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Which Rifle for Daughter's Birthday Present?

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Firearms
Forum Description: All makes, models and uses
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=44922
Printed Date: December/10/2018 at 14:51


Topic: Which Rifle for Daughter's Birthday Present?
Posted By: frozentundra
Subject: Which Rifle for Daughter's Birthday Present?
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 18:10
My daughter is turning 12.  She is familliar with the AR platform from S&W M&P 15-22 and has just completed her first year on the school trap shooting team.  She used a 6.7 pound 24" barrel semiauto 20 gauge for that.  She had a lot of fun and did very well.  

I'd like to get her a very lightweight, compact, handy rifle for learning positional shooting techniques, sling supported techniques, learning trajectory and wind drift, short range hunting, target shooting, and plinking.  Like a sub-caliber version of something approaching Cooper's scout rifle, but with a modern traditionally mounted optic, and optimised for a very small person to shoot/carry.  This rifle would be her constant companion, will probably take a real beating, and be shot a ton.  

In order to facilitate high volume shooting practice, it would have to be light recoiling and have relatively inexpensive ammunition available.  I was thinking either .223/5.56 or 7/62x39.     

Most of our shooting would be from 300 meters and in, and frequently 200 meters and in.  

Whitetail deer at a very modest range would be the largest game we'd be after.  Varmint/predator hunting at a slightly longer range.  

A 16" barrel would be optimal.  Short length of pull prefered, too.  Weight should be about 6 pounds maximum for just the rifle, I think.    

I've been looking at a BCM ELW-F lightweight upper, which could be used with my AR's bolt carrier group and lower receiver to produce a slightly sub 6 pound AR.   

Some other options would be:
CZ 527 youth carbine in 7.62x39 or 5.56.  It's light for sure, but perhaps just a little longer than optimal.  And it's so pretty it'd be a shame to use it as a beater rifle.   

Tikka T3x compact lite in .223 (or older T3 compact lite).  It's heavier and longer (20"), but the action on these are soooo smooth.

Ruger American Ranch rifles are perfect looking, except that they don't come with short length of pull.  I'd probably have to try to chop up and retrofit the stock for shorter LOP.  I am also concerned that they wouldn't cycle and feed very easily and smoothly for someone without a lot of strength, being that they feed from double column magazines.    

Ruger American Compact .223 is 18", light, and short LOP, but also has Ruger craptastic rotary mags.  I don't know if they would feed smoothly/well either.   

Why does nobody make a lightweight 16" 7.62x39 or 5.56 bolt gun with a short length of pull stock?  It really seems like that should be a thing!  A lightweight AR can certainly fill that void, but they don't lend themselves to optimising cheek weld/comb height for use with optics.  I may just go the AR route anyway and try to mount the scope a tad lower somehow.  

 Anybody have any good ideas or advice for me?  I don't know as much about rifles as some of the seasoned enthusiasts or pros, so I could use all the help I can get. 

Thanks.  



Replies:
Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 19:00
Bolt action 7mm08

(Dad can use it too) 😉

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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 19:26
^^^Yes! What he said.



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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 20:31
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Bolt action 7mm08

(Dad can use it too) 😉

If it was primarily for hunting, I would likely do this.  However, this rifle will be mostly for long days at the range, putting as many rounds down the barrel as are reasonably custructive for learning to shoot. 

If I had her shooting 50 or 100 rounds of 7mm08 through a 6 pound rifle, I don't think she would like me very much!  Also, the ammo isn't very inexpensive for plinking.  

We will probably only hunt very occasionally compared to how much we go to the range (like every weekend)  


Posted By: Son of Ed
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 20:40
257 Roberts 

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Visit the Ed Show


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 21:40
The comment about ARs not being good for cheek weld with optics. If u buy a proper ar type mount they are the best for proper cheek weld IMO. The ruger american stocks are terrible IMO. They feed ok from the rotery mags but they are a little rough as you are worried about but i think that could be handled with a little practice. They make a muddy girl version in .243 with shorter stock. I have one of those for my wife and its nice. 18” batrel

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 22:02
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

The comment about ARs not being good for cheek weld with optics. If u buy a proper ar type mount they are the best for proper cheek weld IMO.

If you don't mind me asking, which mounts are you using for scoping ARs?  I wish there were mounts readily available that were lower than a 'true co witness' height (with the plain of the iron sights).  

I have an SWFA SSALT mount, but it puts the scope a bit high for my optimum cheek weld.  I think it's because I have high cheekbones and a relatively thin facial structure compared to many.  I get more of a jaw or chin weld than a true cheek weld compared to my bolt gun with custom comb riser.  I think for smaller kids this is often even more pronounced.  

 On the other hand, I have a friend with a large head/face that can't come close to being able to see through my bolt gun setup.  I think this is why they have adjustable comb risers on precision rifles.  One size definitely doesn't fit all.  


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 22:12
American defense makes some that are a little lower than a ssalt mount. The first one is a bit to low for me, but may work for you. The second is still lower than ssalt i think

https://swfa.com/american-defense-ad-recon-s-scope-mount-278.html - https://swfa.com/american-defense-ad-recon-s-scope-mount-278.html

https://swfa.com/american-defense-ad-recon-scope-mount-208.html - https://swfa.com/american-defense-ad-recon-scope-mount-208.html

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: June/10/2018 at 23:31
Originally posted by frozentundra frozentundra wrote:

Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Bolt action 7mm08

(Dad can use it too) 😉


If it was primarily for hunting, I would likely do this.  However, this rifle will be mostly for long days at the range, putting as many rounds down the barrel as are reasonably custructive for learning to shoot. 

If I had her shooting 50 or 100 rounds of 7mm08 through a 6 pound rifle, I don't think she would like me very much!  Also, the ammo isn't very inexpensive for plinking.  

We will probably only hunt very occasionally compared to how much we go to the range (like every weekend)  


My suggestion was based on the fact you said the rifle would also be used for deer hunting, and you didn’t define what “high volume” means to you. I don’t know the laws in your state, but in some states, the use of any cartridge firing .22 cal bullets isn’t legal for deer. If you plan to shoot several hundred or more rounds per range session, I believe .223 is your best choice. If legal in your state, I would have no problem hunting deer with .223 with moderate range, careful shot placement, and using the right bullets being a given.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 00:16
[/QUOTE] 

My suggestion was based on the fact you said the rifle would also be used for deer hunting, and you didn’t define what “high volume” means to you. I don’t know the laws in your state, but in some states, the use of any cartridge firing .22 cal bullets isn’t legal for deer. If you plan to shoot several hundred or more rounds per range session, I believe .223 is your best choice. If legal in your state, I would have no problem hunting deer with .223 with moderate range, careful shot placement, and using the right bullets being a given.[/QUOTE]

.223 is the minimum caliber for deer here in WI.  I know it isn't optimal, but I think that judicious selection of distance and shot angle, combined with proper execution of marksmanship principles, is probably more ethical than a lot of what happens with larger calibers.  I've got a modest stash of the Federal 62 grain 'Fusion' load.  

I've also been considering 7.62x39, as I don't think the recoil would be punishing, and there is a wide selection of cheap bulk ammo available.  Wolf and Golden Tiger both fill a niche for certain types of shooting, and steel cased Hornady SST is also relatively inexpensive.  

What I can't understand for the life of me is why nobody seems to make a 16" bolt gun in 7.62x39 or .223 that has a short LOP stock.  The Ruger American Ranch is close, but the stock seems a bit longer than optimal.  As I said before,  this type of gun should be a thing that exists!  Am I just missing something?  Does somebody make one and I just don't know about it?  

A Lot of what we'd be doing would revolve around practicing positional rifle marksmanship, slings supported positions, and other jackass positions off of barricades.  Also, lots of hiking rural property while carrying a rifle.  A tiny 16" carbine with short LOP seems best for these roles.  Perhaps a very lightweight AR is simply the best option at this time....






Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 03:51
A couple of good buddies of mine have the CZ527 in 7.62x39 and are very happy with it. I have a .223 CZ527 American and like it a lot.

As Ed said, .257Roberts is a very capable chambering and I have one of those. Not always the easiest to feed but I have put a 12ogr Nosler partition through both sides of several fairly chunky fallow deer. I would say a .243W might be the thing though you are a bit limited in some cases for heavier hunting bullets. (For bigger game and deer, I'd be a little wary of .223 Rem. Not impossible to use but little margin for error)

Scrummy


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 04:26
I think you might be asking for too much from one rifle and I don’t like .223 for Deer.

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 08:54
Originally posted by frozentundra frozentundra wrote:

I've also been considering 7.62x39, as I don't think the recoil would be punishing, and there is a wide selection of cheap bulk ammo available.  Wolf and Golden Tiger both fill a niche for certain types of shooting, and steel cased Hornady SST is also relatively inexpensive.  


Maybe it’s just due to my size and amount of shooting I do, but I don’t notice any significant recoil difference between 7.62x39 and 7-08/6.5 Creedmoor class of cartridges. I personally have never found 7.62x39 factory ammo to shoot very well, so if target accuracy is the main goal with this gun, it would be one of the last chamberings I’d select. For great inherent accuracy and good availability in factory ammo combined with fairly mild recoil AND great performance on deer sized animals AND a great selection of factory rifles with proper barrel twist out of the box all in one sweet package, it’s currently impossible to beat 6.5 Creedmoor.

Still, if extremely high volume shooting with good inherent accuracy and nearly nonexistent recoil that is still relatively inexpensive to feed is the main goal, I still believe .223 is your best bet. It isn’t ideal for deer and would be way down my list of preferred deer cartridges, but it will work within the limitations & conditions already discussed.

As for short LOP stocks, you can go with either an AR with adjustable buttstock, or if you want a bolt action, the Ruger M77 MKII Hawkeye Compact is available in .223 and has a 12.5” LOP.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 09:28
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by frozentundra frozentundra wrote:

I've also been considering 7.62x39, as I don't think the recoil would be punishing, and there is a wide selection of cheap bulk ammo available.  Wolf and Golden Tiger both fill a niche for certain types of shooting, and steel cased Hornady SST is also relatively inexpensive.  


Maybe it’s just due to my size and amount of shooting I do, but I don’t notice any significant recoil difference between 7.62x39 and 7-08/6.5 Creedmoor class of cartridges. I personally have never found 7.62x39 factory ammo to shoot very well, so if target accuracy is the main goal with this gun, it would be one of the last chamberings I’d select. For great inherent accuracy and good availability in factory ammo combined with fairly mild recoil AND great performance on deer sized animals AND a great selection of factory rifles with proper barrel twist out of the box all in one sweet package, it’s currently impossible to beat 6.5 Creedmoor.

Still, if extremely high volume shooting with good inherent accuracy and nearly nonexistent recoil that is still relatively inexpensive to feed is the main goal, I still believe .223 is your best bet. It isn’t ideal for deer and would be way down my list of preferred deer cartridges, but it will work within the limitations & conditions already discussed.

As for short LOP stocks, you can go with either an AR with adjustable buttstock, or if you want a bolt action, the Ruger M77 MKII Hawkeye Compact is available in .223 and has a 12.5” LOP.

Bingo!! I'd never heard of a Ruger M77 MKII Hawkeye Compact.  I knew someone must make such a rifle.  This reinstills my hope for humanity.  Thank you!

I have a very heavy 24" barrel Savage FCP-SR with an 10x SWFA SS and Harris Bipod in 6.5 creedmoor that I'll have to let her try, as well as an AK with a Zhukov stock.  We'll shoot these back to back with a 16" AR and see what she thinks.  However, I suspect that you are correct above; at the end of the day, when pure shooting practice and marksmanship principles are the primary goal, the .223 is going to be unbeatable.  At least when lightweight, low recoil, and cheap ammo are also indispensable criteria.



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 10:08
300 blackout shooting 110 to 120 super sonic bullets is pretty much the same thing and the 7.62x39.  They make those in bolt actions.  Also Ruger makes both of them in the American and you can buy a shorter LOP stock from Ruger for those guns. 

IMO buying a bolt action chambered in a AR/AK round is not popular because a .308 will do everything a 7.62x39 or 300 blk will do.  You can load them low recoil with both less powder and lighter bullets and also load them standard for larger game.  In a way you are just handicapping yourself with one of those calibers in a bolt gun, unless you have a specific reason like shooting subsonic 300 blk with a suppressor. 

You can buy reduced recoil ammo for many calibers which might be a good option. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 12:54
A friend of mine used a Howa 1500 barreled action with a Boyd's stock. And figured he could just upgrade the stock when needed.


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 20:52
 if you could go with 2 rifles... I'd throw the .17 Hornet in there for practicing... it has nearly the ballistics of the .223 and recoil is non-existent!  Savage makes a fairly inexpensive one and I'm sure you could get the stock cut down. Then you could go with a 6.5 Cred or 7mm-08 for deer.

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take em!


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 21:21
The new shooter training I do is on a Tikka T3 varmint, no recoil issues, smooth bolt, plenty accurate, and easy for new shooters to learn the basics.

In marksmanship, I start them with bolt guns, almost always. I also have a full size Savage 22LR perfect for kids - suppressed especially - but too small for your purposes.
I agree 223 is pushing the limits of a deer rifle, but getting them comfortable with a bolt action rifle pays dividends later.
Though if she is good with s 20-gauge recoil, she might be fine with a bit more than 223.
The recommendation of. 7-08 is good, as is 243. Both are stout in a 6 pound gun though.

I’d say get the Tikka, if she outgrows it, you have a great plinker or can sell it for most of what you have in it.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 21:41
I recently purchased one one the Howa mini actions in 6.5 Grendel. My 9 year old daughter who is 4'6" and weighs 70 pounds has no problem handling the recoil and has already put over 200 rounds through it. You can get Hornady American Gunner ammunition for roughly $.40 a round so it is not expensive to shoot and is more than capable for deer sized game.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 21:45

 Been watching this progress, curious to see where it would go.  You laid out a pretty specific list of what you hoped to achieve. You've got an inspired young shooter that will learn bad habits just as fast as good ones. It looks to me that after all has been hashed out, the AR is what you had in mind and for good reason. Most brands can be made to shoot with really good accuracy. If you hope to get one that shoots above average out of the box you will need to look at the higher end choices. Yes you can occasionally get a good one from the budget brands but that is a huge gamble. Most lowers are going to be good enough but, you will need to upgrade the trigger. The upper, bolt carrier group and barrel are key for accuracy. Even in some of the upper end components I usually face the receiver recrown the muzzle and check the head space and adjust if needed. There are other little tweaks that can help with accuracy on uppers that "could do better". As for cheek weld and scope height you could be fighting an uphill battle until she really understands sight picture and how to use every aspect of that picture to her advantage. If you're going to give her the best start you can afford you also have to consider spending for equal quality glass. Many of us here are more than willing to help where we can but we all have a wide range of experiences and more opinions than is legal. When you have decided what you are going to do (rifle and scope) we can help with the next steps if you think anyone here can. look forward to seeing what you get.

Good luck!

Salute!

Wanted to add, Seeing that shooter discipline is one of your primary goals for her. The 223 is more than adequate for taking deer. You do your part in choosing the correct ammo, teaching her proper shot placement and responsible shooting ethics and she will have the same success that most good responsible hunters do.

Remember, practicing good form perfects good form. Practicing bad form perfects bad form. You have to know "good form" to teach good form.

Again, good luck!



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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 21:51
How are you adjusting headspace on an ar sarge? Are you taking off the barrel extension and doing something to it? Or is there some other trick? Always been curious on how and what parts can be adjusted

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 22:00

 Once I reface the receiver "usually" the bolt won't close on the go gauge. So I take the chamber reamer and make a light cut until the bolt will drop on the go gauge. Then check with the no go gauge and if it checks out you have a very accurate AR. The head space check and chamber cut is done with the barrel and barrel extension assembled.

 



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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/11/2018 at 22:08
Cool. Thanks sarge

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/12/2018 at 01:00
Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

 Been watching this progress, curious to see where it would go.  You laid out a pretty specific list of what you hoped to achieve. You've got an inspired young shooter that will learn bad habits just as fast as good ones. It looks to me that after all has been hashed out, the AR is what you had in mind and for good reason. Most brands can be made to shoot with really good accuracy. If you hope to get one that shoots above average out of the box you will need to look at the higher end choices. Yes you can occasionally get a good one from the budget brands but that is a huge gamble. Most lowers are going to be good enough but, you will need to upgrade the trigger. The upper, bolt carrier group and barrel are key for accuracy. Even in some of the upper end components I usually face the receiver recrown the muzzle and check the head space and adjust if needed. There are other little tweaks that can help with accuracy on uppers that "could do better". As for cheek weld and scope height you could be fighting an uphill battle until she really understands sight picture and how to use every aspect of that picture to her advantage. If you're going to give her the best start you can afford you also have to consider spending for equal quality glass. Many of us here are more than willing to help where we can but we all have a wide range of experiences and more opinions than is legal. When you have decided what you are going to do (rifle and scope) we can help with the next steps if you think anyone here can. look forward to seeing what you get.

Good luck!

Salute!

Wanted to add, Seeing that shooter discipline is one of your primary goals for her. The 223 is more than adequate for taking deer. You do your part in choosing the correct ammo, teaching her proper shot placement and responsible shooting ethics and she will have the same success that most good responsible hunters do.

Remember, practicing good form perfects good form. Practicing bad form perfects bad form. You have to know "good form" to teach good form.

Again, good luck!


Thanks, this seems like really good advice.

I'm certainly the weak link in the chain as far as rifle instruction goes, unfortunately.  Almost all of my resources for formal firearm training have gone into civilian-context concealed pistol training.  I think this is the most practical and important area for most people to spend training resources on in today's America.  At least if they are going to carry a handgun, that is.

I've been fortunate enough to travel around for training with some nationally recognised instructors including Tom Givens, of Rangemaster; Larry Lindenman, of Point Driven Training; Dr. William April, of April Risk Consulting; Jay Cunningham, of Protective Shooting Concepts, and have also had some less formal in-person coaching from Cecil Burch, of Immediate Action Jujitsu; and Greg Ellifritz, of Active Response Training.  Also, some concealed carry-centric medical training from Caleb Causey, of Lone Star Medics; and Eli Miller, of Global Response Management.  

It's worth noting that none of this training has much of anything to do with rifles, except the medical training, and that was about dealing with the result of rifle fire.  

Most of what I know about running the AR comes from following the late Pat Rogers, of EAG Tactical; and Pat McNamara, of TMACS Inc.  I have focused more on using the AR as a (relatively) close range defensive tool vs. a longer range precision instrument.  Some of my other influences regarding AR platform rifle work include Paul Howe, of CSAT; and the late Paul Gomez, of Gomez Training International.  This is all largely based off of semi-dedicated study via the internet forums, books, articles, and video content.   

When it comes to actual precision rifle work, this is an area that I wish I knew more about.  I have followed the Sniper 101 series by Rex Tibor on youtube, which is pretty well done, I think.  Probably over 50 hours of content, that.  Also, I've been trying to follow Todd Hodnett and Bryan Litz.  I sometimes watch videos from John McQuay, of 8541Tactical youtube. 

So as you can see, I'm pretty serious about shooting, but not very experienced or skilled with precision rifle technique.  I try to be thoughtful and focus on proper fundamentals, as this has served me well with pistol shooting, but I'm sure I am missing many pieces of the puzzle.  My daughter deserves better instruction, but ,unfortunately, I'm what she's got.  I'd like to get her (and me) to an Appleseed shoot as soon as possible.  

So far I'm tentatively leaning toward getting her a Bravo Company (BCM) 16" ELW-F barreled upper assembly with a 13" MCMR (M Loc) freefloat handguard.  These have a proprietary barrel profile, tapered more like a hunting rifle barrel than a M4 or A2 profile.  It makes them really light up front where the weight has more leverage against you, but thicker and stiffer back toward the chamber.  I think this upper should be accurate enough for our purposes, unless we get a lemon.  I could then put it on my BCM lower and use my BCM bolt group for starters.  Later we could add a lower and bolt assembly as funds permit.  I think this setup should come in a tad under 6 pounds.  Probably about 5.9 pounds.    

As far as optics go, I've got an SWFA 1-4 classic (Mil-Quad DM) that seems like it would be appropriate.  It's perhaps not the best precision target shooting setup, but should be a decent place to start for an all-around, lightweight, general purpose carbine.  I'd thought about getting an Aero Precision lightweight cantilever mount, but I wish there was a way to mount the scope just a little bit lower than the line of traditional iron sights.  

Regarding teaching her to use optical sighting systems, I've tried to teach her how to detect parallax by shifting her eye around in the eyebox, while looking for reticle creep on target (this is for a scope with parallax adjustment), and adjusting as necessary.  Also, I've tried to show her a technique for getting centered up in the scope to further address parallax issues, whereby you pull your head back slightly until you see a hint of scope shadow around the edge of the tube.  Then you can use the scope shadow to make sure you center eye in scope.  She seems to understand this.  I had her shooting about a 3" to 3.5" group on paper plates at 175 yards using my AR, mil-spec trigger, cheap PMC x-tac 55 grain, and that SWFA 1-4.  She was also able to hit some 3.5" steel plates at the same distance by applying a very slight 6-o'clock hold while using a 50yard/200meter zero scheme.   This was from prone position, in the dirt, resting on a surplus army 3 day assault pack.  Anybody have advice/tips/tricks for me regarding approach to sighting platforms?


I know this is a ridiculously long winded post.  Sorry about that.  I think it helps me to write this stuff out and get it clear in my mind.  Also, I really value criticism and advice from experienced people.  I don't have any friends that shoot much, so I don't have anybody to discuss these things with.  If other people can point out where I'm making mistakes, or failing to realize something, it's worth the time it takes to write this.  I'd also love some input on reference materials that could help us along in the project if anybody has some ideas. 

 If you've actually read this far....thanks for taking the time!!       




Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/12/2018 at 14:48

 Good to see someone make the effort for excellence. You have put forth the effort to learn hands on as well as researched the many perspectives and skill minded training opportunities that are out there.

Learning good pistol shooting discipline is beneficial across the board. Nothing helps you understand the value of sight picture and trigger control more than pistol.

Obviously you've done enough to understand the must have of practicing good habits/form.

" I've tried to show her a technique for getting centered up in the scope to further address parallax issues, whereby you pull your head back slightly until you see a hint of scope shadow around the edge of the tube.  Then you can use the scope shadow to make sure you center eye in scope.  She seems to understand this."

Excellent start for getting the most out of your optics. But I do suggest pulling back to "more than just a hint of shadow". A moderate shadow will speed up the process of centering your eye and making a reasonably faster shot. After doing that for awhile "on the same rifle set up" your instincts take over and you tend to fall in to center more naturally. Those are basic or foundation practices that will help her perfect her natural abilities. Once she appears to have the basics well established then you should encourage much more variety in shooting positions. She'll have some favorites and some she don't like so much but being able to adapt is vital for all of us who enjoy shooting sports. All the while keeping ethical shots high on the list.

Something else that may help you. If on occasion you seem to hit a wall in teaching her a specific shooting position or discipline and she just don't get it. Try having a buddy who knows the discipline well help her with it. Sometimes we get in our own way with our kids or wife and don't realize it. And if that doesn't help it is possible you are moving too fast.

I'm not offering any suggestions on brand or platform so much as you are doing your homework and in an area you will have to learn what fits your goals best. We can suggest everything under the sun but until you use it to put rounds down range you won't know for sure.

From what I've seen so far I think she has a pretty good instructor. At this age keep it fun for her. Let her push herself and encourage her to finish what she starts. But not to the point of being discouraged and walking away. Right now she is motivated by pride. That is a two edged sword. If it is too easy she will get bored, too hard she will get discouraged. You know her personality. Always pay attention to what inspires her "TODAY". She is *female* and about to be a teen. Do what you can while you can and be thankful as much as you can.

Salute!!



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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: June/13/2018 at 09:38
Howa Mini in 6.5 Grendel is what we're doing. Wolf steel case is .23+- for plinking. Goes 4moa or less and is surprisingly clean. Rifle is about $360 on sale at Whittaker's.

I built my wife a very light AR for the same purpose, but it is twice the price and not superior for hunting.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: June/14/2018 at 06:08
Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

 Good to see someone make the effort for excellence. You have put forth the effort to learn hands on as well as researched the many perspectives and skill minded training opportunities that are out there.

Learning good pistol shooting discipline is beneficial across the board. Nothing helps you understand the value of sight picture and trigger control more than pistol.

Obviously you've done enough to understand the must have of practicing good habits/form.

" I've tried to show her a technique for getting centered up in the scope to further address parallax issues, whereby you pull your head back slightly until you see a hint of scope shadow around the edge of the tube.  Then you can use the scope shadow to make sure you center eye in scope.  She seems to understand this."

Excellent start for getting the most out of your optics. But I do suggest pulling back to "more than just a hint of shadow". A moderate shadow will speed up the process of centering your eye and making a reasonably faster shot. After doing that for awhile "on the same rifle set up" your instincts take over and you tend to fall in to center more naturally. Those are basic or foundation practices that will help her perfect her natural abilities. Once she appears to have the basics well established then you should encourage much more variety in shooting positions. She'll have some favorites and some she don't like so much but being able to adapt is vital for all of us who enjoy shooting sports. All the while keeping ethical shots high on the list.

Something else that may help you. If on occasion you seem to hit a wall in teaching her a specific shooting position or discipline and she just don't get it. Try having a buddy who knows the discipline well help her with it. Sometimes we get in our own way with our kids or wife and don't realize it. And if that doesn't help it is possible you are moving too fast.

I'm not offering any suggestions on brand or platform so much as you are doing your homework and in an area you will have to learn what fits your goals best. We can suggest everything under the sun but until you use it to put rounds down range you won't know for sure.

From what I've seen so far I think she has a pretty good instructor. At this age keep it fun for her. Let her push herself and encourage her to finish what she starts. But not to the point of being discouraged and walking away. Right now she is motivated by pride. That is a two edged sword. If it is too easy she will get bored, too hard she will get discouraged. You know her personality. Always pay attention to what inspires her "TODAY". She is *female* and about to be a teen. Do what you can while you can and be thankful as much as you can.

Salute!!

My daughters all got "too cool" to shoot with me at some point in their teenage years.  Generally around 14-16.  They like to "remember when", but only the oldest shoots very regularly now.



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: June/14/2018 at 11:24
I would do an AR15 in 223 for her since she is already familiar with the platform. Just buy or order some heavier bullet weight ammo for deer. I load 60 grain partitions but think I might want to step it up a little. 

My 9 year old shot my little Ruger M77 compact stainless 7-08 at a deer last year and wasn't happy with the recoil. He doesn't mind the AR. 

I just think its hard to beat the 223 for economy. You could always get an extra upper in 6.5 grendel or 6.8 SPC for deer hunting and swap out. I have been toying with the idea of rebarrelling the one I have to a larger caliber, perhaps even 458 socom. 


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: June/14/2018 at 23:30
https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/26968.html

The Ruger American now comes in 300 BLK runs AR mags,  7.62x39 runs ruger mini 30 mags  both of which are solid choices for low recoil mid range rifles but with enough smack down to take deer and hogs. While other popular calibers like .243 and 7mm08 are also worth considering I really like the idea that one can run 20+ round mags in these new Rugers and not have them hold the appearance of an AR.

As far as adjustable stock and cheek pieces the AR platform has a lot of options, a review of the differnt stocks available and the cheek pieces that can be added is worth a look.

http://www.magpul.com/firearms-accessories/stocks/ar15-m4-m16-sr25-m110-ar10 - http://www.magpul.com/firearms-accessories/stocks/ar15-m4-m16-sr25-m110-ar10

PRS® GEN3 Precision-Adjustable Stock  magpul
http://swfa.com/magpul-prs-gen-3-precision-adjustable-stock-6.html - http://swfa.com/magpul-prs-gen-3-precision-adjustable-stock-6.html


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/15/2018 at 09:54
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

 Good to see someone make the effort for excellence. You have put forth the effort to learn hands on as well as researched the many perspectives and skill minded training opportunities that are out there.

Learning good pistol shooting discipline is beneficial across the board. Nothing helps you understand the value of sight picture and trigger control more than pistol.

Obviously you've done enough to understand the must have of practicing good habits/form.

" I've tried to show her a technique for getting centered up in the scope to further address parallax issues, whereby you pull your head back slightly until you see a hint of scope shadow around the edge of the tube.  Then you can use the scope shadow to make sure you center eye in scope.  She seems to understand this."

Excellent start for getting the most out of your optics. But I do suggest pulling back to "more than just a hint of shadow". A moderate shadow will speed up the process of centering your eye and making a reasonably faster shot. After doing that for awhile "on the same rifle set up" your instincts take over and you tend to fall in to center more naturally. Those are basic or foundation practices that will help her perfect her natural abilities. Once she appears to have the basics well established then you should encourage much more variety in shooting positions. She'll have some favorites and some she don't like so much but being able to adapt is vital for all of us who enjoy shooting sports. All the while keeping ethical shots high on the list.

Something else that may help you. If on occasion you seem to hit a wall in teaching her a specific shooting position or discipline and she just don't get it. Try having a buddy who knows the discipline well help her with it. Sometimes we get in our own way with our kids or wife and don't realize it. And if that doesn't help it is possible you are moving too fast.

I'm not offering any suggestions on brand or platform so much as you are doing your homework and in an area you will have to learn what fits your goals best. We can suggest everything under the sun but until you use it to put rounds down range you won't know for sure.

From what I've seen so far I think she has a pretty good instructor. At this age keep it fun for her. Let her push herself and encourage her to finish what she starts. But not to the point of being discouraged and walking away. Right now she is motivated by pride. That is a two edged sword. If it is too easy she will get bored, too hard she will get discouraged. You know her personality. Always pay attention to what inspires her "TODAY". She is *female* and about to be a teen. Do what you can while you can and be thankful as much as you can.

Salute!!

My daughters all got "too cool" to shoot with me at some point in their teenage years.  Generally around 14-16.  They like to "remember when", but only the oldest shoots very regularly now.

Yes sir, That is probably coming here too. But that is the hard part of being "Dad". Especially with girls. But we get to be there when ever they need us. Just wish I had understood it sooner than I did. But with his daughter being in organized shooting she may be in it a few more yrs. The longer you can keep it "fun" for her the longer you get to participate.

60 grain is a good wt. for deer but don't under estimate a 55hp. Regardless of bullet wt. shot placement is everything. And shot placement requires a steady rest and good trigger discipline. These are things that must me practiced, and prepared for in you deer stand. The guys that hunt the property I manage and want to use an AR have to gain my confidence in their shooting skills and ethics. They consistently take deer with their AR's and to my knowledge only one has not been recovered. That is better than most can say with big cals. 

All that being said, if your rifle is accurate with the heavier bullets it makes perfect sense to use them.

 

You want to get more lungs than heart for better blood trail and quicker bleed out. If you stop the heart with a center shot you stop the pump and no blood trail and no bleed out.



-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/15/2018 at 11:44
So, I've got a little update to our progress toward choosing her birthday present.  

We hit the range with a lightweight "Recce" style BCM AR topped with a SWFA 1-4 classic in a SSALT mount, a 922r conversion of a Russian Saiga AK platform rifle chambered in 7.62x39, and a 24" Savage FCP-SR 6.5 creedmoor.

Long story short: she can handle them all very well, but, unsurprisingly, finds the AR to be the most pleasant/fun to shoot as far as volume is concerned.  She has decided she would like to stick with .223/5.56 for her rifle, but we are still deciding between an AR upper or a bolt gun.

Her order of preference was AR>Savage>AK, with the optics (or lack thereof) being explicitly cited as a factor.  

We shot strictly from the prone position for this cartridge/platform recoil evaluation, at a distance of 172 yards.  Her prone position form controlled the recoil of all the guns surprisingly well.  There was very little rifle movement across the board.  It looked as if a much larger person was behind the gun(s).  First we warmed up on the AR, focusing specifically on good position for recoil management.  Then we moved to the AK platform with open sights. 

Finally, we finished up with the Savage in 6.5.  It's a 9 lb gun with a SWFA SS fixed 10x, Harris swivel bipod, and bolt-on kydex cheek riser; a poor-man's long range precision trainer.  The gun probably weighs close to 12 lbs in that configuration.  We were limited on the ammunition we had with us; just a handful of Hornady 140 ELD-M and 147 ELDM.  I would shoot one round and have her watch, then have her fire a round while I watched her.  We switched back and forth like that a bit to avoid fatigue and keep things slow.  Between the both of us, the group size never opened up past approximately 1.25" @ 172 yards.  Our best 'shared group' was just over 5/8" with the 147 ELD-M.  I was very pleasantly surprised, to say the least!  This Savage could certainly fill the role of deer hunting rifle in certain scenarios. 

I think it just goes to show-- if you treat people like they are capable of a performing at a high level, they will often step up and do so.  Or at least make a good, honest attempt.  I think this is true of most things in life.  

Regarding how long she will remain interested in the shooting sports, I have a hopeful suspicion that she'll be a long-term gun person.  Her school trap team is a big deal to her, but she also really likes action pistol type shooting quite a bit.  We are able to construct any courses of fire that we deem reasonably safe, including integrating reactive steel targets.  This year we started working from the holster with a prescribed four-count drawstroke, structured specifically with real world concealed carry effectiveness in mind.  Although we don't work from concealment yet.  I think by the time she's ready for a 9mm handgun we'll be looking at shooting IDPA matches.  The challenge is to find ways to incorporate her peers into the shooting sports; this way it wouldn't just be boring old dad and his teenage daughter. LOL

Either way, it's great fun while it lasts.  There's hardly anything I can think of that I'd rather do than go shooting with my daughter!      
      


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/15/2018 at 12:29
Now that we have caliber locked in for .223/5.56, it comes down to rifle choice.  

I've pretty much know which way we would go for an AR upper, so that leaves me with having to research bolt guns.  

We've been able to handle a Ruger American Ranch, Ruger American Compact, Full size Tikka T3x lite, Ruger American Predator. 

Not surprisingly, she felt most comfortable with the length of pull on the Ruger American Compact from offhand positions.   This gun has the ruger rotary magazine and a really thin barrel.  I've seen where some people online were reporting very pronounced load sensitivity with this gun.  And according to Ruger's website it's a 1:10 twist.  Confused

I'll make a short list of guns that I've been thinking about so far.  I'd like to know what other options we should consider.   

Ruger American Ranch                    6.1 lbs        13.75 lop      16.1"       1:8
Tikka lite compact                           ???              ???              20"          1:8
Ruger American Compact                6.0 lbs         12.5             18"          1:10
CZ 527 youth                                 5.5 lbs        12.75 lop     18.5"         1:9
Howa lightweight mini action           5.7lbs        13.87 lop       20"          1:9


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: June/15/2018 at 12:38
Smile


-------------
Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: June/15/2018 at 14:12
The Ruger American I had was touchy about how you held the stock. I would expect to upgrade the stock.

CZ's have been a challenge for scope mounting and learning a safety that is backwards to all others. These are not deal-breakers if you know what is up before the purchase. CZ has been moving toward normal safeties.

As for handling, the shorter actions like Remington's Model Seven, CZ 527 or the Howa Mini handle better to me. The longer actions with bolt stops like Tikka cycle more smoothly due to having more support for the bolt at the back of the cycle. Handling comes in on moving deer. Smooth cycling is a pleasure otherwise.


Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: June/16/2018 at 10:16
You can get the Howa barreled actions from Brownells, it includes the bottom metal and magazine. All you need is a stock, you don't have a lot of choices, either Boyds or a chassis. We went with the Brownells chassis made by MDT for two reasons, first, it handled like an AR15 which both my kids are comfortable with. The other reason was LOP. The chassis allows the use of any AR15 stock and is readily adjustable to grow with the kids.


Posted By: frozentundra
Date Posted: June/16/2018 at 10:51
Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

The Ruger American I had was touchy about how you held the stock. I would expect to upgrade the stock.


I've looked at some in the stores.  Many of the plastic forends are actually slightly warped and contacting the barrel way up front, even without any pressure being applied.  Otherwise the barrels are free floating.  There are plenty of examples online of people relieving material from the forend and having a remarkable increase in performance.  Strange that something so simple would be overlooked by the factory!  

I wonder, do you think this could have played a part in the symptoms your rifle was exhibiting?    


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: June/16/2018 at 16:25
The Tikka is a win for accuracy my son has one in .223
As for AR platforms I believe the best choice is White Oak Armament  their uppers win the NRA high power matches.  I have two they are superb.    http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/ - http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: June/17/2018 at 07:26
In my view the CZ527 is the way to go. Love mine and it shoots Federal 62gr soft points well which would probably be something like the best choice for hunting IMHO.

Scrummy


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: June/17/2018 at 21:51
I removed a good bit of material from the fore end of that American to be sure it didn't touch there. The stock was just too soft overall. Any torque from the bags or shooters affected it. The reason I could tell is that rifle would stack them right on top of each other when I got it lined up right. And it would open up if I changed.

They're good enough guns otherwise. I intend to get one of their LH American Predators in 6.5 and bed it in a Boyd's laminate. 

Edit: When people on the internet talk about a rifle shooting small groups, I take it to mean they mean it will sometimes. Lots of so-so rifles will accidentally print a small three shot group now and again. I'm typing here about what it would do over many rounds fired. 



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