Print Page | Close Window

New To Distance Shooting

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=41631
Printed Date: March/28/2024 at 11:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: New To Distance Shooting
Posted By: NW425
Subject: New To Distance Shooting
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 15:57

Hey everyone!


I am new to the "long range" shooting world (300yards and potentially up to 500yards), and just recently picked up a Ruger American in .308 win


I have been looking around, long and hard, for an optic that will allow me to engage from 100-500 yards at my range. I'm not looking to spend a whole heck of a lot (under $300) on a starter scope. I know people will tell me to save, but with all of the car issues I've been having $300 is what I have to spend and not more.


From reading online I have found 3 potential budget scope contenders.

_____________________________________________________________________

1) Millett 4-16x50 TRS-1

http://swfa.com/Millett-4-16x50-TRS-1-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P8812.aspx


I like the idea of variable zoom. It will allow me to adequately see targets at a variety of ranges. I know you really don't need to go as high as 16 for the ranges I am going for, but I like the idea of having it should I ever want to go out to 750 yards.

_____________________________________________________________________

2) SWFA SS 10x42

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P499.aspx


I have heard nothing but great reviews for this optic. While it doesn't have the adjustable variations, it appears (from the reviews) to be made of great glass. I am a little skeptical that 10x will do for 500 yard target engagements, it (should?) be adequate for learning to shoot at 300? They have 12x42, 16x42 and 20x42 options as well, but I will be shooting as close as 100 yards and I don't know if that is too much magnification for that range.

_____________________________________________________________________

3) Primary Arms 4-14x44

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_New_4_14X44_Front_Focal_Plane_Scope_p/pa4-14xffp-orion.htm


Once again, I like the idea of variable zoom, but I'm not sure how I feel about the primary arms brand. However, I am currently very familiar with their ACSS reticle as I run their 2.5x prism sight on my AR15 (100-300 yard engagement gun).

_____________________________________________________________________

Also, the Ruger American came with scope rings, should I use those or upgrade to "better" rings?

Lastly I'd like to add that I am more comfortable with using MOA over Mils. I could, however, use Mils if the right scope came up with a bit of practice.


What are all of your thoughts on my potential scope options?




Replies:
Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 17:26
A few comments:

1) 10x is more than enough for 500 yards unless you are shooting mosquitoes.
2) Out of three scope you mentioned, only the SS is suitable for precision shooting with turret dialing.  The other two are at their best when you do not plan to use the adjustments (frankly, they are at their best sitting in a safe, but that would simply be a mean thing to say).
3) Supplied rings are not very good and I would probably start by getting a good quality single piece base and rings.

ILya



-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 17:28
Go with the SWFA.

ILya provided words of wisdom...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 17:40
Thanks for the fast replys!

To be frank I am leaning toward the Millet 4-16x50 right now. I've always been one to use the Kentucky Holdover method to shoot. I know turrent shooting can be more accurate, but is there a steep learning curve?

Another factor is due to the fact that half of the time the 200+ yard ranges are closed and I am stuck with the 50 and 100 yard rifle ranges.

Also, can you point me in the direction of an affordable "good quality single piece base and rings" for my Ruger American




Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 18:50
Base:
http://swfa.com/EGW-Picatinny-Rail-1-Piece-Scope-Mount-P79797.aspx - http://swfa.com/EGW-Picatinny-Rail-1-Piece-Scope-Mount-P79797.aspx

Rings:
http://swfa.com/Vortex-Viper-30mm-Rings-P60996.aspx - http://swfa.com/Vortex-Viper-30mm-Rings-P60996.aspx

This is about as low as I would go in terms of pricing for the  base and rings.

As far as scope choice goes, there is no downside to a fixed power scope for your range shooting application.

If you are new at this and on a budget, get a scope that is low on features, but high on fundamentals: solid mechanical quality, solid optical quality, reliable adjustments.

That is all you need to get started.  The other two scopes on your list have a lot of features, but skip on the fundamentals.

ILya




-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:13
Right. I'll definitely sleep on it to for a few days to consider my options. I've heard the SS warranty was great. I just want to be able to accurately see my targets out to 300-500 yards. I've only ever used a 4x at 100 yards so I'm not too sure on how much the 10x would help. Would going with the 12x be acceptable?


Also, do you all recommend MOA or Mrads for the SS? Like I said, I've always shot MOA so I guess that would be better for me. 

But it appears the 12x42 is only available in Mrads which I'm not totally familiar with, but like I said, I would be willing to learn.




Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:15
Also, the Ruger American I got has ring bases already. I'm not sure if they're replaceable, here's the picture of what it looks like.

Also, would the "low" rings be okay for the rifle even with the 42mm objective lens?

http://www.gunsumerreports.com/Ruger_American_Rifle/Ruger_American_Rifle_011.JPG


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:16
Millet has lost a lot of "quality" in recent years.  I use to like them, would NOT buy one of the new ones.  Everyone I know who bought recently has divested themselves of the Millet and bought another brand.

Primary Arms I know nothing of… and, quite frankly, have no interest in learning of...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:29
The two piece bases are attached to the receiver via screws, so they can be taken off and replaced.

Low rings I linked will be high enough for the SS.

Between MOA and mrad, the turrets need to be matched to the reticle.  Personally, I find mrad to be a more intuitive system, but to each his own.  Mrad is far more commonly available, so if you are just starting out, going with that is a little simpler.

As far as magnification goes, we tend to overscope our rifles.  Your drive to go to a higher magnification is, as harsh as it may sound, a rookie mistake.

The ability to see your target depends on the distance to the target, the size of the target, the optical quality of the scope and the magnification of the scope.

The ability to see with a riflescope is very heavily dependent on the quality of that scope.  I use a 4X Elcan on my AR and can comfortably see eight inch see plates at 500 yards.  Comfortably enough to be able to aim at different portions of the plate if I so choose.

I most certainly would not be able to do it with a $100 4x scope.  The Elcan is about $1400 and despite the moderate magnification, it is more than sufficient.

My 10x42 SS sits on my 8mm Mauser these days, and I do not shoot this rifle very far out, but it has gone out to 700 yards on 18 inch plates without any issues.

I suspect I would be easily able to aim at 8" plates at at 700 yards as well had my range been aequipped with them.

Conversely, going to too high of a magnification makes everything else about shooting harder: it is harder to get behind the scope, it is more fatiguing, it is more distracting to to minor tremors being amplified, etc.

There is a reason why 10x magnification has been such a staple for tactical shooting for so long.  It is a very good way to start.

ILya





-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: JLud
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:34
I was going to suggest the fixed 6 ss for the intended range. I believe if you call Ruger they will swap your rings to 30 mm.

-------------
That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:36
Okay thanks for the knowledge about that.

The more and more I read, the more and more I think I should be going with the SS 10x. 


Is there anything I need to know about installing the picatinny rail and/or scope?

I know the scope should be level when installing but anything else? Do I locktite anything? The rings to the receiver base? The nuts holding the scope to the rings?


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:37
I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 20:46
The key is adjusting to shooting conditions (mirage, wind etc).  On higher recoil calibers at moderate ranges (400 to 800 yards) I find it much easier to call shots (on competitions with no spotters allowed) at a lower power.  Last shoot I did (100 to 1000 yards) I shot the whole match at 15x except one round at 12x. 

I would say that if you want to go higher on power, make sure you get good glass.  24x on bad glass is like looking through a black paper 2 feet in front of the scope.


-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 21:33
Is there any benefit to using a 1913 rail over a weaver base?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 21:55
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

Dan, for how long have you been doing precision shooting?

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: JLud
Date Posted: May/16/2015 at 22:21
Weaver super slam 2-10x42 with ebx reticle in your range, better scope than the cost in my eyes for that price range.

-------------
That thing on the left....my old ride, some days I miss her.


Posted By: biggreen747
Date Posted: May/17/2015 at 09:16
Just my opinion but a Ruger American is a good entry level hunting gun, not a precision rifle. I have one for my daughter in 7-08 with a 3-9 Conquest. It's great for her and her uses. With the right loads it is certainaly capable of hitting targets at 500yds but not sitting at a bench putting multiple rounds down range. It's just not built for that. The 10xSS would be more than sufficient for occasional shooting to 500 but the 6xSS would probably be more appropriate for the rifle. A good quality 3-x hunting scope with a drop reticle would probably suit your needs as well.

Lower power of higher quality beats cheap high magnification any time.

-------------
We measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw.


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 19:42
The more and more I read, the more and more I think I should be going with the SS 10x. 

Is there any benefit to using a 1913 rail over a weaver base?
Is there anything I need to know about installing the picatinny rail and/or scope?

I know the scope should be level when installing but anything else? Do I locktite anything? The rings to the receiver base? The nuts holding the scope to the rings?




Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 19:52
A single piece picatinny base usually offers a better aligned clamping surface for the scope than two piece bases.  

I loctite the rings that connect the base to the receiver, but usually avoid loctiting anything else.  I do prefer to use a torque wrench to make sure I tighten the screws to the right torque.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 19:56
A quality 1913 base allows you more flexibility in mounting a scope. It is also a bit stronger, due to the deeper lugs found on them. My suggestion would be not to go cheap on rings and bases, they cause more headaches than they save money. If you need a less expensive option, these do well on my son's 308.
http://swfa.com/Talley-Lightweight-Aluminum-30mm-Scopemount-P8385.aspx - http://swfa.com/Talley-Lightweight-Aluminum-30mm-Scopemount-P8385.aspx
And since they mount directly to the rifle, there is on less set of screws to worry about loosening.
 As far as mounting the scope goes, I would use a door frame in your house as reference to get the reticle plumb. (The 10 yard focus of the SS 10x really helps in this regard as most people can find 30 feet inside...)


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 21:26
Oh, by the way all, I kind of made an impulse purchase on the rifle today!


I wound up taking home a mossberg patriot!

I found an amazing deal on it at the local gun store ($264.99), which just so happens to be $0.01 below dealer cost. It's a newer rifle, but I have heard good things about it, and if not, I can easily sell it for a minimal loss.


With the new rifle in mind, what rings should I be getting? I may begin to start hunting so I am leaning toward the 4-14x44 Primary Arms scope. The mil-dots are on the FFP, there's a side parallax adjustment, AND I can get it at manufactorer's cost (plus S+H).



What bases/rings should I use for the PA 4-14x44 on the Mossberg Patriot?


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 21:43
Which model and caliber did you get?

 And I will agree with everybody else that has already posted in this thread, and recommend against low price, high optioned Chinese junk scopes...


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:13
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

Dan, for how long have you been doing precision shooting?

ILya
I started shooting with the Army 1000 Meter Team in 1972.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:16
So maybe you might be a bit more used to lining up natural point of aim, and dealing with the heart beat vibrations of a high mag scope? Especially over a new shooter?

-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:36
BillyBurl2, the commentator above is not the OP on this thread :)

I am used to pistol shooting a lot more than rifle. 

And I just got the standard model in .308 win



Still leaning toward the PA scope. I know the "Chinese" import and "high magnification" won't be ideal, but I really do not want a fixed power :/




Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:43
Good luck too you then, sir. My money is way to important to risk on maybes...

-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: Brightsparc
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 08:28
I too am new to distance shooting having been a pistol person my whole adult life. I now shoot 600 yards at least once a week.

The SWFA SS 10x is best value. I have a 12x, but it is for 600 to 1000 yards. It is the highest power optic I own.

A couple observation I have made:

1x power per 100 yards. More is only better to a point. I was shooting a SS 1-6x at 600 yards yesterday. Consistently banging 2/3rd IDPA steel. Most people I shoot with will use 14x maximum at 600 yards. 10x out to 600 yards is more than enough and 6x will work all day.

Variable is always lowest power or highest, seldom in the middle. Most of my variables stay on highest setting - unless 1x or except for the next observation.

Lower cost not used at highest X. I have a couple less expensive variables - Nikon, PA and Burris. 2-7, I set to 6 and 2-8, I set to 7 or 6, etc. At the highest setting the sight picture and eye relief are not ideal (at least for me). FFP and $$$ optics I do not have the same issue. But, at $300 ....

Turrets. When you are with others, being able to dial in - and out - 3 tenth of a mil or favor 7 clicks in one direction or another quickly is very convenient. Beyond 300 yards, wind becomes ever more important and Kentucky windage harder to swag (especially without a proper reticle). Don't need to use, but if you find you need them later....

I spent money learning and have just recently tossed a couple cheap tubes.

Enjoy the journey!


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 13:30
Originally posted by NW425 NW425 wrote:

Oh, by the way all, I kind of made an impulse purchase on the rifle today!


I wound up taking home a mossberg patriot!

I found an amazing deal on it at the local gun store ($264.99), which just so happens to be $0.01 below dealer cost. It's a newer rifle, but I have heard good things about it, and if not, I can easily sell it for a minimal loss.


With the new rifle in mind, what rings should I be getting? I may begin to start hunting so I am leaning toward the 4-14x44 Primary Arms scope. The mil-dots are on the FFP, there's a side parallax adjustment, AND I can get it at manufactorer's cost (plus S+H).



What bases/rings should I use for the PA 4-14x44 on the Mossberg Patriot?

Since you saved money on the rifle, I suggest you spend a little more money on the scope.  

Primary Arms scope you are looking at is a well-featured paperweight.

If you do plan to hunt, a variable is a good idea and the best one for your situation would be SWFA SS 3-9x42.  It will do everything you need for both hunting and precision shooting.

Buy once, cry once.

ILya




-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 14:22
SS 3-9x is a GREAT choice. Not sure the Mil Dot reticle is ideal for big game, (at least where I am), but it sure covers a lot of ground. 



-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Brightsparc
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 15:07
I also have the SS 3-9x, but it was more than $300.

Another lesson I learned the hard way. Spend more on glass than delivery system. When I finally am happy with optics, I have always spent more on the optic - definitely optic + mount - than I spent on the rifle. This does not include the cheap optics that went into a junk box.

$265 on rifle, at least $300 on optics would make sense. No regrets on the SS 3-9x I have with Voretex rings sitting on a $500 MVP .308.

At 100 yards, not so important. The farther away, the more important good optics become. Might just be 'cause I am getting old.....


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 15:34
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

Dan, for how long have you been doing precision shooting?

ILya
I started shooting with the Army 1000 Meter Team in 1972.

I think I can reasonably infer that appropriate gear for your precision shooting needs is somewhat different than that for someone new to precision shooting.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 15:39
Originally posted by Brightsparc Brightsparc wrote:

I also have the SS 3-9x, but it was more than $300.

Another lesson I learned the hard way. Spend more on glass than delivery system. When I finally am happy with optics, I have always spent more on the optic - definitely optic + mount - than I spent on the rifle. This does not include the cheap optics that went into a junk box.

$265 on rifle, at least $300 on optics would make sense. No regrets on the SS 3-9x I have with Voretex rings sitting on a $500 MVP .308.

At 100 yards, not so important. The farther away, the more important good optics become. Might just be 'cause I am getting old.....

There is no hard and fast rule on how much to spend on an optic and on the rifle.  Both should be selected to fit you application requirements.

My $500 280Rem has a $1400 scope on it.

I also have a $5500 rifle that for quite some time had a $800 on it.  I have since put a much fancier scope on that rifle, but honestly my shooting results for the most part did not get a whole lot better since all that rifle does these days is go to the range with me.  However, it makes it out to the desert with me every once in a while and when the conditions get complicated, the difference is there.  

Now, back to the original question.  The OP wants a scope that can bridge hunting and precision shooting.

That means:
-Reliable mechanics
-Decent glass
-Reasonable low light reticle visibility
-FFP reticle

That's the 3-9x42 SS.

ILya




-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:25
The SWFA scopes are far superior to the Millet and the other one.  It tracks much more accurately and its far more durable plus has many other superior features.  Tracking is this:  If you dial your SWFA to 10 mils up, it will be exactly at 10 mils up.  If you dial your Millet to 10 mils up, its probably really at 10.2 mils up or 9.8 mils up.

I'd get either the 6x42mm or the 10x42mm in patented mil-quad reticle depending on what you want to do with your rifle.

A .308 can shoot 1000-1100 yards, so if you want to shoot that far then get the 10x42mm.  

If you want to hunt with it, get the 6x42mm...  Most game is closer than 300 yards and lower mag scopes have more field of view.  You can find the game faster in your scope.

If you want to do both, I'd go with the 6x42mm; 6 mag can touch 1000 yards, and its more than enough for 500 yards.  10mag can go to 1 mile or 1760 yards no problem, but its hard to quickly find game at 200 yards in the scope.

SWFA is way better, you will regret getting the Millet or primary arms

Good luck



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:28
Originally posted by jmjoker jmjoker wrote:

  If you dial your Millet to 10 mils up, its probably really at 10.2 mils up or 9.8 mils up.


Or it might even be 10.2 mils down.  Wink  Millets blow


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:31
Welcome Joker.

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:41
Yeah, and get better rings and a one piece TPS 20 MOA scope base-  all steel not aluminum.  I suggest TPS rings though the SWFA rings are also ok.  If you get crappy rings/base, your scope will gradually move when the rifle recoils, and your zero and your accuracy will become junk.

Get the rings as low as possible without touching your barrel.  I'd go extra low TPS or low SWFA .820" high...don't attach them when you get them.  First put them on your base (without attaching them) and see if your scope clears.  If it don't clear, you can return the rings and get the next higher rings.  If you've attached them, they won't accept the return.

MILs or MOA don't matter... if you use JBM ballistics excellent and free online ballistic calculator.  You can just have the calculator compute in MILS.
Most important is that your turrets and your reticle are either both MILs or both MOA and not one in MILs and one in MOA.  This will make it much easier for you to quickly just use the reticle to adjust your shots.
Most of the SWFA scopes are reticle/turret MIL/MIL.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:47
I disagree on only getting steel.  Some of the best mounts out there these days are made of aluminum. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:52
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

SS 3-9x is a GREAT choice. Not sure the Mil Dot reticle is ideal for big game, (at least where I am), but it sure covers a lot of ground. 


Thanks Cheaptrick-  happy to share my pointers, I've used my SS 12x42mm for over 2000 shots, and it performs well.

I'd go for the SS 3-15x42MM- In my opinion, its the best do-it-all scope for the money-  You can hunt with it at 3x, and you can also shoot as far as you want with all the elevation travel, and you can shoot in high velocity crosswinds.



Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 17:56
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I disagree on only getting steel.  Some of the best mounts out there these days are made of aluminum. 

Hmmm... Which aluminum mounts/bases/rings are the "best"?  Are they rigid enough/strong enough?  The scope base is part of what holds the action and makes it rigid for optimal/consistent barrel harmonics and accuracy.



Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 18:12
http://swfa.com/Aadland-Dual-Lug-30mm-Rings-P64835.aspx
http://swfa.com/Seekins-Precision-Scope-30mm-Rings-Low-082-P47911.aspx
http://swfa.com/Seekins-Precision-Picatinny-1-Piece-Base-P47929.aspx
http://swfa.com/Talley-Picatinny-1-Piece-Base-P47315.aspx
http://swfa.com/Talley-Lightweight-Aluminum-30mm-Scopemount-P8382.aspx
 I run those mounts in combinations on several different rifles. I also have a set of Badger steel rings on a IOR Steel base on my 300WSM, because that thing eats scope mounts! (It has sheared the front #6 screw twice. They are now #8's)


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 18:16
And IMHO, if you are depending on a scope base to strengthen a rifle action, your doing it wrong. Bedding is your friend!

-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 18:42
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I disagree on only getting steel.  Some of the best mounts out there these days are made of aluminum. 

I too respectfully disagree that steel is the end all solution. I think my Seekins aluminum rings are as good, maybe better than the steel Badger's and TPS I own/owned.   


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: 338LM
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 19:05
Totally agreed with billyburl2.

I'd upgraded my Rem 700 SPS stock to Choate Tactical aluminum bedding Stock.
Difference is like night and day.

NW425... You need to do more research on your scope purchasing. For the same price as Millett and PA, you could easily get Leupold VX1 or VX2 maybe used VX 3.

Have you visited www.samplelist.com ??


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 19:46
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

Dan, for how long have you been doing precision shooting?

ILya
I started shooting with the Army 1000 Meter Team in 1972.

I think I can reasonably infer that appropriate gear for your precision shooting needs is somewhat different than that for someone new to precision shooting.

ILya

True… I actually like iron sights better.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 19:54
Originally posted by 338LM 338LM wrote:

Totally agreed with billyburl2.

I'd upgraded my Rem 700 SPS stock to Choate Tactical aluminum bedding Stock.
Difference is like night and day.

NW425... You need to do more research on your scope purchasing. For the same price as Millett and PA, you could easily get Leupold VX1 or VX2 maybe used VX 3.

Have you visited www.samplelist.com ??
 If you skim bed that bedding block with devcon steel putty, it will get even better. I run that stock on my Savage 300 wsm, and can pop the barreled ation out for cleaning, and retain the same zero.


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: 338LM
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 20:04
billyburl2, institutions please! 


Posted By: 338LM
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 20:06
sorry... misspelling

instructions  please!!


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 20:37
I too skim bed the aluminum bedding blocks on my stuff. Especially at the recoil lug recess. Takes all the slop out. 

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 20:41
I enjoy the 16x Super Sniper


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 20:53
Originally posted by NW425 NW425 wrote:

BillyBurl2, the commentator above is not the OP on this thread :)

I am used to pistol shooting a lot more than rifle. 

And I just got the standard model in .308 win



Still leaning toward the PA scope. I know the "Chinese" import and "high magnification" won't be ideal, but I really do not want a fixed power :/



If you want a variable power, I'd fork over the extra money and get the SWFA SS 3-9x42 or the 3-15x42, its A LOT better than the PA and the Millett- The millet is inaccurate and will break.  Primary Arms is unknown to serious precision shooters and is probably not very good, though it may be ok for your purposes

Those SWFA's cost $600-700 but thats $2000 worth of scope really.


Posted By: 338LM
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 21:26
NW425

I have an use SWFA SS 3-15 x 42 FFP scope I am not using... and I willing to sell it to you for $450 if you are interested.  

 


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 21:45
Originally posted by NW425 NW425 wrote:

Still leaning toward the PA scope. I know the "Chinese" import and "high magnification" won't be ideal, but I really do not want a fixed power :/



I would skip the Primary Arms scopes. They don't seem to have much confidence in them since they only offer a three year warranty. At least that was what was offered on the ones I saw.


Posted By: MikieG
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 22:02
I bought my first SS 10x42 in 1997 at the wanamachaker show in Tulsa. It was rear focus and came in a white box with tasco paperwork for $400.
That scope served me very well for many years. I upgraded to 10x42M when they came out. Still own 3 of those.
I have used those scopes at several schools over the years. 10x is more than adequate at 1000 yards. And the focus goes down to 10 meters. Today i use those scopes on my Beeman R1 pellet rifles with excellent results. Awesome bang for the buck!


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: May/19/2015 at 23:02
Originally posted by 338LM 338LM wrote:

billyburl2, institutions please! 
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-adhesives/epoxy-metals-prod5808.aspx - http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-adhesives/epoxy-metals-prod5808.aspx
http://snipershide.scout.com/forums/5539-diy/13323843-stock-bedding-diy - http://snipershide.scout.com/forums/5539-diy/13323843-stock-bedding-diy

 Order the material, read that thread, apply it to your rifle.


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: May/20/2015 at 08:53
My 2 cents... if the delivery system (rifle) cannot do it no scope is going to fix that. So firstly for long range shooting the rifle must be able to do 1/4MOA. Otherwise stay on the 200yd range, or be happy with lots of misses, new scopes, new load developments, new stock, new whatever. Ask a golfer, he can help, they buy loads of stuff to improve their drives.
Secondly I have seen one or two aluminium mounts go south, and the bullet north....
Thirdly, if you are aiming small to miss small (Yes, the Patriot), forget about 6x and 9x and 10x magnification. 14X and upwards.
 
All of the above is not true if you are shooting at dustbin lids.
 
Ok....let it rip.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: May/20/2015 at 18:16
People pick different rifle brands for different reasons but I tend to think that the least expensive ones that I have had that  shot really well were Tikka and Savage tacticals.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCPSR


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: May/21/2015 at 08:06
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

My 2 cents... if the delivery system (rifle) cannot do it no scope is going to fix that. So firstly for long range shooting the rifle must be able to do 1/4MOA. Otherwise stay on the 200yd range, or be happy with lots of misses, new scopes, new load developments, new stock, new whatever. Ask a golfer, he can help, they buy loads of stuff to improve their drives.
Secondly I have seen one or two aluminium mounts go south, and the bullet north....
Thirdly, if you are aiming small to miss small (Yes, the Patriot), forget about 6x and 9x and 10x magnification. 14X and upwards.
 
All of the above is not true if you are shooting at dustbin lids.
 
Ok....let it rip.
Point one I agree fully. The delivery system must be high quality to shoot tight consistently.
The same must be said of the scope. Using a scope not designed for your shooting style is failure before you start. Good hunting scope will not make a good target scope. Magnification is not the key. Good Glass and accurate tracking must be first. Then you can up the magnification. Higher magnification, without good glass is a curse.

Not all aluminum mounts are bad. Not all steel mounts are good. Again quality components are a must. I have seen cheap steel rings that would destroy a scope before the first shot.

 Aim small to to miss small. Good point. If you miss a garbage can lid a 300 yards that is a shame.
If you miss a golf ball at 300 yards. It can happen. Practicing on the Garbage lid will not train you to ever hit the golf ball.

Starting cheap always delivers cheap results and ends up being expensive. If any single part of the system is poor quality, you can not tell if it is the shooter or the weapon system. Remove the variable by having a quality shooting system first. Then you can focus on learning from your mistakes knowing that the miss is not a weakness in the  weapon system.

8's Your 2 cents could save shooters thousands they could and likely will waste on poor equipment. Not to say you can't have fun with cheaper rifles or that they will not be successful for hunting. It will never be Long Range suitable.


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: May/21/2015 at 10:34
Originally posted by jmjoker jmjoker wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I disagree on only getting steel.  Some of the best mounts out there these days are made of aluminum. 

Hmmm... Which aluminum mounts/bases/rings are the "best"?  Are they rigid enough/strong enough?  The scope base is part of what holds the action and makes it rigid for optimal/consistent barrel harmonics and accuracy.



Seekins, Talley, Aadland, Bobro, LaRue, American Defense.  I am sure there are a few others.  You will not find anything that performs better for their given roles than these brands. 

I have Talley light weight ring mounts on a 6 lb 300 wsm that kicks like a mule and they are just fine for hundreds of rounds.  I also have the same mounts in a 45-70 and they are just fine for hundreds of rounds so far. 

Worst part about steel mounts is they rust.  Every steel mount I have ever used Leupold, Badger, TPS, Warne, has rusted on me when used in wet hunting conditions.   Obviously it is just surface rust and does not affect integrity, but they still are rusty. 

I would pick aluminum any day over steel mounts.  Just as strong if designed correctly, lighter, and doesn't rust.  Whats not to like.  


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: May/21/2015 at 11:05
On the mounts/rings... the design, alloys chosen, quality of hardware used, and quality of manufacture is what's important, not whether it's made of steel or aluminum alloy. Just saying "steel" or "aluminum" without any other qualifications covers a whole lot of real estate because there are good and poor materials that fall under both classifications. It's not as if a high quality set of aluminum alloy rings is die punched out of cheap alloys like a beverage can. If the design is good, and if a high quality alloy like 6061-T6, 7075-T6, 7050-T7XXX, etc. is used, the rings will be way stronger than necessary and will withstand any dynamic loads any rifle will dish out just as well as steel rings will, while being lighter and more corrosion resistant. Again, the key is whether the rings in question are appropriately designed for the material and whether they're built with sufficient precision.

If you use aluminum alloy rings from the well-respected brands, they'll serve you just as well as steel rings.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/21/2015 at 11:11
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:



If you use aluminum alloy rings from the well-respected brands, they'll serve you just as well as steel rings.

This....


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/22/2015 at 21:28
Wow! Thanks for all of the information everyone.

I go to work for 2 days and I come back to all of this!


I PM'd 338LM about his 3-15x42 SWFA SS scope - even though I probably won't NEED the higher magnifications.

Like I said, this rifle will be used to hit garbage lids at 500 yards and under, not trying to smash any golf balls at this time.



I've been looking at these scope rings: http://www.competitor.com/egw-30-mm-tactical-aluminum-scope-mount-rings.html

With a 42mm objective, do I need low, medium, or high? and are those good rings?

Also, where can I get a picatinny base for the mossberg patriot?


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/22/2015 at 21:36
Should I purchase this picatinny rail or is there a better one at a comparable price? 

http://store.mossberg.com/product/198/mossberg-accessories-picatinny-rail-mount


Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 01:31
Originally posted by 338LM 338LM wrote:

NW425

I have an use SWFA SS 3-15 x 42 FFP scope I am not using... and I willing to sell it to you for $450 if you are interested.  

 

$450?  If you are serious, I'll buy it- is it in good condition?


Posted By: jmjoker
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 01:38
Yeah, those seekins rings look very sturdy and I've used seekins rails before- they make good products


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 17:59
Purchasing that Scope from 338LM and I just ordered the EGW rings, so now I just need a scope base.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 18:16
Originally posted by NW425 NW425 wrote:

Purchasing that Scope from 338LM and I just ordered the EGW rings, so now I just need a scope base.

EGW also makes a decent rail, if your so inclined. 


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 19:09
Will the rail fit the mossberg patriot?


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 20:31
Originally posted by NW425 NW425 wrote:

Will the rail fit the mossberg patriot?

I'm sorry, I see that. Maybe??   


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: NW425
Date Posted: May/23/2015 at 20:43
Any way to check before ordering? (I hate returns/the returns process)


Posted By: 338LM
Date Posted: May/24/2015 at 16:28
Burris Xtreme Tactical Ring

 


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: May/25/2015 at 07:54
With a little more research you would have realized that the Mossburg Night train comes configured  with Tactical Accessories. Saving the time and trouble of assembling a custom rig. Fitting your needs better than the Patriot. This would save money to be spent on training ammo.


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net