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Mills to course an adjustment for 1000y?

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Target
Forum Description: Paper punchin' scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=39133
Printed Date: October/18/2017 at 13:36


Topic: Mills to course an adjustment for 1000y?
Posted By: smlekid
Subject: Mills to course an adjustment for 1000y?
Date Posted: December/29/2013 at 19:58
I am looking at getting a new scope for a 1000y F class rifle I currently run a Vortex Viper and it is in MOA I haven't ever used a Mil scope was wondering how they are for long range targets they seem a little course in the clicks (.250 for my MOA scope against .336" for the mils) anyone using a Mil scope for F class?



Replies:
Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: December/29/2013 at 21:22
Can you really hold the difference? How about your rifle, is it up to the difference between the two?

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If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: Cold Trigger Finger
Date Posted: December/30/2013 at 12:25
It's 1.1" different at 1000 yards . That's not that big a difference.
Most of the ballistics tables I've run shows that the mid velocity 6.5 s need around 9 mils up at 1k . Seems like a lot of adjustment to have 1.1" make that big a difference. . ????

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You are being watched.
If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined


Posted By: smlekid
Date Posted: December/30/2013 at 16:17
Thanks guys the reason I'm asking is the super V ring at 1000y is 5" so 2.5" vs 3.6 does become relevant as to whether or not I can hold that tight well the rifles are shot off a bench and rear bag so there isn't as much human error as shooting off ones elbows
the wind is still the biggest killer I have been using hold off recently and a scope with hash marks should work out well I hope
the Calibre I'm using is a 6.5mm Super LR out of a 30' tube I should be able to get 2950-3000fps with 140gr bullets
I can usually shoot into the mid 50's with my 308 F std rifle


Posted By: Cold Trigger Finger
Date Posted: December/31/2013 at 13:58
What is the 6.5 LR?
What power scope r u using for that range?

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You are being watched.
If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined


Posted By: smlekid
Date Posted: December/31/2013 at 17:22
http://www.6mmar.com/65_SuperLR.php
I have 6-20X50 target dot on my 308 although the mirage where I shoot makes it hard to run much more than 14x some days
I was going to get a 260 Rem built but found the 6.5 super LR and liked the look of it hopefully it will be finished in Janurary


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: January/01/2014 at 09:02
Guess I'll take ana slightly different view.

Mils are mils and Moa is Moa. Both are valid adjustments and either can be learned and made serviceable.

However, in this case competition shooting is being discussed and bullet placement in this case has to be quite precise.
A good shooter CAN hold to within the error of a mil vs moa at 1000 yards. In palma, the open sight shooters are trying to hold within 2 inches of their poa.   In F class the shooters try, most often successfully, to hold within an inch of poa for actual bullet impact.
It can be done and it's not that difficult if you learn to read your target hold off in inches on the target face. Using Mil dots to hold off or mils to adjust is what makes the other guy look really good :)

Go with the 1/4 moa adjustments. Get 1/8th moa if possible because you really can hold that at distance once you get your "stuff" all wired tight.

What ever you choose, good shooting!
Mike


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/01/2014 at 09:18
Excellent insight and advice as always, Mr McDonald.  

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Cold Trigger Finger
Date Posted: January/01/2014 at 12:28
So, now I find myself being tempted to get a mildot scope instead of a mil quad/ mil/ mil scope. .
So now I need to decide if the mil dot will be properly useful for my use.

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You are being watched.
If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: January/01/2014 at 12:58
It depends on what you are planning on using the rifle and scope for. I have an old 10x with the mil-dot reticle, and MOA adjustments, it works well. But my 3-15, and 5-20 with matching mil reticle and adjustments are a lot faster and easier to get on target. The comps I shoot are practical/tactical rifle matches. The steel targets are anywhere from 200 to 1100 yards, with wide swings of azimuth and varying ranges. On top of all this, there is a timed (10 second) follow-up shot. The ability to use the reticle to measure corrections, is important to me. So is FFP, because Arizona has Mirage sometimes too. And FFP allows me to use my reticle for hold-offs no matter what the scope is set on without any mental gymnastics! 

In the paper target world, I will defer to Mr. McDonald, he has much more experience than me. But as fine as the holds that are being discussed, wouldn't a finer reticle be wanted as well? 


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If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: January/01/2014 at 14:04
In the paper world a decent medium to thin reticle works well. First or second plane isn't an issue here. My all time favorite ( because I'm a math nerd ) is the Nightforce NP1-RR. It measures everything you'd ever want and has great glass combined with a medium fine reticle.

In the tac comp world the reticle needs to be heavy enough to be seen against the target which might be in the wide open or concealed by the terrain features ( ran tac matches for years, we were sadists   http://www.opticstalk.com/smileys/Big%20Grin.gif )

In the NRA comp world, every target is known distance and of precise dimension. Nearly every shooter on the line can tell you what the ring dimension and separating band dimensions are, to the 1/16th of an inch. Makes extremely precise hold offs an easy thing to accomplish.

In the tactical comp world, while we may provide you with an accurate dimensional drawing of every target at the beginning of the match, that don't mean that we set them square, or did not use the terrain to partially mask the shooters view of said target. Or stretch saran wrap between two posts 37 yards in front of the target just to mess with your expensive laser ranging device.
Here is where a mil reticle in first focal plain will save your score. The mil quad is ideal for this type shooting due to its finer resolution and clear marking structure.

In either type comp, the guy who touches the windage dial is the guy you just beat. 99.9% chance he will get lost in the dial prior to the end of the match, and usually before the end of the string being fired.

Just my 2 pretax cents.


Posted By: Cold Trigger Finger
Date Posted: January/02/2014 at 02:15
I will mainly use it for called in predators, caribou hunting and beginning to learn to range with a reticle. Price is important as long as its a bone tough scope.   . It's a fixed 6×42 SS .

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You are being watched.
If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined


Posted By: Cold Trigger Finger
Date Posted: January/02/2014 at 02:18
When I can I will switch over to a mil quad reticle but will prolly stick with the fixed 6 power. The scope will be used down to-50°f and the SS is garrenteed to work that cold.

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You are being watched.
If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined


Posted By: Cold Trigger Finger
Date Posted: January/02/2014 at 02:23
Originally posted by smlekid smlekid wrote:

http://www.6mmar.com/65_SuperLR.php
I have 6-20X50 target dot on my 308 although the mirage where I shoot makes it hard to run much more than 14x some days
I was going to get a 260 Rem built but found the 6.5 super LR and liked the look of it hopefully it will be finished in Janurary



I checked it out. Looks like a good round. I'm shooting the 6.5Creedmoor and for my purposes its perfect. But that LR Super looks pretty great. Ide be tempted to go with a 7 or 7.5 twist so I could shoot the longest bullets.

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You are being watched.
If it can't be grown, It's gotta be mined


Posted By: smlekid
Date Posted: January/02/2014 at 03:01
1 in 8 is what my 'smith went with guys that are using this round seem to have no problems with that twist
the creedmore was another round I looked hard at


Posted By: smlekid
Date Posted: January/02/2014 at 03:11
Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Guess I'll take ana slightly different view.

Mils are mils and Moa is Moa. Both are valid adjustments and either can be learned and made serviceable.

However, in this case competition shooting is being discussed and bullet placement in this case has to be quite precise.
A good shooter CAN hold to within the error of a mil vs moa at 1000 yards. In palma, the open sight shooters are trying to hold within 2 inches of their poa.   In F class the shooters try, most often successfully, to hold within an inch of poa for actual bullet impact.
It can be done and it's not that difficult if you learn to read your target hold off in inches on the target face. Using Mil dots to hold off or mils to adjust is what makes the other guy look really good :)

Go with the 1/4 moa adjustments. Get 1/8th moa if possible because you really can hold that at distance once you get your "stuff" all wired tight.

What ever you choose, good shooting!
Mike
Thanks Mike that pretty much is my thinking I really like the look of the Bushnell G2 reticle and the Elite tactical scopes here are not to badly priced pity they don't do a 1/8moa version



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