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Hard Data Vs. Ballistic's Chart

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Topic: Hard Data Vs. Ballistic's Chart
Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Subject: Hard Data Vs. Ballistic's Chart
Date Posted: January/26/2012 at 23:39
What is the deal with "modern day shooters" and their



Replies:
Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 12:14
not sure what your getting at? 
felt recoil has nothing to do with differences in bdc and dialing in
accuracy of any measuring system depends on how many significant figures before or after the system and not inherent in the system itself. moa is not more accurate than mil per se only to the significant figures of the calculation.
the only thing I can conclude from your post -  is you haven't used bdc very much



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I love little league baseball-- it keeps the kids out of the house
Yogi Bera



Posted By: jjrgr21
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 14:04
whats your point? are you refering to bdc charts as in software programs to aid in drop estimation? if so, yeah, it's better to have hard data than to rely strictly on software, but having both doesn't hurt. SOCOM has been rockin the KAC software for a while. but they also have hard data, so the software just aids in environmental adjustment.

but i'm still not sure what your point is, in the comparison of the felt and free recoil. when you squeeze the trigger, you feel the recoil.


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 14:37
Out of all that there is only one thing I can agree with: using a BDC reticle is problematic. (I'm not saying that they can't work for some shooters).

Otherwise, the OP reads like someone drank a lot of whiskey, copied a bunch of stuff off the Internet, posted it, then drank some more, quoted himself and reposted it. Well, at least you have a lot of bottles to shoot at to acquire your "hard" data.

Of course there are some nuggets of truth buried in there. Of course you should verify your drops by actually shooting. And it may be that the way you use the rifle, particularly at longer distances may affect your point of impact. But let's get it straight about ballistics calculators. They are meant to measure external ballistics and are pretty good at it, if the right inputs are entered.

Also, there is no need to shoot every 25 yards or meters to verify drops. 100 yard/meter increments will do.

Finally, while 1/4 MOA clicks (.26" @ 100 yards) are a bit finer than 1/10 mil clicks (.36" @ 100 yards) who can shoot within 1/10th of an inch? Mils are just fine and are not too coarse. And forget about this nonsense that you should have a scope with a mil reticle and MOA turrets. That is just carrying on a tradition of mathematical misery. Either go mil/mil or MOA/MOA.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 14:57
It's a wordy post, I'll have some whiskey in a bit and try to read it, will let you know if it makes sense to a slightly inebriated Coolaid.

I do agree BDC reticles are not an "out of the box" solution, everything should be verified on the range with THE gun, THE ammo, THE shooter, THE range, and THE shooting conditions.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 17:35
I ca't make much sense of that post, but what little I can figure out I mostly disagree with.

I do not like BDC reticles in SFP scopes, so perhaps there is some agreement there.  

The rest makes no sense.

ILya


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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 17:45
Oh, and for the record, there is a MUCH bigger difference between a 4mm wrench and 10mm wrench than between 9/16" and 3/4".  Also, unless your garage is very small, it is hard to resolve which exact kind of a wrench you are looking from all the way across it.

Also, the MOA vs Mil argument presented is kinda idiotic.

ILya


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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:16
Out of all who responded to my post, how many are actual school trained snipers?  Anyone? 

Okay, let's add something else, how many here with combat experience as a sniper?

And to answer the guy with the cowboy picture by his name, I copied nothing from the internet.  This is all part of my curriculum that I teach.  You're welcome to give me a call or visit me in person if you still have an issue with me.  My website is www.vxmarksmanship.com  and my contact information can be found there.

And for those of you who still care to learn more about what you didn't understand from my earlier post.  Felt recoil is very important, because it's your shoulder!  The way you shoot effects the vertical, horizontal, torsional, and compressional whip reaction of a barrel.  HARD DATA does not lie.

The reason that I brought it up, is because ballistics chart can be calculated through the laws of physics.  Physics can only account for one type of recoil in dealing with this subject, which is "free recoil." 

And how come nobody has anything to say about environmental conditions effecting your data??  Was that stupid too?  Or do you just not understand that as you gain elevation the air gets thinner and creates less drag externally on your round.  Or that as a storm rolls in the barometric pressure drops and again creates less drag on your round.  Or that as temperature decreases the air gets thicker and creates MORE drag on your round.  How do you adjust?  Wait a second, the BDC should know that right??? Does it? 






Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:47
One more note for the cowboy picture guy:

When I was at the Nightforce factory in Orifino, ID I asked Jeff Huber a similar question about why we should have a mil-dot reticle with a minute turret?  I was so used to the Schmidt & Bender with the mils and mils system, and I liked it!  He explained to me about the refined accuracy that minutes allow Vs. mils.  My response was similar to your response to me...that 1/10 mil is almost as good as 1/4 minute.  But this is at a 100 yards.  What about 400?  What about 1000? 

Most of the shots I was having to take involved shooting from anything but the prone or "benchrest" position.  I had a my data memorized for both of my guns in mils in increments of 50m out to 900m.  When I began operating with a mil reticle and minute turret adjustment scope, I just multiplied my mils by 3 and a 1/2 to get my minute data when I needed to.   Since, I'm sure you know that the conversion from minutes to mils is 3.438 minutes per mil, right?




Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:48
Let's see a copy of your military training as a sniper, and records as a "combat sniper."

Doesn't matter whether you are using a BDC or mil-dots, you have to learn to use each correctly to make the best use of each type.  


Also, I guess you better got get a scope that 1/128th adjustments so you can hit the left mm of that flies wing at 1000 yards.

Most people won't continually shoot a gun that doesn't feel good to them.  Not sure on your argument that a well rounded shooter will only use a mil-dot moa system.  Shouldn't a "well rounded shooter" be able to use any effectively?  Or maybe "felt recoil" is only minimized by a mil-dot moa system?


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:52
helo18 guy,

Go take a visit to my website www.vxmarksmanship.com and you can find my bio there. 

You can call the number on the contact page right if you like, I'll answer.


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:56
hel18:

Waiting on your phone call to verify who I am???


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:00
helo18:

Still waiting on a phone call to verify who I am...


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:01
There are plenty of people that go around on the internet claiming to be sniper trained and combat experience.  You come in here new to the site claiming things.  Of course we are going to ask for proof.  Get your panties out of a bunch.

I won't question your ability to shoot, but I would caution you to not question the ability of members on this site.  There are many here that can shoot.  There are many here that could probably teach you far more about physics and the effect of the environment on the bullet than learned or teach. 

There are people on this site that design bullets, know the concepts behind them, how they operate at speeds and in different weather and conditions.  It does not take away from a shooter having to know how to shoot.

My word of caution for you.  Don't come in here acting like you know the most about long range shooting and everyone else in here should drop everything to listen to your opinion only.

Thank you for your service to our country.  I am sincerely grateful for it. Salute


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:03
oh, and calling does nothing to verify who you are.  You could call me and I could tell you anything I want, but without records, you wouldn't believe me.

If you care to give me a free class, I will come down to your range, sit through it, and then tell this forum what I think.


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:14
Helo18:

This is exactly why I had you go to my website.  It would be illegal for me to advertise myself as a corporation.  My number is the only one on the contact page.  I will not post a dd214 of my military service records online.  My company services civilians, law enforcement, and military snipers. 

Again, take the time to look through my website www.vxmarksmanship.com

I don't sell anything but a a few AR500 targets and instruction.  I'm not sponsored by any name brands.  I'm an instructor. 

Again, I'm waiting by my phone.  What are the odds that my website is illegally respresented on the web as corporation with my phone number on the contact page and when you call I'll be the one that actually answers?  I'm just sayin.

I will not give you a free class.  But you are welcome to pay, and join in the next law enforcement precision rifle course if, of course you are currently active duty military or law enforcement.  We'd love to have you.






Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:25
Helo18:

My "panties are not in a bunch" but it cracks me up to hear you say that. 

I'm simply responding to the responses I received from my original article. 

I was called an idiot, intoxicated, inebriated, and inexperienced.  I have not called anyone else names??  Why would my "panties be in a bunch."

All of my experience comes from, well, practical experience and testing and testing and testing.  I have dealt with bullet manufacturers, scope manufacturers, and rifle manufacturers over and over, who were looking for our "thumbs up" on their products.  I never claimed to be smartest.  We simply tested everything with an objective mindset. 

I originally wrote my article, because I wanted to see what the response would be, because I have heard good things about the intellectual and experience levels of the members of this website.  I have noticed several trends that bother me and prompted me to write the article in the first place.  These trends are made by those who do not understand the importance of hard data Vs. relying on ballistic reticles. 

  


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:27
I have no need to call you.  And I will not pay to take a class from someone I know nothing about when I can get the same or better training from people I personally know and trust.

I am not questioning your corporation.  You came on here and made a claim, and I questioned it based on the many false claims on the internet.  You provided your site and I won't question it.

You may be an amazing shot. And be able to teach others to shoot.  But as I said, be careful what you claim is the best method around here, because there are people that know as much or more than you in the areas you talk about.





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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: ckk1106
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:31
I wish I had known that this was an advertisement before I read all of that.  


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:44
Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:

I wish I had known that this was an advertisement before I read all of that.  

Laugh Above


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:16
I hope the OP is not an indication of how clear the class instruction is.
 
 
BDC reticle systems are sufficiently precise to extend the range of most shooters to those ranges reasonably past MPBR.  They sure are better than the old "Hold just over his back!"
 
Some BDC systems like the MIL subtended BRH/BRX reticles or Premier BDCs are really usefull to the experienced shooter.
 
As always, verify your dope with real-world shooting (or is it hard data?).
 
 


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-Matt


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:20
A shooter well versed in physics will immediately know the answer to this question: What does a bullet do immediately upon leaviing the barrel?  Simple question, simple answer... what say you "VX guy"?

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:44
First off, I'm new to the forum so I'd like to say Hello to everyone. 

As a former scout sniper, I was looking around to see if there was a forum where I could kick back and shoot the breeze about precision, long-range tactical shooting with other former or current snipers, and I came upon this one.

If this is, in fact, a discussion is about the usage of BDCs vs. hard data and the viability of minutes over mils with respect to dope settings and adjustments for precision, long-range firing solutions then I have to agree w/ VX Marksmanship that hard data and minute adjustment capability are the preferable way to go in long-range tactical shooting for a sniper.

I'm very accustomed to MIL-MIL orientation and I have no problem with it but my preference would be to be able to make minute adjustments over mil when shooting at distances greater than 500 yds. Also, I see the benefit of the BDC for those, especially for hunters, who shoot out to distances of say 300-500 yds. but for precision tactical shooting well beyond 500 yds., I would not even consider using a BDC and always use hard data.

Any other former 8541s here in the forum? If so, you'll remember as I do that during Scout Sniper School, the use of the Unertl BDC was verboten (we all considered them a crutch for something that should be part of the individual's core skillset) and in our advanced training we definitely grew to appreciate the value of hard data. I also remember all the discussions among us concerning the value of minute turrets over mil.

Are people's opinions about the original article directed toward precision, long-range tactical use or just in general? Just trying to understand where everyone's coming from. And again, I'm new here and I'm hoping to have some good conversations about tactical optics and shooting w/ others, especially, other 8541s, 0317s and LE snipers, too.




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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:50
By the way, that spinning Taz avatar is pretty cool. I'm trying to put up an avatar but I'm not sure how to get it on my profile yet. Still working on setting profile info up.

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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:59

Welcome to the forum, FRM. 

I agree with the utility of MOA/MOA vs mil/mil, but prefer mil/mil to mil/MOA.  I agree that BDC has a fine application for hunting, which I believe is where most people use it.  However, with new PDF and smartphone technology, BDC's can be calculated very rapidly.  They no longer present many of the limitations they once did.  I'm not lobbying for them, just can see the utility.  I have a couple of hunting rifles with BDC scopes.  They, like any other tool, require constant and consistant use for rapdi and effective employment. 

Glad to have you aboard...



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:02
Force Recon:

Thanks for speaking up in this conversation.  Can you make sure that you take a close look over my original post and see if you can find anything wrong with my thought process?  Is this not what we were not only trained, but applied and tested?  I am also an 8541.  Some of these people think that I'm just here for advertising.  It's good to know that I can talk with someone that's understands my argument. 

-Dan


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:05
Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

By the way, that spinning Taz avatar is pretty cool. I'm trying to put up an avatar but I'm not sure how to get it on my profile yet. Still working on setting profile info up.

Thank you... Taz is my alter ego.

You have to go to "edit profile" and "select avatar"...  load the avatar.

 
 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:09
Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Are people's opinions about the original article directed toward precision, long-range tactical use or just in general? Just trying to understand where everyone's coming from. And again, I'm new here and I'm hoping to have some good conversations about tactical optics and shooting w/ others, especially, other 8541s, 0317s and LE snipers, too.
I can't speak for the others, but my post was regarding the lack of clarity in the original post (I can't say it was much of an "article"). What was the OP's point?
BDC reticles work out to moderate ranges? 1/4 MOA adjustments are finer than 0.1 MIL? You should use field-verified data for long range corrections? Shooting from the shoulder affects your dope (or maybe POI)?
It was kind of hard to tell, and some let the OP know about it. His response was, "I'm a marine sniper and you aren't, so you suck."   This is kind of offensive to some.
 
VX Marksmanship,
 
Can you clarify what your intention was in posting the original post.  Before you ask to see my papers, I am not an 8541.


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-Matt


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:32
Originally posted by VX Marksmanship VX Marksmanship wrote:

1/10 mil is almost as good as 1/4 minute.  But this is at a 100 yards.  What about 400?  What about 1000
 
The difference between a 1/10 MIL and 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards is about .98 inches.


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-Matt


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:35
Bitterroot Bulls,

I finally figured out what OP meant!  Sorry for the delay.  My response was never "I'm a marine sniper and you aren't, so you suck."  Can you please find a quote of mine that says that specifically?

My original intent was to hear feedback from what I thought (and still may be) an intelligent tactical optic's audience.  I wanted to find out what the deal was with so many people relying on BDC's.  I see now, that it's just a lack of training.  And no, this does not mean you have to be a school trained sniper.  I know several shooters that have no military or law enforcement experience, but understand long range shooting and optic's consideration.  I am not sponsored by any optics, allow they stop by all the time and harass me with phone calls at my business V X Marksmanship LLC.  I prefer to teach true long range shooting and make well-rounded shooters without them questioning my motivations. 

Does this answer your question, Matt?

Dan


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:40
Bitteroot Bulls,

As far as your comment about the 1000 yard and the difference between 1/4 moa and 1/10 mil being negliable....You're right!  I agree.  But I still think that having a minute turret adj with mil-dot reticle makes a well-rounded shooter because it puts the shooter through the exercise of understand minute and mil conversions.  Most scopes to include cheap-expensive have minute adj turrets and if I'm going to make well-rounded shooters, I want that shooter to be able to handle any weapon's system that available to them.  And yes, this would include a BDC system, but we all know where I stand on that issue by now...

Dan


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/27/2012 at 23:58
VXM,
I was referring, of course, to the tone of your post, and how it came across, rather than a specific quote. I am sure you can find the patronizing condescension in the following quote:
Originally posted by VX Marksmanship VX Marksmanship wrote:

Out of all who responded to my post, how many are actual school trained snipers?  Anyone? 

Okay, let's add something else, how many here with combat experience as a sniper?

 
 
There are a lot of experienced shooters on this site from military, LE, and civilian life. 
 
I can give an answer to your question about modern shooters relying on simplilfied BDC systems.  It is because they work within their limits.  As far as why some people use these systems past their limits, instead of aquiring the proper training and skills, I answer your question with a question:  Why do people do stupid things?
 
Your original post lumps all BDC reticles into the same category while I think Horus, Premier, and others would take issue with being lumped in with Nikon's silly circle-BDC-thingy.
 
I hope you stick around, share your thoughts, and listen to those of others.


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-Matt


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:07
Matt,

I agree that did sound condescending.  I was responding to condescending remarks towards me being inebriated, an idiot, and experienced.  I was waiting for an intelligent reply to my OP, and just hadn't seen one yet.  My past conversions regarding this topic were around other LE snipers and military snipers, and I had never really experienced any of the ridiculous comments that I've heard through this website before.  I'm not a chatter, so I'm learning how things work here.  I simply wanted to get some feedback. 

I have no doubt that there are other experienced shooters here, and again, I look forward to intelligent responses.

At my school, I deal with "experienced" shooters from all walks of life, and I always learn from my students and other instructors.  I'd be ignorant if I didn't.   


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:14
Matt,

Oh, forgot to mention one more thing.  I own one of the Horus scopes that was given to me by the owner.  And it's not a BDC.  It's Christmas tree mil system.  I used for long range shooting with the M107.  And I have used for the .308, but I prefer to use that scope for just extreme long range, because the reticle is a little busy.

I have also used the Leupold fixed 3 power with a BDC system on a graduated M14.  And used the S&B on the M40-A3 and A5, and the Nightforce NXS 3.5x15 on the XM-3 suppressed, and the newer version of the S&B on the MK11 (orAR10) platform. 

All of these systems served a purpose, and my opinions come from personal experience.  They all have pros and cons.  Some are simply better than others.  But certain facts remain, and that's what my OP was all about. 

Dan


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:28
VXM,
 
I am sorry you did not find my responses intelligent.
 
I think saying the Christmas Tree reticles aren't BDCs isn't quite accurate.  They are not simply ranging reticles, they are used to compensate for bullet drop (and drift).  They are quite accurate for long range solutions (especially when combined with matching turrets), and faster in use than traditional dialed solutions, in my experience.  I agree that they are definitely busy.


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-Matt


Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:35
Do the terms "grid pattern," "Christmas tree," "inverted diamond," GEN I or GEN II mil-dots mean anything to anyone here?




Posted By: VX Marksmanship
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:40
Alright, this concludes my once in a life-time chatting experience online.  I hope my original post shed some light on a sniper's opinion of hard data Vs. BDC. 


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:45
I really don't know a whole lot of what was talked about here... just bits and pieces I guess. Would like to learn more.
IMO though, I hate BDC type reticles I've had a couple of different ones. Used them for a hunt was very dissatisfied went back to a simple duplex and then went to a duplex with CDS type dials have not looked back since with zero regret's.

Again, IMO that is a must on this forum.Wink
 

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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:46
Interesting that VXM and Force Recon both used the term "article" in reference to VXM's first post.  Also intersting both went offline at the same time right after VXM's last post.  I think their IP address similarities might be interesting as well.

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-Matt


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:51
Well thought out BDC reticles have their place.
For me they are limited after a certain point/distance. 
But if they are designed within a hunter/shooter limits, they can work good and quick.
IF you understand the different subtensions between the lines,  it allows you to dial off of the lines or even reticle range with them.
I started distance shooting using a BDC reticle, and did quite well with it.
I don't use them today though.

I would much rather have FFP MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL for field shooting, hunting, and tactical matches.  SFP for bench matches and LR pding.  If Dialing with a reticle, keep it the same, and make sure he has a zero stop.
Give them a systems approach that is as idiot proof as possible.
When teaching a new shooter, I don't see the need to for them to understand both or try to use both when under pressure/stress and shooting under time or for score,  a hunt of a lifetime or worse yet, if their life depended on it.  Loco
Sort of a KISS methodology.
When testing students on their own with no help or coaching, many times you will see the "wheels fall off of the bus", as they are trying to absorb so much info in a short period of time. 
Even though the previous day with the help of a spotter or instructor they were drilling a hole in the target. 
Now on their own, under time, being graded and every one watching them, they are trying to think of so many things.  Ranging in Mils, then using MOA for drop, or dialing in MOA and dope wind with a MIL reticle just gets confusing sometimes.

Just because that is what has been used by the military or LEO's doesn't mean it is the best-No offense to those serve.  Many times they have to use what they are told to use, and they do a good job with it.

I don't care whether one uses MIL or MOA, I will just emphasize and recommend staying with a matched system.  I prefer MOA-Doesn't make it better, It is easier for me.
Can I make quick field conversion from MILS to MOA?  Yes, but why if I don't have to?
You can reticle range just as accurately with MOA as you can MIL.   And I only do that if a match requires it or my technology fails.
Accuracy will depend upon the quality of the reticle set-up and the users familiarity and practice with it.
My job doesn't require me to know either MILS or MOASnoopy
I shoot distance for fun, and compete (500-1K) for fun. 
I shoot and hunt at distance because I like to.
And at that, most of the time I do it with a single-shot specialty pistol.Bandito
I'm sort of simple-minded and math challenged, so that is how I "skin the cat" most of the time.




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Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 00:51
Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

Interesting that VXM and Force Recon both used the term "article" in reference to VXM's first post.  Also intersting both went offline at the same time right after VXM's last post.  I think their IP address similarities might be interesting as well.


Good eye.


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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 01:16
VXM - I carefully read through your original post. I think the point you're trying to make is the fact that there is a trend of people (not necessarily snipers) who shoot long-range tactical rifles demonstrating a greater emphasis on technology and other shooting aids versus an emphasis on developing and utilizing strong fundamentals of long-range marksmanship to achieve superior results and, as a result, they are losing out on certain core competencies necessary in precision, long-range tactical shooting. I'm trying to be clear on this, so correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, good to see there's another 8541 in the group. I don't see anything in the original post that isn't consistent with what we were taught at formal schools or performed in the field. As an 8541, you already know that we trained a ton and tested a lot of weapons and optics platforms, and we only used equipment and TTP in the field that was proven.

It seems that you work more closely with law enforcement and the general civilian community than I did, so you would better understand current trends and what they indicate. My experience with outside organizations is predominantly special operations units within the U.S. and abroad with limited exposure to law enforcement (FBI HRT was the main LE agency we worked with).

As I previously mentioned, I'm not a fan of BDCs for precision, long-range tactical use. We're responsible for making those critical decisions and there's a reason for it. It's also why we emphasized this to any SWAT teams we trained. Now the application of the BDC for game hunting within 500 yds., on the other hand, is a different story.

As far as having the ability to make as fine an adjustment that I can, especially, with respect to 700-1,000+ yd. shots, I have a strong proclivity toward minute adjustments but I can live with mil adjustments if that's what the scope dictates. 

As team leader, I always stressed to my men the importance of the fist sized group at extreme distances in extreme conditions. Remember the fist rule? The skilled scout sniper should be able to execute fist sized groups or better at extreme distances in extreme conditions, which demonstrates the ability to achieve immediate, killing shots to the heart or head while also demonstrating the ability to destroy or render ineffective key enemy equipment.

Hey, where where you guys shooting when you were using the ATVs? Noticed that in the avatar. Pretty cool.


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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 01:35
Bitterroot - First, I have to say that I'm jealous of the pic in the avatar. I went out to Wyoming many years back but that was for black bear.

I'm not sure about what you mean concerning timing of my posts. I'm a night owl and I also follow some 1911 forums and I check back and forth on forums b/c at this time of day, there's not much on the tube.

Not sure about IP address thing, either. I live in Grapevine, TX if that means anything. If you're suggesting that I'm in collusion somehow w/ VXM or that I'm him, then I think you're getting a little paranoid. I'm here to discuss tactical optics and their practical application and I hope to meet some new and interesting people along the way, including fellow 8541s.

I'm especially interested in how civilians are applying long-range tactical systems to hunting and recreational shooting, too. It appears that a number of folks here would fall into this category. My hunting doesn't really require any significant long-range techniques or weapon platforms b/c the places where I hunt doesn't require me having to make a shot over 100 yds. I think the farthest shot I had to take while hunting was in Vermont when I got a trophy Russian Wild Boar, which was about 75 yds.


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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:00
Worry not, FRM.
I just made a curious observation.  Perhaps Marine Snipers just think alike. Wink
 
I'm glad you like the avatar pic.  Mule deer are a bit of an obsession for me.  You should make a trip to MT to chase them around.  The opportunities for a "longer" shot in MT are many.
 
I really hoped VXM would stick it out and add to the forum, but apparently he didn't like what I had to say.  Maybe it was my loose definition of BDC.
 
I have some formal training in long range shooting, and I apply it to my hunting.  Lately, however, I have been using reticle holds rather than dialing while hunting, as it is more convenient in hunting situations. (And smaller, capped turrets slide easier into a scabbard).  They have also been quite effective for me.
 
I am not typically a night-owl, but I am monitoring a bedding job and staying up a bit later tonight.


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-Matt


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:13
Bitterroot - When I got my black bear in Wyoming and the Russian Wild Boar in Vermont, I was using my uncle's Rem 700 7mm mag w/ a Burris scope.

Prior to that, I had never used a Burris and I was very impressed. Pretty rugged scope, too. During the black bear hunt, I was on horseback to get to where my guide needed to set me up and the scabbard had come loose. The butt end of the rifle had bounced so much on the ground that it knocked the scope loose; however, it was undamaged and I was able to quickly zero it in so we could get to my spot quickly.

I also had a chance to go for a trophy red stag while I was hunting for a wild boar but I passed on that. Instead my good friend opted to get both and I'm still very jealous to this day. He got a massive red stag that had an equally massive rack. This was 12 years ago and I'm still steaming over it.


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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:23
Bitterroot - I grew up in the Northeast (Connecticut and Maine). The deer are fairly large in Maine but have nowhere near the size racks of the deer down here in Texas.

Being from up north, I never had a chance to hunt mule deer. Everybody tells me its a lot more fun versus whitetails.

I can imaging that Montana hunting provides many opportunities to take long shots. Do you typically have established firing points where you're firing from known distances or are you pretty much on the move an have to adjust accordingly? 

I ask this b/c many hunters here in TX set up areas where they can bait the deer and, therefore, shoot from a known distance. It's funny to me b/c some of my friends' hides look like mini condos inside. Where I lived and hunted, this isn't allowed.



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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:25
Oops. I don't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry guys. Got caught up in talking about hunting.

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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:31
Poke around the forum.   Plenty of good threads in the hunting section.
 
You can start your own as well.
 
Quickly,
 
No bait in MT, no high fence hunting, spot and stalk is most common.


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-Matt


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:34
I have seen some fist sized groups (approx 4" or so?) at 1K, and have made some.
5-shot groups?  10-shot groups?  From prone or sitting positions?
In extreme conditions?
I am impressed with a person who can consistently make a heart shot on the first shot at 1K or 1K+ in extreme conditions. 
That is sub 1/2 MOA.   With a 308?  I actually call them a 3-O-Late, especially at those distances.
I don't have a military/SF background, but I have several friends who have and who still are, and I have never heard them talk like this.
I guess I am a doubting Thomas.

Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

  As far as having the ability to make as fine an adjustment that I can, especially, with respect to 700-1,000+ yd. shots, I have a strong proclivity toward minute adjustments but I can live with mil adjustments if that's what the scope dictates. 

As team leader, I always stressed to my men the importance of the fist sized group at extreme distances in extreme conditions. Remember the fist rule? The skilled scout sniper should be able to execute fist sized groups or better at extreme distances in extreme conditions, which demonstrates the ability to achieve immediate, killing shots to the heart or head while also demonstrating the ability to destroy or render ineffective key enemy equipment.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 02:47
Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Bitterroot - When I got my black bear in Wyoming and the Russian Wild Boar in Vermont, I was using my uncle's Rem 700 7mm mag w/ a Burris scope.

Prior to that, I had never used a Burris and I was very impressed. Pretty rugged scope, too. During the black bear hunt, I was on horseback to get to where my guide needed to set me up and the scabbard had come loose. The butt end of the rifle had bounced so much on the ground that it knocked the scope loose; however, it was undamaged and I was able to quickly zero it in so we could get to my spot quickly.

I also had a chance to go for a trophy red stag while I was hunting for a wild boar but I passed on that. Instead my good friend opted to get both and I'm still very jealous to this day. He got a massive red stag that had an equally massive rack. This was 12 years ago and I'm still steaming over it.


Were those Red Stag behind "high fences" on an exotics ranch or free range "Vermont" Red Stag?Wink


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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 03:32
Ernie - the point of the fist rule is to emphasize the importance of two things to Marine scout snipers; 1) solid marksmanship techniques and 2) effective employment of technology.

It doesn't mean that every scout sniper will always shoot such tight groups in those conditions, it implies that every scout sniper should be capable of doing this based on training, equipment and a highly disciplined approach toward using the two. As a result, this emphasizes another key point - if conditions exist where the scout sniper believes there exists a significant amount of risk concerning the ability to make that accurately placed shot, it is far better to avoid taking that shot and prevent a number of issues from occurring.

I can't speak to the quality of other snipers; however, I can say that Marine Scout Snipers are thoroughly trained as marksmen and conduct a ton of practice in a wide variety of conditions - the worse, the better. Very few ever get the chance of becoming a scout sniper and very few actually graduate the basic school. Following that, there's additional formal training as well as OJT in the parent unit and the individual can lose his position for failing to perform even though he passed his basic training.

As a side note, I had the chance to train w/ the British Royal Marine Snipers and they're very impressive. Similar doctrine as us.



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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 03:43
Rustic - They were on a large, private preserve. I can't remember the name of the place but I do recall passing by Dartmouth College in Hanover to get there. This was a place that my uncle was very familiar with and he recommended it to me. 

Place was loaded with serious game. Just wish I would've gone for the red stag opportunity while I was there. I guess it wouldn't matter, though, b/c my wife won't allow me to mount the head of the wild boar or even display the skull anywhere in the house. Says it looks too ugly.


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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 04:39
I see I didn't really get any answers to my questions.
With the 7.62 a 1 mph wind change is 10 inches @ 1K.  175SMK around 2600 fps.
First shot connections with no flags or spotter shots shooting better than 1/2MOA consistently in tough conditions?  5-shot groups?  10-shot groups?
With multiple wind speeds and directions, with added vertical from topography of the land, and of course some deception from mirage, and the group of snipers in your class/level could consistently shoot that good?  Not buying it.Whacko
Besides that, in the real world your target is not a piece of steel, but a person who is moving around a lot. Now that 4/5" zone is even more elusive
Your bullet is transonic at that distance, and will go sub at around 1100 yards.
Keeping a group within 2-2.5" inches of center at 1K and further?  Is it possible?  yes. 
Can a 15 year old put 4-shots at 1000 yards under 3" with a specialty handgun?  Yes!
Is it likely to be consistently repeated?  No.  Did his 5th shot make a little over 8"?  Yes.
And he was shooting from a bench, and had a sighter opportunity.
Likely and or consistently possible from field conditions in bad conditions with no sighters?  NO
And he was using a cartridge that beats the 308 hands down, even in a handgun.
With just 1/2mph consistent FV wind for the whole 1000 yards (how rare is that?) moves your bullet 5"
I intend no disrespect to those who serve, but I do doubt the level of shooting capability mentioned in this thread.

Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Ernie - the point of the fist rule is to emphasize the importance of two things to Marine scout snipers; 1) solid marksmanship techniques and 2) effective employment of technology.

It doesn't mean that every scout sniper will always shoot such tight groups in those conditions, it implies that every scout sniper should be capable of doing this based on training, equipment and a highly disciplined approach toward using the two. As a result, this emphasizes another key point - if conditions exist where the scout sniper believes there exists a significant amount of risk concerning the ability to make that accurately placed shot, it is far better to avoid taking that shot and prevent a number of issues from occurring.

I can't speak to the quality of other snipers; however, I can say that Marine Scout Snipers are thoroughly trained as marksmen and conduct a ton of practice in a wide variety of conditions - the worse, the better. Very few ever get the chance of becoming a scout sniper and very few actually graduate the basic school. Following that, there's additional formal training as well as OJT in the parent unit and the individual can lose his position for failing to perform even though he passed his basic training.

As a side note, I had the chance to train w/ the British Royal Marine Snipers and they're very impressive. Similar doctrine as us.



-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 05:49
Great comments, Ernie... as always. 
 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 08:16
  VX---being a sniper is a package deal, many skills rolled together to be used as a tool for the logistics people. learning how to shoot from sniping school only insures a uniformity of methodology nothing more . there are a lot of civilian shooters better than snipers, I see it all the time in 3 gun matches and skeet. this shows up particularly in handguns. Oh these don't count you say.  Gee I thought you were talking about all around talent

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I love little league baseball-- it keeps the kids out of the house
Yogi Bera



Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 10:04
Ernie - I can see that you're trying to make this a point-counterpoint discussion and it's not my intention to say that 8541s/0317s are better shooters than everyone else. Getting into a 'my dad is stronger than you dad' conversation is ridiculous. 

I had referenced the fist rule when I was responding to VXM because it emphasizes the focus on a relying on solid fundamental skills as well as taking advantage of enabling technologies to make the best possible shot, which was why I lean more toward the minute adjustment but would be fine w/ a mil adjustment as well.

People seem to think that we only concentrate on 1,000 yd. shots, which isn't true. Our shooting focuses on distances of up to 1,000 yds. and shooting at distances in excess of that was uncommon. We utilize various firing positions in training an on actual missions, depending on what is practical and available to use. I can personally say that I've never had a mission that required a 1,000 yd. shot. In fact, I never had a mission that required an 800 yd. shot either.

If you're wanting to point out what you believe or don't believe about our training, capabilities or other facets of our role, that's fine. It really doesn't matter to me. Like I said, I was referencing something to VXM that he would identify with as a fellow 8541.






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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: shooter07
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 10:41

The most glaring fact that i don't think anyone has directly brought to the forefront is that 95% of people reading this have not or never will enter into a combat situation where "hard data" is needed in adverse conditions where lives may potentially be on the line.

 
I think the first rule of thumb is to teach basic shooting skills that can apply to everyone, not just LE, military etc. Understand the complexities of shooting comes much later (ie ranging, trig/math skills, wind, pressure, elevation, temp etc) for just about every person out there.
 
Focusing on breathing, trigger control, technique, position, is much more important to the average shooter, which accounts for just about every swinging you know what on this board and around the US.
 
The idea that one system is fatally flawed, or ingeniously better, is irrelevant IMO. If a person knows their equipment and ammo and can consistently make shots within a practical range for their application, then it really doesn't matter which system is "better". Most snipers aren't making kill shots at 1000+ yards/meters. Those shots are very far and few between.
 
 
 
 


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Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

"Issac Newton invented gravity because some asshole hit him with an apple"
-Chris Moltisanti


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 10:45
Why does this thread just make my head hurt.
 


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 10:45
Dale - You're absolutely right about us having to be more than just marksmen, but I think VXM already knows this as he stated he's a former 8651.

It's true that being a scout sniper doesn't mean that you are a better marksman than all civilians. I had met some incredible civilian long-range marksmen when I was an 8651. And there were also Marines in the fleet who were outstanding shots but not 8651s, too. 

The toughest part of being able to do our job was the fact that we had to be outstanding gatherers of intel, excellent communicators who can effectively convey intel through a variety of methods, outstanding marksmen in excellent physical condition with incredible mental toughness and masters of camouflage and concealment (this part was a bear). I went to the Quantico school and It was the toughest school I had attended - Recon school was tough but this seemed more difficult to me. After all that, you find out that it's just your basic training and you have to go through far more advanced training including OJT once you're back w/ your parent unit.

I wouldn't compare marksmanship skill of the 8651/0317 to 3-gun match competition, skeet or pistol competition, though I understand your point. 

By the way, I really enjoy skeet, sporting clay and pistol shooting - I'm fair at skeet and sporting clays and I tend to get my butt kicked by much older, experienced guys (I'm 45 and I've noticed that the 50+ guys down here are no joke). My primary MOS was 8654 (force recon) so pistol is a different story; give me my pistol w/ combat loads and an MP5 or M4 and I'm more than happy to engage the boogeymen (that's what we called the bad guys) all day long. As long as I can put a dip in, first ...


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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 11:13
Shooter07 - I think the original post was directed at precision, long-range tactical shooting where lives are on the line. VXM will have to clarify this but I assume this to be the case since the thread is part of the tactical optics forum.

This is why I came into this thread; b/c I was looking to discuss tactical optics as well as related TTP in a real world application. I never imagined that I'd be landing in a hornet's nest when I came into this thread and read a lot of banter concerning someone's post.

I'm an old school 8541 (made a typo on my earlier post to Dale - fingers type faster than my brain housing group can process) and we used the 10x Unertl on our M40A1s. Since then, much has changed with respect to shooting platforms, optics and other related technology as well as TTP in the military and in LE. 

The guys in here seem like avid shooters with decent knowledge, which is refreshing to me. And everyone seems to have cool avatars ... except for me. You definitely get the cool avatar award along with one gentleman who has the Chuck Norris kicking the **** out of Bin Ladin avatar. The spinning Taz, VXM's shooting from an ATV in the mountains and Bitterroot's avatar also get mucho kudos, too.

I'm not sure if this forum is where I should be, though. I recently began searching for tactical long-range shooting forums but I'm not having much luck finding what I'm looking for, even in the sniper forums (more recreational shooters and enthusiasts than military and LE snipers).


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Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 12:00

FRM, one thing we pride ourselves on in the OT is our respect for and devotion to our military members... and those who are not members, just those who serve and have served.  We are not much on "horn tooting" and conflict when there is no legitimate reason for conflict.  We understand that posting to a forum such as this often implies "intent" that is not there.  It is clear that you are proud of the MOS you filled, as well you should be.  You are a member of an elite profession and all the consistently posting members respect your sacrifices for our Nation.  You have , on a number of occassions already, told us your "occupation".  We don't need a constant reminder.  When you joined the OT, you became a member of another "elite" group.  Respect them and they willl show you respect back...

Once again, welcome to the OT...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 12:07
As I said in my original reply, there were some grains of truth in the OP. However, the main mistaken assumption in it is to think that recoil or - I'll add - any way you handle the rifle has anything to do with the ballistic characteristics of a bullet. In other words, you can take an expert shooter and a poor shooter, have them fire the same rifle and the bullet will fly exactly the same. The expert will, of course, have a much better chance of making a better shot from knowing how to handle the rifle better.

In short, the OP makes some valid points yet seems to be saying that no one should use a ballistics calculator because they don't account for factors entirely outside their purpose. True, no one should rely on a ballistics calculator without backing it up with hard data. I say this as the author of a ballistics calculator. However, even without hard data what they are good for is creating a preliminary estimate of point of impact.

And, when fed both accurate inputs (onsite barometric pressure, temperature, muzzle velocity, etc) and tweaked a bit, e.g. adjusting ONE input like the BC number slightly, to agree with hard data at at least three points within the maximum shooting range, e.g. 300, 600 and 900 yards for a .308 Win, can be quite accurate.

The OP also just seemed strangely outdated when it came to discussing scopes and later on, in another post, saying that important for a shooter to know that there are 3.43 MOA per mil. Why, if I'm using an scope with a mil reticle and mil turrets would I even have to know about MOA? If I do any calculations they are going to go like this example:

  1. Target is 18" = .5 yards
  2. Target size * 1000 = 500 (You can think of this as 500 yards @ 1 mil)
  3. Number of mils subtended = .8
  4. 500 / .8 = 625 yards
With an FFP scope (of which there was no mention in the OP), the shooter can range or make adjustments in point of aim at any power. What was weird about the OP was a seeming ignorance of the recognition and acceptance among many tactical shooters that there is a significant advantage to this approach. The failure to mention it as well advocating obsolete methods makes me skeptical of such advice.

FWIW, the last time I took a difficult shot I didn't have time to fiddle with a ballistics calculator - even if I'd brought one along to drop in the snow. We were able to use a rangefinder to set up the shot but I adjusted the elevation turret based on memorization of a verified drop table (derived with the help of the calculator at various ranges). I held left 1.3 mils with the reticle to account for an estimated 2 mph movement of the target.

So yeah, don't just rely on some electronic gadget, but do use them to practice with and hone your skills. One thing I've learned from my use of tools, such as a LRF or GPS unit, or for that matter, a paper topo map, is that you use them to verify and confirm your experience. Then observe the world around you and note what your own senses tell you. Most of use, with little practice, can tell the temperature within 10 degrees or even what time it is.






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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: shooter07
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 12:10
Agreed with KB.
 
I'm a vet and rarely talk about it here or anywhere else. I think that being humble and not giving constant reminders to the masses will garner much more respect in the long run. We all have opinions but it's the delivery and how you interact with fellow people that garners the respect and admiration. You are truly in an elite field and that service should be commended.
 
From one vet to another, thank you for your service and we welcome you to the OT with open arms.


-------------
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

"Issac Newton invented gravity because some asshole hit him with an apple"
-Chris Moltisanti


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/28/2012 at 12:19
I am simply saying that the level of shooting you described is extremely rare when field shooting in bad conditions.  It is not a matter of who is better, but rather what is actually capable given the service rifle, its chambering and ammo.
The 308 was not designed for those extreme distances, and when someone makes mention of its capability in their hands in extreme conditions at extreme distance, it is like saying you continually win the lottery and only bought one ticket each time.
I am saying the 7.62 is not consistently capable of what you mentioned earlier in anyone's hands in bad conditions at those distances.
Never intended it to be who is a better shooter. 
It is the platform that is lacking for that kind of accuracy with how many shot groups again at 8-1K+?

I know the focus of your training and that the majority your mission parameters is not 1K.
4- 6 would ideal set-up (far enough away, yet close enough to ensure hits), and out to 6-8 is okay, but beginning to stretch things.  If you have to, can you shoot further? of course.
I am aware of the capabilities of the 308.
I know that the majority of time you don't even get to shoot from the prone position when in the field.  I am not doubting if you served or even what the doctrine is that was, is taught.
Several of us shoot at distance to and beyond 1K regularly from field positions and the bench.  Others compete in F-Class at 600 and 1K or BR at 6 & 1K and are aware of what kind of groups are possible with cartridges much better than the 308.
I hope you stay here at OT, and get to know the group

Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Ernie - I can see that you're trying to make this a point-counterpoint discussion and it's not my intention to say that 8541s/0317s are better shooters than everyone else. Getting into a 'my dad is stronger than you dad' conversation is ridiculous. 

I had referenced the fist rule when I was responding to VXM because it emphasizes the focus on a relying on solid fundamental skills as well as taking advantage of enabling technologies to make the best possible shot, which was why I lean more toward the minute adjustment but would be fine w/ a mil adjustment as well.

People seem to think that we only concentrate on 1,000 yd. shots, which isn't true. Our shooting focuses on distances of up to 1,000 yds. and shooting at distances in excess of that was uncommon. We utilize various firing positions in training an on actual missions, depending on what is practical and available to use. I can personally say that I've never had a mission that required a 1,000 yd. shot. In fact, I never had a mission that required an 800 yd. shot either.

If you're wanting to point out what you believe or don't believe about our training, capabilities or other facets of our role, that's fine. It really doesn't matter to me. Like I said, I was referencing something to VXM that he would identify with as a fellow 8541.






-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/29/2012 at 19:26
Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Rustic - They were on a large, private preserve. I can't remember the name of the place but I do recall passing by Dartmouth College in Hanover to get there. This was a place that my uncle was very familiar with and he recommended it to me. 

Place was loaded with serious game. Just wish I would've gone for the red stag opportunity while I was there. I guess it wouldn't matter, though, b/c my wife won't allow me to mount the head of the wild boar or even display the skull anywhere in the house. Says it looks too ugly.


You said "I also had a chance to go for a trophy red stag while I was hunting for a wild boar but I passed on that. Instead my good friend opted to get both"
You paid to hunt wild boar and red stag on private reserve only to turn down the opportunity at the red stag?  I guess, so much for the refund. huh?


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Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: January/29/2012 at 19:49
Originally posted by rustic rustic wrote:

Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Rustic - They were on a large, private preserve. I can't remember the name of the place but I do recall passing by Dartmouth College in Hanover to get there. This was a place that my uncle was very familiar with and he recommended it to me. 

Place was loaded with serious game. Just wish I would've gone for the red stag opportunity while I was there. I guess it wouldn't matter, though, b/c my wife won't allow me to mount the head of the wild boar or even display the skull anywhere in the house. Says it looks too ugly.


You said "I also had a chance to go for a trophy red stag while I was hunting for a wild boar but I passed on that. Instead my good friend opted to get both"
You paid to hunt wild boar and red stag on private reserve only to turn down the opportunity at the red stag?  I guess, so much for the refund. huh?

Rustic, where did he say he paid for it?  Couldn't opportunity mean that he had the chance to hunt for red stag IF he wanted to pay for it?


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/29/2012 at 20:32
Welcome all new people! 

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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/29/2012 at 20:39
Someone who uses emoticons allot, where is the bullsh*t flag, I gotta raise it.

Any other Recon Marines or HOGs spot the f**k-ups?

My first post still holds true: nothing, including BDC reticle, is a replacement for the range, the ammo, the gun, the shooter, and the environmental conditions. Neophytes were missing shots long before the BDC, and will be missing them still long after this - and the next - craze.

That anyone would infer that we don't comprehend simple topics like air density is offensive. Then again, anyone on the internet can be a commando.

I'm done with this thread, it is now filed in the "life is too short" bin.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/29/2012 at 23:43
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Originally posted by rustic rustic wrote:

Originally posted by FORCE RECON MARINE FORCE RECON MARINE wrote:

Rustic - They were on a large, private preserve. I can't remember the name of the place but I do recall passing by Dartmouth College in Hanover to get there. This was a place that my uncle was very familiar with and he recommended it to me. 

Place was loaded with serious game. Just wish I would've gone for the red stag opportunity while I was there. I guess it wouldn't matter, though, b/c my wife won't allow me to mount the head of the wild boar or even display the skull anywhere in the house. Says it looks too ugly.


You said "I also had a chance to go for a trophy red stag while I was hunting for a wild boar but I passed on that. Instead my good friend opted to get both"
You paid to hunt wild boar and red stag on private reserve only to turn down the opportunity at the red stag?  I guess, so much for the refund. huh?

Rustic, where did he say he paid for it?  Couldn't opportunity mean that he had the chance to hunt for red stag IF he wanted to pay for it?

That is why I asked the question.


-------------
Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: FORCE RECON MARINE
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 09:20
Rustic - I only paid for the wild boar, originally. When we got there, the guide asked if we were interested in getting a trophy wild boar. Hell, I thought the cost was the same no matter what, right? Same breed, same price I thought. I said, "Sure," and that's when I found out the cost of the hunt would be higher.

Once I got my boar, I was really happy with the size of the thing - 550 lbs, corner of eye to nose measured about 16 1/2". The owner asked my buddy and I if we were interested in hunting anything else and he mentioned that they have some nice trophy red stag on the preserve. I didn't feel like paying any more than I did b/c I recall the cost of the boar, not including taxidermy or butchering, was pretty expensive.

Anyway, my buddy was interested and later that day, he came back w/ a monster of a red stag. That's when I started feeling foolish about not getting one, and I didn't have a chance to change my mind b/c we had to leave shortly after he returned.

By the way, I asked my buddy where the place was and he said it was called Wild Hill Preserve in Fairlee, VT. It was the first time I'd ever hunted on a private preserve - very different from what I was accustomed to.


-------------
Celer Silens Mortalis
8654/8541


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 11:29
Welcome Marine!!!  I'm glad to see the thread take a more civil tone.  I think the OP started down the path that he was the pro and everyone else didnt have a clue.  Wrong conclusion here.  
 
As for the original topic  -- Hard Data VS  Balistic Chart.  A guy has to start somewhere so having a balistic chart to approximate the trajectory of a bullet is a good thing --- a useful tool to get you close --- but just like bore sighting a rifle doesnt get you perfectly sighted in, it gets you close.  You need to spend time behind the trigger to verify or disprove the chart.  And every different variable matters ammo type powder seating length of the bullet etc.  Taking notes when you go shooting is a wonderful idea.  Notes should record weather and wind conditions, and compare  your notes from multipel sessions.
Balistic reticles are valuable tools also, but they often take as much or more work than using a tactical scope.  The up side to using a balistic reticle is that low profile knobs do not become accidentally adjusted.  The down side to a balistic reticle is that with second focal plane the reticle represents different distance for the marks below center at every different power. I tend to think that a mildot based reticle is really a better known hold over reticle than most balistic reticles because one can not only determine distance to target with it but one can use it for known distance  hold over by running a balistic chart in mils and checking that in actual practice on the range. Many is the man who has bought a scope with a balistic reticle and dialed down the power below max held over on the reticle marks below center and shot way over the top to the deer they would have hit had the scope remained on the max power.  Lowering the power of the scope raises the point of impact.    Knowing this one can work  with a Zeiss Rapid Z 800 and determine what power to set the scope on to accurately strike game at long range. Once a guy understands his equipment be it a Mil Mil FFP sniper scope or a hunting scope with balistic reticle - he can use it to accurately place shots at long range.  There was an old saying -- Beware of the man who only owns one rifle - he probably knows how to use it.  An excellent example of this was the American Revolution where Americans using long barrel Kentucky / Pennsylvania  rifles were able to accurately engage British troops at distances out to 800 yds accurately.  The true hidden treasures  for hunting use are fixed power scopes with a balistic reticle like the Leupold FX3 6X42 with Long Range Duplex, and the very few existing  First Focal Plane scopes which have a balistic reticle.
The true hidden treasures for Tactical scopes are the new  First Focal Plane tactical scopes which can be used to mil dot range at any power or can be used for known hold over at any power Like the 3-9x42  Mil Quad FFP Super Sniper.  Late this spring the entire line of fixed power Super Snipers will become available with the Mil Quad reticle in 1/10 mil adjustments. Thunbs Up  Technology however is never a fix for failing to practice and know your equipment.   Stay SAFE out there guys and practice often.
Marines
 


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 12:33
Sure would have been good to have found this thread earlier. It's tough trying to absorb 4 pages of info in one day.
I hope the original poster (OP) hangs around and establishes himself; I may want to take one or more of his classes. Since I have very limited access to anything over 500yds., it would be nice to have the practical knowledge to shoot to the limits of F-class.
I'm sorry that things turned into such a misunderstanding, and I hope everything is put into perspective and everyone can get back on track of learning more about shooting.
Back soon, I hope.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 13:33
300 hundred yard group using a Nikon BDC. 100 yard zero, I aimed center mass of critter and I shot "the circles", per the Nikon manual.  
Not the Alpha and Omega of reticles, but they will suffice, in certain instances.    







SWFA staff were hitting shaving cream cans at 500 yds with the same scope. 




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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 14:11
Mark, you need to hang out in Varmint Scopes more often. A lot of folks ask about BDC's there and the shooting you've done is a good example of what can be done.
Carry on folks.


-------------
Doug


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 14:12
While I have since moved on to a SS 10x with turrets, my Burris FFLII was good enough to kill a bull elk at 300 yards using the reticle hold-overs as well. As stated by a few others, it is about knowing your equipment.
 Will a recommend a SFP ballistic reticle? No, but I bought it before I was a member here. As a matter of fact, I am about to jump way out into the deep-end, and purchase a SS 5-20 FFP scope. While I understand that equipment does not make the shooter, it does help to have dependable gear. 


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If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 14:12
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Mark, you need to hang out in Varmint Scopes more often. A lot of folks ask about BDC's there and the shooting you've done is a good example of what can be done.
Carry on folks.

and left handed no lessBuckyWinkExcellent


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 14:24
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Mark, you need to hang out in Varmint Scopes more often. A lot of folks ask about BDC's there and the shooting you've done is a good example of what can be done.
Carry on folks.

Thanks, but I think this was more about being lucky that day, than being good. Nikon's BDC reticle has gotten a bad rap, for the most part.

I think there is some real potential for using BDC reticles, but I agree they lack the precision of dialing.   


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 15:08
Understood and this is the tactical forum. But, varmint and predator hunters don't always have time to dial.

-------------
Doug


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 15:55
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:



Understood and this is the tactical forum. But, varmint and predator hunters don't always have time to dial.


Well, in fairness, in order to use a BDC to the fullest and shooting unknown distances, one would want to zap it with a rangefinder,@ so that consumes time too.

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 15:59
For the most part; out to 300, I don't need a BDC, and beyond that, I don't trust them.

-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:04
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

For the most part; out to 300, I don't need a BDC, and beyond that, I don't trust them.


Most folks feel this way. I've seen them called gimmicks, an answer to a problem that don't exist, et al.
Hence my failure in introducing the BDC to the varmint forum, Doug.   

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:07
BF pretty much summed it for most experienced shooters.

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:10
If, I am using a BDC reticle and I am doggin, I know ahead of time the subtension between the line in MOA.  Then, once the range is known, I dial off of the line.
For instance if the line I am using is 12.25 from main crosshair and my drop for distance lasered is 13.75MOA, I simply dial 1.5 MOA and use that line (12.25) as my aiming point. 
Just as accurate as using a MIL or MOA reticle once you understand how to use it.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:20
What reticle do you use regularly, Ernie?

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:39
As mentioned earlier, I don't use BDC's hardly at all.  I do think I have one though.
I use the Leupold TMR, NF NP-R1 & R2, and Holland's MOA ART Reticle.
I have more ART reticles than anything else, with two of them being FFP 6.5-20's.
Here is the ART reticle:


With it I have a quick fix for wind, if I don't want to dial, as the lines from the center out are 2 MOA and 4 MOA.  With the 4 MOA having a vertical line at the 2 MOA mark.  It is pretty easy to half the 2MOA width for a 1 MOA correction, or you can just dial your wind if you want.
For drop the MOA is internally listed every 3 MOA with another line every 1.5 MOA.
It also works great for reticle ranging as 1.5 MOA is finer than a 1/2 MIL.
I don't run into getting confused on turret revolutions errors, since the most I would ever have to dial is 1.25 MOA, when dialing off a MOA line.
It may look busy, but is not an issue for paper or steel shooting or dogging or big game.
It is a fast system once you have drop and drift determined, and you can use the MOA reticle as a "yardstick" to make corrections when needed, instead of guessing the amount MOA or trying to convert it from another system into MOA.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:47


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 16:49
Wow, Earnie, that is...something.

I thought I didn't like Christmas tree reticles, that, though having lots of good utility, probably takes some getting used to.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 17:49
It was an easy switch for me.  It seems more busy in a pic than when using it to me.
Full flexibility.  I can dial if I want for every thing.
I can use the reticle alone, and no dialing whatsoever-Very fast for hunting and Tac matches.
Or I can use the reticle with very little dialing and always be shooting off of a line for critical accuracy.
Then of course handy reticle ranging, and quick shot correction when needed.
He only put 4 MOA of wind into the reticle because very rarely are we going to need more than 4 MOA of wind when hunting.  And you can still dial for wind if you want and not use it all.
Or dial for drop and hold wind on the main horizontal line.
In a FFP any power, just very versatile.
Getting behind one and using it for awhile it what tends to seal the deal with these.
Now for those who dial, it is not appealing.
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Wow, Earnie, that is...something.

I thought I didn't like Christmas tree reticles, that, though having lots of good utility, probably takes some getting used to.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 17:49

Maybe you guys can help me use my terminology better.  Maybe if I was better informed, VXM wouldn't have got upset at my ignorance and left.  I have been referring to BDC reticles generally referring to all reticles that are calibrated in some fashion to account for long range corrections. 

Is this incorrect? 
 
Are BDCs only those that have some corresponding range-calibrated aiming points (Zeiss Rapid-Z)?  Do christmas tree/ grid reticles not qualify as BDCs?  What about reticles like Vortex's Dead Hold BDC that generally refers to range aiming points, but is calibrated in MOA?  What about Swarovski's ballistic reticles?  They are calibrated in MILs?
 
Help me out.


-------------
-Matt


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 18:55
I tend to use the word Ballistic Reticle what most call BDC.
What I mean is a reticle that is calibrated to typical trajectory curves.  They (dots/lines) will NOT be equal distances from each other, like a MOA or MIL reticle would be.

Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

Maybe you guys can help me use my terminology better.  Maybe if I was better informed, VXM wouldn't have got upset at my ignorance and left.  I have been referring to BDC reticles generally referring to all reticles that are calibrated in some fashion to account for long range corrections. 

Is this incorrect? 
 
Are BDCs only those that have some corresponding range-calibrated aiming points (Zeiss Rapid-Z)?  Do christmas tree/ grid reticles not qualify as BDCs?  What about reticles like Vortex's Dead Hold BDC that generally refers to range aiming points, but is calibrated in MOA?  What about Swarovski's ballistic reticles?  They are calibrated in MILs?
 
Help me out.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 19:38
I did these shooting off the roof of the truck just to get an idea what the change in magnification - power of the scope would do with different distances using 300 WSM  Zeiss Rapid Z800 4.5-14x44


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 21:08
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

I did these shooting off the roof of the truck just to get an idea what the change in magnification - power of the scope would do with different distances using 300 WSM  Zeiss Rapid Z800 4.5-14x44


The 300yd shots I can not hardly see are they covered with white squares??


-------------
Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 21:30
Originally posted by Ernie Bishop Ernie Bishop wrote:

I tend to use the word Ballistic Reticle what most call BDC.
What I mean is a reticle that is calibrated to typical trajectory curves.  They (dots/lines) will NOT be equal distances from each other, like a MOA or MIL reticle would be.
 
Ernie,
 
OK.
 
I guess I was too broad in my definition.  I just thought they were any reticle that you could compensate for the elevation (drop) of your ammo.  I guess I will quit referring to my Swaro BRH as a BDC type reticle.
 
Thanks.


-------------
-Matt


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 21:33
Yes I used target pasters  and I did make some windage corrections this was intended to be just rough info to know where to start working the next time regarding what power to be on at what distance.   Only the last two holes from 600 yds on 10x show.   what you can see is if you want point of impact to come up some then reduce the power of the scope.

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: rustic
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 21:37
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Yes I used target pasters  and I did make some windage corrections this was intended to be just rough info to know where to start working the next time regarding what power to be on at what distance.   Only the last two holes from 600 yds on 10x show.


Did you start with low or high Mag??


-------------
Light is alright.<br /><br />The end is just... the beginning   -soul surfer


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 21:41
This is one of the ways you can you a multi-dash/dot reticle in SFP if you know how to take advantage of it.  Good for you!
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

what you can see is if you want point of impact to come up some then reduce the power of the scope.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: January/30/2012 at 22:17
Originally posted by Ernie Bishop Ernie Bishop wrote:

This is one of the ways you can you a multi-dash/dot reticle in SFP if you know how to take advantage of it.  Good for you!
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

what you can see is if you want point of impact to come up some then reduce the power of the scope.


Some scopes such as Nightforce do this for you. NF on their NPR1 and NPR2 reticles they provide the distance between the marks at max magnification, mid point magnification and min magnification in the owners manual. On a NXS 5.5-22 with the NPR1 it is 1MOA between the marks at 22x, 2MOA at 11x and 4MOA at 5.5x. And with the NPR2 the values are 2MOA, 4MOA and 8MOA.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: January/31/2012 at 02:10
Originally posted by Ernie Bishop Ernie Bishop wrote:

 
 
Ernie, this reticle is a bit crazy. First you have a real tree in it, instead of a Xmas tree. And then those lines running at an angle across and then those upright posts running to the edge has me confused.
Do you use those for incoming aircraft or what?
 
 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/31/2012 at 07:55
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Originally posted by Ernie Bishop Ernie Bishop wrote:

 
 
Ernie, this reticle is a bit crazy. First you have a real tree in it, instead of a Xmas tree. And then those lines running at an angle across and then those upright posts running to the edge has me confused.
Do you use those for incoming aircraft or what?
 
 

one thing you gotta understand is that dem boys in wyoming dont mess around. ernie shows up to play ball Big Grin


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/31/2012 at 08:45
any reticle can be used as a bdc, even a duplex, there are 2 differences between bdc -- how many hash marks they have, and 2) if the distance between the hash is linear or log.  a duplex only as 1 hash mark. VX's horrific lack of experience smells trollish. Ernies's method of hold over is technically more accurate as the greater the holdover the more error can show up in the more clicks you dial in. His method uses a min. number of clicks and thus works the scope less. His method is discribed in any NF owners manual and recommeded by them, and you'd think they would know a thing or three. I use extensively on their P2 and p1 reticles, but the method becomes more difficult with scopes such as the z6 tds because of their crappy turrets.
All of the sfp on line computer programs will have you optimize the settings by reducing the power to raise the poi. And again for the 200 time the best way to calibrate them is get a standard grid target look at it at 100 yds, identify where the hashes have their drops at the various powers, take notes and the most important part -- go shoot.


-------------
I love little league baseball-- it keeps the kids out of the house
Yogi Bera




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