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scope for hk 91

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Tactical Scopes
Forum Description: Police and military tools of the trade
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3049
Printed Date: October/22/2017 at 07:12


Topic: scope for hk 91
Posted By: pokerjohn
Subject: scope for hk 91
Date Posted: January/30/2006 at 19:17
hello im looking for scope for hk91 .308  wanted to get opinions on the leupold mrk4 6.5 x 20 illum mildot. mostlty for target shooting in the 200 to 500 yard range. i bought an ATN  6x18 x 60. very heavy and i was not impressed at all so i sent it back. im willing to shell out the bucks for a good one. but honestly i dont know much a bout scopes. all opinions and suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks, john



Replies:
Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/30/2006 at 21:54
Regardless of the scope mount, CETME's are hard to scope, B-square or original HK sets the scope to high for good cheek weld. Even using an adjustable check type stock will not solve the problem, and the triggers are somewhere between unbelievable and bad. The rifle itself is only capable of 3MOA accuracy therefore high magnification is a waste of time. Personally I think the best scope for this gun, keeping with the theme of its type and what it's about is SWFA SS 10x. This scope will meet any need the gun is capable of and it's durability will take the slamming of the roller block action of CETMEs. (This is from personal usage with 3 different Cetme variants including HK).


Posted By: pokerjohn
Date Posted: January/30/2006 at 22:19
thanks dale for the info, the rifle is an orginal hk-91 semi auto. i have the hk claw mount actually i have a few hk claw mounts, one is stanag mount the others have the rings as part of the mount.i'm thinking now maybe i should be looking for a different rifle thats more accurate instead of spending a bunch on a new scope. any suggestions on rifle for a good quality entry level sniping type bolt action, thanks, john


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/31/2006 at 09:26
All scope mounts for Cetme where after thoughts- your making a good decision. If you want a high quality semi- that is very accurate 1 MOA or less, Armalite or DSA makes the best, (M1a have the same scope mounting problem as cetmes). In bolts, suberb accuracy and functionality are available in any Savage heavy barrel or varmit series Remington without spending a wad of dough on the word tactical.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/09/2006 at 11:08

The two H&K 91 s that I had were ok but not sniper quality groups. H&K does make a P3 version that is now in 10K+ range if you can find one HO HO HO - that is a true sniper rifle. While I love the Leupold Mark 4 scopes I think if I was going to put one on a high capacity semi auto .308 I would want the fixed 10 x with M3 dial that has a cam system to target  various distances quickly. But this is a battle scope and would drive a target shooter nuts.  1 MOA per click elevation and 1/2 MOA per click windage, but it gets to 1000 yds in one turn of the dial.I put the Leu 10x M3 on an M1a and couldn't hit s with it because no tall enough cheek piece. ( McMillan makes a stock that will work for me but thats another grand)  So I suggest you put a $300 to $400  10X Super Sniper on it and enjoy playing with it or put an EOTech  AA battery model on it if you can hunt down a base that will go to weaver rail. The Trijicon AACOG scopes are also a realistic posibility.  Or keep open sights on your assault rifle and put a Mark 4 variable (4.5-14) on a  $3500 bolt action gun that will shoot 1/2 MOA or better groups some 1/4 MOA. The Savage acutrigger sniper rifles are about   1 MOA guns, some a little tighter like 1/2 MOA. not bad for the $600. range.

http://www.gaprecision.net/ - http://www.gaprecision.net/

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/ - http://www.tacticaloperations.com/



-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: ChrisGarrett
Date Posted: February/26/2006 at 17:33

Hello,  I have owned an HK 91 with 30mm German claw mount for over a decade and I have to agree with the others about accuracy not being that great.  With nice reloads, I call it a 2"-4" gun depending on how I shoot on any given day.  This being said, I've had a Springfield Armory 4-14x56 Gen.1 on it and it's good enough for government work.  I've even toyed with the idea of getting one of the German Hensoldt Fero Z24s for it, as I don't shoot often past 100yds and the SA seems to be overkill.  It does however, look Darth Vaderesque, IMO.

 

Anyhow, mount what makes you happy, but you might save the pricier stuff for a more accurate rifle, if you're asking me?

 

Take care and good luck, Chris



Posted By: Landpimp
Date Posted: February/27/2006 at 18:07
I have a HK91 with the Hensolt Z24, just got it a few weeks ago. I(and I am far from a marksman) can get 2-3" groups with it using SA surplus, they are a nice scope, can find them for $300-400 with the claw mount. I have a PSG-1 trigger group coming, I am sure this will really help, would not be suprised if I can get down to almost 1". ALso added a Cherokee cheekpiece to the A2 stock, makes for a real nice set up, also have the heavy buffer and rubber buttpad, all in all its a real nice......but heavy set up......not something I would want to hump all over the place

But I am looking for a higher power scope for the 91, I will be swaping the Z24 to my HK93 I think or to my PTR91-K(the trunk gun). So I am leaning towards the SS10x......but also have no issue spending $700-800 on a nice variable power scope.....but not sure which.......there are so many good choices


-------------
Heckler Koch and Land Cruiser nut


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: February/27/2006 at 18:09

Landpimp, welcome to The OT!!!

Nice handle........ 



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Landpimp
Date Posted: February/28/2006 at 14:17

thanks :)

 

Landpimp is my handle(on all forums) as well as my profession :D

 

I just ordered a SS10x for the 91.......will see how I like that.......allthough a german gun really should have german optics on it.....;)

 

 

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Landpimp, welcome to The OT!!!

Nice handle........ 



-------------
Heckler Koch and Land Cruiser nut


Posted By: rshawtx
Date Posted: March/09/2006 at 11:19
It just so happens that I am in the market for a Hensolt Z24.  I found a few but they are all the way up in Germany.  This is what I have found out about them.  I understand though that there are 3 models of the Hensolt Z24.  The Model 1 has three adjustment knobs (i.e. windage, elevation and diopter adjustment) but no attachment for the illuminator.  Dale is correct in saying that CETME scopes came as an afterthough.  An evidence to that is the illuminator option came around only during the 2nd incarnation of the Hensolt Z24: enter the Model 2.  Same 3 adjustment knobs with an illuminator option.  Then there came Model 3.  I *believe* that it only comes with 2 knobs (i.e. elevation and windage... I am not 100% sure the diopter adjustment knob was eliminated) and I am not entirely clear on the difference between Model 2 and 3 outside of this.  I do know that Model 3 has the same attachment option for the illuminator.  Externally, Models 1 and 2 are a straight tube whereas Model 3 has flutting on the objective end as well as (I know I am going to get flack for this but the term escapes me at the moment) the "rear" end (i.e. the side you peep through.)  I think in some circles that is indeed the technically acceptable term.   Ok all this being said, I would appreciate any information as to the differences between the Model 2 and Model 3.  If I am correct about there only being 2 knobs on Model 3, what is the function of a diopter adjustment and why was it presumably eliminated?  Landpimp, being the HK nut that you are and a fellow purist (i.e. a German scope on a German rifle), I would be interested in your input especially.  I believe that all 3 models are fixed 4X with a 30 mm tube.  Also, anyone care to enlighten me on what in Hades is a diopter adjustment?  Thanks all.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: March/09/2006 at 13:26
Diopter is a term for magnification, 1 diopter being 1 etc. More accurately a term for correction of magnification I guess. If your are near-sighted you will need a + diopter (screw in) and far-sighted a - diopter. This adjustment brings the focus of a bad eye into focus with the reticle on a scope or if you use reading glasses, into focus of what ever you want (arms length say) in contact lenses diopter is the off center curvatature of the lenses to allow that eye to see normal.


Posted By: rshawtx
Date Posted: March/09/2006 at 14:04

Thanks for the prompt response Dale.

 

So if I understand correctly, "diopter" and "magnification" are synonymous terms... correct?  If that is indeed the case, am I correct to assume that the Hensoldt Z24 models 1 and 2 are adjustable power scopes?

 

I looked up the explaination on wikipedia.com before posting the question here and the explaination was similar to what you wrote, also in the context of eye correction (i.e. for optometrical applications.)  I therefore couldn't make the transition of the explaination to the shooting arts... and I am afraid that is still kind of like the case.  If the diopter is the reciprocal focal length (measured in meters) for a curved lens or mirror, how would a diopter adjustment knob work on a scope?  Obviously the curvature of the lens can't change.  Since optical power is additive (e.g. a 2 diopter lens and a .5 diopter lens would give the same focal length as a single 2.5 diopter lens), the distance between these 2 lenses would not change the diopter now would it? 

 

I hope I am not making the issue overly complexed.  I am just thoroughly confused.



-------------
Gimme some of your tots!!!


Posted By: ChrisGarrett
Date Posted: March/09/2006 at 14:24

The diopter is basically the eyepiece focus that you find on many scopes, to distill it down to basics.  The Europeans call it Diopter, Americans call it an Ocular focusing eyepiece.  The Mark 1 doesn't have it, the other two do.  Personally, I'd buy those ex-military units with all the accessories from those two German guys on Ebay..  Some willl package them with the IR module for a bit more.  Some are a bit more beat up from others, but even between the $300-$400 range plus another $35-$50 to ship/insure it, it's still cheaper than you see at most dealers here in the States, who want $500-$600 for just the basic scope and Stanag claw mount.  Trust me, I've been tracking them for a good year, but honestly I have the SA and it's fine for now.

 

Good luck, Chris

 

 



Posted By: rshawtx
Date Posted: March/09/2006 at 15:20

Thanks for the input Chris.  This forum rocks!!! 

 

If there are any other purists out that wondering (i.e. searching for a Hensolt) I would like to post those 2 ebay merchants on here as well as another supplier in  Germany.  I have their info and can point others in the right direction but have had second thoughts on posting them here for concerns of conflicting interests as SWFA also sells scopes.  Can an admin-type person advise on this matter?  Since SWFA doesn't sell any of these scopes, I don't see that a problem could arise, but I could be wrong.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen!!! (With kind regards)



-------------
Gimme some of your tots!!!


Posted By: ChrisGarrett
Date Posted: March/09/2006 at 15:48

Well, pull up a chair, as there's a story behind this.....

 

I was a year out of college living at home, working for my parents' lawyer and deciding what to do.  I grew up with pellet guns left and right, as we had a creek in the backyard and all my sisters and brothers would shoot at a pretty good clip, but no guns.  Dad has them, but we never shot them.  Anyhow, I see that TIME magazine back in the summer of '85 did a piece on Assault Weapons and called the HK-91 the Rolls-Royce of the bunch, so I wanted one.  At the time in Los Angeles, they were something like $660 out the door at places like B&B (who armed the cops in the Hollywood bank shootout, BTW).

 

Anyhow, I've finally got the cash saved and it's a Friday and I'm heading off to the gun shop to buy my new H&K-91 308 Rolls-Royce kick-ass stick and I'm in line at the bank and my mom walks in and we start chit chatting.  Now, my dad owns lots of guns as I said and pellet guns were common place, so I didn't think much about asking about it first, which was my mistake.  Well, as we're talking, I'm mentioning that I'll be running out to get my new battle rifle and ol' ma' starts blowing a gasket right then and there inside the bank's lobby.  Well...we grew up with cool parents and this one wasn't budging so my dreams of the rifle were nipped in the bud right there.  I ended up putting a ncie stereo together with the money and they probably would have preferred the rifle, but such is life?

 

Cut to 1992 in Miami and I decide after buying a ChiCom AK as my first rifle, that I'd seek out the 91 and found a minty used one in Ft. Lauderdale and bought it for like 1100 or so, so dear ol' ma' cost me 500 bucks roughly, however, I still love the old gal, regardless.

 

I then wanted to mount a scope and sought out the 30mm German mount, which needed a 30mm scope.  This is maybe mid-'95 now and the Springfiedld Armory Governement Gen 1 model was talked highly about, so I got one of them.  At the time, I wasn't on the internet and you didn't see all of these Hensoldt 4x21s flooding the market from the German dealers, who are no dobut getting them from the military stockpiles as they are taken out of service.  My Gen1 has been fine, but some of these latter models, where they added all of the bells and whistles, seem to be a bit more prone to failure, but I've met a bunch of people recently who are running the earlier models and no problems there. 

 

Ultimately, I'm a purist and that's why I spend more for the original guns, FN and HK and Colt.  You're not going to lose too much if you have to dump the piece, unlike these parts guns that can be hit or miss.  Go with the Orignial....I say.  I have the German claw mount, w/1" inserts, the sight adjusting tool, the carry handle, both foreends, both stocks, cleaning kit, sling, yadda yadda.  An HK 91 looks cool with those Hensoldt scopes, but realize that they are probably a bit long in the tooth and unless you're there holding it and fiddling with it, it's a crapshoot.  You're not going to run down to the corner strip mall and have it serviced.

 

Take care, Chris



Posted By: Landpimp
Date Posted: March/10/2006 at 21:01
Great info, yeah thats pretty much my take on the Hensoldt's, I am no expert for sure, just learning. I have the 2nd model on my 93 now

Like you I am not sure if the 3rd version has the focus adjustment(see I am horible at terms, unless its LC's;)  I am planing on getting one though, so will find out, but I suspect it has some adjustment someplace/somehow

they also came in 308, 223 and 9mm versions, the "cam" was different for each. 223 and 9mm are less common for sure

the  $40 illuminators you see on Ebay are actually very nice, I hear better than the originals, I know I sure like mine.

I fitted Buttler Creek caps to the Hensoldt, like em much better

pics of the 93 with Hensoldt, 91 with SS10x(and PSG-1 trigger, heavy buffer, extended buttpad, ect) and PTR91-K




Originally posted by rshawtx rshawtx wrote:

It just so happens that I am in the market for a Hensolt Z24.  I found a few but they are all the way up in Germany.  This is what I have found out about them.  I understand though that there are 3 models of the Hensolt Z24.  The Model 1 has three adjustment knobs (i.e. windage, elevation and diopter adjustment) but no attachment for the illuminator.  Dale is correct in saying that CETME scopes came as an afterthough.  An evidence to that is the illuminator option came around only during the 2nd incarnation of the Hensolt Z24: enter the Model 2.  Same 3 adjustment knobs with an illuminator option.  Then there came Model 3.  I *believe* that it only comes with 2 knobs (i.e. elevation and windage... I am not 100% sure the diopter adjustment knob was eliminated) and I am not entirely clear on the difference between Model 2 and 3 outside of this.  I do know that Model 3 has the same attachment option for the illuminator.  Externally, Models 1 and 2 are a straight tube whereas Model 3 has flutting on the objective end as well as (I know I am going to get flack for this but the term escapes me at the moment) the "rear" end (i.e. the side you peep through.)  I think in some circles that is indeed the technically acceptable term.   Ok all this being said, I would appreciate any information as to the differences between the Model 2 and Model 3.  If I am correct about there only being 2 knobs on Model 3, what is the function of a diopter adjustment and why was it presumably eliminated?  Landpimp, being the HK nut that you are and a fellow purist (i.e. a German scope on a German rifle), I would be interested in your input especially.  I believe that all 3 models are fixed 4X with a 30 mm tube.  Also, anyone care to enlighten me on what in Hades is a diopter adjustment?  Thanks all.


-------------
Heckler Koch and Land Cruiser nut


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: March/11/2006 at 12:54
How  about an IOR  Tactical fixed 6X42

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: rshawtx
Date Posted: March/12/2006 at 15:54
Landpimp, those are some very pretty ladies.  When you get that Model 3, do let me know what you think.  If you would like to PM me, I could get you that contact information for that shop in Germany (i.e. aside from armeebus in Germany or wellcar in Georgia... both of which are merchants on ebay.)  Also, let me know where you found those $40 illuminators if you please.  I couldn't for the life of me find them.  I've tried "Hensoldt illuminators" but that didn't turn up anything.  I found one a while back but that went for 150 bones.  BTW, how does the PTR91-K measure up to the HK?

Thanks for the alternative Uri (Urimaginaryfrnd)!  I checked them out and for the price, those IOR tacticals are a very viable option.  Would you happen to know what batteries those illuminators take?  I like that the glass is made by Schott Glasswerk, Germany.  The reticles look functional.  I like that they are 35mm tubes (which take in more light).

By the nature of the beast in question (i.e. the HK91 and variants) the weapon is not meant as a 100% sniper weapon for precision shooting.  It's a battle rifle meant for medium-range engagement and supressive fire... the addition of a scope is meant to improve the lethality and accuracy of that fire... not to the degree of a tac driver but to the degree of ahelluvalotoffun... yet another technical term.


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Gimme some of your tots!!!


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: March/12/2006 at 16:01

Originally posted by rshawtx rshawtx wrote:

I like that the glass is made by Schott Glasswerk, Germany.  The reticles look functional.  I like that they are 35mm tubes (which take in more light).

 

Negative.......30 or 35mm tubes don't let in more light, friend.

35mm tubes are ONLY for more W/E adjustment. Period.

 

While the glass of IOR may be good, the mechanics inside the scope and the lack of decent eye relief (at least mine) are somewhat lacking.

I had a 2.5-10 Tacticle model on a .300 Win mag I couldn't keep off my eye at 10x.

 

Fixed power Tactical IOR's w/ the MP8 reticle are OK. 



-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: sf1nd97
Date Posted: March/12/2006 at 16:13

Contact this guy:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/G3-FERO-Z24-HENSOLDT-RIFLE-SCOPE-W-MOUNT-NEW_W0QQitemZ6610635038QQcategoryZ36077QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.com/G3-FERO-Z24-HENSOLDT-RIFLE-SCOPE-W-MOUNT -NEW_W0QQitemZ6610635038QQcategoryZ36077QQssPageNameZWDVWQQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

This is a good deal

 

Originally posted by rshawtx rshawtx wrote:

It just so happens that I am in the market for a Hensolt Z24.  I found a few but they are all the way up in Germany.  This is what I have found out about them.  I understand though that there are 3 models of the Hensolt Z24.  The Model 1 has three adjustment knobs (i.e. windage, elevation and diopter adjustment) but no attachment for the illuminator.  Dale is correct in saying that CETME scopes came as an afterthough.  An evidence to that is the illuminator option came around only during the 2nd incarnation of the Hensolt Z24: enter the Model 2.  Same 3 adjustment knobs with an illuminator option.  Then there came Model 3.  I *believe* that it only comes with 2 knobs (i.e. elevation and windage... I am not 100% sure the diopter adjustment knob was eliminated) and I am not entirely clear on the difference between Model 2 and 3 outside of this.  I do know that Model 3 has the same attachment option for the illuminator.  Externally, Models 1 and 2 are a straight tube whereas Model 3 has flutting on the objective end as well as (I know I am going to get flack for this but the term escapes me at the moment) the "rear" end (i.e. the side you peep through.)  I think in some circles that is indeed the technically acceptable term.   Ok all this being said, I would appreciate any information as to the differences between the Model 2 and Model 3.  If I am correct about there only being 2 knobs on Model 3, what is the function of a diopter adjustment and why was it presumably eliminated?  Landpimp, being the HK nut that you are and a fellow purist (i.e. a German scope on a German rifle), I would be interested in your input especially.  I believe that all 3 models are fixed 4X with a 30 mm tube.  Also, anyone care to enlighten me on what in Hades is a diopter adjustment?  Thanks all.



Posted By: rshawtx
Date Posted: March/12/2006 at 22:37

Cheaptrick, there is only one word I can say: "Ouch".  I cringe at the thought of a .300 Win mag sending enough recoil energy down onto the rifle and into my eye.  These are things one hears and reads about and hopes to never encounter.

I am glad to learn more and more each day.  I think I read the info a while back about the merits of a 30mm over the 1-inch tube and that one of them was more light in the tube by virtue of the larger surface area of the lens.  Maybe I misunderstood it or forgot the particulars since it has been a while back.  I wasn't aware that it was for W/E adjustments.  I guess that does also give the advantage of a better or more robust W/E adjustment mechanism.  I guess I stand corrected.

After much weighing of conscience, I have decided to post the importer information here.  Here is the translated page:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=%20http://www.i-e-a.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Di-e-a.de%26hl%3D%20en%26hs%3DEOJ%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozil%20la:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DG - http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u= %20http://www.i-e-a.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Di-e-a.de%26hl %3D%20en%26hs%3DEOJ%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg .mozil%20la:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DG


(Original German: http://www.i-e-a.de/ - http://www.i-e-a.de/ )

sf1, thanks for the heads up on that merchant as well.  I have him as one of my favorites.  I hope that you and others who are in search of Hesoldts find the link I posted to yall's liking.  Oh, and welcome to OT. :)



-------------
Gimme some of your tots!!!


Posted By: Landpimp
Date Posted: March/14/2006 at 09:39
I PM'd you with the contact info for the illuminators.  I know of the german sight.....stuff to droll over for sure :)

the PTR is just fine, but to be honest I have not shot it much, I bought it then very soon after found the 91 and 93....so I have been mostly shooting those.

Originally posted by rshawtx rshawtx wrote:

Landpimp, those are some very pretty ladies.  When you get that Model 3, do let me know what you think.  If you would like to PM me, I could get you that contact information for that shop in Germany (i.e. aside from armeebus in Germany or wellcar in Georgia... both of which are merchants on ebay.)  Also, let me know where you found those $40 illuminators if you please.  I couldn't for the life of me find them.  I've tried "Hensoldt illuminators" but that didn't turn up anything.  I found one a while back but that went for 150 bones.  BTW, how does the PTR91-K measure up to the HK?

Thanks for the alternative Uri (Urimaginaryfrnd)!  I checked them out and for the price, those IOR tacticals are a very viable option.  Would you happen to know what batteries those illuminators take?  I like that the glass is made by Schott Glasswerk, Germany.  The reticles look functional.  I like that they are 35mm tubes (which take in more light).

By the nature of the beast in question (i.e. the HK91 and variants) the weapon is not meant as a 100% sniper weapon for precision shooting.  It's a battle rifle meant for medium-range engagement and supressive fire... the addition of a scope is meant to improve the lethality and accuracy of that fire... not to the degree of a tac driver but to the degree of ahelluvalotoffun... yet another technical term.


-------------
Heckler Koch and Land Cruiser nut



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