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Help with S&B 3-12x50 PM II/LP MOA Reticle?

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Tactical Scopes
Forum Description: Police and military tools of the trade
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=43838
Printed Date: December/13/2017 at 16:38


Topic: Help with S&B 3-12x50 PM II/LP MOA Reticle?
Posted By: m1911
Subject: Help with S&B 3-12x50 PM II/LP MOA Reticle?
Date Posted: January/14/2017 at 08:21
I (think I) really want to buy a pair of this exact Scope:
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/3-12x50-pm-iilp.html

Preface:  
I shoot 7.62 x 51 exclusivly at shorter ranges.  I prefer MOA scopes because it's what I own and familiar with....so makes instant mental calculations a breeze too.  
I shoot M-14's like most folks plink with a .22....point and shoot.
I NEVER dial-in shots....simply hold-over instead.
I do however take scopes on-and-off rifles and re-calibrate zero with MOA clicks....easy...
I currently own several Vortex Razor-HD-Gen-II's in 1x6 and 3x18, etc and LOVE them.
I just want to buy something in the 10 power range.....I've even considered FIXED 10-power.

While this S&B scope has MOA turrets available, it does NOT have MOA reticle offerings.
(I e-mailed S&B and received a very courteous and prompt response, but the answer was no.)
Questions:

1)  Would you even consider MOA turrets with perhaps a P3L or P4L-fein....knowing those reticles are hashed out in MIL?

2)  Which reticle do you like the best?

3)  For this kind of money, should I skip the purchase altogether, or perhaps get them in MIL/MIL instead?

4)  Would you buy a SINGLE turn (32-MOA) or DOUBLE turn (56-MOA) Elevation turret knowing it's only 12 power used at shorter ranges?

I can buy a US-Optics 1.8x10 Bravo in MOA/MOA for half the S&B and they offer exactly what I've described.but want to own a S&B...or two...

Thank you!










Replies:
Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/14/2017 at 14:48
What are you going to do with them, stay at shorter ranges?

I've run (but not owned) S&B, they are great at lesser ranges, that's their real market niche, but others have caught up to what the S&B was 15 years ago.

Define "shorter range", please.

I run gen 2 vortex 3-18 too and really like it.
The USO 1.8-10 tunnels, it's probably more a 3-10, if that doesn't bother you, carry on. It doesn't have the short range parallax though.

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/14/2017 at 22:43
Thanks RC....
I shoot mostly from 100 to 250 yards....paper, steel, and other objects like clay pigeons laying on the burm.
The 1x6's are very good and all I really need.
The 3x18 is really nice but more than I need plus is much larger in size.
I'm thinking about buying a nice GAP Gladius and using the 3x18 Razor on it.....If I join the club with the 600 yard range.
Also for potential use on AR-10 & 15.
I wish Vortex made a Razor in 10x or 12x.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 09:33
For 100-600 yard shooting, S&B is a good scope; however, there is not much particularly challenging at 100-250, so not sure why you want an S&B, unless you just want one.

In the end, get what you want, else you will be buying again.

On known distance ranges with know target sizes, MOA works fine, most people just think in inches and translate to adjustments. I have seen a few math mistakes using MOA and inches under stress. I learned with mil reticle and MOA turrets, and mil/mil is a huge advantage.

On targets of unknown size at range, "inch" corrections get tricky, and thinking in radians helps immensely.

Last thing, get matching reticle/turret for sure, and FFP.

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 10:00

Here is U.S. Optics explanation of "tunneling" and it is probably the best I've seen:

A : To achieve the lowest magnification level the rear erector lens is positioned furthest away from the first focal plane at the front opening of the erector tube. At this distance there is a known angle from the center focal point of the rear erector lens that extends through the widest point of the first focal plane diameter. The length and diameter of the erector tube are known dimensions that define the field of view from the lowest to highest magnification setting.

A mask is a disk that reduces the aperture of the erector tube to mitigate vignetting or “tunnel vision” effect. It can also be used to make an off center reticle appear to be centered. All critical optical and mechanical components in U.S. Optics scopes are precisely aligned to utilize the entire field of view based on the erector tube dimensions for all scope models without having to use a mask.

By not using a mask, the tunnel vision effect is apparent but marginal. The benefit to not using a mask is on the high end of magnification, which happens to be where the largest field of view possible benefits the shooter. For example, and depending on the scope model, a mask will reduce field of view at 4X magnification by 5%. At 17X magnification field of view is reduced by much as 15-20%. The trade off for eliminating the tunnel vision/vignetting effect on the low end of magnification yields a marginal performance improvement in field of view while sacrificing at the high end of magnification a significant portion of the field of view while acquiring a sight picture of a target at medium to long ranges.

I, personally, don't care that much about tunneling.  It CAN be irritating in a high dollar optic, but when you understand the mechanics behind it and the fact that the brain can be trained to ignore it, doesn't seem like much of an "ado".  All a matter of what you are willing to do to obtain maximum performance.  Tunneling is a "visual effect" that has no impact on actual performance.  You can find the point at which tunneling disappears and never adjust your scope below that power... for the 1.8-10 USO, it is slightly above 2x, so 1.8 to 2.3 you "lose" about 0.5x... you'll never notice it.  As a matter of fact, USO will put a "stop" in at the "no tunnel point" so you never have to deal with it.   An advantage of "custom made" optics. 



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 10:25
Thanks guys....

RC....I agree with everything you are saying....including the (non) need and my philosophy-of-use for S&B....I just simply want to own a couple of them.

Maybe I'll switch to MIL/MIL and get the S&B I described with a P4L-fein reticle.

Not to derail my own thread....but what about a US-Optics FIXED-10-power ST-10?
They aren't offering them anymore, but I'm guessing the dealers with inventory will drop the price to around $1,000.
That may be perfect for my type of shooting (currently with M14's).

I shoot my Razors on 6-power 99% of the time on those rifles by the way.

If I buy a GAP Rifle, I'd use the Razor-3x18, or buy a S&B (4x16).





Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 10:59
Have you scoped an M-14? If not, it can be a challenge. Voice of experience.

The old USO 10Xs are not bad, but why get a fixed 10X? If you are building an old replica M40 and can't find an Unertl, I get it; otherwise, new stuff is just so much more useful, especially for a guy that spends most time at 6X.

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 11:32
Here is what I use now....LRB's with M25 style Receiver/Rails....
Vortex Razor-1x6's as well as the 3x18:



As much as I'd like to buy a nice M40A1 from GA Precision, as well as an LMT-MWS.308 or LaRue-PredatOBR.308, I'll probably just order another LRB when they return from SHOT this week.....for a third M14.

I LOVE the darn things!

Regarding Philosophy-Of-Use.....Here in Maine it's so densely wooded that you can barely SEE a quarter mile in any direction.....let alone SHOOT past 200 yards.




Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 11:48
RC...

If I buy this Rifle sometime this year, I'd "probably" get the S&B 4x16-PM-II-LP....either in 42 or 50mm.
It would also mean joining and having to drive to get to a 600 yard range.
However, I'm SURE it would see way more use at 200 yards....which seems over-kill.

PS:  What do you think of this Rifle, if you don't mind me asking?
PSS:  It's winter here and I feel like BUYING something!
Big Grin




Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 15:40
I have a sentimental attachment to the old M40s, but I don't one for anything but nostalgia.

In the end, without the emotional attachment, it is a mid-weight 308 Remington - not my first choice for anything any more.

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/15/2017 at 16:34
Thanks and I was afraid you might say that....
They seem pretty large....especially for the shooting I would do.
That's why the GAP Gladius at 16 1/2" on a Manners T2 (not adjustable) stock seems like a better fit.



Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/29/2017 at 06:58
UPDATE:

I bought this LRB M14 the other day and have decided on a Schmidt & Bender 10x42 fixed power PM-II.
Am I crazy?



Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/29/2017 at 17:29
What about having George build a Crusader based on a McMillan A5 stock with the GA Precision Templar action cut barrel length to  20 in barrel and add a Smith Vortex flash suppressor chambered  in a 7mm08. Then putting a US Optics B10   1.8 to 10 with MIL MIL with the Horus H25 reticle  or step up to the B17  3.2-17 and run the Horus H102 reticle? And since they make Badger just have him mount the optic so its ready out the door. I might change the camo pattern I had them do MARPAT but doing multicam would be cool. Devil

My first thought is if you hold over rather than dial in what difference does it make if you are running the highly preferable to most people MIL MIL rather than MOA based dials? You might find you like it.


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/30/2017 at 15:42
Have you found one in stock somewhere?

I looked around and found a few on optics pages, about $2k, I would advise against it.  I do not think you will find anything unique to that scope that justifies that price.  If you found a smoke'in deal on one, carry on.

Sorry to complicate things, but I wouldn't put a 10X on something unless it was for a very specific reason, and it sounds like you do not have that reason.

Then again, if you want an S&B, go for it.

It is a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart.


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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: January/30/2017 at 18:54
Thanks RC....
My usage is paper & steel plinking at 200 yards mostly....sometimes 150 or 100 also.
I may have the occasion to go to 300, but not much.

I see them for 2k also, and this has less to do with the price than:
1)  Comparing to the 3~12x50 PM-II, the 10x42 FIXED power has a 30mm tube
2)  The Objective is 42mm a opposed to 50mm
3)  The entire scope will be a little lower profile on this rifle....but I'm probably obsessing over nothing.
4)  I just simply WANT to try a Schmidt & Bender

I'll probably put my Vortex Razor HD-Gen-II 3~18x50 on in the meantime.

Thanks!






Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/30/2017 at 19:17
Let us know how it goes.

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Posted By: m1911
Date Posted: February/09/2017 at 12:07
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Let us know how it goes.


Update....
I bought a PAIR of them!
I really like the simplicity, clarity, and apparent ruggedness.
I also bought the Badger USMC-DMR Steel Rings at 1.031" high.
Ranges report to follow.
Thanks!



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