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A Shot In The Dark

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: The Range Report
Forum Description: Shooting results/targets, range conditions (Online data book)
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=32241
Printed Date: October/17/2018 at 20:52
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Topic: A Shot In The Dark
Posted By: BeltFed
Subject: A Shot In The Dark
Date Posted: February/29/2012 at 13:18
This past Saturday night I participated in a match at Knob Creek Range, in West Point Ky. It was what we call an Assault Rifle Match; which is basically a match for black rifles. The interesting thing is that the match is shot in the dark, on the main range.
The match is run by some members of the Kentucky Practical Defense League (KPDL), a private club located at KCR, but KPDL is not associated with the match.
This was the third time the match was put on by KCR, and hopefully there will be a match like this every other month in the future. If attendance is an indicator, then there will be more matches in the dark, as attendance is growing with little advertisement.
Right now the match is shot more as a training experience with the match more for added stress with the benefit of a small purse for the winner. It is a come as you are match; meaning there are no different classes for rifles, equipment, or skills. Everybody competes against everybody else. So if you show up with a Ray-o-vac flashlight duct taped to your SKS (nobody had this rig in this match), then you will compete against the guy with the custom built AR-15 with the Eotech and NVD (there was one of those there). And if your wondering, the guy that won the match had a custom AR15 with a small tactical light held in place with rubber bands.
 
The course of fire: The shooter staged at stage 1 behind a barricade with his rifle loaded, safety on, in the low ready position with any lights turned off. On the buzzer, the shooter turned on his equipment (lights and/or NVD) and engaged 7 IPSC targets at various distances, then ran to stage 2. Stage 2 was another barricade and 7 more targets with 2 IPSC targets at 45yds (longest shot), 2 paper plates at 12yds, and 3 IPSC targets in between, then off to stage 3. Stage 3 you had to shoot through a barricade at 7 IPSC targets at various distances (this turned out to be more difficult than it sounds since part of the barricade blocked low mounted lights). Finally, stage 4 was another barricade you had to shoot through at 7 more IPSC targets. This barricade had 2 openings at different heights (one for really tall people, and one for really short people). The time stopped with your last shot. For every target not neutralized, 10 seconds was added to the time. The person with the fastest time wins. To neutralize a target, you needed 1 shot in the head or A-zone, or 2 hits anywhere on the target.
 
Now I have shot a lot of matches, but this was the most fun I have had in a long time, and it was a lot tougher than it looks. It was an eye opening experience that I thought I was ready for, but I found out different; and more to come on that.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin



Replies:
Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: February/29/2012 at 13:22
Sounds awesome.  Wish they would put stuff like this on around here.

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: shooter07
Date Posted: February/29/2012 at 13:48
Very cool Lynn....look forward to hearing the rest of the story.

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Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

"And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts. And I looked, and behold a pale horse, and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell followed with him."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/29/2012 at 14:26
Now I have shot enough training courses in the dark that I am comfortable shooting in the dark, but this was different. Murphy was all over me that night, and I thought I was prepared for him.
 
The temperature was 27*F, and the high humidity from the river made it bone chiling cold. I wore my parka and gloves when I shot the match, and this caused problems. I also wore an assault vest so I would have extra mags in case I had a magazine problem, this caused a slight problem. I also didn't check to make sure my scope turrets were set at zero (they weren't), but this didn't cause a problem.
I had basically set myself up for failure by not being prepared with my equipment and it cost me time. I had been at another event that day, and didn't have the time to double check my equipment, and when I started going over things waiting for my turn to shoot, not all of my solutions worked. I tried changing batteries in a weapon light, but didn't have the right batteries. mounted the light on the rail as a backup light, but then realized I couldn't reach the switch easily. Couldn't get the light off the rail without tools, so I was stuck that way, and that light could have been handy on stage 3, and 4, since my regular light was blocked by the barricades.
 
I never shoot with gloves on, but that night it was so cold that I was willing to give it a try. Well since gloves have more fingers on them than I need, it turned into a problem. My extra glove finger got in the way of my light and I couldn't see my targets. I also thought I had a weapon problem with trigger reset, when I really couldn't feel the trigger well enough to know that I hadn't released the trigger to reset. This cost me time.
 
The parka and vest together added enough weight and heat retention that by stage 3 1/2 I was starting to breath heavier than normal. Not a big deal, but it added a little time.
 
This match was a learning experience for me. After all, how often do we shoot in the dark. It's not as easy as you think, especially when you deviate from your normal practices. If everything operates as it should, you still have to deal with the confusion of the dark. Lose site of your targets and you lose site of your place (did I shoot that target already or not), not to mention, did I see all the targets. One shooter actually shot 1 and 1/2 stages from 1 position.
 
I didn't win of course, but I didn't have any penalties either. I didn't panick when things were not happening like they should, but identified the problem and delt with it. While I'm not happy with my results, I did learn what I need to do to improve.
I had a blast, and I can't wait for the next match. If you get an opportunity to shoot a match like this, don't pass it up, you won't regret it.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Glock
Date Posted: February/29/2012 at 14:44
Sounds like a fun time unfortunately the average guy in S.A is not allowed to own a Semi Auto. Wish they wern't so strict here.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: February/29/2012 at 15:48
Very cool! Thanks for sharing!  

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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: March/01/2012 at 00:10
Yeah, Hollywood makes this stuff look easy ! In real life it is not so. Practise, practise and more practise, till the muscle memory takes over.
 
And then of course you get the natural,  a guy who has never done it before and shoots a full score !!!


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/01/2012 at 11:05
Looks like I'm going have to go over my equipment. I'm already working on the backup weapon light. I'm also rethinking the assault vest. It's great for the regular assault rifle match, since it acts like a sleevless shooting coat, but it got in the way and made shooting from the odd positions difficult. Guess I finally have to check out magazine connectors, and different magazine carriers.
 
I used a IOR 1.5-8x26 scope with the CQB illuminated reticle. I guessed on this and had the power set at 2.5x, to keep a wide field of view and bright image. This worked well, but I think 1.5-2x may have been better, but it'll take more matches to know for sureWink


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/01/2012 at 12:39
Sounds like a blast and a challenge!!! Excellent Excellent Excellent
 
Your club has some of the neatest matches...to bad's its
in Kentucky and not Pennsylvania.  Sad


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 11:29
If anybody is wondering, my primary weapon light was a CrimsonTrace lazer/light combo. It's a grip that attaches to a Picatinny rail with an integral light and lazer. The light is very bright and good to at least 100yds, and is very compact.
I didn't use the lazer, but it could have come in handy, especially since someone screwed with my scope; just not enough to make a difference. I have never been a big fan of lazers on weapons, until a SWAT officer that carries the bunker on an entry team; told me it was the best way to aim his pistol. So now I'm exploring the use of lazers. This one was sighted in at 100yds.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 11:31

you looking to change it?



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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 12:20
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

you looking to change it?

 I'm looking to explore it.
Far to often new ideas and technologies have been rejected by the powers that be, because it didn't fit into their established ideas. The 7th Cav. at the Little Big Horn were victims of a refusal to embrace new technologies. I have seen and even been part of the crowd that poo, pooed advances, because it wasn't the conventional wisdom, only to be proved wrong later.
Now I don't think the lazer sight will replace the front and rear sight, but it may be a viable option in many circumstances. Just need to determine how viable it is.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 12:21
duh....what do you mean by carry the bunker on an entry team? Clown

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 12:24
The"old dogs new tricks" thing huh!  I too am hesitant to change from something that has been proven to work well....even if the new thing works much better.  Marketing hype is usually too much BS!

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 12:44
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

duh....what do you mean by carry the bunker on an entry team? Clown
It's actually a large shield, but they are called portable bunkers, because of what they will stop, and how much they weigh.

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 13:46
there is a nice used surefire weapons light on the samplelist. don't know if you saw it.

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 15:23
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

duh....what do you mean by carry the bunker on an entry team? Clown
It's actually a large shield, but they are called portable bunkers, because of what they will stop, and how much they weigh.
Gotcha!  I've seen similar shields used in police skirmish or blockaid lines against rioters, right?


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 15:37
May be, the bunkers are large rectangular shields with a small window close to the top.

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/05/2012 at 16:40
Thats the one I'm thinking of.

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 11:51
Well, we had another night match at Knob Creek. We are now known as the Knob Creek Practical Rifle League; although I don't think anybody is collecting dues.
We had three stages this time, or actually three matches; rifle, pistol, and shotgun are all seperate matches. I shot all 3 this time, since I had a shotgun that wasn't smarter than me (at least that's what I thought), with a light on it. We started a little after 10PM local time, because it had tobe dark. I finished about 12:30A.M.. We only had 15-18 shooters, and we broke up into 3 squads with 5-6 shooters in each. If you weren't shooting one of the matches, you were accomadated, so you didn't have to wait.
The rifle stage was pretty simple, with lots of targets; 21 total. There were 3 positions where at least one round had to be fired from, and you could engage any target from any position, but of course not all targets were visable from every position. Scoring was the same as before; 1 round in the A-zone, or 2 rounds anywhere on the target (something I'm starting to have heartburn with, but that's another story), neutralized the target. This was the same scoring used for the pistol too.
The pistol stage was simple too. You started seated in a chair with your loaded pistol and reloads laying on a table in front of you. You had 4 IPSC targets to engage on the start, then you moved to a door, opened the door and engaged 8 pepper poppers from the door. There was a mandatory reload required and could be performed anywhere in the stage, but you had to take your extra reloads from the table, and once you left the table you couldn't go back.
Listening to the instructions for the shotgun stage gave me a headache, but it was actually very simple. Since it was one stage shot on 2 different stage areas, once you passed one point, you couldn't shoot until you got to another point (a great time to top off the shotgun). I can't tell you how many targets there were, as you weren't told, and you weren't allowed on the stage until you shot. All targets were pepper poppers, and no shoot targets had T-shirts on (and not white t-shirts), it was dark too.
It was a fun night, and I had a GREAT time. Shooting in the dark is different and a different challenge, that adds a whole new perspective to a match, that is fun, educational, and challenging.
It was also a safe match (nobody wants to get hurt), and the safety rules were reviewed before the match, and followed.
I hope this catches on, because it's great training, and great fun.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 12:08
Sounds like it,  wish we had something similar.

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 12:29
HEY Lynn have you had a chance to work anymore with that IOR? I picked one up 2 months ago & it has now replace my Trijicon 3.5-3.5 on my RR ATH 5.56.Maybe you can do a review with this work out your giving it.Personally I think that scope is about as good as it gets to ride on a AR!

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 13:14
While we were waiting for it to get dark, a friend decided to check the battery in his scope. It was dead, so I checked mine. It was dead. Fortunately, Kenny had batteries for our scopes, and tools. It was a bear getting the battery cover off. It was the original battery, so I can't complain about the time it lasted, but I am currious about how long the new one will last.
I ran my llumination on 3 or 4, and my power was on 1.5. Probably should have been at 2.5x, but I forgot to check my magnification before I started. I was too focused on garding my elevation setting.
I'm liking the IOR 1.5-8x. The rifle stage started and ended with targets that were almost contact distance, with targets that could have been about 70yds, and I had no problem with any of them.
The real test of the IOR will come in October at the Assault Rifle Match.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 15:32
Thanks for that update I'll remember to carry a few batteries.

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 15:44
Make sure you can get the battery cover off too. I had to use a small pair of channel locks with a rag and a quarter to get the cover off. I think some old woman that put bottle tops on screw top beer bottles put that cap on. 

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: June/19/2012 at 19:31
You let your wife play with yur scope?!?!!?
 
Actually that sounds like my grandma Arley.
 
She had two nicknames.... Big Red and Strongarm Arley.  She was known to accidently twist the doorknob off of more than one locked door! Shocked


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: June/20/2012 at 09:07
Roll on Floor LaughingYou crack me up Bud...........

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: June/20/2012 at 10:27
But it was the truth!!!  Honest and funny!Big Grin

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: June/20/2012 at 14:00
She must have been fun at Christmas with the chestnuts.

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: June/20/2012 at 16:01
I think she could crack Macadamia nuts with two fingers!
 
Actuall she had a huge pecan tree in her yard and she was forever cracking them and eating the meat while she worked in the garden.  I remember once she got mad about something and literally pulerized the two pecans she had it her hand!!!  Scary old Puritan woman she was!


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: June/21/2012 at 15:04
Almost forgot; I used a Mouseberg 930 JM Pro in the shotgun match. I mounted a 500 lumen flashlight with a remote swich at the barrel/magazine support, using a short Picatinny rail and offset mount. The light ran along the barrel with the offset mount, and when I turned it on, it lit up the fiber optic front sight like a Christmas tree light. It was very fast; I was finding and sighting on targets faster than I could think to press the trigger. I like this setupBig Grin

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: July/03/2012 at 00:36
Shooting with a flashlight, Hmmm... as for me, in a "situation", I'd be shooting AT the lights.


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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/03/2012 at 09:57
Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Shooting with a flashlight, Hmmm... as for me, in a "situation", I'd be shooting AT the lights.
Can'tshoot what you can't see. Can't hit if you can't see your sights. Ever try hitting a bright light shinning on you?
If you have never shot in the dark, you really do not know how difficult it is.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: July/03/2012 at 12:56
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Shooting with a flashlight, Hmmm... as for me, in a "situation", I'd be shooting AT the lights.
Can'tshoot what you can't see. Can't hit if you can't see your sights. Ever try hitting a bright light shinning on you?
If you have never shot in the dark, you really do not know how difficult it is.
The competitions you've been attending sound like a lot of fun. Practice makes perfect.
My comments don't have much to do with your competency or competition.

One can effectively shoot in the dark- even pitch black- with practice.  One can get somewhat proficient naturally aiming w/out sights with a variety of firearms in day or night and probably should.
You can hit what you can't see. You can hit what you can see better.

My rich uncle used to have me engage targets in the dark without a light.
I did pretty good.
One learns to shoot AT lights... who sees who first? Do they get to shoot at your flashlight or your muzzle blast?
One can also learn where to shoot from just listening to very soft sounds.
 know a former nug who could tell stories about havin' a smoke at night and then hearing the busy bees... buzz  buzz buzz buzz around your ears and then... the bang bang bang, so somebody over on that hill half a click away could shoot at cigarette glows at night. They didn't turn on their flashlight.
 One can even have spotlights sweeping you and they'll never see you in the dirt if you don't move or show them your face or they don't get a reflection from something shiny, but you see them. Pucker factor.

As before, the competition sounds like a lot of fun.


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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/03/2012 at 13:56
I've taught a lot of police to shoot in the dark. I've taught a lot of police to search buildings in the dark. I've been trained to shoot in the dark. I've trained in force on force encounters with active shooters. If you can identify your target and see your sights in the dark, then you are in good shape, but it's really just deminished light. If you can't see your target or your sights, you NEED a light. You can't call your bullits back, and they can't distinguish between friend and foe. You can practice point shooting all you want, but under stress your skill deminishes, and if you can't see your target, your depending on luck, especially when bullits are flying in the dark. It is better to have a light in the dark than to try and religh on some false sense of hiding in the dark. This isn't just theory, but fact proven by experience.
War zones are different from your home, neighborhood, ally, or office building. In a war zone the enemy is over there somewhere, and if I think I know where he is, I can use massive amounts of firepower to neutralize him if he gives me a chance. If I'm on home ground and I shoot at a bump in the night, I damn well better know who made the bump, why they are making the bump, and where they are.
One other thing, shooting at a lit cigarette isn't the same as aiming at a 500 lumin light shining in yiour face.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: July/03/2012 at 15:57
Good info Lynn,Thanks........

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Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: September/24/2012 at 12:26
Shot the last night match of the year over the weekend. Had a ball, and it was a tough match, especially the rifle stage.
Murphy is alive and well in so many different forms, and that has almost gotten to be one of the fun parts of this match for me. 
Shot the rifle stage first. Instead of the ISPC targets, we had 30 steel targets on wood stakes from 25 to 35 yards. Most of the targets were 4" in diameter, a few 6" and 4 12" targets, and stretched across a wide arc. You shot from inside one of the range trucks through the gapeing hole in the windshield (courtesy of a fallen tree), and the truck was covered with a thick layer of dried mud. Of course, each target left standing adds 5 seconds to your score.
When I shot the course, I fired 2 rounds and then nothing. Tap rack click, what the...., tap rack click, oh snap. Pulled the mag, rattle rattle; bad mag, changed mags, and started shooting. 5 or 6 rounds and I can't see the targets for the dust coming up off the hood. Had the scope set at 6x and had no field of view, but it wasn't hard to hit em when I could find em or see em. Had to shift my position to get to the targets on the right. Reload and look for more targets, shift position,and shot 2 or 3 more and I was done.
I'm going to have to learn to stop fighting the clock. I should have taken the time to lower the power of the scope to increase my field of view. Fighting the clock cost me a target on the shotgun stage too; just walked pass it, and didn't see it. It's artificial stress that I'm failing to control. Had no issues with the pistol stages.
All in all, it was a fun and educational match. It's a shame this was the last one for the year; especially since the sun sets earlier now. 


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: September/24/2012 at 12:43
your sun been setting for several years now...



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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: September/24/2012 at 13:09
That does sound like a ton of fun!  I wish I could spend a month or two under Lynn's tutelage.  Both on the work bench and teh range.  I'm sure he has a ton of knowledge to pass on...one of them I forgot more than you'll ever know guys!

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: September/24/2012 at 13:10
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

your sun been setting for several years now...

My bud, it sure is easy to Pokeryou todayBandito

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: TV-PressPass
Date Posted: September/24/2012 at 13:25
This sounds like a fantastic time. I'm trying to convince the range near me to do some night stages like this.

I'm really torn whether I'd rather use my NVD-eotech setup and run in the dark with IR, or just hit the full lumens out of the flashlight and try to run it as a regular course.

How important do you feel tritium sights are on a pistol when you're using a light? I've been looking for some meprolight ones to put on my Jericho 941


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- I try to produce quality firearms content worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WildGunmenOsborne


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: September/24/2012 at 13:38
 
 
    Naughty


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: September/25/2012 at 09:39
How important do you feel tritium sights are on a pistol when you're using a light? I've been looking for some meprolight ones to put on my Jericho 941
 
I'm using Tru-Glow sights with tritium, and a mounted light light on the pistol. Something I'm finding out is that different lighting conditions have different effects on your sighting ability.
In stage one of the pistol stage, tritium sights probably would have been better as there was enough ambiant light to see the targets and the flashlight tended to wash the sights out, and they were just a blurr. A light wasn't really needed, since you could see the targets and your tritium sights. Stage two of the pistol stage was different, as it had been lighted so that some targets were visable and some were not. You had to have a light to find and indentify the targets in the dark, and one of those was a hostage. Tritium sights were useless and never showed up, but the sights showed up with all the lights in the stage and on the pistol.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
 
An illuminated retical is a must for a rifle scope, as a black dot is difficult to see on a steel grey target in the dark.
 
One guy in my squad used a starlight scope on his rifle with no magnification. He had a good time, but he left 5 targets. 


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: TV-PressPass
Date Posted: September/25/2012 at 09:55
Really? The guy with the NV missed targets eh? Did you notice if he was using an illumination or any sort of external IR assistance?

I like the idea of a fiber-optic/tritium combo. That's part of the idea behind the Viking Tactics sights right?




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- I try to produce quality firearms content worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WildGunmenOsborne


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: September/25/2012 at 10:09

His optic was a 3rd generation light intensifer (starlightscope), and he had no other source of light other than the ambiant light of the area.

I'm not familiar with the Viking Tactics sights. Just looking at your pic., but are the tritium sights below the fiber optics?
On the TruGlo sigts the tritium is integrated with the fiber optics. They are longer than normal.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: TV-PressPass
Date Posted: September/25/2012 at 11:04
I've only got a Gen II setup personally, but use an IR illumintor with it. Not that great if you're trying to be special forces, but for the night shoots I've done I find the targets come up quite bright because of the reflection of the IR light.

The Viking Tactics sights are built around the idea that most people naturally shoot high in low light and shoot as closer ranges. I couldn't understand that idea, but one of my army buddies said its true.

There's some kind of rule they go by:
"Lights low, hold low. Lights high, hold high."

So the tritium comes up when the lights are out and replaces the Fiber optic setup. They might be a little gimmicky, but they sure are a neat design.


-------------
- I try to produce quality firearms content worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WildGunmenOsborne


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/03/2013 at 12:26
Well season 2 has started at knob Creek Range, and we had our first matches of the season on March 23. We had an actual 3-gun day match (if one stage can be called a match) that involved pistol, rifle, and shotgun in the stage. I learned I'm easily distracted with a short term memory, but it was still loads of fun.
 
The night matches were as usuall, 3 seperate stages for rifle, pistol, and shotgun.
I got in a relay with 2 active duty military, another police officer and former military, a firefighter/firearms instructor and former Mud Pie (MP), so we made it a learning experience for all of us. I was kind of gaming so I won't cover my escapades, But the 2 active duty guys were playing with what they use at work, and that was a learning experience, especially for one.
The one active duty guy discribes himself as a gear queer (GQ) and always has something new to use, be it clothing, boots, or equipment. For the night shoot, he was using the latest NVD with a head harness instead of any kind of visible light source to identify targets. Here is what happened, and what we (he) learned.
The shotgun was our first stage. The course was simple; locate and neutralize all the targets (steel) in 2 shooting bays. Our GQ decided to use the NVD over the weak eye and aim the shotgun with his strong eye. He could identify targets, but he couldn't see his front sight and had difficulty hitting targets. The solution was to put the NVD over the strong eye, that way he could see targets and sights.
The rifle was our second stage. From the start you moved to different stages and engaged different size and shaped steel targets, with one position involving one of those danged barrier boards with the different size shape and height holes in it to shoot through (a real challenge to get barrel, light and sight through) Our GQ again used his NVD on the head harness and a laser designator to aim his rifle. I don't know which eye the NVD was over, but the results weren't good. The solution he found was to mount the NVD in line with an aimpoint (the NVD was modular with different mounting systems), then finding, aiming, and hitting targets was easy.
The last stage was the pistol, and it was a jungle walk with shoot and no shoot targets, both steel and paper. Here our GQ excelled. He mounted the NVD over his strong eye and used a pulsating infrared laser on his pistol. He had no trouble finding and hitting targets.
All in all it was a fun an interesting night shoot, and I'm ready to go again.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: April/03/2013 at 16:13
Sounds like an informative blast! Had big fun and learn a bunch too!   

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: April/04/2013 at 07:06
I'm starting to settle in on my equipment selection on the guns. The other gear is still in development, as to what I need to carry mags, lights, ammo, and weapons. The lights on the shotgun and rifle are the same but different brands, LED 650 lumen maximum with micro switches, strobe, and lower settings, in offset picatiny mounts. The fiber optic front sight on the shotgun is easy to find and fast to use since the light lights it up like a beacon. The IOR 1.5-8x26 is great on the rifle; I just need to remember that I can adjust the power when needed. You don't need much illumination of the reticle, but it would be nice if the center dot was illuminated.
With a scope I haven't seen a need for a laser on the rifle, but one thing that was learned in this match, is that open sights and lights alone didn't perform well. The targets were smaller and farther out this time, so magnification was a plus.
This was the first time I thought a laser on the pistol would have been a plus. I got so much light reflecting off the white hostage target I couldn't focus on the front sight.My first shot came too close to the hostage target for my comfort, and I spent to much time putting rounds on the target to ensure it was neutralized.
More thoughts later (if I can generate them).

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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: August/18/2014 at 14:12
Wow, over a year (I think) since my last night match.
The 3-gun club was absorbed into the Ky. Practical Defense League (KPDL) and only 6 matches a year are scheduled with only 2 night matches out of 6. I missed the other night match this year, so it's been a while.
Equipment problems were plentiful this time. My pistol light went on strike a couple of weeks ago and I found out the day of the match that the replacement light and pistol wouldn't fit in the holster. Fortunately the replacement light A MX-6 with a grip switch did fit my duty pistol and another holster that I had. The bad part, was the night sights are all but shot on that pistol and the new set isn't in yet. Night sights weren't an issue though, since lights could be used in all stages. The mounts for my light came loose on my shotgun and it had to be tightened up. Luckily I had no issues with the rifle.

There was a total of 5 stages, 1 pistol and shotgun stage, 2 stages with just pistol, 1 stage with pistol and rifle, and 1 stage with just the rifle. All the stages were challenging, fun and short, except for the pistol rifle stage (way too many paper rifle targets that had to be scored and pasted) that created a bottleneck.

My favorite stage was the pistol/shotgun stage. You had 4 paper pistol targets and 5 shotgun targets. The shotgun targets were 2 clays and 3 pepper poppers. The clays were pretty close so it was easy to miss them if you didn't take the time to aim. The shotgun was staged with only 4 rounds in it and an empty chamber so you had to reload the shotgun to finish. This was a little challenging without being too complicated.

The match was pitched more as scenario based practice than a competition for safety and educational reasons, and I learned a few more things. I'm not always gripping the pistol tight enough, the grip switch showed me that. Scan for more targets when you think you're done, my one and only penality. And yes IOR scopes do tunnel on low power.

I had fun and I am learning how to shoot in the dark. I came in 5th out of 21 which aint great but it's not bad for half blind, old fat man.




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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/19/2014 at 17:06
I think that's stellar results considering it's been a year and all the equipment issues...

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: August/19/2014 at 17:18
And BF isn't getting younger. Are ya Lynn?

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/19/2014 at 17:37
at least the flashlight didn't shine off his bald head and blind him this time...  Whistling

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: August/19/2014 at 17:40
Whoa!!!

I resemble that, F you Bud!

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/19/2014 at 20:31
Roll on Floor Laughing   I know....

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: August/20/2014 at 08:56
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

at least the flashlight didn't shine off his bald head and blind him this time...  Whistling

We HAVE to wear 2 cylume sticks during the match (one in front and one in back) for safety reasons (no shooting at cylume sticks allowed). Mine were particulary bright Sat. night. It was so dark, that to navigate I would hold one over my head and let the light reflect off my head so I could see where I was goingBucky


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/20/2014 at 11:34
See, Can I call them or what?!?!?!? Smile

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: November/18/2014 at 17:39
Saturday night I had the pleasure to watch Beltfed in action on the night pistol course. The range used for this shoot is deep in the bottom of a narrow valley. Man it was dark down there. Being cloudy and 20 degrees didn't help matters at all. Not as fast as some he was more efficient with less misses making for better times. Everyone had to wear Cyalume sticks for safety. When the shooting groups moved from one station to the next it looked like a line of gnome miners walking to work. It was a lot of fun and all the others shooters were friendly and courteous. All were having a fun time.


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: November/18/2014 at 20:23
I've always wanted to meet Lynn and see that range and the machine gun annual.  Bucky

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: November/19/2014 at 10:07
If you go you need to be prepared for some climbing. The 75 ft from the parking lot to the bottom where this range lies drops 45 ft in elevation.


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: November/19/2014 at 10:11
good grief!

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: November/19/2014 at 13:43
How did the old guy make it?

BF that is!!!


-------------
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: November/19/2014 at 17:49
armed mad and cussing..... v I'm thinking....  and heading in the other! Wink

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: November/19/2014 at 22:27
Actually he scampered down the side of the hill like a squirrel after a nut.


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: November/20/2014 at 04:13
Big Grin

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: November/20/2014 at 06:06
That was ON the way down  to shoot naturally....   it's the climb back up afterwards that kills....

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: November/24/2014 at 09:22
OK, 3_tens did embellish just a little about the Hole (I think). And I caught all kinds of grief from the other members for not providing 3_tens with shooting gear and letting him shoot (at least I didn't catch grief for having a non-member at a night shoot). Also after looking at my scores, I have to conclude that besides more practice, I need to look at my equipment again.
I had planned on using a different pistol and light for this match, but I discovered at the last minute that the light I planned on using needed some repair, and since everything is holster specific, I was stuck with gear I'm not really happy with. While I MAY stick with the same pistol, the sights and lights have got to change; I'm going to ditch the grip switch too. Since I'll probably have until April before the next match, I'll have time to fine tune my sights and maybe add a new light and laser combo.
The other thing I learned, I already knew about Glocks. When using rail mounted accessories on a Gen. 3 Glock, make sure you use Gen. 3 magazines; otherwise you could have a failure to feed.
Night shoots are a load of fun and they certainly add a new challenge and learning curve to a match. Even though I sucked at the last match from my own perspective, I know I have been better in the past and right now I'm blaming my equipment.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: November/24/2014 at 11:05
at least you didn't blame poor old Lile....

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: November/24/2014 at 11:55
Lile would have just put me one spot further down the listSad


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: November/24/2014 at 12:00
  My shooting ability wouldn't drop you a notch. Not in the last 15 years anyway. In a pressure situation accuracy beats speed in most cases. You didn't waste that many rounds.

It is impossible for me to imagine that the Navy used this area to test fire 16" guns.  Closed in as you are in those narrow valleys. Talk about mega concussion. It would be almost enough pressure to cause your toe nails to pop off.


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: November/24/2014 at 12:13
They were 14" guns. It was also back in the late 30s early 40s I think, and it wasn't nearly as populated. Anyway there were some consequences as windows were blown out and wells dried up for a time, for the few homes that were in the area.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/11/2015 at 08:30
Well the Streamlight TLR-2G finally came in yesterday. I only had an hour to play with it, but so far I like it. While I'm not ready to give a full review of it, I will have to say the light is plenty bright and I love the green laser. I mounted it on 2 different Glocks and the laser was right on for a 25yd zero without having to adjust it. The on/off switch was easy to use like the Insight switch. The function switch was a little small and hard to get to when mounted, but that may be a good thing. My biggest concern is the operating temperature limits of the laser. 32* is the lower limit of the laser and the first night match I ever shot was on a cold February night and 22* was the temp when I shot. It's not that big of a deal, but it is a limitation.
Overall I like it and I think it will help, but time will tell.

Now if I can get the sights right.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: February/11/2015 at 08:59
Using the laser for trigger control training is the best side effect for using the laser. One of the shooters at Knob Creek had a green laser. It was easy to see his lack of control by the dip then move to the right as he pulled the trigger before each shot. Dry fire practice using a laser can really help correct bad form. Next time you go show them how it is done. Good Luck Show off your skill. Smile


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/20/2015 at 11:34
Well we FINALLY got around to having another 3-gun night match that I could attend. We had to have it on the main range because half the Hole was flooded and It wouldn't have been safe to shoot down there. This was actually a good thing because courses could be stretched out, especially for the rifle course. We also had to be a little creative with our targets since no one wanted to run down to the Hole and drag up target stands in 90*+ heat. We used paper plates stapled to the cardboard target stands that Knob Creek Range (KCR) uses for targets for pistol and rifle. We used clay birds for shotgun targets. We also only had 2 stages, since that's all we could run at the same time on the same range and maintain safety.
The rifle or pistol only stage started off as a slalom that you had to move through and shoot targets on the move then you came to a stop point and engaged targets from 5 to 35 yards. There was a total of 23 targets and each paper plate (the target) required 2 shots to be neutralized. The pistol/shotgun course had 7 paper plate targets that required 2 shots each and 6 clay birds at about 15 to 20 yards that had to be broke to count. You started with the pistol and engaged a target at about 3yds then moved to another position with another target along the way then engaged the remaining pistol targets. You then either continued with the pistol and shot the clay birds or you grounded your pistol and picked up your staged shotgun and engaged the birds.

The rifle and shotgun were set up the same as before. My pistol was wearing a different light this time. I was using a Streamlight TRG-2 with a green laser.
The pistol, light/laser was an unexpected improvement. I had sighted the laser in at 50yds a couple of weeks ago and hadn't messed with it since. When I started the stage I just turned the light/laser on and left it on. The first target I used my sights and maybe the second, but somewhere I realized I was just looking over the pistol at where the laser was pointing and pressed the trigger. It must have worked; I shot that stage clean too.


-------------
A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/21/2015 at 12:51
Things I'm learning (OK, I'm really confirming what I already suspected) from playing with this laser: In daylight the laser is of little use over conventional sights. Your trying to see a very small dot at distance when it's faster and more precise to just line up the sights. In low light the laser/light combo is faster than conventional sights with a mounted light. It's easier to find that bright little dot on a target when your pointing a mounted light at it than it is to find and align the sights with a mounted light. Of course trigger control is still important.
I still have more research to do.


-------------
A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: July/22/2015 at 05:46
I need to get a laser for trigger training.
 
I wonder if snap-cap based laser is accurate enough for that.  I would think so or at least it will show you POI movement during trigger squeeze.... and thats exactly what I have always fought with...


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: July/22/2015 at 05:49
I hope the snap cap laser will work and I can find one in 9mm luger.  That way i can train with all my 5 of my 9mms.... Loco

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: July/22/2015 at 06:20
I got Lori a LaserLyte training system for Christmas.  She really likes it... except the fact that it burns batteries so quickly.  I use it... good trainer.  Definitely works on your trigger control. 

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: July/22/2015 at 07:04
Wow, thats exactly what I'm talking about.  Love the target with memory too!
 
I'm going to get this system.  Since I have 5 9mms all of different size and grip angle this system will allow me to practice with them all.   Batteries won't be an issue...Wink


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: December/04/2017 at 08:23
Been a while since I've shot a night match, but I finally got to shoot another match last week. As always, I learn things at these matches, and this one was no exception.
Our first stage was the biggest eye opener. You started in the prone position with 3 targets 100yds away, next you had to fight your way past a bunch of targets (20 plus at at least) to get to your shotgun and engage 6 clays on the ground and one thrown in the air.
Now here are the 2 things I learned on this stage.
First: with my big 600 lumen weapon mounted light I had no problem seeing the 100yd targets with my scope set at 3X; that is until the first 2 rounds were fired and kicked up all kinds of dust. The second target was still visible, but to make sure I got the rounds on target I fired 3 rounds, kicking up even more dust, and I had to wait until the dust cleared enough to engage the third target. Lesson learned, make sure your muzzle brake doesn't blow gas downward so dust wont get kicked up obscuring your view.
Second: I was putting 1, 2, or 3 rounds on each of the 20 plus target as I hurriedly walked past them to make sure I got at least 1 round in the A-zone or 2 on target when the magazine ran dry. Tried to do a magazine change (like I've done a thousand times), but I could not get that magazine to go into the mag well. It took several tries before the mag went in, and that ate up more time than I wanted. Lesson learned there was flared mag wells may not be a gimmick; even if you can find the mag well blindfolded.
Everything else went pretty smooth. Even made a magazine change with the pistol with no issues.
I do love shooting these night matches, even if I do feel like I took an ass whoopin in the mornin.


-------------
A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: anweis
Date Posted: December/04/2017 at 18:15
sounds like my basic training with an Ak rifle, 40 years ago.
We had tracers (every 6th or 8th round), though, and our targets has little lights to simulate muzzle flash, and we had some kind of tritium on the front sight post.
I was doing just fine until i stepped into a rabbit hole, dropped forward twisting my ankle, sprayed a couple of bullets in the ground  and spent 2 weeks working in the kitchen with a cast on my foot.

Here's an idea for ya'll in KY: if you don't shoot well you shall peel taters for 2 weeks.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: December/04/2017 at 22:31
Sounds like fun glad you got to do this. I don't know of any like that here. NRA matches but thats about it.

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: December/05/2017 at 12:50
Back in the summer during our annual qualifications, I spoke with Loonyville Metro's current firearms training staff about weapon mounted lights. Back when I was in the training unit of the old LPD, I managed to get lights approved as an option. Now they are required for all new hires.
They are restricted to 2 brands of lights and a specific holster, and are trained not to use the trigger finger to activate the light to prevent NDs.


-------------
A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin



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