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.308 AR build

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
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Topic: .308 AR build
Posted By: supertool73
Subject: .308 AR build
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 13:15
I have been itching for years to get a AR-10 type AR. I finally went a head and did it.

Mega Maten upper and lower set with the 16" rail
F1 carrier group
Rainier Arms match 18" .308 barrel  I really debated between 16" and 18" but 3 oz was the weight diff so the 18" won out. 
Elfmann match trigger
JP buffer spring setup
Superlative arms adjustable gas block
Magpul PRS gen 3 stock.  Or a BCM carbine stock.  Will try them both out and see.   

I am super pumped about this one.  Yippee




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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."



Replies:
Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 15:27
To break it in, overlube it. My general rule on AR10s is put on so much lube that you think you have too much, then you almost have enough.

And AR10s are usually overgassed, but don't worry about that till after you break it in.

Once you have it running well, you might never again take out an AR15 of comparable size.  I often leave the 223s at home now and opt for the 308, the slight increase in weight is more than offset by the significant increase in effect on target.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 16:47
Appreciate the info.

The gas block I bought sounds interesting.  It supposedly bleeds off excess gas instead of shooting it into the upper.  Exactly how it does that I am not sure.  It is also adjustable, so hopefully it will fill that need well.  It adjusts from the front and comes with a long hex wrench to do that.  That alone sold me on it.  I have several other adjustable ones, but they all require taking the hand guard off. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 19:12
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

To break it in, overlube it. My general rule on AR10s is put on so much lube that you think you have too much, then you almost have enough.

And AR10s are usually overgassed, but don't worry about that till after you break it in.

Once you have it running well, you might never again take out an AR15 of comparable size.  I often leave the 223s at home now and opt for the 308, the slight increase in weight is more than offset by the significant increase in effect on target.

I am quite the opposite.  I built myself an AR-10.  It is reliable (now) and accurate.  I almost never shoot it (I use it to test scopes if I think they are at their best on a large frame semi-auto platform) because I vastly prefer the handling of the smaller AR-15.  For off-hand practice, I shoot 5.56.  If I want precision, I take the Grendel.  When I want something that hits hard, I take the 458SOCOM.  All three handle about the same and are easier to shoot well than the AR-10.

I plan to replace the handguard on the AR-10 with an utlralight carbon fiber design from Brigand.  Maybe that will make it handle better.  If that does not work, I will put a heavy barrel on it and relegate it to being a prone/bench gun only.

ILya


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Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 19:52
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

To break it in, overlube it. My general rule on AR10s is put on so much lube that you think you have too much, then you almost have enough.
After breaking in my Armalite AR10T I second this. In the beginning I was adding lube after every shot to the bolt carrier.


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 20:12
I just bought an Aero stripped upper/lower set to build a 6.5 CM on because I *cough* don't own a 308.  I have 2 creedmoors and love them. 

ST please add later how the gas block works out.


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 21:15
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I am quite the opposite.  I built myself an AR-10.  It is reliable (now) and accurate.  I almost never shoot it (I use it to test scopes if I think they are at their best on a large frame semi-auto platform) because I vastly prefer the handling of the smaller AR-15.  For off-hand practice, I shoot 5.56.  If I want precision, I take the Grendel.  When I want something that hits hard, I take the 458SOCOM.  All three handle about the same and are easier to shoot well than the AR-10.

I plan to replace the handguard on the AR-10 with an utlralight carbon fiber design from Brigand.  Maybe that will make it handle better.  If that does not work, I will put a heavy barrel on it and relegate it to being a prone/bench gun only.

ILya


ILya, I have immense respect for your opinions regarding optics, you possess a level of expertise I cannot comprehend. That said, I have used weapons in environemrnts and circumstances you have not. This point becomes startlingly clear on AR10 and warrants a bit of clarification. When I say "effect on target", some would call it stopping power, some would call it energy transfer, I would call it "make a living, moving thing stop moving forever." Our metrics differ. Greatly. I am a huge advocate for precision and accuracy; but would content that the round, even one exceedingly well placed, needs to have an effect on the target.

You often shoot for holes and locations, I often shoot for an end to voluntary movement post-impact. On those 2, a 308 has far less consequence for you than other factors. For me, what the bullet does when it hits is of huge consequence.

This is a great example of why a 223AI or 6.5x47 may be perfect for the range and less-than-ideal for other applications. neither diminishes the other, but what works well for punching paper might not work as well for other tasks.

For those considering an AR10, please consider its purpose!

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 22:39
I'm looking forward to putting some Badlands Bulldozers through my .308 AR...while the moving things I shoot at aren't a threat (other than to my ego), I want 'em down and quick.

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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/19/2017 at 23:05
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 
ILya, I have immense respect for your opinions regarding optics, you possess a level of expertise I cannot comprehend. That said, I have used weapons in environemrnts and circumstances you have not. This point becomes startlingly clear on AR10 and warrants a bit of clarification. When I say "effect on target", some would call it stopping power, some would call it energy transfer, I would call it "make a living, moving thing stop moving forever." Our metrics differ. Greatly. I am a huge advocate for precision and accuracy; but would content that the round, even one exceedingly well placed, needs to have an effect on the target.

You often shoot for holes and locations, I often shoot for an end to voluntary movement post-impact. On those 2, a 308 has far less consequence for you than other factors. For me, what the bullet does when it hits is of huge consequence.

This is a great example of why a 223AI or 6.5x47 may be perfect for the range and less-than-ideal for other applications. neither diminishes the other, but what works well for punching paper might not work as well for other tasks.

For those considering an AR10, please consider its purpose!

Before I proceed with this, please keep in mind that I am in now way going to try to dissuade anyone from getting an AR-10.  I think everyone should own one or two of these and a bunch of AR-15s (and a bunch of other platforms as well).

With that out of the way...  Jeff, I am in no way pretending to have the expertise you have and you are definitely a more competent shot.  However, I like discussions like this.  They always give me food for thought. 

I think I can make a pretty decent argument that the effective range of 458SOCOM is a pretty close match to my shooting ability when nervous or rushed.  As far as terminal ballistics go (I like this term, personally, but call it whatever works for you), I am not sure 308 has anything on 458SOCOM within a couple of hundred yards or so.  The 458 seems to be dead on reliable with a variety of ammo ranging from 200gr @2200fps to 500gr @1300fps.

If we are talking about stopping something at distances beyond the reach of the 458SOCOM, then why not stick with a bolt action of some sort.  Honestly, one of the reasons I ordered The Fix from Q is to have a better handling, compact, light and accurate 308 with AR-ish ergonomics.  

Now, you also have to keep in mind that while I live in California, my ARs are sorta molested into a condition that makes them California legal, while a bolt gun is not subject to most of these idiotic restrictions.

My plan once I get The Fix here is to start practicing all sorts of positional shooting with it and see how well it works for me.

Where am I making erroneous assumptions here?

ILya


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Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 00:10
A .308 at 100 and 200 will be going 600+ fps faster than the socom. That equals a lot more hydrostatic shock. I don't have a 458 but i do have a 45-70 and have shot several deer and two elk with it. I have also shot several deer and elk with 308s and damage wise the 308 does a lot more damage internally. 45-70 in my samples made a nice sized hole, but the .30 cals had a lot more tissue damage around the holes.

Either one did the job, but the 308s made a bigger mess in the inside. Next step up to 28 and 30 cal mags, things get even messier. :)

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: nralifer
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 05:59
Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.

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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 10:22
2.820 is the max for the magpul .308 mags


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 10:30
Okay, in no specific order:

1.  I've not owned/operated a gas gun I would consider "precision", so that doesn't account for much in my thought process.  I have a couple that are moderately impressive, but nothing straight-up "precision."  To that end, I don't grab a gas gun for a precision shot, so my context is a bit different, but I'll wade in just the same.

2.  The Socom carries 7 rounds?  In a magazine that is mostly "fixed" (I built a gun for a guy in California, I though the bullet-button was one of the dumbest things in a long and proud California tradition of dumb things.) An AR10 or AR15 is limited to 10 rounds, correct?  That's still 3 more rounds, each of which can be life-saving.

3.  I've spent little time with a Socom, but do note that recoil, like that of a good gas operated shotgun, does cause momentary loss of target visibility.  I don't like that at all.  Given that an engagement with that rifle might be life-n-death, loss of target visibility is a big, big part of why I don't reach for high-recoil rifles when I am inside someone else's kill radius.

4.  You outline 3 considerations (offhand, precision, and defense) and 3 separate guns for them.   Were it necessary to consolidate those 3 into just one weapon, the AR10 would be the logical choice.

5.  This is a biggy and definitely plays a part in our disparate view: my rifles are always - or "almost always" suppressed.  You could suppress a 458, but that'd take much of the appeal away, I would guess.  You say your guns are easier to shoot well than is an AR10, I would strongly disagree, but much of the disagreement is the suppressor.


In my world, single-use tools are often necessary, but multi-use tools are preferred.  I will, in most cases, give up a small measure of precision to be able to do 3 things well with one gun rather than taking 3 guns.

I am near the tipping point in the "if you could only have one rifle..." debate.  For many years, my answer was a resolute "300WM bolt gun". Now, my answer might be an 18"-barrelled AR10.

If I ever spend any real time with a Nemo 300WM AR, I might be a convert. Sure an 18" barrelled 300WM is basically just a 24" barrelled 308, but I know what a 308 can do inside 800 yards, which serves me very, very well.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 11:33
I agree with most of what you said and, either way, you have a well reasoned argument.  

Still, let's add some of my personal preferences and California flavor to this.

By the time this year ends, bullet button is also going to be illegal in CA and if you choose to use it you will have to register your gun with the state as an assault weapon (assuming you already have it; you can no longer build one with the bullet button).  No sane person is going to register anything, so the way around it that keeps you in compliance with these spectacularly idiotic laws is to convert your ARs to "featureless" configurations.  "Featureless" means that you have a proper detachable magazine, but you can not have a bunch of other things: pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, collapsible stock and a coupel of other things.

Magazine capacity is still limited to ten (apparently, according to the wise California politicians and the booger eating morons who vote for them, I am harmless with a disfigured AR, but the moment I add a pistol grip and flash hider, I am going to just become a mass murderer on the spot).

Here is an example of a CA-legal featureless AR (this is my 458).


On suppressors: I can not have one in California legally.  Period.  And as you correctly noted it has an effect on things (if I could have one, a suppressed 458SOCOM could be a lot of fun).

On magazine capacity: I can get a 10 round 458SOCOM magazine marked as such.

On muzzle devices: since I can no longer have flash hiders and I have a thing against loud brakes, I am running linear comps on almost everything.  They do not do much of anything with recoil, but at least they push the sound away from me.

Without a suppressor and without a pistol grip, the effect of the recoil with the 458 and with the 308 is about the same.  You have a momentary target blackout.  I timed myself and I can deliver an aimed controlled pair on to the target at about the same speed with a 458 chambered AR-15 as I can with a 308 chambered AR-10, despite the fact that the AR-15 is lighter.  Perhaps, it is a training issue. Perhaps, it is simply because the recoil impulse is different between the two.  458 kicks more, but the recoil impulse is slower.  308 has a sharper recoil and seems to want to get away from me more.

On one tool:  for a defense gun, I can not get myself to care about terminal ballistics at 800 yards.  If I were looking for a semi-auto that can do everything in a pinch, to me the 6.5 Grendel strikes a reasonable compromise.  It does not have the same power as the 308, obviously, but it is closer to the 308 than to the 223.  My 18" Grendel sends out a 123gr bullet at an average of 2530fps.  For comparison, with the 308, an 18" barrel typically spits out a 168gr bullet at about the same velocity from an 18" barrel.  That is a big difference, but I can make a pretty decent case that within 200-300 yards the terminal effects on two legged critters are close enough. 

Assuming a rifle configuration that is legal in the People's Republic of California, I do not have target blackout with the Grendel (or 6.8SPC or any of the intermediate AR cartridges), like I do with the 308, despite it being a handier and lighter platform.

ILya


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Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 12:13
The "suppressed vs non-suppressed" conversation is one of apples and cheeseburgers.  Once you start shooting suppressed, you'll shun all forms of shooting rude.

On the part about 800 yards, it isn't about the 800 yard shot alone, it is about the point-blank capabilities extending out to 800 yards if needed - without moving to a different weapon.

If you consider a possible survival scenario that sees you leaving your house and covering open ground, AR15 becomes a bit less persuasive, especially if AR10 is an option.  Is the gun heavier: a bit.  Is ammo heavier per round: yes.  Does my AR10 exceed your AR15 in kill radius: yes.  And for me, that is the game-changer.  Short of that, yes, AR15 in caliber of choice will suffice.

Military and police units deploy with weapons that cover CQB to long-ish range, there is good reason for that.  I see the AR10 as having massive benefit over AR15 with only modest downside (increased weight, less common spare parts.)

All this, of course, is less important on the local gun range.  Stay off all 2-ways ranges and away from hunting and this is as inconsequential as inconsequential gets.

By all means, continue the discourse, the topic is worthy of thought.


And Koshkin sucks.


Carry on.



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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 12:15
That stock, by the way, is...wow...um...yea...

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 12:26
Wow, I am so glad I don't live in California.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 13:14
There is something deep within the human psyche that puts a premium on a false sense of security or safety. Whether it be idiotic things like classifying suppressors as NFA items instead of hearing protection, bizarre restrictions on AR configurations or TSA regulations, there are those who will find a way.

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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:11
"The illusion of security" carries much comfort for those unwilling to secure themselves.

For those of us with some skill in personal and property security, this is an ever-present amusement, whether in someone's misinterpretation of what we do or in their complete lack of self-awareness in what they do.

Suppressors are one humorous area, the "secure" area of an air port is another.

If you feel safe, you are safe.  And if something bad happens, just keep saying, "someone will come save me."


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:31
MDR
I want this to be my next .308.

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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:36
That one is just a .223 though.    Wink


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:38

MDR FDE rifle chassis
Comes in 5.56 or 7.62x51 NATO


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:40
Those indeed look neat.  https://deserttech.com/product_overview.php?product_id=4&load=product_overview - https://deserttech.com/product_overview.php?product_id=4&load=product_overview


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: April/20/2017 at 23:23
Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 09:51
Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin

Are you using the AR10 B magazines that are basically modified M14 magazines?


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 10:25
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

The "suppressed vs non-suppressed" conversation is one of apples and cheeseburgers.  Once you start shooting suppressed, you'll shun all forms of shooting rude.

On the part about 800 yards, it isn't about the 800 yard shot alone, it is about the point-blank capabilities extending out to 800 yards if needed - without moving to a different weapon.

If you consider a possible survival scenario that sees you leaving your house and covering open ground, AR15 becomes a bit less persuasive, especially if AR10 is an option.  Is the gun heavier: a bit.  Is ammo heavier per round: yes.  Does my AR10 exceed your AR15 in kill radius: yes.  And for me, that is the game-changer.  Short of that, yes, AR15 in caliber of choice will suffice.

Military and police units deploy with weapons that cover CQB to long-ish range, there is good reason for that.  I see the AR10 as having massive benefit over AR15 with only modest downside (increased weight, less common spare parts.)

All this, of course, is less important on the local gun range.  Stay off all 2-ways ranges and away from hunting and this is as inconsequential as inconsequential gets.

By all means, continue the discourse, the topic is worthy of thought.


And Koshkin sucks.


Carry on.


but, I like the tripod on that .458...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 10:38
Yea, I noticed that too.

I bet on a range in California, ILya is medium pimp'in.  I live in the free state of Texas and still have people gawk at gear.  In Cali, he is probably roughly equivalent to a Norse god of war.

Or something.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 11:24
First, to get the requisite mud slinging out of the way: Rancid Coolaid sucks.

Now that we have taken care of that...

RC, I do not think we are in that much of a disagreement.  You get the same type of handling and speed out of your AR-10 as I get out of the Grendel.  That is probably due to better training and availability of equipment that helps tame the gun: suppressor, etc.  I do not have that option, so I stick with the peppiest gun/caliber that allows me to stay reasonably quick for follow-up shots.  The rest of your argument sorta devolves to "mine is bigger than yours" and that is not terribly educational.  Leaving the house and covering open ground with an ability to shoot something at 800 yards with proper terminal effect is undoubtedly less effective with the Grendel than 308.  However, the whole 800 yards business does not excite me too much, so that is not a requirement for me even though the Grendel can be stretched out there if needed.  Depending on the bullet in questions, 6.5Grendel has about the same energy at 600 yards as 308 has at 800 yards. I can live with that.

Until The Fix gets here, the Grendel remains my "if I could only have one" gun, but I re-evaluate that regularly.

On two way ranges: I make it a point to stay away from those and routinely recommend that to others.

On hunting: Grendel works fine on most things this side of large bears and bison.  Marginal on elk, but I distinctly recall Les Baer shooting an elk with the Grendel from 400 yards or so.  Not the shot I would take, but it can be done.  Generally, for the distances I restrict myself to, Grendel works fine, but 458SOCOM is a better choice.  Or I could simply take my 280Rem boltgun and be done with it.   

I'll address the rest later.

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
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Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 11:32
We agree on most things, but cannot agree on everything, how would that be interesting?

All good here, carry on.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 17:54
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin

Are you using the AR10 B magazines that are basically modified M14 magazines?
I am using the Gen I or As. I do have some Bs but I haven't used them.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/21/2017 at 19:41
To wrap up:

KB, it is a 458 on a tripod, not a tripod on the 458.  The tripod is Varavon Short Baby (that is really the name) with the SSP-1 cradle from Precision Rifle Solutions.  It is not as sophisticated as Hog Saddle and the rest of the stuff PRS people use, but, then again, neither am I.  It works fine for my purposes and together with the short tripod makes for a very sturdy shooting rest that lives in my car.  It is also easy to velcro to my backpack for a field expedient shooting rest.

RC, there are plenty of well armed people in CA (all looking for a way out of here), but as far as general California population goes, I rank way above an average Norse God in terms of looking scary.  

ILya


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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 00:19
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

To wrap up:

KB, it is a 458 on a tripod, not a tripod on the 458.  The tripod is Varavon Short Baby (that is really the name) with the SSP-1 cradle from Precision Rifle Solutions.  It is not as sophisticated as Hog Saddle and the rest of the stuff PRS people use, but, then again, neither am I.  It works fine for my purposes and together with the short tripod makes for a very sturdy shooting rest that lives in my car.  It is also easy to velcro to my backpack for a field expedient shooting rest.

RC, there are plenty of well armed people in CA (all looking for a way out of here), but as far as general California population goes, I rank way above an average Norse God in terms of looking scary.  

ILya

merely an identification that they were "together".  I have the same SSP-1 on the PRS medium tripod.  I also have a couple of Porta-Aim Vanguard tripods 7.5-13 inch adjustable. I like them better than bipods.


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 12:23
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Here is an example of a CA-legal featureless AR (this is my 458).




Were I a Kali "subject," that right there would singularly make me move out of the state...tomorrow...with or without a job, housing, or any other plans secured.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 12:25
...And, AR10s suck!

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 14:54
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

...And, AR10s suck!
So says the guy that says, "you always need another gun", or something like that.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 15:42
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

...And, AR10s suck!
So says the guy that says, "you always need another gun", or something like that.

Well, he did not advise you against buying one...

I think the point he is going to make is that you ned to acquire several AR-10s and AR-15s to conduct a proper evaluation. 

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 15:45
Of course we all need multiple AR's because one data point is not a trend.  Big Smile

I'm trying to convince my wife right now that I NEED a tommy gun or else life as we know it will end. 


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 16:13
I'm an enabler, so I'd never talk anyone out of buying most any projectile launcher of reasonably good quality. I just happen to like AR15s much better than 10s for a variety of reasons. Besides, given today's selection of bullets, there isn't hardly a scenario one could conjure up where a 7.62 bullet stops a beating heart yet a 6.5 bullet launched from a Grendel bounces off the same living being. I'm a bolt action guy to begin with, and ARs are not my favored platform, though I do enjoy playing with them just because variety is the spice of life.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 16:51
I agree with that.

As far as semi-autos go, AR-15 is my platform of choice.  It did not start out that way, but it slowly won me over.

ILya 


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 17:01
Originally posted by sucker76 sucker76 wrote:

Of course we all need multiple AR's because one data point is not a trend.  Big Smile

I'm trying to convince my wife right now that I NEED a tommy gun or else life as we know it will end. 


I have a 40 cal SBR upper, it is great fun. A tommy gun would be fun, why not get a 45 cal upper for an AR?

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: April/22/2017 at 23:53
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by sucker76 sucker76 wrote:

Of course we all need multiple AR's because one data point is not a trend.  Big Smile

I'm trying to convince my wife right now that I NEED a tommy gun or else life as we know it will end. 


I have a 40 cal SBR upper, it is great fun. A tommy gun would be fun, why not get a 45 cal upper for an AR?



I should.  I shoot my cousins Oly 45 AR and its a hoot.  I just acquired a 9mm AR.  The Tommy gun has just been my unicorn.  I've always wanted one. 

This statement kinda derails this thread so I'll get back on the subject of AR10's.  If I'm not shooting Mil surplus ammo will any AR15 trigger work in an AR10?  I understand the 308 specific triggers are only for added force to ignite hard primers. 


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 10:14
AR-15 trigger in an AR-10… some people do it and you are correct that as long as you are not shooting military ammo, you SHOULD be OK. 

I wouldn't do it… why put a non-spec trigger in your AR-10?  I know people who have done it, and as far as I know have had no problems.  But I wouldn't do it.  Even if I gave up shooting mil ammo, I would stick with an AR-10 trigger.  Personal thing… if you are comfortable with it, use no mil-spec primed ammo… should not be an issue.  However, one of the good reasons to have an AR-10 is to be able to use all forms of .308/7.62x51 ammo… at least to me.

But I don't like AR's much anyway...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 14:49
Thanks.  I found the 308ar site last night and that's been helping me weed through the differences in AR10 and LR308 etc.  I am going to build a 6.5 Creedmoor and reloading so military 308 primers aren't an issue.  There is a larger variety of triggers for the AR15. 


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 16:04
Having built a few of each now, I recommend you go with an AR10 trigger. As for AR10 vs LAR308, I've always gone with AR10, but no reason for that, just luck.

Figure out what you want the gun to do well, and build the gun to that end. I've done 18" and 20" and 16"; I now have the 16" and couldn't be happier. I lose a bit of velocity, but I don't pick up that gun if I need to make a 600 yard shot. But in tight spaces, it moves quickly, and at 20 rounds of 168-gr ass-kicking, I have a bit of confidence.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: nralifer
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 20:45
Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin

Well, finally got around to doing some preliminary loading using the Badlands 155.5 gr Palma bullet we make.  Used new Hornady 308 brass, CCI large rifle match primers, and settled on 48 grains of CFE223 with a COL 2.810.  Out of my M1A they fed without an issue, had an MV of 2879 fps.  That bullet has a G1BC of 0.515, and under standard conditions will stay supersonic to 1300 yds.  My gun has a 22 inch barrel and a muzzle brake.  Have not shot these for groups yet.  The load is 1.5 grain less than the listed minimum in the Hodgdon 2016 Annual Manual.  In the manual pressure for the minimum load is 50,900 PSI.  Stability at 2880 fps under standard conditions from a 1:11 twist barrel is 1.417


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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 21:26
With that bullet, barrel length and COL try IMR 4895 at 42.7grs and 42.9 or Varget at 43.5 and 43.8 and compare accuracy with the loads you have. Trends show that the groups should be impressive.

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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: nralifer
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 21:40
Will do. What primer and brass do you suggest?

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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: April/23/2017 at 22:27
The primers you are running are fine. Brass is what you are willing to invest. For initial load test I try to stick with fired brass up to 3 loads. After that it goes in the hunting/trigger time bag. New brass (mostly) is not so consistent. For load testing and competitions I run new brass thru case trimming and sizing dies if I am forced to use it in a pinch.

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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: nralifer
Date Posted: April/25/2017 at 06:28
Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

The primers you are running are fine. Brass is what you are willing to invest. For initial load test I try to stick with fired brass up to 3 loads. After that it goes in the hunting/trigger time bag. New brass (mostly) is not so consistent. For load testing and competitions I run new brass thru case trimming and sizing dies if I am forced to use it in a pinch.

Finally have 20 plus once fired cases.  Because of potential chamber length differences between military and commercial 308 Win chambers neck sizing the brass as you suggest makes sense. Next round of testing will be with neck sized and trimmed brass. I debarred the flash holes before the first firing.


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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 09:32
Well I got all the parts yesterday and put it together last night.  Hopefully I can go shoot it on my lunch break today.  They sure a big compared to an AR-15.  I need to get a hanging scale so I can weight it.   




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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 10:18
What barrel length and weight did you use?
You think that's heavy, try a SASS AR 10 with a 3-15x42 or 3-18x50 and QD mount.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 10:22
18". Its a mid weight barrel. Though probably on the lighter side.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 10:30
After the AR10 SASS, I picked up a DPMS GII Recon AR10 in a gun shop and almost put it on lay-a-way for a new deer rifle. Then I remembered I wasn't planning on hunting that year.

What do you think of the balance of the rifle with and without the suppressor?


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 11:02
Its noticeably front end heavy because of that.  It weights 16 or 17 ozs, so it adds a whole extra lb right at the end.  That part sucks.  My other suppressor weights 10oz is 7" long, but it is a 6.5 caliber.  This one adds 9 inches to length.  I love shooting with suppressors, but hate how much weight and length they add.    

The barrel weight was 2lb 10oz

If I get to shoot it today, I will try some off hand with on and off and see how much it affects it. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 11:18
My 308 AR is a 16" and it swings okay with a can (thunderbeast 30P or gemtech 300WM) but isn't nearly as quick as a suppressed SBR.  Then again, I am not clearing corners with it, so I can accept it.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 12:11
Good point. Its purpose will mostly be a utv gun and hunting gun. So it ought to be fine.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 16:22
Well I went and shot it and it is a bit under gassed.  So much so that it did not run the bolt back at all.  And of course I forgot the hex wrench to adjust the gas block.  It must be closed up tight.  So we will try again tomorrow. 

The Elftmann trigger is nice, absolutely no creep and it really does break like a glass rod. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/26/2017 at 19:07
And overlube the bolt.

Sometimes underlubed causes the bolt to grind.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/27/2017 at 16:36
Gas block was closed up tight.  I turned it out to max and started to shoot, and would turn it in a bit after each shot.  It has a detent so it turns 1/4 turn at a time between stops.  4.5 turns out is max.  I ended up 2 turns out.  There was as definite recoil difference from 4.5 and the 2 turns out.  At two turns out it would lock the bolt back on an open mag with the ammo I was using.  Federal GMM 175 grain.  Once I got the gas blokk adjusted I fired 15 rounds and it functioned perfect.       


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: April/28/2017 at 13:09
Don't you have a gas bypass gas block?  I watched a video how to adjust it and I think at 4.5 turns the bypass is closed and the gas port is wide open.  More than 4.5 turns should open the bypass. 


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/28/2017 at 13:49
Yeah, I don't think I explained that very well.  Two turns out from the 4.5.  It made sense in my head as I wrote it.  But I can see reading it again it sounded wrong. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: April/28/2017 at 13:54
Gotcha

Love the rifle.


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: April/28/2017 at 14:11
I just read some more info on it.  Some people have got it out 12 turns and it still is locking bolt back.  I am going to have to tinker with it more, maybe I can go a lot more.  Also seeing some saying that it will cause a velocity decrease because of the gas bleed off.  Not sure how I feel about that.  If that ends up being true, I may just use it like a regular adjustable gas block.  Have to get the chrono out one of these days too it appears. 

I put a VXR patrol on it to try out.  Not sure yet how I want to scope it.  I am kindof wishing I would have bought the 14" rail instead of the 16".  But it is what it is now.  One thing about it, when you set off the round, you know it is putting something big down range.  Not a pipsqueak .223 round.  




-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/28/2017 at 15:45
Yeah, with my 223 SASS, I can watch the bullet impact a 400yds and tell where I'm hitting, can't do that with the 308.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/29/2017 at 06:49

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I just read some more info on it.  Some people have got it out 12 turns and it still is locking bolt back.  I am going to have to tinker with it more, maybe I can go a lot more.  Also seeing some saying that it will cause a velocity decrease because of the gas bleed off.  Not sure how I feel about that.  If that ends up being true, I may just use it like a regular adjustable gas block.  Have to get the chrono out one of these days too it appears. 

I put a VXR patrol on it to try out.  Not sure yet how I want to scope it.  I am kindof wishing I would have bought the 14" rail instead of the 16".  But it is what it is now.  One thing about it, when you set off the round, you know it is putting something big down range.  Not a pipsqueak .223 round.  


Yes, the 16" looks "overdone"...



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/29/2017 at 09:38
Actually, I prefer the longest rail possible, helps in offhand (assuming you run your off hand as far forward as possible to drive the muzzle), and it lets you mount a bipod near the muzzle for bench work. With the can on it, it will look better.

There are several benefits to a long rail and few if any downsides.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/29/2017 at 10:58
I just don't like the look of it...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: April/29/2017 at 11:18
I'm not a huge fan of the look either, but it is easier to shoot well. If it is to be a show piece, shorten that rail and maybe put some glitter on it, or maybe unicorn and rainbow stickers. Yea, that'd look sweet!

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/29/2017 at 15:35
It isn't mine, so it doesn't really matter, but I don't believe a two inch shorter rail will have a significant impact.  Major advantage of the really long rail I see is the long sight radius for the irons. 

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/30/2017 at 12:11
I think RC Made a good point about driving the gun. ST's rifle looks like most 3 gunners rifles do these days, as they drive their muzzles onto the target. Me on the other hand, can't break the habit of holding the forearm closer to the receiver, and would prefer the 14 inch forearm to save weight.
Looks got nothing to do with it. However some stripper dust (glitter) and unicorn stickers might change the looks of it.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: April/30/2017 at 13:09

You guys crack me up...



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: May/01/2017 at 11:35
I like a guard short enough to leave the gas block exposed so when you're shooting without gloves you really know you're alive. (Or that you still know how to swear).

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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/01/2017 at 17:48
Everybody... I mean EVERYBODY... knows... the glitter goes on the bullets...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living



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