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Middle caliber magnums belted or not

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Topic: Middle caliber magnums belted or not
Posted By: preacherman
Subject: Middle caliber magnums belted or not
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:10
If these are not useful for dangerous game, and overpowered for large game what exactly are they for? from the 8mm mag and the 338-06 to the 350 Remington mag and the 358 Norma, 338 win,340 weatherby , the 330 Dakota ETC. Target? Long range black tail deer at a mile? If the only real needs are 30 caliber and 375 and up then why bungle things up with un-needed and overpowered gopher weapons?


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"



Replies:
Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:25
I would like a .338 for Elk, possibly at longer ranges, moose, grizzly bear, and anything in africa up to eland. I don't think there is no use for the middle calibers.

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:27
are they just "gimmic" weapons that look good on paper and are pretty? What purpose can there possibly be for them? Seriously

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:37
I would say, people just like options.  It has a lot to do with people wanting to make money, so they come out with something a little different hoping to get a market share.  As well I bet some of the designers were just trying to make a round a little better in one way or another than a similar round.  Just always looking for something just a little faster, that functions just a little better

In reality if a guy had a .223, a 30-06 and a .375 h&h he could virtually hunt anything except the very largest african game and it would be all he ever needed.  But most of us just want options to play with and try.   


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:04
Why not a 458 win mag or a 460  a 30-06 and a 22 hornet



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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:09
Those would work as well.  See how the options just fit everyone differently.  Wink

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:13
I tend to think there is more to it than that. I will concede that a 35 whelen is virtually useless for any more than 200 yards as is the 350 Remington mag, the 356 win and the 358 win. But I am talking about magnum rounds that have been out and killing "dangerous game" for 50 to 75 years.
Not some gimme sumpen new cartridge. Why were they useful as all get out for 60-75 years and now are just oversized goat shooters. Trigger 29 seems to have more respect for em than that.


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:34
but anything smaller than a 375 is useless? Why?

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:35
Maybe, better bullet designs that have higher BCs which leads to higher velocity's at distance, more impact energy.  They do more damage and stay together better upon impact,  They penetrate deeper. 

They now have better powders that give more velocity, which also increase all these things. 

I sometimes think it also has to do with the "American" way of having to overdo everything as to why we have all the gigantic super duper mags.  I read account of European hunters using .260 and .280 calibers at modest velocities to kill mid sized game that us American's claim you need at least a 338 mag to do. 

My dad hunts elk with a .243.  He has never had a single one get away from him.  He always says if I hit him in the right spot he will die.  Guys laugh at him saying he needs at least a 338 mag, preferably a 338 378 mag.  He then asks them how much practice do they actually get with those giant rifles.  They never get much because of cost of the recoil factor.  He used to shoot his .243 a ton, was a very good marksmen.  Guess that is why he always gets his elk with just a .243


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:57
It's not so much the weapon as the man behind it.  All the odd calibers out there were the result of someone trying to make a better mouse trap; which was not always a successful venture.  Really if you look a common deer calibers like 243, 7mm08, 308, 270 280 30-06, 300 WM, 7mmMag and a bunch more they all do about the same thing when they hit a deer in the same spot and the deer is just as dead with one as another.  Bullets on the other hand have improved quite a bit and so have optics.  But all in all a guy has to admit that there have been a lot of deer killed with a  30-30 winchester or a slew of other less than balistically impressive calibers.  I say find a rifle caliber you enjoy shooting and shoot it a lot enough to know what it will do at different distances and if something is too far away - walk closer.

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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 19:33
I agree that alot of it is curb appeal. Do we need all of these calibers no, but this can be said for almost all products. Do we need 10 different car manufactures who each have five different models with 1000's of options no.  Options and choice just enhance our life experiences.

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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: gulf1263
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 19:59
IMHO before the new premium bullets the middle caliber magnum cartridges were the answer for large game like elk and moose.  They really earned their keep when it came to brown/grizzley bear.
The .338 Win. Mag., .358 Norma Mag. and the .375 H&H Mag. all can stop a charge and put a bear down with the heavier non premium bullets and with the premium bullets add extra insurance.
I have been present and have seen their effectiveness on bears at close range during charges.
They are a survival tool pure and simple.
A properly set up rifle will not give problems with the belted magnums, point of fact some of the newer nonbelted magnums are harder to get to feed than the belted mags.
Problems occur when people buy a brand new rifle just before a hunt, haven't practiced with it and then try to use it.
Interestingly enough the Browning BAR in .338 never seems to have the feeding problems caused by a short stroked bolt gun. They seemed to work pretty well and almost never had a feeding problem with the belted rounds.
I may buy another .338 Win. Mag. just for old times sake, I don't hunt anymore and don't have to go after big bears in the brush but miss the thump.
Again this is my opinion and experience and I would like to hear from others on the subject.
Thanks
Art






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Good day.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 20:08
so what are you getting at??

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 20:44
What  I  am after is a discussion based on real world experience as well as ballistic truths of the middle caliber magnums and even some non magnums such as the 338-o6. Do they perform well?what are their limitations and so on. Merits as well as detracting factors of said calibers REALLY going into depth caliber by caliber.

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:03
I own the oddball 35 whelen and it works wonderfully for stand hunting in heavy cover in northern Wi.  and thats the only use it gets. I think alot of us Nuts put together rifles and optics for specific intended purposes, be it animal or terrain. 
I also beleive many of the 338 and up crowd buy these rifles to keep personal goals and dreams hunts alive, I being one.  Being a man in the USA we're limited to one spouse at a time, but we can have as many flings and affairs with rifles as the pocket book will allow. Wink 

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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:13
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Why not a 458 win mag or a 460  a 30-06 and a 22 hornet

As far as the .458 Win and .460 Roy are concerned, the .458 Lott overcomes all problems associated with the other two calibers, afaik.

 pyro's always talking about his .375 and kickboxer about his Lott, so they've given people a case of wanting both for some time, and who wouldn't want a fine .35 caliber something and a great .338- maybe in Lapua?
Like others have said, you could get 'er all done here in OK with just a .223 and a .30-06 (and really just an '06,) but that fact hasn't kept my safe empty.

.172 .200 .223 .224 .243 .257 .264 .277 .284 .308 .310 .311 .312 .313 .321 .323 .338 .348 .357 .358  .366 .375 .410 .411 .416 .423 .430 .452 .458 .474 .505 .510  rifle bullet diameters made by one or more US mfg.



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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:44
Personally this is the way I see it. 30 caliber and 7 mm caliber magnums are useless for big game stoppers. Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line. The 30-06 is perfectly adequate for deer and even elk if you keep the shots at 200 yards or less. I am in fact a 30-06 fan have been for years. For most of my hunting life I used the 30-06 and the 45-70 the latter especially when hunting off horseback. That said the 338 in any magnum configuration is  far superior to either cartridge, so is a 358 Norma magnum. Higher sectional densities and better BC's are the recipe for a successful and safe hunt. IMO I don't NEED anything bigger. I can prove that a 338 is just as good and in some ways superior to either the 30 cal magnums or the eyeball displacing 458/460 magnums The same argument could be used to showcase the 358 Norma. here is such a thing as too much velocity.


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:58
Hmmm....

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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 22:02
My real-world experience is that my 30 cal and 7mm magnums have been anything but useless.

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-Matt


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:27
.30-06 with 200 gr. Accubond has more energy at 500 yds than a .30-30 at 50 yds, but that doesn't mean .300RUM isn't a better wheat field rifle if one were to take that 500 yd shot.
 Higher velocity 7s and .30s need thicker jacket bullets than slower flavors, but the same is true with any high velocity impact. Is a .308 180 gr hitting at 3100 fps more likely to come apart than a 200 gr .338 hitting at 3100 fps?
Non-bonded boattails in any flavor seem to shed jackets faster (for me) than flat base.
John Barsness talks about a tiny woman he knows who hunts everything with a .338 Win.
Several non- magnum .35s and .37s in a fast lever or auto would make a fantastic hog rifle.

gulf1263 said: "...point of fact some of the newer nonbelted magnums are harder to get to feed than the belted mags."

Sad, but true. As much as I love .300 RUM (blessed overbore,) I don't currently have one, for just that reason. Dadburn rebated rims, anyhow. Maybe a Warbird in my future...


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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: hatton mann
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:46
Uncle Willie used to say : " make the shot w/ whatcha' got". Excellent


Posted By: gulf1263
Date Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:56
I have only used the .338 Win. Mag. and 12ga. Brenekes on large game. My .257 Weatherby was only used on a marmot.
If it does not want to trample, gore, claw or eat you then the lighter calibers work fine.
A 30/06 with premium bullets or a 7mm. Mag. with premium bullets can kill a large animal under normal hunting conditions, however when you become the target your chances greatly increase with the .338 Win. Mag. and above.
This pertains to bolt action rifles, not the large bore lever guns which are not as good for wacking a critter at ranges over 200 yards.
Larger bore, tough bullets and the ability to get off a second or third shot make the .338 Win. Mag. my choice for North America.
Stopping a charge with a smaller caliber might work once or twice but then you are screwed on the next one..I did not find it pleasurable and had to do it many times.
I could get multiple hits with the .338 Win. Mag. and stop the animal, my life was important and doing what I had to do was not an intellectual exercise.
I have actually seen the .338 Win. Mag., .358 Norma Mag. and .375 H&H Mag. stop bear charges numerous times.
I have seen the .458 Win. Mag. fail to stop an escaping bear because of poor shoot placement because of flinch.
The .338 Win. Mag. was at my recoil threshold, it was the most powerful rifle I could practice with that would let me deliver repeat shots accurately.
I would be happy to hear from those who have done it with repeatedly under unfavorable conditions with other calibers than the ones mentioned above.
I am sure folks from Africa have used the 9.3x62.
Again, this is my experience and yours may be different and I respect that.
Thanks
Art


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Good day.


Posted By: 3 Tuns
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 07:21
  The .338 WM is my favorite plains game cartridge.  Some game is big and tough and a heavy bullet is needed.  Sometimes they do not stand quietly, out in the open, and broadside.  Sometimes a second shot is required at something moving away from the rifle.  I don't hunt behind fences.
 
 
  You might run accross something at longer ranges than normal (gemsbuck or springbuck for example), so a fairly flat trajectory is good.  If it is a plains game and buffalo hunt I carry a .375, but with no buffalo it is usually a .338 WM.
 
 


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 08:08
 
 Seems to me what has been forgotten for yrs was what the main reason was for offering the larger capacity cases in any caliber.  To drive the heavier bullets of those calibers faster for better ballistics.  


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 08:15
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Personally this is the way I see it. 30 caliber and 7 mm caliber magnums are useless for big game stoppers. Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line. The 30-06 is perfectly adequate for deer and even elk if you keep the shots at 200 yards or less. I am in fact a 30-06 fan have been for years. For most of my hunting life I used the 30-06 and the 45-70 the latter especially when hunting off horseback. That said the 338 in any magnum configuration is  far superior to either cartridge, so is a 358 Norma magnum. Higher sectional densities and better BC's are the recipe for a successful and safe hunt. IMO I don't NEED anything bigger. I can prove that a 338 is just as good and in some ways superior to either the 30 cal magnums or the eyeball displacing 458/460 magnums The same argument could be used to showcase the 358 Norma. here is such a thing as too much velocity.

i would strongly disagree with that statement. the .300H&H and the .300wby both accounted for numerous dangerous game kills back in the day. 7mm ok, i may concede defeat there, not that i strongly back the 7mag any way. as far as my .375H&H goes, i would kill anything that walks the planet with that rifle and not feel under-gunned in any situation. as far as what your talking about here, throw b.c out of the equation, most shots are taken at bow ranges, sectional density and the makeup of the bullets materials trump b.c in this circumstance.
also, as the old saying in racing goes, there is not replacement for displacement, the larger the hole the better your chances get. now i will say that placement still has to be  there on dangerous game. you take a bad shot at a whitetail with a .458 lott and more than likely its gonna die right where it was shot regardless.


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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 10:04
I like 'em all... want one of each.  Each what you might say... EVERYTHING.
 
The 458 Lott is in a class by itself, as is 50BMG, but I really like my little 375H&H and my new 300H&H.  I don't really feel undergunned with either of those while whitetail hunting. 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 11:06
Years ago in the late 90's if memory serves me Guns&Ammo did an article based on over 20 years of compiled data on one shot stops on Kodiak and grizzly. This was quite an eye opener for those of us who hadn't been hunting up there. Of course the 458 win was the top of the heap the 460 roy was second due to it's 90+ lb recoil and often less than Ideal shots the majority by a vast amount were the 375's the 378 the 358 norma and 338's all of which performed extremely well. This is what will surprise some of you just below the mid mags was the good ol 45-70 with a 400+grain bullet, below that was the 30-06 with a 220 bullet, were below that the 308 with a 200 grain bullet. Guess what were the worst performers of all. The 300 magnums and at the very bottom the 7mm magnums.
           If you did a shot by shot evaluation of all these calibers, here was some interesting results
of all the top performers none achieved more than 2800 fps. The ranges with the really BIG mags tended to be fairly short 150 yards- In the mid mags the ranges were from 150 to300 for the initial shot. They did very well also. Now for the problem children here is what the majority of the guides said. The lighter caliber weapons such as the 308, the 06 and the 358 class non magnums are just not powerful enough to stop a big griz or a Kodiak The 06 barely makes it into the minimums as a charge stopper at close range with a 220 grainer. The 30 caliber magnums with the exception of the H&H drive even the heaviest bullets too fast. With a notable exception of one guide who would test his clients prowess with the rifle he or she brought. He would put up a pie plate at 100 yards they would shoot at it for five rounds. If they could keep all five shots in the plate shooting from their hind legs he would guide em letting them shoot their own weapon. Otherwise he gave them one of several 308's he had with 200 grain bullets and told em have at it while he carried a .338 win mag. He's never lost a client or a bear yet.

 Here is the criteria most guides want to see. 1 a minimum of a 210 grain bullet with a SD of 280 minimum. Velocity's between 2500 minimum and 2900 fps very maximum a scope of top quality variable between 3-9 power or a straight 4 power scope. The client CAN use open sights if he limits the first shot range to 125-150 max  They don't typically like semiautos they prefer to see the client with a bolt or single shot, maybe a lever if it meets earlier criteria. Above all be able to shoot well with whatever caliber you choose

This is what I base a lot of choices on due to the fact that these men stake their life on the abilities of their rifles and their judgement alone.


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 11:59
Right there with you kick boxer one of each for me as well just think of all the loads you could develop

                YEEEEEEEEYippee HAWW


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:25
id be willing to be that most of the "data" compiled over those years didnt take into account that bullets have changed a ton in the last 20 yrs. i bet a majority of the failures you mention werent the fault of the caliber or speed, but the the makeup of the bullet. you can say all you want, but if you shoot a tough animal with a deer bullet your not going to like the end results. i wouldnt hesitate to shoot any bear on the planet with my .300wby and a properly constructed bullet.  i would take a 200gr nosler or swift a-frame and kill things with no worries or failures as long as i did my part.

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:33
 
 I'd say this guys byline says it all.
 
  Phil Shoemaker
http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com" rel="nofollow - www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:40
as far as i know the animals havent got tougher over the years, i do know that materials used to construct bullets and the processes to make them has, and they are tougher. if a 30-06 worked in 1906 on bear im pretty sure it would work today too. im all for the elmer keith approach, but at the same time i realize i could get by with a lot less.

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:48
 
  Elmer Keith could've used your advice (doubt he would've taken it though).  He kept sticking with the heavier bullets even though newer (BETTER) designed lighter bullets gave the performance he wanted in a bullet.


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 15:18
Thats partly why I don't feel undergunned  when I am shooting a 250 grain premium bullet at 2746 fps and 4047 foot lbs of energy. Or 2575 fps with a 275 grain bullet for 4049 ft lbs.
Either load I have full confidence in for dangerous game. Just as I have full confidence in my 30-06's to kill any large game in the lower 48.Big Smile


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 15:41
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 
 I'd say this guys byline says it all.
 
  Phil Shoemaker
http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com" rel="nofollow -


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 16:21
notice the other calibers as well. Thats why I am more comfortable with a .338 win. I know it's plenty. the only other calibers I use for hunting are the 06 and the 45-70, by the way the article I referred to said the 06 and the 7mm are useless STOPPING A CHARGE.

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 19:27
Was this thread about dangerous game calibers, general hunting calibers, or what exactly?
 
preacherman, my response on your "useless" comment was regarding "stopping big game," and not charges, attacks,  or anything else you didn't mention.


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-Matt


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 19:37
Originally posted by gulf1263 gulf1263 wrote:

...If it does not want to trample, gore, claw or eat you then the lighter calibers work fine.
A 30/06 with premium bullets or a 7mm. Mag. with premium bullets can kill a large animal under normal hunting conditions, however when you become the target your chances greatly increase with the .338 Win. Mag. and above...
Thanks
Art
I'm happy to see so many .30-06 aficionados here and while I think .30-06 is the bee's knees in so many ways, if I were to hunt in grizzly country, I'm not so sure I'd be hunting with as thin a bullet as a .338.


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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 20:18
Big SmileThats why I tried to clarify it Matt ...My fault entirely my apologies .  The other thing I absolutely LOVE about the .338 is that it is such an inherently accurate and  easy to load for cartridge. It's not unusual to see 1/2 inch - groups with hand loads and 1-1/2 groups with factory. I also happen to lke the 458 for that reason but I wouldn't use it off the bench or to hunt with because I can't shoot them to their accuracy potential.

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 21:30
I really like a  .375 H&H back when I only had one rifle that was the one I had. 

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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: gulf1263
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 23:16
The 30/06 with tough, modern bullets can take large animals like elk and moose or bear but when it comes to stopping a charge, it just is not in the same league as the larger bore magnums. The three hundred magnums with a tough, heavy bullet are a little better but not in the same league as a .338 Win. Mag.
Load a 275 grn. Swift A-Frame into .338 Win. Mag. and with proper bullet placement it will stop things right now, amazing penetration and power delivery at the closer ranges. The same goes for the .358 Norma Mag. and the .375 H&H Mag. with proper bullets.
These calibers allow someone in reasonable shape to get another shot off, sometimes even a third if necessary. This because in bear country you can have more than one animal charge.
Go to a larger and more powerful caliber and you will need to be in very good shape and in excellent practice.
Again, the lighter calibers with strong, modern bullets will work under usual conditions, just make sure that if you go after something that can hurt you just make sure that you have suitable back up.
Native hunters here in Alaska use the 5.56 to shoot everything but every once in a while someone gets stomped, maimed or eaten.
I preferred to err on the side of of caution.
Thanks
Art


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Good day.


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/16/2012 at 23:41
.30-06: The Ultimate Grizzly Cartridge

by http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/40000" rel="nofollow - Outdoor Life Online Editor

“Anyone who says the .30-06 is not effective on brown bears or grizzlies either has never used one or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.”
—An Alaskan Bear Guide

When most people think of grizzly cartridges, something on the order of a .338 Win. Mag. is what usually comes to mind. The .375 H&H also ranks up there, or used to at any rate. I've killed a couple of bears with the .375 H&H and I'd certainly put it at the top of my list, though for reasons as much sentimental as practical.

Today, a lot more guys head north on bear hunts with souped-up .30-caliber magnums of some sort. I attribute this to the compromise that hunters who travel a lot reach to find that one "do it all" round that is big enough for heavy game and will shoot flat for longer shots they might encounter. By that yardstick it is hard to fault a .300 Win. Mag. or any of the newer or more exotic mags out there in .30 caliber.

I've never killed a grizzly but I would  be very comfortable using a .30-06 loaded with 180-grain bullets on one. But I'm also kind of a cartridge freak too. I like to shoot big stuff with small cartridges and vice versa. I've used a .260 Remington on elk and a .338 Federal on moose, neither of which are particularly large, and I've also used a .450 Marlin on caribou and have shot a whole petting zoo worth of critters—including the tiny duiker—with my .416 Rigby.

So is the .30-06 enough gun? Jack O'Connor killed a number of big bears with a .30-06 (more than with the .270, despite what some people say) and found it up to the task. And there's no doubt what my guide pal has to say on the subject.

Would you take one on your grizzly hunt?

—John Snow



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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 06:09
Originally posted by rustic rustic wrote:


I've never killed a grizzly but I would  be very comfortable using a .30-06 loaded with 180-grain bullets on one. 

Would you take one on your grizzly hunt?

—John Snow


Say What


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 07:40
 
   HEY Gulf,
   You heard of Nosler's soon to be released .338 cal 300gr Accubond?  B.C. of .720
 
 
   As far as the .30-06 goes?  From here:
 
   http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/
 
   "Rifles:  The 30-06 was large enough to kill the world’ record Brown bear and still is.  Bring a rifle you are comfortable with and can shoot well: Alaskan game may be larger than you are used to but proper bullet placement is still more important than muzzle energy and bullet construction more important than bore size. Sight in for 100 yards and bring two boxes of ammunition with heavy premium bullets like Barnes TSX, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-Frames, Federal Trophy Bonded or Woodleighs. If you need or desire a new rifle I recommend the .338 Win or .375 Ruger or H&H. Don’t forget extra scope covers."
 
 
 
 


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 08:35
my old man killed a black bear in the late 70's with his 30-06 using 180gr bullets. this was only a black bear, it took him 4 shots and he said it was pretty scary. course he wasnt to smart back then. the rifle had only been bore sighted, he didnt take the time to shoot it on paper first. guess you dont have time when you buy a new rifle the night before the big hunt.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 08:49
 
   From the many articles I've read over the yrs it seems back then and before they swore by certain 220gr bullets on bears and big stuff.  He didn't say where at on the bear the bullets hit?


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 08:58
i always used a 150gr bullet in my 06, it worked just fine on elk and deer. when i stepped up to a .300 i started to use 180gr bullets. same results, dead animals. the 270gr bullet i shoot out of my .375H&H will level any animal on this and just about every other continent in the world.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:19
 
 
     Just shows to go ya it's not the caliber used (within reason) it's a proper bullet in the proper place.


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:22
for me the formula is simple, ( in order of importance)  placement, proper bullet selection, proper distance from target. if you have all three of these right, you should have success every time.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:33
 
  I like your first point of criteria:placement.  I'm taking it to mean you'll also want the animal to be in what you consider a decent position for proper bullet placement.  


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:35
10-4

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:50
 
  It's just common sense.  I don't watch hunting shows any more but the ones that use to get me were ones where the client is asking the guide where he should put the bullet or the guide is having to tell the client to wait for the animal to get into a certain position. Do you really think there are that many guys hunting out there now that just don't have clue?


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:53
you might be surprised

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 09:57
 
  I hate to hear that.


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 10:45
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by rustic rustic wrote:


I've never killed a grizzly but I would  be very comfortable using a .30-06 loaded with 180-grain bullets on one. 

Would you take one on your grizzly hunt?

—John Snow


Say What


rustic quote


-------------
Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 10:57
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 
  It's just common sense.  I don't watch hunting shows any more but the ones that use to get me were ones where the client is asking the guide where he should put the bullet or the guide is having to tell the client to wait for the animal to get into a certain position. Do you really think there are that many guys hunting out there now that just don't have clue?


You got that right if they are out there you think see were to shoot first. It is not like gutting an animal were you just have to do it first to learn.
But the guide is put in a bit of spot though he has no idea how good of a shot the person is and  have'n to chase a gut shot. Good thing there is a edit room though or there would be no "hunting shows". Of course, with high fence hunting shows there no risk in any case. 


-------------
Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: Glock
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 11:20
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

for me the formula is simple, ( in order of importance)  placement, proper bullet selection, proper distance from target. if you have all three of these right, you should have success every time.



I have to agree with pryo here, it doesn't help having a big calibre if you can't hit the side of a barn at 50yards. Freind of mine who is rather on the large side had a 338 win, he wounded everything he shot with that rifle. Yet kills everything he shoots at with the 30-06, I eventually convinced him to sell the rifle. Even with his large size he is recoil shy, most people don't want to practice enough with larger calibre rifles. Due to felt recoil and the costs involved in practicing enough, to kill an animal with the first shot. I mean let's face it most people will not hestitate to fire a 100 rounds through a 223 at the range, but how many people will fire more than 20 rounds through a 338 or 375 on any given day? And when they do practice its from the bench and not field positions.

Regards Chris


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 11:42
when i shoot my H&H i shoot less than 20rds a session, the rifle is so accurate that usually 5rd is plenty enough, and its not really that fun to shoot at paper anyway. if you have dynamic targets like tv's and milk jugs full of water then yeah its fun to shoot. otherwise, a pistol or a .22lr is way more fun.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 14:12
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

when i shoot my H&H i shoot less than 20rds a session, the rifle is so accurate that usually 5rd is plenty enough, and its not really that fun to shoot at paper anyway. if you have dynamic targets like tv's and milk jugs full of water then yeah its fun to shoot. otherwise, a pistol or a .22lr is way more fun.
My .30-06s are good for all day at the range, but with my pals .458Win or .460 Bee, shootin' time doesn't last too long. I'm good for a magazine, maybe two with the Roy, if I don't have to spend too much time trying to find where it flung my glasses or rubbing salve on my poor ears when it rips off my earmuffs. He wants to sell it to me, but something holds me back...


-------------
"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 14:51
 
  That "something holding you back" is your survival instinct.  Big Grin


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 15:04
I have brother and a cousin both have 7mms mags my bother has 700 rem(older model) he doen't shot it much it because it has quite a kick to it(stock design I guess) My cousin has 110 savage in 7mm much less recoil(felt) then that rem. 

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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 15:15
 
  It can be the stock design of course but that stock fits/works for someone.  A properly fitting stock will make all the diff in the world. 


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 15:21
I have shot a 300wby mag a fair amount with 180's it has monte carlo stock like like all mark v's the felt recoil is not bad at all way less than my brothers 700 rem.

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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 15:29
 
  Yep.  The monte carlos are good at reducing felt recoil.  Especially the exaggerated one Weatherby is noted for.  I just had the one on my 9.3x62 M98 stock removed.  Just could warm up to the looks of it. 


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 16:00
As I get older obviously the less recoil the better. Like with my upland shotguns I had a benelli  M-1  but, overtime the recoil was affecting my shooting. I have a beretta 391 urika now much softer shooting makes for better grouse hunting days.




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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 16:41
i love my .300wby, its a dream to shoot.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 17:21
Recoil is our friend... well, I like it...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 17:30
Originally posted by Glock Glock wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

for me the formula is simple, ( in order of importance)  placement, proper bullet selection, proper distance from target. if you have all three of these right, you should have success every time.



I have to agree with pryo here, it doesn't help having a big calibre if you can't hit the side of a barn at 50yards. Freind of mine who is rather on the large side had a 338 win, he wounded everything he shot with that rifle. Yet kills everything he shoots at with the 30-06, I eventually convinced him to sell the rifle. Even with his large size he is recoil shy, most people don't want to practice enough with larger calibre rifles. Due to felt recoil and the costs involved in practicing enough, to kill an animal with the first shot. I mean let's face it most people will not hestitate to fire a 100 rounds through a 223 at the range, but how many people will fire more than 20 rounds through a 338 or 375 on any given day? And when they do practice its from the bench and not field positions.

Regards Chris

Shooting heavy bangers is rougher from "the bench" than from field positions, at least for me.  Recoil has never been a limiting factor for number of rounds I shoot. Enough to accomplish what I set out to do or pumped enough $5.00 bills through the barrel for one day have been the only limiters...

Well, once, I got a little cocky with the .458 Lott and did not weld it against my shoulder firing a full DG round (510gr at 2400fps, about 6800ft/lb MV).  I fired two more and went home with a good lesson learned.  I think about it now every time I shoot... won't happen again...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 17:51
When I was younger recoil was really nothing to me or... a least I thought. Maybe a macho thing or something but, a .308 is as big as I want to go for anything in north america or just shooting more than a few shots at a time.

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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 20:52
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:


Shooting heavy bangers is rougher from "the bench" than from field positions, at least for me. ..
Well, once, I got a little cocky with the .458 Lott and did not weld it against my shoulder firing a full DG round (510gr at 2400fps, about 6800ft/lb MV).  I fired two more and went home with a good lesson learned.  I think about it now every time I shoot... won't happen again...
You're definitely right about shooting off a bench vs. standing, etc... gotta roll with the punches. From what I've read/heard, Lott is better than the other .458s anyway. I've never fired a Lott, but have listened to you go on about yours and so kinda have developed a taste for one.
The Winchester is ok for me, but the Weatherby is pushing my limit.
 You can't even spot targets in real time when someone pulls the trigger- the earth quakes and the tripod shakes. It'd probably beat us up though, without that brake... all it really needs now is an actual recoil pad. Can you wear earmuffs and hunt horribilis?


-------------
"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: Alan Robertson
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 22:02
Here are some boys having fun with a .577 Tyranosaurus... (there will be be blood):



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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 22:16
Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Here are some boys having fun with a .577 Tyranosaurus... (there will be be blood):



Good God! funny, no big bores like that for me.


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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 22:39
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Years ago in the late 90's if memory serves me Guns&Ammo did an article based on over 20 years of compiled data on one shot stops on Kodiak and grizzly. This was quite an eye opener for those of us who hadn't been hunting up there. Of course the 458 win was the top of the heap the 460 roy was second due to it's 90+ lb recoil and often less than Ideal shots the majority by a vast amount were the 375's the 378 the 358 norma and 338's all of which performed extremely well. This is what will surprise some of you just below the mid mags was the good ol 45-70 with a 400+grain bullet, below that was the 30-06 with a 220 bullet, were below that the 308 with a 200 grain bullet. Guess what were the worst performers of all. The 300 magnums and at the very bottom the 7mm magnums.
           If you did a shot by shot evaluation of all these calibers, here was some interesting results
of all the top performers none achieved more than 2800 fps. The ranges with the really BIG mags tended to be fairly short 150 yards- In the mid mags the ranges were from 150 to300 for the initial shot. They did very well also. Now for the problem children here is what the majority of the guides said. The lighter caliber weapons such as the 308, the 06 and the 358 class non magnums are just not powerful enough to stop a big griz or a Kodiak The 06 barely makes it into the minimums as a charge stopper at close range with a 220 grainer. The 30 caliber magnums with the exception of the H&H drive even the heaviest bullets too fast. With a notable exception of one guide who would test his clients prowess with the rifle he or she brought. He would put up a pie plate at 100 yards they would shoot at it for five rounds. If they could keep all five shots in the plate shooting from their hind legs he would guide em letting them shoot their own weapon. Otherwise he gave them one of several 308's he had with 200 grain bullets and told em have at it while he carried a .338 win mag. He's never lost a client or a bear yet.

 Here is the criteria most guides want to see. 1 a minimum of a 210 grain bullet with a SD of 280 minimum. Velocity's between 2500 minimum and 2900 fps very maximum a scope of top quality variable between 3-9 power or a straight 4 power scope. The client CAN use open sights if he limits the first shot range to 125-150 max  They don't typically like semiautos they prefer to see the client with a bolt or single shot, maybe a lever if it meets earlier criteria. Above all be able to shoot well with whatever caliber you choose

This is what I base a lot of choices on due to the fact that these men stake their life on the abilities of their rifles and their judgement alone.
You lost me here. I guarantee you if you give me a grizzly bear, and my .300 Wby with the load, and bullet of my choice, he WILL go down! I don't care if the impact velocity is 3200 fps. Bullet technology has come a long ways. As far as bullets being too fast, and exploding, just try to explode something like a Barnes TTSX. You may knock the petals off of it, but not before they've done their damage, and the shank will continue to penetrate, and do more damage. With the monometal bullets, and all the bonded bullets we have right now, any caliber is better off than they were before all the new bullet technology.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 23:47
We all learn lessons different ways with different experiences. Here is my story and why I lost faith in 30 caliber magnums Not to say others don't have faith in them and justifiably so.

 I was hunting in the area I live in (we do have griz here) for deer and I had a close encounter with a LARGE GRIZ. Sparing you the sordid details He went on his was  and I backed up rapidly till I found a solid wall of rock behind me. I didn't have to shoot in defense thank God. I went out the next day to a different area and shot a nice buck at a range of 535 yards. My longest shot at game animals. Anyway I nailed him perfectly right in the heart .... he dropped like a stone when I started dressing him I noted there was no exit wound. When I got inside there was nothing left of that "premium bullet" but shards the size of a fingernail clipping if you had short clipped fingernails to begin with the jacket was found in a lung...... what was left of it. Needless to say I thought long and hard about the two incidents. If I had shot the griz in defense is all I'da done is piss him off and give him a hunger for hunters. The load was a 1/2 grain below max. a 200 grain "premium bullet" at around 2600 FT per second. The caliber ? an 06 I had killed over 20 deer and elk with an 06. That said one of MY criteria tops out with have confidence in your weapon, be able to shoot it well.


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/17/2012 at 23:57
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

We all learn lessons different ways with different experiences. Here is my story and why I lost faith in 30 caliber magnums Not to say others don't have faith in them and justifiably so.

 I was hunting in the area I live in (we do have griz here) for deer and I had a close encounter with a LARGE GRIZ. Sparing you the sordid details He went on his was  and I backed up rapidly till I found a solid wall of rock behind me. I didn't have to shoot in defense thank God. I went out the next day to a different area and shot a nice buck at a range of 535 yards. My longest shot at game animals. Anyway I nailed him perfectly right in the heart .... he dropped like a stone when I started dressing him I noted there was no exit wound. When I got inside there was nothing left of that "premium bullet" but shards the size of a fingernail clipping if you had short clipped fingernails to begin with the jacket was found in a lung...... what was left of it. Needless to say I thought long and hard about the two incidents. If I had shot the griz in defense is all I'da done is piss him off and give him a hunger for hunters. The load was a 1/2 grain below max. a 200 grain "premium bullet" at around 2600 FT per second. The caliber ? an 06 I had killed over 20 deer and elk with an 06. That said one of MY criteria tops out with have confidence in your weapon, be able to shoot it well.
 
I must say I am curious as to what "premium bullet" that was exactly.  That is an odd bullet performance given the low impact velocity.  I am not sure how that experience with an 30-06 caused you to lose faith in 30 magnums.
 
I hunt, and otherwise recreate in grizzly country often.  I carry the most effective caliber for bear protection - UDAP.  Mark knows a thing or two about aggressive bears himself:
 
http://www.udap.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.udap.com/
 
 


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-Matt


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 00:36
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

We all learn lessons different ways with different experiences. Here is my story and why I lost faith in 30 caliber magnums Not to say others don't have faith in them and justifiably so.

 I was hunting in the area I live in (we do have griz here) for deer and I had a close encounter with a LARGE GRIZ. Sparing you the sordid details He went on his was  and I backed up rapidly till I found a solid wall of rock behind me. I didn't have to shoot in defense thank God. I went out the next day to a different area and shot a nice buck at a range of 535 yards. My longest shot at game animals. Anyway I nailed him perfectly right in the heart .... he dropped like a stone when I started dressing him I noted there was no exit wound. When I got inside there was nothing left of that "premium bullet" but shards the size of a fingernail clipping if you had short clipped fingernails to begin with the jacket was found in a lung...... what was left of it. Needless to say I thought long and hard about the two incidents. If I had shot the griz in defense is all I'da done is piss him off and give him a hunger for hunters. The load was a 1/2 grain below max. a 200 grain "premium bullet" at around 2600 FT per second. The caliber ? an 06 I had killed over 20 deer and elk with an 06. That said one of MY criteria tops out with have confidence in your weapon, be able to shoot it well.
I can see how that would shake your confidence.......

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 10:56
Exactly. Between that experience and my inability to stalk much I felt I needed a little bigger rifle. The 06 is still my favorite rifle for critters up to elk within 300 yards. I have just lost confidence in her ability to stop critters that would enjoy my company for lunch. Sooo I went with the 338. I shot it better than any other mid sized magnum although I enjoyed trying an 8/68 S and the 325 win mag I found the "ultra mags" almost too much for what I want. By process of elimination I found the 338's a great compromise between raw power and recoil pain. I found that a .338 06 or a 338 win mag to be my favorites I waited for months for a 338-06 to show up one never did so when my 338 came up for sale for $350 I grabbed it. I would also be satisfied with a 358 norma, a 375 H$H or anything in-between.  During those months of waiting I studied up on ballistic performance of all those calibers
I must say if I didn't need loooong range I would own a 375 and load it down to where I was comfortable shooting it. If we didn't have BIG critters here I would also own a 358 win. It would shine in the thick woods of NW OR. Here though especially in the last 10 years or so the closest I have gotten close to elk was on private land. All the other elk I have had a shot at were between 400 to 600 yards...... to far for my 06. To tell the truth I am a 30 cal and bigger fan with the exception of the 5.56 NATO I own an M4 and I love it for wolves and small game, target and match.


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 11:54
What was that premium bullet that fragmented, preacherman.  I am genuinely interested.  Some bullets are premium in price, but not construction.

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-Matt


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 12:21
Alan, assume that indoor range was somewhere in the middle east where it is well known they have more money than brains.  Some of those boys damn near lost their towels.

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God save the Empire!


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 12:36
They were 200 grain Speers Grand slams if memory serves the deer was up sleeping child the griz was back of Gleason

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 12:51
I now shoot hornadys, their accuracy standards are the highest and they have never failed me even with 25 yard impacts.

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 13:39
So we're neighbors, eh preacherman?  You don't see many grizzlies in the 'root.  I remember a few years ago there was one feeding on a moose carcass up Burnt Fork.  I think they roam just about everywhere in Western MT, at least sometimes.   I would love to hear more about that encounter.  I know the game wardens here and they also love to hear about that kind of stuff.
 
I would also love to see your deer from Sleeping Child, I can never draw the tag.  You should post a pic.
 
The Grand Slams aren't what they once were.  The modern Grand Slam is a simple cup and core bullet, they don't even have the old dual-core construction anymore.  Add in their low ballistic coefficient, and why bother with them anymore.  They do say "premium" on the box, though.  I would recommend Nosler Accubond and Barnes TSX.  Trust me, the Barnes will NOT disintigrate. 


-------------
-Matt


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 13:54
Yup bear populations blew up this last 5 years last spring was THE most successful bear season ever.
 I used to run into griz on both sides when the F&G said there wasn't any in the state LOL lately I have seen many more wolves than Griz although I did see one this season past on St. Mary's. Up north of us there are even more... Off the res that is. I have had four encounters with griz since about 84


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 14:02
Matter of fact if I can walk at all this spring (I have one more hip getting put in on the 5th of march)
 I intend to blast a nice fat black bear If I can get one. I figure with my new .338 I should be able to drop one between 500 and 600 yards.


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/18/2012 at 14:06
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Yup bear populations blew up this last 5 years last spring was THE most successful bear season ever.
 I used to run into griz on both sides when the F&G said there wasn't any in the state LOL lately I have seen many more wolves than Griz although I did see one this season past on St. Mary's. Up north of us there are even more... Off the res that is. I have had four encounters with griz since about 84
 
I spent time on and around St. Mary's last year and saw a number of black bears, but no grizzlies, unfortunately.  I did see several grizzlies last summer up north, though.  I have never even cut a grizzly track in the Bitterroot.
 
I don't remember FWP ever saying there weren't any grizzlies in the state.  When was that?
 
During the summer of 1999 I worked in West Yellowstone for the Forest Service.  I inventoried trails on the Hebgen Lake District and saw many, many grizzly bears (some may have been the same bear at different times).  I had only one aggressive incident with a young male by Whit's Lake.  Never even used the spray, but I had it out.  I was, however, savagely pursued by moose on several occasions, and without cause.  I was minding my own business every time.
 
Sorry to hijack the thread.  I will keep my 30 and 7 magnums, but I also like the 338s.  Someday I will get one.


-------------
-Matt


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 10:08
I'm not the most experienced with bullets, but am quite surprised a bullet shot out of a 30-06 would frag like that at 500 yds!  how fast was it going at that distance?

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take em!


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 12:25
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line.


That blanket statement simply isn't true.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 12:29
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line.


That blanket statement simply isn't true.
 
Hard to imagine a Barnes TSX shattering at all.  I did have one lose a petal once, though.  It only retained 96% of its weight.


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-Matt


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 13:14
.when I say They shatter at that velocity I am speaking of the big three AND I have converted many many people here to the hornady bullet because of the same inconsistency's. Let me ask you.... what is the purpose of a 30 or 7 mm mag? Long range right??? Lead core bullets even with the best of jackets such as the Nosler and the Hornadys cannot be made hard enough and still retain malleability at that speed I know that because I owned a bullet company for quite a few years. These smaller diameter weapons are built to take game between 300 and 600 yards or there about. If you look at the retained energy that becomes obvious. However when making cores for said bullets if you add enough antimony to harden the lead to be strong enough to handle smacking into a bone at
3200 fps+  it has a tendency to make them brittle even with 8% tin for malleability. In short unless you have mass and hardness you don't really HAVE a good stopping bullet. Why do you think that they make solids for dangerous game? now when you switch to a different base metal it does handle the impact much better. Until I see proof in contrary to what I have seen in real life I will maintain that position. Now as to the recommendation for They maintain much tighter tolerances for weight and accuracy. I have NEVER had one shatter on me. Never. I have seen jackets separate but they always drive through the animal.  In order of beat to worst according to my research and their own admitted tolerance levels #1 Hornaday #2 Sierra and #3 speer. I put Nosler and Barnes and the few other "excellent" bullets in a totally different classification. When I have to shell out $75-$125 per hundred Thats a different story.

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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 13:36
Tip 69 I don't remember the loads downrange stats but at muzzle it was 2650 or so by My CHRONY.
 s to whether that blanket statement is true......... I am referring to the big three not specialty bullets.
 The other thing you may wish to think about is empirical evidence I have seen with my own admittedly mediocre eyes both Sierra and Speer shatter on DEER mostly muleys. When I ride in 20 miles or so into the Pintler Anacondas, or the Sapphires or the Bitterroots I want to KNOW beyond doubt that if I have to fight a big griz for my horse or my own treasured hinney from an angry mama moose My ammo WONT FAIL. Most of the time I have hunted alone. That will change but my attitude about small diameter magnums probably won't. If you have a 30 caliber mag GOOD shoot at 250+ and you will not have a problem after all thats what they are made for!!!Big Smile


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 13:36
I'll answer your questions in detail later when I have time, but tell me... when is ANY bullet from a magnum catridge EVER actually contacting game at 3100, much less 3200 FPS?  Short of 7RUM (168 gr and under) and .30-378 (180 gr. and under) at 100 yds and less, actual impact velocity will be much lower unless the critter is right in front of the muzzle.

As for the lead core comment, there are and have been quite a few all-copper, monolithic, controlled expansion premium bullet designs (X, TSX, TTSX, E-Tip, GMX, etc.) available for quite some time that will stay together at magnum impact velocities.

You're making a ton of generalizations and assumptions that are leading you astray.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 13:40
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Here is the criteria most guides want to see...


Really?  Did you talk to "most guides" personally?  Was there a poll taken from "most guides?"  Where can I find this survey?  That encompasses a heckuva lot of people.

I hunted with an elk guide once who emphatically recommended .300 Win Mag with 180 gr bullets as a minimum.  Does that mean he wasn't included in the poll?


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 13:47
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Let me ask you.... what is the purpose of a 30 or 7 mm mag? Long range right??? 


And for being able to deliver heavier, higher SD bullets of the same caliber as non-magnum chamberings for less wind drift, higher retained impact velocity, and greater penetration of heavier bones and muscles.

Before going any further, understand that bullet design (integrity, ballistic coefficient, mass) and matching said bullet to the impact velocity has more influence on cartridge performance than any other factor, and is FAR more important than the case volume it was launched from.  Digest that concept for awhile and I'll get back to you on this topic.

Suffice it to say, even though your basic premise -- that a .30-06 will do most of what a magnum round will do most of the time -- is valid, the rest of your assumptions are incorrect and too simplistic.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: preacherman
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 14:03
"Patient sigh" Guns and Ammo One Shot Stops on Kodiaks late 90's if memory serves. And the survey was is specific to Bears and one shot stops I have killed quite a few elk in my time with a plain ol 06. If you have a 30 cal magnum fine by all means use it this thread is about MID CALIBER MAGNUMS.
   That would be 8mm and up I am of the opinion I am due to personal experience with bullet failure's on deer and elk. It's my opinion. Personally I don't care to get rude or fight with people....... just exchange opinions and the whys. I already pointed out that the bullets I was referring to were the big three and lead based NOT Nosler or Barnes.
Good day


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men with guns who are free are called "citizens" without weapons they are called "subjects and or slaves"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 14:47
preacherman,
 
This is how you started this thread off (your second post):
 
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

are they just "gimmic" weapons that look good on paper and are pretty? What purpose can there possibly be for them? Seriously
 
It seems that you were trying to bait an argument, and then switch to a middle caliber proponent.
 
Then you brought in the "useless"-ness of 30 cal and 7mm magnums and "premium" bullets.  Ted (and myself) pointed out that some bullets make them extremely usefull.  Then you said you didn't mean those bullets, you meant standard-construction bullets from the "Big Three."  I assume you mean Hornady, Speer, and Sierra, and not Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leica. 
 
It is hard to understand what you are getting at in this thread.  Hornady cup-and-core bullets are good?  Middle Magnums are good? bad?  Fast 7s and 30s are bad?  200 grain Speers disintigrate at long range and low impact speed?  Fast 30s are bad because an 30-06 failed?  I'm sorry I don't follow.
 
Furthermore I have spent hundreds of days in the mountain ranges you mention, and have never seen a grizzly there, so I will be taking the caliber I use for the game I am hunting.
 
I have heard some anecdote's from you about bullet performance, so I will give you one.  Last season my partner shot a very nice bull in the Sapphires with a 300 RUM at 40 yards.  The bullet impacted with a lot of velocity.  It was a 200 grain Nosler Accubond that performed perfectly leading to a quick, clean kill.  I would let you know the weight retention, but it fully penetrated.


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-Matt


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 15:10
I bought some Federal PowerShok 30-06 165 grain soft point boattail on sale a few years ago... $14.00/box.  Shot two hogs, one at 40yds, one at under 40yds... one was a "trophy".  BOTH hogs ran off into the "underbrush", found neither until the buzzards found them.  Bullets fragmented on impact... nasty.  They died miserable deaths.  Federal did not even respond when I wrote them about it.  I don't buy Federal ammo anymore...  Maybe just a fluke, but not a chance I'll take again.  I've always thought that they knew and that is why the ammo was "on closeout sale"...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Glock
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 15:41
How often do you guys see said Bears when hunting? And when you do see them are they are problem, or do they tend to run off. My experience in SA is that wild animals tend to run off when they see you, even ones that can kill stomp or eat you. Guys that get killed or maimed are mostly due to wounded animals, that are being followed up on.

Regards Chris


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 16:09
Originally posted by Glock Glock wrote:

How often do you guys see said Bears when hunting? And when you do see them are they are problem, or do they tend to run off. My experience in SA is that wild animals tend to run off when they see you, even ones that can kill stomp or eat you. Guys that get killed or maimed are mostly due to wounded animals, that are being followed up on.

Regards Chris
 
I have seen them on and off.  They are not really something I worry about terribly.  I keep a clean camp, hang my food, and keep my wits about me.  I carry bear spray, as it is statistically the most effective bear attack deterrent.  Most of the attacks are similar to those you described.


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-Matt


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 17:00
Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

Originally posted by Glock Glock wrote:

How often do you guys see said Bears when hunting? And when you do see them are they are problem, or do they tend to run off. My experience in SA is that wild animals tend to run off when they see you, even ones that can kill stomp or eat you. Guys that get killed or maimed are mostly due to wounded animals, that are being followed up on.

Regards Chris
 
I have seen them on and off.  They are not really something I worry about terribly.  I keep a clean camp, hang my food, and keep my wits about me.  I carry bear spray, as it is statistically the most effective bear attack deterrent.  Most of the attacks are similar to those you described.

Some people make the mistake of thinking their "self defense" pepper spray is equivalent.  It's not.  The stuff used against bears is POTENT and if used properly, according to anecdotal evidence, will almost always repel a bear.  I've hiked a few places where bears were "common", but the defensive sprays available now were not available then.  Always carried a pretty hefty revolver.  I would like to have both...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 17:40
 
  I've mentioned somewhere around here that I bought my uncle a bear repellant I ordered from Alaska but anyway I do remember it said on it DEFINITELY NOT to spray humans.  We're only talking black bear but when they lose the fear of man and populate to the numbers they had it got to the point people were carrying rifles when they mowed their lawns or walked any distance from safety.


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: February/20/2012 at 17:56
KB, there is research to support the effectiveness of bear spray, not just anecdotal evidence. 
Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, UDAP Pepper Power is the best bear spray available, IMO. 


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-Matt



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