/U, he quickly pointed out that there is only one double gun and that is a SxS. He showed his double guns and I have been hooked since. He passed away in 2018, I am forever grateful for him being a friend and mentor.
Stack barrels, even Beretta's, have a much higher profile in the receiver. It is far more comfortable for me to grasp a SxS and carry all day long than an O/U. I can grasp a smaller gauge over under from the side but it just doesn't balance the same. I have been using SxS for upland exclusively since 2009.
My shooting has never been better on birds than with double guns. 
...........and what Craig said


-------------
Doug


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/15/2020 at 08:32
For upland, what is your go to ammo? Do you use 3" or stick with 2-3/4" and why?

-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/15/2020 at 08:53
2 3/4 inch; 5 and 6 shot for pheasant in 12 gauge, 7 1/2 & 8 for grouse and woodcock in 20 and 28. I have used 7 1/2 28 gauge for released pheasant in close.
I see no need for 3 inch regarding upland. Throws a bigger pattern if you are so inclined to pound your shoulder.


-------------
Doug


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: February/15/2020 at 10:21
Agree with Doug about ammo for upland hunting, 11/8 oz is all you need and old shoulders will thank you.. When waterfowl hunting using my son’s Beretta Black Onyx will up the game to 3” #2 steel for duck and BB for geese over decoys.

Have you checked for used Browning BSS? Well thought of around here back in the day.



-------------
God save the Empire!


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: February/15/2020 at 11:37
We use these just about exclusively on crow and anything bigger. Have even taken turkey out to 30yds. Very impressive patterns and kill power. Buy them buy the case and save a few bucks.
 
Estate Cartridge High Velocity Hunting Load 12 Gauge Ammunition 2-3/4" Shell #5 Lead Shot 1-1/4oz 1330fps


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/16/2020 at 13:05
With a SxS or O/U, will they be similar as far as aim? With two barrels they have to me aligned at a certain distance? SxS would be left or right hitting at a range closer or farther than that point? O/U would be high or low when not at that point?

-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: February/16/2020 at 13:21
Ideally, and whether up or down or right to left, the patterns should overlap at 40 yards. That is where cheap double barreled guns and higher quality double barreled guns usually differ.

-------------
Doug


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: February/16/2020 at 15:51
As Doug said regulation is setup for 40 yards and takes some skill to accomplish so important to check on less expensive doubles. I prefer double triggers and M, I/C chokes for my bird hunting (my gun has fixed chokes). With my shotgun the front trigger fires the more open choke in the right barrel and the rear trigger the left (modified choke) barrel.

-------------
God save the Empire!


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/16/2020 at 18:45
Got to another store. They had a CZ Quail in 20 ga. Has a 13-3/4 in lop. Had an amazing feel to me. Used Ted's instructions of cheek first then shoulder  andthat shotgun lined up every time. 
Tried a couple pointer 12 ga with 14-1/2 and couldn't get the same feel.  


-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: coyote95
Date Posted: February/17/2020 at 06:08
Andrew if it feels good and you like it buy it ! my first o/u was a 20 and still have it.    you can always get a 12,16,28 and 410 later Smile                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dogger loved the explanation of why the sxs                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ted  i have decided to keep things simple for me and hunt with the same 686's just different size frames   that way there i cant blame the gun lol     I do really love the sight picture of the sxs and will hunt with one again.  Thank you Doug !                                                                                                Ted you also wood look good wearing a DEA  Wink                                                                                                          

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"Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep balance you must keep moving" Albert Einstein


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/17/2020 at 08:34
Originally posted by coyote95 coyote95 wrote:

Ted you also wood look good wearing a DEA  Wink                                                     

I totally, 100% agree with you! 

But my bank account would look decidedly “less good.”


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: coyote95
Date Posted: February/17/2020 at 09:56
the Caesar Guerini are another Italian double I really like.  I’ve always said that the Berretta 686 has allowed me to have a entry level Italian.  Maybe someday I will have one with fancy wood and gold inlays Cool








-------------
"Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep balance you must keep moving" Albert Einstein


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/29/2020 at 12:57
Andrew, have you decided on a shotgun yet?

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/29/2020 at 13:00
I have not. Still wanting to get my hands on a Browning Micro in person to see how it feels. I've heard they come with stock spacers to increase the lop from 13". 

The CZ Quail in 20 felt absolutely amazing but would like to feel something with the same lop in 12 gauge. 


-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: March/02/2020 at 21:01
I came late.... but have lots to say... I sure wish I was a better writer!  Personally, the only all around gun I own is a 30-06, and I will never get rid of it.  When it comes to shotgun hunting, my go to is a semi-auto.  I have 3 Browning Gold's at the moment.  1 wood 3" version in 12 ga with 26" barrel.  its the Bomb on pheasants, quail, Sharptails/Chickens and chukars.  2 syntethics in 3.5" with 28" barrels (wish 1 was 26") and they are great for waterfowl.  I also had a Gold in 20 ga. but my oldest son has that now.  I plan to trade back for it when I get a little older. For trap, I shoot the wood Gold at the 16' line and handicap.  I have different choke tubes for trap.  For doubles, I have a Browning Citori 12 ga with 30" barrels.  its heavy, but even with the fine recoil pad I had added, recoil becomes an issue after a few boxes(which is why I shoot the semi-auto Gold)  The Citori has an add-on recoil pad that is adjustable and also adds length.  At first I didn't think I could shoot with the added length, but in trap you mount the gun and then call for the target, so the length doesn't impair shouldering it.
 
 
I will tell you this, O/Us suck in a pit blind!   Not sure what kind of waterfowl hunting you'll end up doing, but I wouldn't recommend an O/U.  if money wasn't an issue for me, I'd own a Browning Superposed in 20ga.  A local retailer has a very nice one right now, but its $2700.  I need to buy my GF a ring before I put down that much on a shotgun.  You're welcome to it if you decide its worth your $$.  I would also love to have a 20 SxS.  Ithica made some nice ones... New Improved Doubles I think they were called.  Winchester and Browning also did, but I favor the narrow pistol grip stocks like the European models.
 
I wrote all this because I wouldn't recommend 1 shotgun to do all the things you intend to do.  I wouldn't use a 20 ga on Ducks or Geese.  Maybe I'm not a good enough shot anymore, but with steel, 12 ga is the min.   back in the 90s, I was fortunate enough to live in prime pheasant country in NE Nebraska.  we had lots of CRP and lots of Pheasants.  I shot my first true triple (3 birds got up, 3 shots later, all were on the ground) with a Remington 870 with 30" barrel and mod choke.  My second triple was with the Gold.  Semi's suck a lot of the recoil out of equation and they help with easier follow-up shots!  
 
Not sure what your true budget is, you mentioned you didn't want to spend $5,000.  well you can easily get the Superposed I mentioned above ( I think you would like the fit and feel as its a smaller frame than the 12) and also find a nice Gold in 12ga.  Depending on local smiths, You shouldn't have a problem getting either to fit you either.  Of course, you might be able to find a 20 Superposed for less than the one I mentioned, you just have to look around.


-------------
take em!


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: March/02/2020 at 23:16
The Tipster has a good point. Trying to do it all with one shotgun results in a compromised choice for everything. Throwing waterfowl in the mix really calls for a 12 ga. But, I personally think it’s more enjoyable to hunt upland birds with a light, lively 20.

So, if I were you, I’d decide which type of bird hunting you were most interested in and get the best tool for that job first. If you’re more interested in upland bird hunting, I’d get a nice 20 ga double (either O/U or S/S) first. Then later get a 3.5” chamber 12 SA for waterfowl and turkeys. I agree for waterfowl and turkeys, I too prefer a semiauto. For upland birds, I’m kinda drawn to the nostalgia and classic elegance of a fine double. But to each his own. 

I’m way more into rifles and pistols than shotguns and I really don’t do a lot of shotgunning compared to the amount of shooting I do with every other type of firearm.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: March/03/2020 at 21:10
.........or get a set of matched SxS set in 12 and 28 gauge. 

-------------
Doug


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: March/04/2020 at 07:07
Which do you prefer Doug, Holland & Holland or Purdey?

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God save the Empire!


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: March/04/2020 at 21:40
I'll take a Boss over either................in my dreams. Of those two Purdey based only on the name. H&H means rifle to me.

-------------
Doug


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: March/05/2020 at 08:10
Great choice, although probably have to sell my house to afford any of them!






-------------
God save the Empire!


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: March/16/2020 at 16:11
Well, I am on hold for the moment. Got laid off and have to conserve funds for now. 

Think since I don't plan on any duck or goose hunting I'll go for a 20 ga. They have felt the best so far on the over unders I have handled. Till I get work I'll just stick to my youth single shot 20. Pheasant doesn't open till fall anyway. 


-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: March/16/2020 at 16:23
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

.........or get a set of matched SxS set in 12 and 28 gauge. 

I have a 20/28 gauge SxS Dickinson Arms set. Plantation model.


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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: March/16/2020 at 20:21
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Well, I am on hold for the moment. Got laid off and have to conserve funds for now. 


Oh man, Andrew...I'm so sorry to hear this brother!


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: March/16/2020 at 20:29
Originally posted by Peddler Peddler wrote:

Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

.........or get a set of matched SxS set in 12 and 28 gauge. 

I have a 20/28 gauge SxS Dickinson Arms set. Plantation model.

Dickinson shotguns are extremely nice for the money! They are made by Akus, one of the better Turkish gun mfgs. Their quality looks good to me, and they are capable of making some extremely fine shotguns comparable to at least the mid- to upper-tier Spanish stuff (AyA, Arietta, Grulla, etc) with their custom shop guns. They were the OEM for several domestic brands' doubles -- SKB, S&W, Kimber, etc. I'm pretty sure the SKB 200 is the same shotgun as the Dickinson Estate except with Prince of Wales style stock and beavertail forend instead of the Dickinson English style stock/splinter forend.

I've been very tempted by a Plantation or Estate model SxS on multiple occasions.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: March/16/2020 at 22:19
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Well, I am on hold for the moment. Got laid off and have to conserve funds for now. 
 
 
 
sorry to hear that... hope something comes up soon!


-------------
take em!


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/17/2020 at 07:14
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Peddler Peddler wrote:

Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

.........or get a set of matched SxS set in 12 and 28 gauge. 

I have a 20/28 gauge SxS Dickinson Arms set. Plantation model.

Dickinson shotguns are extremely nice for the money! They are made by Akus, one of the better Turkish gun mfgs. Their quality looks good to me, and they are capable of making some extremely fine shotguns comparable to at least the mid- to upper-tier Spanish stuff (AyA, Arietta, Grulla, etc) with their custom shop guns. They were the OEM for several domestic brands' doubles -- SKB, S&W, Kimber, etc. I'm pretty sure the SKB 200 is the same shotgun as the Dickinson Estate except with Prince of Wales style stock and beavertail forend instead of the Dickinson English style stock/splinter forend.

I've been very tempted by a Plantation or Estate model SxS on multiple occasions.


KCR had a Akus 12Ga. SXS that fit me very well. I was saving up to buy it until the Ruger Red Labels came in. Both shotguns fit me, and it took a couple of weeks to make up my mind. I finally went with the Ruger because of the safety, and the ejectors. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone wrong with either choice.

Sorry about the lay off Andrew. Hopefully oil will get back to normal soon.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: March/17/2020 at 08:26
Correct on the SKB 200. Mine is a 28 gauge. Note, the SKB 200 is being changed from thin walled chokes to a Mobil Choke type and will now have the swaged barrel ends that flair slightly for the thicker choke. They are also adding a barrel selector.
My friend has a Dickinson Estate in 28 gauge and it is quite nice. I am considering one in 12 gauge now. I am also looking at Fausti and Ugartechea.
Nice pair of doubles Skip!
BTW, Akus made the S&W, Weatherby and Kimber double guns, as stated. They are worth looking for used. Huglu are CZ as were the DeHaan.



-------------
Doug


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: March/17/2020 at 09:02
Pacific Arms carry a nice selection of doubles and I have been visiting them as their East store is nearby. They have a bespoke line of Dickinsons that are nice but they don't match the grade of a Grulla in any shape or form from what I have seen. 
I have looked at A and A forever and they are nice and the lesser grades can be found for a fair price. Fieldsport here in Traverse City is well known and have a nice selection of AyA.

http://www.fieldsportltd.com/gunroom/gunroom.php - http://www.fieldsportltd.com/gunroom/gunroom.php

https://www.joeletchenguns.com/ - https://www.joeletchenguns.com/

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ - http://www.doubleshotguns.com/

https://pacificsportingarms.com/ - https://pacificsportingarms.com/


-------------
Doug


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: March/17/2020 at 15:14
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Got laid off and have to conserve funds for now.


Sorry to hear that.


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: March/17/2020 at 15:41
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Correct on the SKB 200. Mine is a 28 gauge. Note, the SKB 200 is being changed from thin walled chokes to a Mobil Choke type and will now have the swaged barrel ends that flair slightly for the thicker choke. They are also adding a barrel selector.
My friend has a Dickinson Estate in 28 gauge and it is quite nice. I am considering one in 12 gauge now. I am also looking at Fausti and Ugartechea.
Nice pair of doubles Skip!
BTW, Akus made the S&W, Weatherby and Kimber double guns, as stated. They are worth looking for used. Huglu are CZ as were the DeHaan.


Doug, I misspoke the other day I got my buddy the Plantation combo 20/28 gauge two barrel set and I got the Estate combo 20/28 gauge two barrel set.


-------------
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: March/18/2020 at 19:05
Sorry for the job news, Andrew. You can reserve this for when you are up and going again
https://pacificsportingarms.com/product/boss-co-best-single-trigger-prince-of-wales-pistol-grip-game-20ga-26-312/ - https://pacificsportingarms.com/product/boss-co-best-single-trigger-prince-of-wales-pistol-grip-game-20ga-26-312/


-------------
Doug


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: April/05/2020 at 20:31
Some good new among the chaos in our country.  I did get a job.  Will start the 8th.  Pepsi offered me my management position I had before at same pay and benefits.  I couldn't turn it down considering the economy and oil prices currently.

Have to get the emergency fund built back up, but hoping to have the shotgun in time to practice before pheasant season this fall.


-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 04:47
👍

-------------
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 06:05
Great stuff Helo!


-------------
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 06:06
Congratulations Andrew! That’s incredible news!




-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 06:14
Fantastic Andrew

-------------
Doug


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 07:33
Good to hear Andrew. Hope things keep getting better for you.


-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 08:03
Good for you Andy!!!  I am heading in the other direction.... forced into retirement.



-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 10:01
excellent news Andy!   can't wait to see what you end up with!


-------------
take em!


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 10:22
A Job hopefully!!!

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: April/06/2020 at 13:08
Congrats Andrew! Glad to hear that!



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