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R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...

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Topic: R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...
Posted By: Kickboxer
Subject: R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...
Date Posted: October/13/2019 at 16:27
I have the subject rifle, built by Remington Custom Shop, that I acquired a few years ago.  I've been considering rechambering to .458 Lott. ( I have Ruger #1 in .458 Lott and LOVE IT).  I've recently found load data for .458 WinMag using 510 grain RNSP and Norma 201 to produce 2350 fps from a 24 inch barrel.  That load is in very close in performance to the best I've found for the Lott.  I love the Lott, it is my absolute favorite of all my rifles.  
I went out today to test the R700 Custom Shop rifle with Remington Hi-Speed ammo 510 grains at 2150 fps... producing under 1MOA at 100, recoil is mild.  I'm pretty sure I can successfully tackle any DG I care to with that... but I still want the Lott.
I always fear that altering anything, when you have great performance, will create problems.  I have an appointment with the best gunsmith in the area tomorrow morning.  I'm going to take him the gun, let him look it over, get some guarantees.  If he is not willing to guarantee performance after the rechamber, I'll probably just leave it as is.  
I have not shot it in a while, glad I did today.  I just keep thinking about the ad that convinced me to purchase the .458 Lott...".458 Lott... guaranteed to knock down anything that walks on the planet".  Hard to resist.  


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living



Replies:
Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: October/14/2019 at 20:53
Is the action long enough for the LOTT the brass looks quite a bit longer.  Would it be the same bolt face? Changing the bolt face is the thing I would worry about because this type caliber Must extract and eject. Can it use the Badger Ordnance AR type Magnum extractor or a Sako type extractor?
What about building one on an action like a Ruger 77 controlled round feed?

or........ buy a double rifle problem solved.

Personally a .458 WM that shoots that well I would leave alone.  It's been a very long time since I owned a .458 WM the .375H&H is as heavy as I go currently.  Most recent rifle was a Marlin 1894 SBL stainless .44 mag 16 in barrel very nice rifle.  My results having rifles built have not met my expectations. Your results may vary.


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/14/2019 at 23:15
Yes, I am still "thinking" about it.  The Custom Shop does great work and this gun shoots like a champ. The magazine is definitely long enough.  Long ago, when I began the thought process on this, I loaded a Lott cartridge in the magazine and a WinMag cartridge on top of it, chambered and ejected the WinMag cartridge and started the Lott cartridge into the chamber.  Of course, I did not jam it home so could not check ejection of the Lott cartridge.  I have loaded and ejected a number of .375 H&H cartridges.  The measurements I've taken indicate it should be good to go... however, questions to Remington Custom Shop go unanswered and they did not respond (3 times) to my requests for a quote... email, phone message and direct conversation with someone who was going to get a gunsmith to phone me back... no one did.  Obviously, they don't need/want the work.  The gunsmith I'm going to is rated as the best in this area and has all the required equipment.  He said we would take detailed measurements before going ahead, but he believes it is a straightforward rechamber.  However, I could be taking a great shooting rifle and turning it into a moderate to poor shooting rifle to gain about 100fps.  
I'm not afraid to take the Ruger #1 Lott and the R700 WinMag as "back up".  

It is a decision I have to make by Wednesday...  I know... I should just get a bolt action rifle in .458 Lott... Then I would have single shot and repeater Lott rifles and single shot and repeater WinMags... matching sets, so to speak.  
But then, the real temptation is... why not just get a .460 Weatherby???  I probably really need a whale gun...
If I were to go the purchase route, it won't be a CZ... I won't ever purchase another CZ...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 06:08
Not a difficult conversion at all, and doesn’t require any abnormal level of expertise. Any gunsmith that can chamber a barrel can do it. .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott share the same .375 H&H parent case, so both have .532” rim dia. The only difference is the Lott has .3” longer case. You merely run a .458 Lott chamber reamer into the existing chamber and lengthen it. 

Where you might run into a bit of a problem, depending on your specific load, is mag box length. The Lott has .3” longer COAL, so you will be crowding your mag box. I don’t know offhand, but I believe the Rem LA mag box interior is something like 3.65”, which would give you around .05” clearance. The max SAAMI length of the Lott is 3.6”, so you should have enough room as long as ammo used doesn’t exceed that length. If you’re concerned, you could always replace the Rem mag box with a Wyatts extended box, which gives you another .150” or so.

If the rifle shoots well, I think I’d just leave it alone, however. But that’s me. If .458 Win Mag won’t get the job done, .458 Lott isn’t magically gonna come to the rescue. Unless the justification for the rechamber is just for ammo commonality reasons. 


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:30
The magazine accepts Lott ammo with no problem.  It appears the most common difficulty is action length... the .458 WinMag action is "normally" based on 30-06 action... the .458 Lott requires a "true magnum" action to prevent any cycling issues.  I've cycled .375 H&H easily (it's cartridge case is the full 2.85 inch...3.6 OAL, Lott is 2.80.. 3.6 OAL, .458 WinMag is 2.50...3.34 OAL) so believe the action is sufficient.  However, in six months of trying to contact the Remington Custom Shop who built the thing, I've not been able to gat "THE" gunsmith I need to talk to to confirm.  
I do have rechambering reservations... simply because the final product is entirely dependent on the gunsmith and machinery used to perform the task.  
The .458 WinMag case capacity is 94 grains H20 while the Lott is 110.  The Lott gives me some flexibility in loading for Cape Buffalo... I'd like to be able to push a 510 grain projectile with SD of .350+ at near 2400 FPS.  Gives a ME of around 6500 ft-lb and momentum of about 175 lb-fps.  Yes, I'm aware that ME is more marketing than practical application.. especially in creatures like Cape Buffalo.. but it is a "nice to know".  Bullet design and momentum will be key (with shot placement of course).
I want the advantage the Lott offers.  Still have reservations about the rechambering.  Every 10 minutes or so I change my mind.  I'll finally decide after discussing with the gunsmith.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:32
I wouldn't change a boomer that shot that well, either. The .458 is plenty. If not, for the countless mbogo that have fallen to the .458 for 60 some years, get up you're not dead.



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Doug


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:39
I'd just buy the 460 weatherby and keep what you got.  Then you get one more gun out of it.   


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:43
I shot a .460 MarkV, awesome. It had factory porting and had less felt recoil than the non ported. 378 MarkV we had.

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Doug


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:58
I have the Champlin .378 Weatherby Magnum... guess a .460 to "round it out" wouldn't be out of the question.  Everything I read about it says it is "unnecessary"... which makes me even more interested.

Thank you for the suggestions.  Still thinking... It does make me pause to put a cutting tool to a firearm that is as accurate as I could hope for...



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 12:50
Very Interesting….!,.
 
 


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P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 14:33
Is that your way of saying I shouldn't rechamber it???

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:23
Which caliber has better availability of ammo in Africa?


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:31
Well, the WinMag... most popular caliber in Africa.  However... a .458 Lott will shoot .458 WinMag with no loss in accuracy (overall, this is true... there are exceptions).  A WinMag will not shoot Lott ammo.
.460 Weatherby Mag ammo is hard to find, especially in Africa... but it IS a "whale rifle"...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:44
I read not long ago that "A Cape Buffalo will stand and look you in the eye like you owe him a LOT of money... and he's there to collect".  
A whale gun might be useful...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 19:26
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

However... a .458 Lott will shoot .458 WinMag with no loss in accuracy (overall, this is true... there are exceptions). 

Yes, .458 Lott will shoot .458 Win Mag. "With no loss in accuracy?" I highly doubt that. Having .3"+ bullet jump to the lands is never a recipe for accuracy. You might find a specific rifle that does it without seeing a fall-off in precision, but that would be the exception. 


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 19:48
My Lott does it... general commentary from Lott owners is that there is "insignificant detriment to accuracy"... general, but not all, true...
However, significant firing of WinMag ammo in the Lott causes significant decrease in barrel life, so when degradation starts, it is rapid.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 21:12
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Is that your way of saying I shouldn't rechamber it???

Correct, buy a 458LOTT and have that 458WM for a back up. I'm sure they both would play nice side by side on a hunt...wink wink ..Bucky


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P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/15/2019 at 21:27
Yeah, but the .460 Weatherby is a siren... not sure I can resist the call... the song is sweet...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/16/2019 at 08:35
I wouldn’t bank on there being no loss in accuracy (shooting Win Mag in a Lott chamber) as a factor in the “pro” column affecting your decision, Dan. Anytime you have excess freebore before the lands, it gives the bullet a chance to become skewed, with its center of rotation not on the same axis as the bore centerline. This is never good for accuracy. You might see no degradation in accuracy in a given rifle because there’s always some unexplainable voodoo involved with a given rifle/ammo combination. There’s a reason that shooters loading for ultimate precision always adjust seating depth to get the bullet close to or touching the lands. It ensures the bullet starts out concentric with the bore before being captured by the lands. There’s a loose fit between bullet and chamber throat. There has to be else you couldn’t chamber and extract a live round. A small amount of jump to the lands often doesn’t give the bullet a chance to skew, but .3” is a long jump!

Just saying, don’t bank on that working out well as part of your decision-making process. With any firearm that will fire a shorter, similar dimensioned cartridge than what it’s chambered for, doing so always involves undesirable compromises. Yeah, you can do it, but really...why? The only exception to this is firing a conventional cartridge in an Ackley Improved version of the parent case, because the headspace length and bullet position relative to the lands remains the same.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/16/2019 at 14:35
I met with the gunsmith, talked with him at length about what I wanted... I decided to go ahead and rechamber to .458 Lott.  
The fact that it will shoot .458 WinMag does not play into the equation at all, except the fact that if something should happen to my Lott ammo, WinMag is always available in SA.  
My Ruger #1 has very similar accuracy and precision with either ammo, but I don't shoot much WinMag ammo in it... only did it to test it out.  I do have to rezero with a change from Lott to WinMag and vice versa.  I was surprised a bit, but pleased with the results.  
I have a Ruger #1 in .458 WinMag, so unless I don't have any Lott ammo, there is no need to shoot WinMag through it.  Unless something totally unexpected happens, I have no intention of ever shooting WinMag ammo through the rechambered rifle... except to discover how it shoots with it (I need to know how it will perform before/in case I have to do it).  



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/17/2019 at 08:15
oh geez. Sticking with a squirrel gun when you could have got a 460. How 😢 

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/17/2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

oh geez. Sticking with a squirrel gun when you could have got a 460. How 😢 
But is a BIG squirrel gun.  The .460 is not off the table, I just decided it is out of my "reach" until I pay off the house.  First priority...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: October/17/2019 at 14:02
You probably don't need a Lott... If the gun shoots well in 458WM and you can shoot it well, I would suggest leaving it alone...

Or, buy a purpose built Lott...

Scrummy


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/17/2019 at 21:48
It's already done.  I left it there for rechambering.  I see no downside.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 04:44
Good on you Dan and good shooting!

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God save the Empire!


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 08:17
Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Good on you Dan and good shooting!

Thank you, sir.  I believe it is a good move... If it doesn't turn out well, I'll just have to rebarrel... which is still way less than purchasing a .460 Weatherby at this time.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 08:29
Absolutely Dan, gotta save some bucks for fine whisky and cigars.............oh, and some new tools for Lori.

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God save the Empire!


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 08:45
She is already designing the storage locations(for optimum accessibility) in the new shop I'm on the hook for...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 10:58
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

It's already done.  I left it there for rechambering.  I see no downside.


Then I hope it works out well for you buddy!


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 12:15
Thank you.  I, too, hope it works out well!!!  However, the smith made me a promise that made rechamber a very desirable approach.  He does not do a high volume in rechambers... only averages about 1 a day, but has done as many as 72 in a month and last 3 months has done an average of 60 per month... I believe I was fortunate to find him.  

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 12:46
You shouldn't have any issues at all, Dan. It's a very straightforward reamer job, just lengthening the existing chamber. The case taper is the same between .458 Lott and .458 Win mag, and there is no case shoulder; the rounds for both headspace solely on the belt. With a floating reamer holder, it basically self-pilots, so it's hard to screw up. If it takes 10 minutes from start to completion, I'd be very surprised. It takes longer to setup the job than to do the actual work. 

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 14:46
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

You shouldn't have any issues at all, Dan. It's a very straightforward reamer job, just lengthening the existing chamber. The case taper is the same between .458 Lott and .458 Win mag, and there is no case shoulder; the rounds for both headspace solely on the belt. With a floating reamer holder, it basically self-pilots, so it's hard to screw up. If it takes 10 minutes from start to completion, I'd be very surprised. It takes longer to setup the job than to do the actual work. 

That's what he said.  
When a rifle shoots really well, there is always some consternation about doing anything to it that might impact that.  I believe this is a good choice, though.



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 15:43
Regarding the .460 Weatherby Magnum, I thought you might find this interesting.
Colonel Charles Askins wrote about shooting cape buffalo with this rifle in the December 1989 issue of Guns magazine:

"Thirty years ago I journeyed off to Uganda....I had with me Mike Hissey, my favorite hunter, and in my hands I had the .460 Weatherby Magnum.....  In those days you could shoot six buffalo and that is what Hissey and I set out to do.

We'd find a herd of bovines and then we'd get down on hands and knees and approach through the tall grass until we were within 40 yards of the old herd bull.  I would spank him through the shoulders with 500 grains of the hottest lead.  This went on until we'd accounted for the six bulls we were allotted.  Not in one case did I kill a buffalo with one shot.  Invariably my bull, though plunked through the shoulders at 40 yards, would get up and try to run away.... Not a single bull escaped, but in no case did a single round from the .460 suffice to anchor the game.

This is not intended to disparage the .460, the world's most powerful cartridge; it is simply mentioned to point up the fact that old Syncerus caffir is a really tough cookie!"

Good hunting!       


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 16:52
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/double-rifles/heym-500-ne-model-88-ph-double-rifle-rh.cfm?gun_id=101300174 - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/double-rifles/heym-500-ne-model-88-ph-double-rifle-rh.cfm?gun_id=101300174

500 NE   Double Rifle?

The time it takes to cycle the bolt can cost your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhU76kUGMM - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhU76kUGMM


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 19:11
Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

Regarding the .460 Weatherby Magnum, I thought you might find this interesting.
Colonel Charles Askins wrote about shooting cape buffalo with this rifle in the December 1989 issue of Guns magazine:

"Thirty years ago I jouneyed off to Uganda....I had with me Mike Hissey, my favorite hunter, and in my hands I had the .460 Weatherby Magnum.....  In those days you could shoot six buffalo and that is what Hissey and I set out to do.

We'd find a herd oof bovines and then we'd get down on hands and knees and approach through the tall grass until we were within 40 yards of the old herd bull.  I would spank him through the shoulders with 500 grains of the hottest lead.  This went on until we'd accounted for the six bulls we were allotted.  Not in one case did I kill a buffalo with one shot.  Invariably my bull, though plunked through the shoulders at 40 yards, would get up and try to run away.... Not a single bull escaped, but in no case did a single round from the .460 suffice to anchor the game.

This is not intended to disparage the .460, the world's most powerful cartridge; it is simply mentioned to point up the fact that old Syncerus caffir is a really tough cookie!"

Good hunting!       
Thank you for the great story.  I know the resilience of the Cape Buffalo and have great respect for that creature.  Ha... maybe the moral of the story is "never take a whale gun on a Cape Buffalo hunt..." I might use that...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2019 at 19:20
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/double-rifles/heym-500-ne-model-88-ph-double-rifle-rh.cfm?gun_id=101300174 - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/double-rifles/heym-500-ne-model-88-ph-double-rifle-rh.cfm?gun_id=101300174

500 NE   Double Rifle?

The time it takes to cycle the bolt can cost your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhU76kUGMM - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhU76kUGMM

I've always wanted a double rifle... can't justify the price to myself.  

I would not be hunting a lion, but that guy did not seem really familiar with his hardware.  However... chicks dig scars, pain heals... glory lasts forever...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: November/01/2019 at 18:06
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I wouldn’t bank on there being no loss in accuracy (shooting Win Mag in a Lott chamber) as a factor in the “pro” column affecting your decision, Dan. Anytime you have excess freebore before the lands, it gives the bullet a chance to become skewed, with its center of rotation not on the same axis as the bore centerline. This is never good for accuracy. You might see no degradation in accuracy in a given rifle because there’s always some unexplainable voodoo involved with a given rifle/ammo combination. There’s a reason that shooters loading for ultimate precision always adjust seating depth to get the bullet close to or touching the lands. It ensures the bullet starts out concentric with the bore before being captured by the lands. There’s a loose fit between bullet and chamber throat. There has to be else you couldn’t chamber and extract a live round. A small amount of jump to the lands often doesn’t give the bullet a chance to skew, but .3” is a long jump!

Just saying, don’t bank on that working out well as part of your decision-making process. With any firearm that will fire a shorter, similar dimensioned cartridge than what it’s chambered for, doing so always involves undesirable compromises. Yeah, you can do it, but really...why? The only exception to this is firing a conventional cartridge in an Ackley Improved version of the parent case, because the headspace length and bullet position relative to the lands remains the same.

I re-read an article written in 1984 for Handloader's Digest (Tenth Edition) by Jack Lott discussing his buffalo hunt that resulted in his decision to build the .458 Lott.  It details his testing and testing done by several world-renowned gunsmiths and professional hunters.  
The buffalo he shot first at 40 yards with a soft point 500 grain bullet, said he held the shot too long and just as the fired the buffalo spun left and took the bullet in the ribs and into the paunch.  The second was a steel jacketed solid 500 grain that hit the shoulder, but hit bone and deflected.  By then the bull was on him from behind and knocked the rifle from his hands and he was tossed three times and hit him with the central horn boss (which probably saved his life).  The PH fired seven rounds of 300 grain .375 H&H with excellent precision into the bull, but it did not go down.  He grabbed Lott's rifle, checked to see it was loaded and fired a soft nose into the bull's neck.  No joy.  He cycled the last round, jacketed solid, and fired into the buffalo's brain box, putting him down.  11 rounds from the two best rated "dangerous game rifles" on the continent.  After he recovered from his injuries, Lott started work on the .458 Large which became the .458 Lott.  Long story short, over about 10 months he and a couple of high caliber gunsmiths built and tested 10 .458 Lott rifles (rechambered from .458 WinMag).  He specifically designed the .458 Lott to enable accurate shooting of the .458 WinMag ammo.  Below are two sets of his original test targets:

The top target is .458 WinMag, the bottom .458 Lott.


The left target is from .458 Lott, the right .458 WinMag

With 10 rifles, several different gunsmiths and PH's, two of the rifles presented 25% larger groupings with the WinMag ammo than with the Lott ammo.  8 of 10, 80% showed groupings of same size or less with Win Mag ammo over Lott ammo.  The "beauty" of the Lott is that it can easily be loaded to what the buffalo hunters consider "the magic numbers" of 500 grain bullet pushing 2350 fps at "safe" pressures.   One of Jack Lott's test rifles, and his stated favorite, was Ruger #1 .458 WinMag rechambered to .458 Lott (which he rechambered with a hand reamer). 
Weatherby has always built its rifles with a long free space as a crucial factor in the design.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living



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