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Really sad

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Firearms
Forum Description: All makes, models and uses
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=45155
Printed Date: November/19/2018 at 01:35


Topic: Really sad
Posted By: Lockjaw
Subject: Really sad
Date Posted: October/10/2018 at 15:50
Bought a hogue bed block stock for my 700 AAC-SD. Still has the Minox ZX5 scope. Adjusted trigger a little lighter. Went to the hunting club range. 

This time, shooting Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X 178 gr. Grouping was about 1.2 in at 100 yards.

Then check the kids Savage Axis 243, with a top of the line Nikon Buckmaster scope. Shooting Hornady American Whitetail 100 gr ammo. Grouping was about .6 in at 100 yards. 

I just do not get it. That 700 doesn't like anything I feed it. 

I seem to have gotten a bad batch of CCI primers too. So when I tried shooting the Berger Classic hunters with 4064, I couldn't get them to consistently. So.... I am done with CCI. I need to pull them down and replace primers and reload. I got around 1 in with 43 grains I think. And the crappy pillar stock. 

Maybe a bed job will help....... 





Replies:
Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: October/10/2018 at 16:03
I'd think that with match ammo you should get better than 1" at 100yds but some guns won't do that.  Look for obvious signs of issues,  how's the crown look?  bore look damaged?  check all the standard culprits,  loose mounts/rings. Action screws torque correctly? try different weights with the ammo too. 

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: October/10/2018 at 19:04
Remington.  Figures.

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: October/10/2018 at 19:11
That stock has mucho flex.

Have you tried factory ammo?

Do you load long or short?

1” is what I expect from factory, else disappointment is all but assured.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/10/2018 at 19:40
Imo sell the gun get a tikka ctr, problem solved. You have spent way to much time on that stuborn gun.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/11/2018 at 11:27
I looked at the Tikka, but didn't like the magazine deal. What I really want, and cannot find, is a laminated stock, that is traditional looking, that deals with the heavy profile barrel. 

That's why I ended up with the Hogue with the bed block. I got it on a deal. I have a Boyd's At One also, but just dont' know about it yet. It isn't as easy on the shoulder as the hogue, and they want almost as much in shipping to send me a recoil pad as the paid itself costs. 

I may rebarrel or send off for accurizing after deer season is over. 




Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/11/2018 at 11:32
Oh and yes, I have tried alot of different factory ammo. In the original stock. It would string it. 

Some handloads would show promise and then I would get a flier. The Berger reloads were right around an inch. It liked Nosler BT's too, in 168. 

I shot some Federal Match ammo, and it was inchish or so. Nothing to write home about. 

I really like the gun, I can shoot it all day off the bench without getting sore. It's not that heavy consindering the barrel profile. The trigger isn't my favorite, but its not terrible now that I adjusted it a little lighter. 

So this was the first outing with the Bed Block Hogue instead of the pillar bed one. 


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/11/2018 at 12:14
First things first... are you certain the Minox scope holds zero? Have you used it on another rifle with known precision before? If not, I would mount a scope that has proven to maintain zero currently on another rifle that shoots well and see if your groups tighten up as a result. 

Changing to different stocks won't do a single thing for you in improving group sizes, provided a given stock isn't so ergonomically bad that it interferes with your shooting or bedding is stressing the action or barrel, causing inconsistencies. If you have sound bedding, you're good to go regardless of stock design.

If you're certain the scope or bedding isn't the culprit, and all screws are tight on action and scope mounts, check the following:

- make sure your mag box is assembled correctly into the recess under the receiver and that it isn't binding against the receiver and stock.

- make sure your forward-most mount screw isn't binding against your barrel thread.

- clean your barrel thoroughly to ensure you don't have copper fouling.

- check to make sure both locking lugs are making even contact in the lug abutments of the action. You can check this by marking the rear of the bolt locking lugs with ink or similar, work the bolt a few times, and see if ink gets rubbed off both lugs to the same degree. 

1.2" groups at 100 yards isn't too bad for a factory rifle, by the way. If you shoot a lot of factory rifles, you soon realize that either everyone but you has been exceedingly lucky in factory rifle roulette or a high % of people talking about factory rifle precision on the internet is lying.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Garzaci
Date Posted: October/11/2018 at 23:55
I agree with everything but cleaning the barrel of copper fouling. There is only 2 options here to get consistent shots. 1. clean the barrel of all copper and do it after every shot. 2. Allow the barrel to reach copper equilibrium by not removing copper from the barrel.

Every shot deposits copper into the barrel. The copper continues to fill in any imperfections until they no longer exist an now you are at copper equilibrium. From there on, you are pushing out copper as new copper is being laid with each shot. This coating of copper provides a consistent barrel allowing repeat shots under the same conditions.

If you remove the copper from the barrel, then your barrel changes every shot. Every shot will follow a slightly different path through the barrel until you reach copper equilibrium again.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 00:40
I don’t completely agree with that. I had a factory 700 vs barrel in .308. It would take 4 rounds to settle down after a complete copper removal. Then it was a 1/2 moa gun for 30 to 35 rounds then it would start to open up. The longer i went the worse it got. I would clean copper and then repeat the process. I put over 4000 rounds down that barrel and it stayed pretty consistant to that.

Then i bought a hand lapped lilja barrel. I followed dan’s break in procedure and with that barrel shot 1 thru 400 was all perfect. It didn’t appear to copper fowl at all. So i would just clean it every 300ish rounds as it made me feel good.

Another new .308 with a Obermyer barrel. Same thing, it doesn’t copper foul.

Tikka 6.5 creed ctr. It would start to degrade accuracy around 80 rounds. Clean the copper out 2 shots to settle down and it was good for 80 rounds. Just put a Hardy carbon fiber barrel on it. During moderate break in it copper fouled a tiny hit. But after 15 rounds it was gone. Shot 100 rounds with no cleaning and then cleaned, no fouling seen on the patches.

No two barrels will be the same. But most factory barrels are going to copper foul worse. A good hand lapped custom barrel that has been chambered by a good smith and machine in my experience fould little to none.

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 00:48
How about a barrett fieldcraft. They are $1700ish. They will be near perfect right out of the gate. All the time and money you have spent on that one is probably getting close to the field craft.

On the ctr magazine system. I freaking love it. Its a double stack 10 round mag so its half the length of the AI style mags. The mag release is better than most the after market bottom metals out there. IMO it is an excellent system.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 03:46
A buddy of mine had a Hogue stock on his heavy barrelled .308 700. Would not shoot. Changed stocks, different rifle

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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 09:52
Originally posted by Garzaci Garzaci wrote:

I agree with everything but cleaning the barrel of copper fouling. There is only 2 options here to get consistent shots. 1. clean the barrel of all copper and do it after every shot. 2. Allow the barrel to reach copper equilibrium by not removing copper from the barrel.

Every shot deposits copper into the barrel. The copper continues to fill in any imperfections until they no longer exist an now you are at copper equilibrium. From there on, you are pushing out copper as new copper is being laid with each shot. This coating of copper provides a consistent barrel allowing repeat shots under the same conditions.

If you remove the copper from the barrel, then your barrel changes every shot. Every shot will follow a slightly different path through the barrel until you reach copper equilibrium again.

I think you're partially correct. Yes, some copper fouling isn't necessarily a bad thing, and reaching a sort of "fouling equilibrium" does help with consistent accuracy. However, not all barrels receive fouling to the same degree/rate, not all fouling is from copper (part of it is powder fouling), and many barrels with inconsistent tool marks in the bore get progressively worse to the point that eventually, precision suffers and the fouling must be removed.

With a good, smooth barrel having a uniform, lapped bore finish as is found in custom barrels, you can reach this equilibrium where copper seemingly doesn't continue to build past a certain point. For the most part, I don't clean my custom barrels very often, and I might go a couple 100 shots between cleanings with no noticeable effects on achievable average group sizes. I've had quite a few custom barrels that don't pick up much fouling, and clean patches come out of the barrel after only a couple solvent passes. On a rough factory barrel with inconsistent tool marks, especially if these tool marks are perpendicular to the bore center line, you can have excessive copper buildup that only gets worse and hinders precision. I've seen many occasions where a factory rifle starts shooting like crap and a thorough cleaning with a good solvent returns it to laying down respectable groups again.

I always fire a few fouling shots after cleaning before I test a rifle's grouping ability, regardless of whether it has a custom barrel or mass-produced non-lapped factory OEM barrel. In my experience, it only takes a couple "fouler" shots before a good barrel reaches its ideal consistency again, so no big deal.




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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 10:06
Originally posted by Scrumbag Scrumbag wrote:

A buddy of mine had a Hogue stock on his heavy barrelled .308 700. Would not shoot. Changed stocks, different rifle

That was likely due to either unsound bedding stressing the action or the forend flexing and applying inconsistent pressure on the barrel. If 2 different stocks are both equally well-bedded to create a sound, stress-free foundation for the barreled action, then the stock has no influence on the rifle's ability to shoot, as long as the stock design isn't an impediment to the shooter's ability to have consistent shot to shot form.

That being said, I've never been a fan of Hogue rifle stocks.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: JGRaider
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 11:00
Dyna Bore Coat can solve lots of fouling issues.  I use it in every barrel I have, custom or not.   Bedding a rifle is never a bad idea.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 11:38
The Minox scope is a new one, a warranty replacement for my ZA5. This one is a 30mm model in talley rings. I took it to a local gun store to have it properly mounted. Best I can tell when I have been shooting it, the POI moves exactly where I want it by counting the clicks when I adjust it, so I feel pretty comfortable the scope is good. Its a ZX5. Shipped from Germany to me. 

I did get rid of the crappy hogue stock. It did flex. I use an Allen Bag to shoot the gun off a rest, so it is maybe 12 inches long, so it supports that much of the stock. The gun sits down in it. 

I did lap the lugs before I sent the gun to Remington. What I want to do is bed the recoil lug. I feel good about the Hogue stock with the aluminum bedding block. I have another 700 with same stock, and its a shooter. Of course it shot good with the factory synthetic stock. 

Remington said they chamfered my barrel. I will try cleaning it and see what happens. I know I cleaned it before I sent it to them. 

One thing i did notice when I put rifle in the new stock is the rubber at the end contacted the barrel. I sanded it to make clearance, I am going to double check that again. 

Everything is tight. I tighten front action screw snug and then to the same with the back, and then tighten front, then back. I check the bolt for free movement. 

What I have read is the gun has "tactical rifling" which is probably nothing different than regular, but it should be better with heavier bullet weights. It shot 150 Federal Premium partitions at around an inch at 100. The Berger reloads that I could get to shoot shot about the same. 

I think it shot BT's ok too. I can't remember, I need to see if I can find the old targets, I try to keep them all for reference. 

It just frustrates me that I have basically a cheap savage that I had 180 dollars in, added a 100 dollar scope, rifleman rings and a 1 piece weaver base, shooting just regular hunting ammo, and its sub moa with the crappy trigger. 

The thing I don't  like about the savage is it doesn't eject shells that great. Otherwise I think I would be inclined to buy one of those, cut a couple inches off the barrel, drop it in a better stock, add a trigger and go. 



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/12/2018 at 13:01
I have asked this before on another one of your posts but i don’t recall you commenting on it. How are you cleaning? What are you cleaning with? You need a carbon fouling remover and an ammonia based copper remover. Two seperate steps in mosy cases. I can almost guarantee a factory remington barrel is going to copper foul like crazy and if you don’t clean all that crap out its not going to shoot really well

Then 1.2 moa as has been said isnt that bad for a cheap factory rifle. Just because it says tactical don’t put to much head that it means anything except marketing.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/15/2018 at 08:59
I got some copper solvent from the local gun store, and it does a very good job of getting the copper out. I forget what it is called. I went in and asked specifically for something to get rid of copper. I think it is a military grade. 

So I run a wet patch down the barrel and then will go down with a brush, and then back with more patches until I don't see blue. Usually the powder residue is brown or black. 

I had one of my rifles I cleaned with it, where you could see visible copper streaking in the barrel, I tihnk it was my older 700 in 270, that shot sub MOA as it was, and it cleaned that right out. 

I uased to load my reloads with a powder thrower. i'd adjust it to get the charge I wanted, and then load right? Well I even have gotten down to weighing each load on a digital scale. I use the same brass and primer for each. And that hasn't tightened up anything. 

It is so weird. I can get a certain set up to shoot some shots really very well, and then there is always a flier. 

I went back and looked at my target for the precision hunter ammo. The first 3 shots were really very close. Then when I adjusted the windage to move it to center, I got 1.2 MOA. 

I don't have any reason to suspect the scope, it has shot inconsistently with 2 different scopes. 

I would say it was just me, except I can get sub MOA out of my older 270, I got it from the kids savage, I have gotten it with my Ruger M77 with a 16.5 barrel. The latter two with stock trigger pulls. 

I use the same bag set up every time. 

I did load up some fresh Berger 168 classic hunters with IMR 4064, in the charge weight that the Federal Premium 168 SMK load is. Winchester primers, all PMC brass. 

I decapped and resized them, and then polish before I loaded. I have noticed if I don't polish them sometimes I get some case lube inside the case, which means it doesn't go bang. That is the source of my misfires it seems. So I did more research on that. 

I personally think the action needs accurizing. I am going to see if the gun shop across the street from me can do that. 




Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: October/15/2018 at 14:59
No to the Tikka, huh? I would imagine after using it a bunch it wouldn't matter what it was. 

Fouling lays up in layers. You need to alternate copper and carbon solvents to strip a bore clean.

Inconsistent grouping can be a symptom of uneven bedding, loose parts or a flexible stock. These are cheap rifle issues. Remingtons are the original cheap rifle. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/15/2018 at 15:23
Beware of using bronze cleaning brushes with copper killer slovents. They will give u a false reading of copper. You never get it out.

If i scrub with a brush its a synthetic brush. I typically just mop the bore really good with a bore mop and let a soak in for a few then push patches through until they are dry then rewet with mop and repeat until copper is done.

The comment above about layers is hood as that happens too. Always remember more bore have been ruined by cleaning than by shooting. So just clean smart and becareful and it should help

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/15/2018 at 15:27
Having the action accuruzed isnt going to fix a crappy barrel. If u are going to start spending money on things like that then just teplace the barrel. 90% of the accuracy will be the barrel. The rest will be all the little things that may or may not even matter based upon your shooting and loading skills.

You could have someone like mcgowen put a new barrel on your gun for $500 or less and it would likely be a tack driver.

Just something to consider.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/15/2018 at 16:16
More i think about this the more i think you should start from scratch. Buy some federal gold medal match 168 grain. This is known good ammo. Clean you barrel so all copper and carbon is gone. Torque your stock, mounts and rings properly. Shoot 4 or 5 fowler shots. Adjust scope just so you are on target. Then shoot multiple 5 shot groups. But do it in groupls of 5. So have 5 points of aim on your target. Shoot once at each target. Let barrel cool then ahoot 5 more at each poi and so on til you shoot 25 rounds.

Don’t adjust anything during this test. Make sure you call all your shots, make sure you know exaclty where your crosshairs was when the trigger breaks. Make sure you are holdinf the rifle the same each time, cheek weld is the same, grip is the same, eye placement the same, magnification the same, rest is the same, trigger pull is the same, etc etc. Once you get a good base line then 1 thing at a time start to make changes and go from there.

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 07:14
The solvent I got was G96 and it says its military grade and removes lead, copper and powder residue. I have some Hoppe's solvent too. 

I cleaned it again last night. With both. I have a nylon brush, so I kept running it and then patches down until it was clean. 

I have some of that Federal Ammo, I shot it before, it shot it ok. Remington said they got .8 inch with their match ammo when the test fired it after they did some work on it. They redid the crown and chamfered the barrel. I added a short muzzle brake to protect the crown. 

I think the Hogue stock with the full aluminum bed block is solid. I have another 700 in one, and it shoots really good. Probably .5 moa. That is what is so aggravating with this one. I was expecting similar results. What I like about it is the gun is easy to shoot. I can shoot a lot of rounds and not get sore. 

I use an Allen filled bench shooters  bag. So if i get a good or a bad group, the bag never changes. 

I think bedding the recoil lug would be good. But if I changed out the barrel, then maybe I need to hold off on that. 

I don't like the trigger all that much, but lightening the pull makes it better. 




Posted By: tejas
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 09:09
1 1/4” groups in a factory Remington with factory ammo aren’t bad. To turn it into a sub moa rifle may cost you a LOT. Couple of cheap and easy things to check. Where are you putting your sandbag? Don’t put it under the fore end for obvious reasons. I use two bags. One under the action just in front of the trigger guard and one is one somewhere in the rear part of the buttstock so it doesn’t effect my position and therefore my cheek weld.

Since you reload, you should be able to find something that rifle likes. Start with good brass. What you said about using a digital scale bothers me a little. I use a mechanical scale and I weigh every powder charge every time for every rifle. Handguns, I weigh every 5th. Start with a minimum load and build 5 “foulers” Shoot these first. Lots of factory barrels shoot better when they aren’t cold and clean. Build your other loads in groups of five each from minimum to maximum charge weights skipping 3/10 of a grain in between each. Don’t fire them in order. Set up one target for each load and shoot them randomly at the corresponding target. That should give you a starting point. Seating depth makes a big difference. Someone else mentioned that but I don’t think you responded. Soot the bullet and find your depth. You can google it. .020 jump is a good starting point. Case lube...don’t reload anything with case lube still on the brass, tumble it.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 09:29
I had a Rem700 Varminter. I could only get it up to 1 inch grouping...no matter what.
I then had the barrel air gauged. The internal hole diameter of the barrel was oversized and also inconsistantly sized. In other words it was bigger and smaller along the barrel. I am talking about the long hole where the bullet passes in the middle of the barrel. It was a 308 caliber.
Remington refunded me for the barrel and I fitted a custom barrel. It was a whole new ballgame with a 1/4 grouping out the block.
The barrel is just about everything in accuracy. (in my humble opinion.) 


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 09:35
My opinion...do not waste $$$$ on trying to find the magic. I put about a 2000 rounds through my Rem trying to "fix" what can't be fixed with loading 1/10th grain more and 1 thou seating variations and...
Take all that money and fit a proper barrel.
Or sell the rifle.
My new rifle with a custom barrel with no dope on loading just shoots clover leafs. All day long if I do my partEmbarrassed Yeah I just had to say that last bitBig smileTongue


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 10:02
I'm remember all the pain you went through with that Remy varmint rifle Wouter. You were faithful in trying to fix it even with all the hassle of you being located on the other side of the pond from Remington.



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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 10:55
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Dyna Bore Coat can solve lots of fouling issues.  I use it in every barrel I have, custom or not.   Bedding a rifle is never a bad idea.

Is Dyna Bore Coat still available? I've wanted to try it, but the last time I checked, it had been discontinued. 


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 11:17
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

How about a barrett fieldcraft. They are $1700ish. They will be near perfect right out of the gate. All the time and money you have spent on that one is probably getting close to the field craft.
 

I missed this on the first pass. This is an excellent suggestion too!

I have a Fieldcraft in 7-08, and it is an outstanding rifle in every respect! Fit and finish is great. It comes with a great trigger (Timney, designed specifically for that rifle). Barrel twists used for all chamberings were obviously decided by someone who has a clue. Bedding is perfect right out of the box, with each stock individually bedded to the actual barreled action it is mated to. They use longer than normal mag boxes so you can load longer high BC bullets out to the lands and still feed from the magazine. The stock they use is very high quality, carbon fiber construction made by AG Composites, and it is well finished with a "granite" looking speckled paint that is very durable. It is extremely lightweight, weighing about the same as a Kimber Montana of the same chambering. It has an extra mount screw hole in the front of the receiver, which allows you to use 2 different mount positions to adapt to different scope tube lengths and eye relief positions. The bolt handle is held in place by an ingenious slot and set screw retention method, which is very strong, yet allows you to change bolt handles should you wish to do so later (assuming different handles are available...IDK). Every review I've read from those who own one has had very good accuracy results, and mine will shoot as well, delivering consistent sub-MOA groups despite the pencil weight barrel profile. On top of all that, Barrett has a great customer service reputation, so in the rare chance you get a lemon, they will take care of you.

Sometimes it's just best to quit beating your head against the wall, putting lots of time, effort, and $ into trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Unless the rifle has sentimental value to you, it's just a factory rifle, nothing special. I say punt.

If you've repeatedly tried different things and spent a lot of money trying to get it to shoot and it still doesn't meet your expectations, cut your losses, sell it, and buy something else. It will cost you in the neighborhood of $500 - $700 to rebarrel it, should you choose that route (cost of the barrel blank plus labor to chamber, thread, cut to length, crown, and finish). Add that to the two stocks you've already bought, not to mention the time and frustration you've endured... when all is said and done, no matter how much you spend on it, you still have a Remington 700, so you will never recoup anywhere close to the cost you have in it should you decide to sell.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 11:47
The rifle was a gift, so... probably not going to sell it. I'd rebarrel it though. I like the carbon fiber one that is out there. 

I will work on a hand load it likes. 

I need to stress this is a hunting rifle. I like it because its fairly compact, but the heavy barrel lets me shoot lots of ammo if I want to. And I enjoy that. It's not to heavy that I wouldn't want to carry it around, but its not to light that it beats me up. My Ruger Hawkeye 308 compact weighs 5.75 pounds without scope. It has a solid rubber butt pad. It is not fun to shoot a bunch of ammo out of it, but it sure is handy in the woods. Or a shooting house. 

And I can suppress it. 

The bag i use the rifle sits down in. So its from the front of the trigger guard forward. I would like a bag for the back, and may try that. When I let the gunsmith at the store across the street shoot it, that is what he uses, 2 bags. He got 1.5 MOA, so its better than it was. He had 5 different kinds of ammo. 




Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 11:55
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Dyna Bore Coat can solve lots of fouling issues.  I use it in every barrel I have, custom or not.   Bedding a rifle is never a bad idea.

Is Dyna Bore Coat still available? I've wanted to try it, but the last time I checked, it had been discontinued. 

Midway has it. 


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 12:58
Ah, so they do. Thanks! I saw the “discontinued” statement at Brownells and another site and didn’t search further. Evidently it’s the “kit” with the bottle of alcohol they once offered that was discontinued, not the DBC itself.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 13:24
Getting the rifle to ride bags with the bore perpendicular to the target as possible is a huge part of consistently printing the smallest groups. Change in bag placement from shooting is a common cause of flyers.

The rifle should ride straight back with the crosshair rising perfectly vertically without hopping or twisting, the same way every shot. For hunting rifles, a butterfly bag up front and a rabbit ear with a hard bottom on the rear works the best that I've found. A lightweight hunting rig will print bug holes if it is capable.

Bulls Bags are butterfly bags, but others have copied them. Protektor Model is the standard for the rear. You can adjust elevation on the front by using two stacks of sandbags made from pants legs under the butterfly bag. If the stock has aggressive texturing, dryer sheets placed on the bag help the rifle slide.

Depending on your purpose, 1.5" isn't all that bad. Wasn't Weatherby a big deal for guaranteeing 1.5" 3 shot groups some years ago? 



Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 14:36
Weatherby guarantees 1moa with their ammo I believe. 

I don't think my bag thing is ideal. I think the back of the stock needs to be supported. However, that is the bag I use to shoot everything, so when I get a really tight group, or a really sloppy one, its all done the same way. 

I sent McGowan a message about a barrel. When I look at all their stuff, I just get a brain freeze. I told them I basically wanted a replacement barrel that was as close to the factory one as possible. 

What I find really interesting is I can go out to my hunting club, which is not idea, since I am shooting sort of down, and get a decent grouping, then go to a range, and its a little different. 

If I play around and get it down around 1 moa I will probably call it good with the factory barrel. It just bugs me that my old 700 shoots so darn well, as does this savage, and then I get a bull barrel 308 and its not like those two guns. 

I mean can I just get an Axis and have the barrel cut down 2 inches, drop a trigger in it, add a stock and call it good???? LOL... Maybe that is what I need to do. Although the savage action is longer. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 14:59
Buy a Tikka and no more issues.  Big smile  They are the best of the cheap rifles IMO. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 15:23
With few exceptions, mass production factory rifle accuracy is a crap shoot. Some will really shoot way above their pay grade, others are underachievers. If it doesn’t shoot, you can do all the little tweaks this far discussed and your efforts are futile if the barrel is subpar. Barrel quality has the most influence on precision of any other factor by far. Either you got a good barrel or you didn’t. If you did, you can tune it with the common accurizing tweaks and load development and get it to shoot. If you didn’t, it’s a money pit, and no amount of tweaking and no amount of money spent will correct the problem short of barrel replacement.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 15:52
McGown says send the barrel to them and they will duplicate it. 




Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/16/2018 at 16:02
Injust saw carbon fiber barrel in a post. :). Since i just got one, gotta say i like it a lot. I gained 4 inches of barrel and shed 1.5 lbs of weight.

It shoots really nice too. The barrel cost me $800ish then $450 to chamber, thread barrel and bed to action.

Did i meantion i really like it.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 04:56
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

With few exceptions, mass production factory rifle accuracy is a crap shoot. Some will really shoot way above their pay grade, others are underachievers. If it doesn’t shoot, you can do all the little tweaks this far discussed and your efforts are futile if the barrel is subpar. Barrel quality has the most influence on precision of any other factor by far. Either you got a good barrel or you didn’t. If you did, you can tune it with the common accurizing tweaks and load development and get it to shoot. If you didn’t, it’s a money pit, and no amount of tweaking and no amount of money spent will correct the problem short of barrel replacement.

Amen brother Amen Handshake


Posted By: tejas
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 09:57
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

How about a barrett fieldcraft. They are $1700ish. They will be near perfect right out of the gate. All the time and money you have spent on that one is probably getting close to the field craft.
 


I missed this on the first pass. This is an excellent suggestion too!

I have a Fieldcraft in 7-08, and it is an outstanding rifle in every respect! Fit and finish is great. It comes with a great trigger (Timney, designed specifically for that rifle). Barrel twists used for all chamberings were obviously decided by someone who has a clue. Bedding is perfect right out of the box, with each stock individually bedded to the actual barreled action it is mated to. They use longer than normal mag boxes so you can load longer high BC bullets out to the lands and still feed from the magazine. The stock they use is very high quality, carbon fiber construction made by AG Composites, and it is well finished with a "granite" looking speckled paint that is very durable. It is extremely lightweight, weighing about the same as a Kimber Montana of the same chambering. It has an extra mount screw hole in the front of the receiver, which allows you to use 2 different mount positions to adapt to different scope tube lengths and eye relief positions. The bolt handle is held in place by an ingenious slot and set screw retention method, which is very strong, yet allows you to change bolt handles should you wish to do so later (assuming different handles are available...IDK). Every review I've read from those who own one has had very good accuracy results, and mine will shoot as well, delivering consistent sub-MOA groups despite the pencil weight barrel profile. On top of all that, Barrett has a great customer service reputation, so in the rare chance you get a lemon, they will take care of you.

Sometimes it's just best to quit beating your head against the wall, putting lots of time, effort, and $ into trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Unless the rifle has sentimental value to you, it's just a factory rifle, nothing special. I say punt.

If you've repeatedly tried different things and spent a lot of money trying to get it to shoot and it still doesn't meet your expectations, cut your losses, sell it, and buy something else. It will cost you in the neighborhood of $500 - $700 to rebarrel it, should you choose that route (cost of the barrel blank plus labor to chamber, thread, cut to length, crown, and finish). Add that to the two stocks you've already bought, not to mention the time and frustration you've endured... when all is said and done, no matter how much you spend on it, you still have a Remington 700, so you will never recoup anywhere close to the cost you have in it should you decide to sell.





Don’t want to hijack the mans thread, so a quick question only. Is the barrel on your Barrett free floated? I read on they’re website that they aren’t. I’m wondering how they are getting such good accuracy from a light barrel that is bedded into the stock.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 10:28
They are full length bedded.  Just goes to show there is always more than one way to skin the cat. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 10:29
On the Weatherby, I meant like 20 years ago. Point being that we, none of us, had trouble doing what needed doing when top o' the line factory accuracy was 1.5" for 3 shots at 100 yards. If you're hitting what you really want to hit in the actual arena of use, groups on paper are irrelevant. 

Savage Axis actions won't run as long as a Remington 700 actions. The economy of the 700 comes from the featurelessness of the action and not doing machining work that can be done. Savage saves money by assembling an action from boxes of low-quality parts. A tuned 700 can be made into a quality, but overpriced and not very nice, long-running rig. A Savage will always be a pile of cheap, ill-wearing parts.

I think the advantage here for the 700 is that a quality .308 barrel will be a pleasure to use for longer than an Axis action.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 10:35
Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

On the Weatherby, I meant like 20 years ago. Point being that we, none of us, had trouble doing what needed doing when top o' the line factory accuracy was 1.5" for 3 shots at 100 yards. If you're hitting what you really want to hit in the actual arena of use, groups on paper are irrelevant. 

Savage Axis actions won't run as long as a Remington 700 actions. The economy of the 700 comes from the featurelessness of the action and not doing machining work that can be done. Savage saves money by assembling an action from boxes of low-quality parts. A tuned 700 can be made into a quality, but overpriced and not very nice, long-running rig. A Savage will always be a pile of cheap, ill-wearing parts.

I think the advantage here for the 700 is that a quality .308 barrel will be a pleasure to use for longer than an Axis action.


Your generalization of Savage being cheaply made may or may not be true.  But more importantly most hunting rifles will never see 1000 rounds in their lifetime.  So it is hard to see actual evidence of that generalization.  And really hard to prove the 700 is better off that type of data. 

Savage make good firearms vs the direct competition.  They are accurate (many believe one of the most accurate factory rifles), they are reliable, they have a decent trigger, they have a great cheap no frills bedding system that works, they make good factory barrels, and they have a broad selection to fit your budget.  Whats not to like. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 13:48
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

They are full length bedded.  Just goes to show there is always more than one way to skin the cat. 


Correctamundo! I normally float all barrels on my rifles because I’ve found it easier to get consistency that way. However, the Fieldcraft stock is very stiff, the FL bedding is nicely done, and I can’t quarrel with how it shoots, so as the saying goes, “the proof is in the pudding!”

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 15:01
Buy a Savage. Run it hard. You will see.

I agree the point is moot for most hunting use. The reputation Savage has earned is proof of adequate performance in limited use.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 15:05
Whats hard? How many rounds?

What failures are we talking about here? Complete action failure, extractor failure, ejector failure? Other types?

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 15:42
What I saw with the Savage Axis was it doesn't eject strongly, like a Remington or Ruger. Often the spent case ends up in the chamber. 

Well Lija has a standard Remington Varmit barrel they say is the same as the SPS barrel. It's 355 in stainless. I'd  have to get it threaded and painted before I had it installed. 

For fun I sent Remington an email asking them for spec measurements on the barrel, because I am still not pleased with the guns group size. Told them I wanted to rebarrel it. 

Told them 1.2 MOA with precision hunter, .5 MOA with Axis and AW ammo. LOL!




Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 16:04
Lilja makes a great barrel.  The one I owned was a one hole shooter. 

On ejection, that depends a lot upon the ejection design.  Some like a Remington have a spring that pushes on the ejector that is constant regardless of how fast you run it.  Others like a winchester, the faster you run it the father it will toss the brass.

I had a FN SPR that was lke the latter and it would take a heck of a run to get it to eject like my 700 actioned precision rifle.  But on the other hand, when not wanting to toss he brass far, it worked great.  You could just dump it all in a nice little pile right to the side of the rifle.  I really liked that as a reloader. 

I am not sure what system an axis uses (probably a spring), but you could always tune the spring a little tighter to fix that if it was an issue. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Son of Ed
Date Posted: October/17/2018 at 18:32
Get a SAKO



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Visit the Ed Show


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/18/2018 at 01:02
A while ago a father and son bought Savage Varminters. They came first and second in one of our toughest shooting disciplines. After that a lot of guys bought the same rifles. 
However, in the long run the guys with custom builds win the most consistently.




Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: October/18/2018 at 10:43
The Savage is lesser quality metal parts that fight each other. The easiest way to characterize it is a worn one gets like a well used Rubik's cube, sloppy and binding. I don't know why the ejection gets sketchy. 

Now, those are the factory ones I've used as stock or swapped barrels or bolt heads on. Supposedly there is a smith who can make them very smooth when new. I've never used a slicked up one. 


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/18/2018 at 11:04
Well I heard back from Remington, they said the rifle is shooting within spec. I am tempted to write back and say the Savage shoots within better spec..... LOL!!

But they did say the countour was varmit, so the lija barrel ought to be right. 

I went back and looked at my targets. I shot 8 shots with the ELD-X. First was to see where the gun was with the new stock. It was high left. I adjusted the elevation down where I wanted it. Shot again and was basically dead on, but still left. I adjusted windage and shot it 3 more times. That group, while still left, was around .8 inches. Then I adjusted to center it, and got 1.2. 

That in a nutshell is how this gun shoots. I would take .8 all day long if it did it all day long. It is so sad that I can sit there and shoot my old 700 in 270 and do that day in and day out, and it will just put shots in a tiny little cloverleaf hole. And that is with a barrel I probably hadn't cleaned in 20 years. 

I wonder if I shot some of those Tubbs bullets out of it, if that would help? They have them preloaded already, with the different  grit on each set of 10. The reviews are pretty good, even if accuracy didn't improve, cleaning does. 

Here is what is truly sad. I shot my Ruger Hawkeye Compact 308 at the range the other day. With Federal Premium Nosler Partition, 180 grain ammo. It's got a 16.5 in barrel, it weighs 5.75 pounds without a scope, and no recoil pad. It is not pleasant to shoot in a T-shirt. I ended up with some bruising, but put 3 shots into a 1.2 in group at 100 yards. With a 2-8 power scope. 

Heck I was really close to 1.2 with my 1971 Marlin 30-30 with Hornady Leverevolution ammo at 100 yards. It really likes Remington Hog Hammer, but it seems to shoot the barnes ammo about the same. 

And the Marlin, also without a recoil pad, is much more easy on my shoulder than my little Ruger 308. 






Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: October/18/2018 at 11:24
What Savage does well is build barrels. They go to great lengths to make sure they have straight, uniform bores, and this is why they typically shoot well. The spanner nut installation system they use for mounting the barrel to the action and establishing headspace...albeit ugly...is an ingenious way of assembly that lowers manufacturing time and cost. I can't fault Savage for filling a price point niche and doing it in a sensible way. They represent a reasonably good value for money spent, due almost solely to their barrel quality.

In contrast to their excellent barrels, I can't stand their action and most of their stocks. The action features a bolt stop that doubles as the sear, made of stamped sheet metal. Their trigger assemblies are also made of stamped sheet metal parts. The bolt shroud is loose and "jiggly." The action overall is poorly fitted and finished. In fairness, I do think the "floating" bolt head and the bolt race baffle behind the bolt lugs are good ideas. 

With few exceptions, their stocks are cheaply made and (IMO) have poor ergonomics. I can't totally fault them for this, as again, they are trying to meet a price niche.

I think Savages are a good choice for a rifle you basically plan to abuse. For something like a prairie dog rifle, where you routinely shoot thousands of rounds in a weekend, they're a good choice, because you can easily and inexpensively replace the barrel when you burn one out.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/18/2018 at 12:59
I like my son's little savage. Except for ejecting the spent round. 

I like my Ruger M77 and Hawkeye too, but they aren't as tight as it relates to the bolt cycling as a remington. When I was in college, I had a Winchester model 70, now that had a smooth bolt. I wish I had kept that gun. I traded for my Remington 700 BDL. Which has been a fantastic gun, but I haven't seen the 270 just drop deer like the 308 or 7-08 does. 

The first rifle I bought was a Savage 110, in 270, and man alive did that gun kick. No recoil pad at all. The Winchester I added a Pachmyr decelerator pad, which everyone loved the looks of. That helped it. The Remington, which came in their Rynite stock, didn't have a pad either. 

I switched it out to a Hogue bed block stock and never looked back. 

If I rebarreled my 308, I am thinking I might want to do a 7-08. But probably won't. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/18/2018 at 13:25
I don't think I have mentioned this yet, but get a Tikka. Big smile   It does/has everything you just listed. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: October/19/2018 at 16:00
Tikka doesn't leave the factory unless it shoots 1 inch or less, probably the best off the shelf new. With a Remington to get the best accuracy a gunsmith will true the action and re cut the crown on the barrel as well as glass bedding and free floating the barrel. Savages seem to shoot very well right out of the box but the extractor leaves something to be desired.  The extractor of preference now is one Badger Ordnance makes that is like an AR-15 extractor design but without the hump on the back (I just had one put on a Remington R5  300 WM.  The Sako type extractors also seem to work well.  I have been less than excited about the accuracy of my Ruger 77 in 300 WM but the extractor is plenty strong and unlikely to ever fail as a hunting gun it is quite solid, never fails. So each make has some positive factors.  Remington's don't seem to start out shooting to their full potential but a good gunsmith can do a lot to help them and if you throw enough money at them they will shoot.
You can go whole hog on a Remington but it gets spendy : http://www.gaprecision.net/rifles-ready-to-ship/6-5-creedmoor-remington-700.html


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger



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