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5 round group size

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Reloading & Ballistics
Forum Description: Anything to do with ammunition
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=34984
Printed Date: February/25/2018 at 17:38


Topic: 5 round group size
Posted By: Savage11B
Subject: 5 round group size
Date Posted: December/09/2012 at 20:15
I have a random question that I would like some input on. So I went to the range yesterday testing 3 different hand loads in my 308. I fired 8 shots in one group and had 5 out of the 8 in a sub 1/2 moa group, but they weren't consecutive. Can I count that as a tight 5 round group? or do I have to add the other 3 shots, when in reality it could easily been myself throwing the shots just a little bit off?




Replies:
Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: December/09/2012 at 20:32
You have to count all the rounds fired... you, the gun, the ammo, doesn't matter as far as the "score" goes when you are keeping score... you fired an 8 round group with three fliers... in the "real world" fliers count. 
Did you fire (you should never) fire different loads in the same "string"?  Makes it very difficult to tell what is really happening.  I try to fire 10 round groups when testing for precision, but only after all the other factors have already been accounted for... including the trigger puller. 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 00:10
I agree with KB. All the shots count, unless you know 100% you sneezed as you pulled the trigger (or swatted a fly sitting on your nose).
 
To know whether it is you or the rifle causing the flyers etc, use a very steady rest front and back of the rifle. That should eliminate human error as much as is practical.


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 05:44
no cheating WhackoWhackoWhackoWhackoWhacko

Peddler


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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: Savage11B
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 08:58
alright alright, I succeed, I'll count all 8 shots. No I was shooting one string per group, this one was 43.4 grains of varget with a sierra 175 gr. I'm gonna have to shoot another group and try my best to take myself out of the equation, I believe that it's me screwing things up, but we'll see. The only reason I was wondering about the 5 shots was testing the rounds.. haha thanks peddler.. 


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 09:07
I"ve found to give me the best feedback when shooting to test a load is to shot that load once at a certain target, then shoot a different load at another target, then back to the test load and test target, then the other and so on and so on.  I've done this and gotten better results.  I've gotten into a habit of never shooting the same target back to back but rather like every other shot or every three or four shots. 

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 09:17
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

I"ve found to give me the best feedback when shooting to test a load is to shot that load once at a certain target, then shoot a different load at another target, then back to the test load and test target, then the other and so on and so on.  I've done this and gotten better results.  I've gotten into a habit of never shooting the same target back to back but rather like every other shot or every three or four shots. 


I like to do that as well.  This is the system I use and I have had very good results with it. 

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/# - http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 09:19
Originally posted by Savage11B Savage11B wrote:

alright alright, I succeed, I'll count all 8 shots. No I was shooting one string per group, this one was 43.4 grains of varget with a sierra 175 gr. I'm gonna have to shoot another group and try my best to take myself out of the equation, I believe that it's me screwing things up, but we'll see. The only reason I was wondering about the 5 shots was testing the rounds.. haha thanks peddler.. 


Are you using both a front and rear rest of some sort?  When I test loads, I use a bipod up front a big heavy bag in the back to rest the stock on.  It helps me a lot with the stability.


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 11:06
Could be the barrel changing as it heats up or some other factor. Otherwise, like anything else, judge the results against the last time. You're just shooting against your own record, not anybody elses. If it doesn't get better you can:
 
1) Check the rifle and scope. Is everything tight? I once got screwy results and "knew" everything was tightened down...until I happened to notice the bipod rail had worked loose.
 
2) Check your handloading process. If in doubt, maybe spring for a box of FGGM or Black Hills.
 
3) Consider getting some coaching from a knowledgeable shooter.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: Stevey Ducks
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 12:09
This is why I don't like shoot paper targets and then measure group size.
The frustration of shooting 4 almost into the same hole then having the 5th one fly wide can be almost unbearable. The thought of a serious bench rest match is more than I can take.
 
When messing around with a load I like to take 20 minutes to shoot a 20 round group at 200 yds with a chronograph session just before and after - how consistant are the velocities?
 
Yes, I know that I have talked about 1 hole and sub .5 inch groups but I am careful not to mention those 2.5 to 3 inch groups.
 
 
 


Posted By: Savage11B
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 12:13
I really like the idea of changing groups I'm shooting. I will try that next time. I don't believe it's my rig, I have gone through everything with a fine tooth comb before every range day. I do need to check my loading process, I used to load up to 50 rounds at a time, I think I'm going to lower that to no more than 20 at a time to pay more attention to each round. 
yeah I use two bags, but I think I can make it more sturdy. 
For those who care, I also shot a box test with my Falcon Menace FFP 5.5-25x50, it was tracking perfectly, and I was very happy with it. Unfortunately I was only able to do 5 mil sides because of the range I go to, but none the less very happy with it. So just thought I'd throw that out there. 


Posted By: Savage11B
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 12:19
stevey I completely understand, I always feel a ton of pressure when I have 4 shots in one hole then I go to squeeze the trigger again. I think from now on I'm just going to go with 1 shot groups and call it good.. Bandito


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 13:31
Originally posted by Savage11B Savage11B wrote:

I really like the idea of changing groups I'm shooting. I will try that next time. I don't believe it's my rig, I have gone through everything with a fine tooth comb before every range day. I do need to check my loading process, I used to load up to 50 rounds at a time, I think I'm going to lower that to no more than 20 at a time to pay more attention to each round. 
yeah I use two bags, but I think I can make it more sturdy. 
For those who care, I also shot a box test with my Falcon Menace FFP 5.5-25x50, it was tracking perfectly, and I was very happy with it. Unfortunately I was only able to do 5 mil sides because of the range I go to, but none the less very happy with it. So just thought I'd throw that out there. 


If you want to test your adjustments more, move your target closer to do your box test.  If you put it at 50 yards you will have to move the adjustments 10 mils to actually get it to move 5 mils on the paper. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: December/10/2012 at 23:23
Originally posted by Savage11B Savage11B wrote:

alright alright, I succeed, I'll count all 8 shots. No I was shooting one string per group, this one was 43.4 grains of varget with a sierra 175 gr. I'm gonna have to shoot another group and try my best to take myself out of the equation, I believe that it's me screwing things up, but we'll see. The only reason I was wondering about the 5 shots was testing the rounds.. haha thanks peddler.. 
 
 
Now there is a thing for you !!!!!


Posted By: bbrownie
Date Posted: December/11/2012 at 08:28
when I am looking for a new accurate load I fire three shot groups of each different load, with plenty of time to cool between groups. no more 4th or 5th shot flyers to ruin the group.
Brownie  Big GrinBig Grin

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if there are no dogs in heaven then I want to go where they went.
Will Rogers


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/11/2012 at 08:30
i usually shoot my test loads on a very low power so i cant clearly make out the group sizes on purpose.

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: December/11/2012 at 09:25
The thing is this: Untill I owned a truly accurate rifle I chased that 1 hole grouping, convinced I could do it. The truth is a lot of us can do it, but most rifles simply cannot. That one flyer you are convinced you pulled etc, is actually the rifle.
 
Find a truly accurate rifle (varmint or F-Class or Benchrest or a $5000 special build) and shooting 100 yd cloverleaf groupings become boring.
 
So I have accepted that most hunting rigs are just not capable of that magic one hole grouping. So unless you enjoy shooting, reloading, more shooting and more reloading and self torture, just accept that 1inch groupings with the occasional flyer is all you gonna get.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: December/12/2012 at 07:15
Just put pasters over the holes you dont want to count. Devil it's amazing how this will improve your groups.

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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: December/12/2012 at 07:40
 all I shot yesterday was

           CCI 22 mag 40 gr GamePoint JSP # 0022 the box with the coyote on it
accuracy results at 100yds are minute of coyote and could be covered with a closed fist but not nearly the accuracy of Win Supreme 34 gr black box (also known to kill coyotes).
 
Barnes Spit-Fire TMZ Muzzleloading Bullets 50 Caliber Sabot with 45 Caliber 250 Grain Polymer Tip Boat Tail Lead-Free --- results holes touching at 100 yds for the last two (must be time to stop, got to save some to hunt with).  Initial zero for new http://swfa.com/Minox-15-8x32-ZA5-Riflescope-P48153.aspx - - Trijicon 1-4x24 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
 it will get you on target if you have enough light to see the target but the light was -- gone (the cops were already working with nightvision doing night quals) --  always minute of coyote. Devil


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: JF4545
Date Posted: December/12/2012 at 12:47
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

The thing is this: Untill I owned a truly accurate rifle I chased that 1 hole grouping, convinced I could do it. The truth is a lot of us can do it, but most rifles simply cannot. That one flyer you are convinced you pulled etc, is actually the rifle.
 

Find a truly accurate rifle (varmint or F-Class or Benchrest or a $5000 special build) and shooting 100 yd cloverleaf groupings become boring.

 

So I have accepted that most hunting rigs are just not capable of that magic one hole grouping. So unless you enjoy shooting, reloading, more shooting and more reloading and self torture, just accept that 1inch groupings with the occasional flyer is all you gonna get.


This quote from 8 Shots has been my experience as well. Ive beat my brains out reloading rounds for certain rifles I have with no good results, improved yes but not 3 or 5 shot clover leafs.... Just a couple rifles I own will shoot tight groups like that, my 7mm-08 Sako with the Lilja barrel and the Remy 223 VS SF II Varmint...Im looking at the Savage 12 Long Range Precision in 260 or 243 now.


Posted By: Savage11B
Date Posted: December/15/2012 at 15:28
I like the uimaginaryfrnd's idea, I'll just buy a bunch of pasters and cover whatever I don't like..
what I'm shooting now is a Savage 10-FCP-K, with a falcon menace 5.5-25x50 scope, I can make clover holes with it and have done it before with 168grain hornady's, but now I'm trying to load out sierra 175's because I like their stability at longer ranges with my 1 in 10 twist, I'm loading them at 2.8 OAL, with 43.4 grains (the group in question) or lower, anything higher than that and they are opening up to 1 moa or larger with little consistancy. I decided after the range day I would visit some lower loads that I don't think I gave enough attention to so I dialed it down to 42.4 and 42.6 grains and now waiting to go back to the range and see what the new results are. we shall see if I can find a sweet spot or not. My end goal is to have an accurate F class round.
 
Thanks for all the input!! Cheers



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