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New to long range shooting.

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Target
Forum Description: Paper punchin' scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=27693
Printed Date: October/23/2017 at 23:05


Topic: New to long range shooting.
Posted By: Reegan
Subject: New to long range shooting.
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 12:20
Hi, I am wanting to get into the sport of long range shooting. Im new to the sport, so new that I havent picked out a rifle yet. I want to get started on a budget, I dont need/want to spend thousands of dollars as a beginner. For now my gear will be focused on paper shooting. I have been shooting 4x and 6x scopes on AR's for about 6 years, but this will be my first long range setup. Im looking at the swfa ss10x42 and leupold rings and base to start off with. If I start to range that scope maybe get the 16x after some time. At 300 bucks a pop they seem to be getting great reviews. The rifle I am looking at is a remington 700 loading a 7mm mag cartridge with wood stock. Will probably be shooting 130 grains, the stock needs to be free floated and will probably reduce the 3lb trigger pull to 2lbs. With this setup I can stay under 1000 dollars easily. Looking for any input from experienced long range shooters about anything. Gear, rifle, cartridge choice, scope, modifications, and any low cost upgrades or accessories. Thank you.



Replies:
Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 12:30
I wouldn't get a  7 mag to learn on or to use for just paper.  A 308 will be easier to load, shoot, and will last longer. I used a 16X SS for a while and loved it for a strictly benchrest standpoint.  Look at a Savage rifle, 16X SS and use TPS rings and bases.  All that could be had and set up for around a grand.  That and the rifle will have the accutrigger, accustock, and no gunsmithing needed


Posted By: Reegan
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 12:57

Thank you for the input. With the 16x would you still be zeroing at 100 yards? I eventually want to be shooting far enough to get use out of a 16x, but I question the power being too high at 100 yards. And that is kind of where I would like to start.



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 13:28
Personally I would get the 10xSS.  I dare bet most of your shooting will be 600 and under so the 10x makes more sense.  At least to me.

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 13:31
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Personally I would get the 10xSS.  I dare bet most of your shooting will be 600 and under so the 10x makes more sense.  At least to me.
 
i agree at the most a 3x9 SS. That will keep you good for the first 4 yrs of trying to get the "shot" down past 700 yards.  Oh a .308 is what is probably best to learn on
 
 


Posted By: Reegan
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 13:42
Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated. Very new to higher powered scopes. The variable scope would be nice, but it is really just out of my budget. For now, shooting paper, a fixed will probably work. I am used to fixed optics also.. I have used a 4x on semi-autos... This will be the first scope that i will be using MOA clicks though. Also, I like to use a reloader, will reloaded cartridges have any affect 100 yards and out? Sorry for any stupid questions.


Posted By: Reegan
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 16:08

I have another question. What is a reasonable goal for my groups starting out? I am used to shooting at human size targets at 100 yards and closer. Now I am looking to start at 100 yards using a 14 inch target. I will probably shoot 5 shot groups and wondering what a decent MOA would be? Im assuming a 5 moa would be a decent group? Like I said, im not an expert, this is all assumption. If I should be looking for a tighter group please let me know. thank you



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 16:14
Most people who shoot precision rifles want at least a 1 MOA group.  But achieving that consistently takes a pretty good rifle and pretty good handloads and a great shooter.

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Reegan
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 17:46
I am probably behind the class. I hit 1 moa at 50 yards with my ar-15 and a 4x tactical scope and feel pretty good about it. Thats standing though, no bench. Just reading up on long range grouping and there are guys with the same ar-15 that I have shooting 1 moa groups of 5 at 200 yards, and thats with his iron sights. I dont think I could do that with my scope on.


Posted By: neilbilly
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 22:22

Don't worry too much over what others can do. 

Good suggestions with the Savage set up and a SS "I'd go 10X, just my .02"


You could also do this.


http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1 - http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1


Mel will knock off the price of the Bushnell and put a SS on it if you buy one here and send it to him. Nothing wrong with Howa rifles, I have a .223 that is scary accurate. 


Again, do not worry too much about what others can do. Get decent gear, learn to really use it well, and just enjoy shooting it. 



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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.


Posted By: KY Hick
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 22:33
I really like my Savage rifles. There target and tacticle rifles have nice adjustable triggers that can go lower than there regular rifles. The SS scopes are nice too.
 
When I went to purchase my rifle I was going for a Rem700 but left with a Savage, and a few more dollars in my pocket. I have bought more of them since.
 
Have heard alot of good hings about Howa too.


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 22:36
Reegan,
The 4.5-14 Mueller APT (30mm tube) is a nice little scope for under $200.
I have 4 of them, and they are my economy LR scope.
I can't afford to put expensive glass on all of my rigs.
Developing good form is also an important part of lr shooting.
Do you have a range near by where you could ask around and find someone who could help mentor you?
Do you know anyone who reloads and shoots in a bench-rest comps?
The Savage bolt action rifles tend to pretty accurate for the price.
Get one with the accu-trigger.
Based on your questions, there is so much to say.
As was mentioned, don't worry about what anyone else can or cannot do.
Just start where you are at and have fun learning.
my home # 307-257-7431.
Give me a call this week during the day. 
I can talk much faster than I can type.
Ernie


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Griffin99
Date Posted: February/15/2011 at 23:43
+1 SVT_Tactical.  Savage .308 and a 10x SS.

And Neilbilly is right, don't worry about what others can do.  You will really enjoy it once you start!


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Far Beyond Driven


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: February/16/2011 at 01:29
For long range shooting you will need equipment that can do 1 MOA. That is 6 inches out to 600 yds. Your own capabilities will improve with practise.
 
Any of todays off the shelf varmint rifles are a good place to start, whether you choose Remington, Savage or Howa etc. I would try for a laminated or synthetic stock, rather then wood.
 
To get the best out of the equipment you will sooner or later have to go into reloading your own ammo.
 
If you want to do long range I would go for a 14X or 16X scope, but I am a bit biased on magnification. Yes you can shoot at 100 yds with a 16X.
 
Good luck on your choices.


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: February/16/2011 at 18:01
All very good info,I'm with the rest SS10X & do start with the .308!

-------------
Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: February/16/2011 at 22:49
Have you seen this article?

http://www.opticstalk.com/long-range-101-amendments_topic23969.html

It is great info for those starting to learn long range.

Also I would be looking at a heavy barrel or a bull barrel in 308. Not a thin hunting barrel.


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: February/17/2011 at 09:02
IMO the 308 Win is far from the holy grail when it comes to a 1K cartridge.
In fact, I wouldn't even use a 30 cal.
Why have more recoil with heavier bullets when you can shoot distance with lighter weight bullets.

Finding a fast twist 6mm, 6.5,  or 7mm will give you less recoil, drop, and drift than the 308.
Also, I would prefer a 14x to 15X as a minimum max power for paper shooting at 1K and I would prefer more for sure. 
Most of my scopes run from 4-6 power on the low end to 20-32 power on the upper end.

Look at what are some of the more common 1K cartridges and some that may not be popular, but will get you there too:
6BR, 6mm Dasher, 6mm-6.5x47 Lapua, 243 Win, 243AI, 6mm-284 (look for a 1-8 twist barrel)
6.5x 47 Lapua (and the improved version), 260 Rem and AI version, 6.5-284.
7mm-08, 284 Win.
Some of these cartridges are not offered in the rifles you will be considering, but they will get you to 1k, with many of them having a lot less recoil and better ballistics than the 308 Win.

I would start with the 16X if you go with a fixed model.
16x is not too much magnification at 100, and you will soon be shooting further than that.
It is not like you are shooting an animal that is moving. 
You have a fixed target from a fixed shooting spot.

Personally, I would not recommend the 7 Rem Mag, as it would likely be in a sporter configuration.
No reason to have that much recoil. 

If it had a muzzle brake it would be fine.
Concerning brakes, if you will be shooting prone with your rifle and you intend to get a brake, get one that has a solid bottom.  There are a number of good brakes out there.





-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: February/17/2011 at 12:32
Yes I would agree that the 308 is as you say far from the holy grail and the cartridges you list are better. But they are also much more expensive than the 308 and so you are going to get much less trigger time for you dollar. And trigger time is very important. 


Posted By: Ernie Bishop
Date Posted: February/17/2011 at 14:40
Barrel life is shorter with the 243 and 260 Rem, but it is easier to learn with cartridges that have less drift and drop than the 308.

In other words it is easier to have success with a beginner shooter shooting 1K with the cartridges like I listed in terms of less drift and less recoil.

Barrel life with most of the ones I mention are shorter than the 308.
The 308 is cheaper to shoot.
But cost is not just found in barrel life.

Match bullets in the 95 grain range are less expensive than a 168 30 cal VLD.
Say $22.50 for the 95 gr SMK or $24 for the 107 SMK , versus 27.50 for the 168 SMK or $28.50 for the 175.
Cost adds up in more than just barrel life. 
Just shooting from the prone position I have seen guys get to flinching with a 308.
Some people are more recoil sensitive than others.

Most guys who are getting into this want to be fiscally conservative, but they also want to be able to be successful.
Will the 308 shoot to 1k and beyond?  Yes!

But when you are talking those distances, it is more of a cartridge for experienced shooters who are more skilled in reading conditions IMO.

Some chambering that are pretty easy on barrels and have low recoil would be the 6BR, 6mm Dasher, and the 6.5x47 Lapua.


-------------
Ernie



"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."


Posted By: biggreen747
Date Posted: February/20/2011 at 19:41
Don't overlook the the 243WIN or7mm-08 (Mr Bishop has them on his list as well) as they are both readily available in rifles and ammo.  Both are easy shooting cartridge's with good ballistics. The 7-08 is highly overlooked cartridge that is finally gaining some respect, especially as a hunting round. Because the .243WIN is also used for smaller critters such as coyotes there is a huge selection of heavy barreled varmint rigs that would work great for your intended purpose.


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We measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw.


Posted By: NC_Army_Guy
Date Posted: March/11/2011 at 15:30
Originally posted by Reegan Reegan wrote:

Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated. Very new to higher powered scopes. The variable scope would be nice, but it is really just out of my budget. For now, shooting paper, a fixed will probably work. I am used to fixed optics also.. I have used a 4x on semi-autos... This will be the first scope that i will be using MOA clicks though. Also, I like to use a reloader, will reloaded cartridges have any affect 100 yards and out? Sorry for any stupid questions.
 
 
Reegan,
 
A fixed power scope will work well for your mil adjustments on your scope.  Once you get into variable power scopes, unless you are using a first focal plane (FFP) retical, the mil adjustments will change based on the variable power setting and are only true at one setting (usually 10x or max power, depending on brand).  And most FFP scopes are fairly expensive.  I use a second focal plane (SFP) Bushnell Tactical Elite 2.5-16x42 on my Remington .308 and it works impressively!  I bought it on http://www.swfa.com - www.swfa.com , but it may be a little out of your price range, but is worth it.
 
Also, with reloading there are a lot of variable put into play (powder type, powder ammount, bullet coefficient, bullet weight, etc.)  I would recommend doing a lot of research into the caliber.  Everyone one here is correct is stating the .308 is easy for reloading, lots of brass available and a large selection of bullets.  If you're not familiar with it, I would recommend using a ballistics calculator to "get close" on your targeting.  Also, this will give you the MOA adjustments needed at various ranges based on your zero range.  100yds might be a little close to zero for 600yd shooting.  I would recommend a 300yd zero....
 
Which goes on to the next point.  Whichever scope you choose has to have enough elevation change built in to adjust for 600yds based on your zero range.  If a scope only has 50 MOA of adjustment and you need 65 to reach 600yds, you'll have to re-zero the rifle at a farther range (since bullets travel in a parabolic curve).  The use of the ballistics calculator can also help ensure the scope you choose has enough adjustments based on the zero range you choose (it will list the adjustments needed out to as far as you input).
 
And now to the next point.  You'll want to find a scope that "tracks" well.  Which means, you can adjust your MOA to reach a desired range, then crank it back down to zero and it won't "lose its zero".  Some of the lower priced scopes have a problem with tracking, which will frustrate the hell out of you on the range.  Once you've established a good zero, let's say at 100yds, and want to shoot 300yds, you can adjust the elevation on your scope to the recommended MOA (based on the ballistics calculator).  You can then shoot the SAME 100YD TARGET and measure this distance between shot groups.  This should correspond to the distance given on the ballistics calculator as the height at 100yds of a 300yd zero.  You can then crank it back down to the 100yd zero point you used previously and shoot the same target again.  It should give you the same elevation shot group you shot the first time.  (All of this assumes the same loads for each shot). 
 
Here's a link to a ballistics calculator I use:  http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi - http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
 
Hopefully this helps some.
 
Rick


Posted By: 308 Sav
Date Posted: March/11/2011 at 15:55
Originally posted by NC_Army_Guy NC_Army_Guy wrote:

Originally posted by Reegan Reegan wrote:

Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated. Very new to higher powered scopes. The variable scope would be nice, but it is really just out of my budget. For now, shooting paper, a fixed will probably work. I am used to fixed optics also.. I have used a 4x on semi-autos... This will be the first scope that i will be using MOA clicks though. Also, I like to use a reloader, will reloaded cartridges have any affect 100 yards and out? Sorry for any stupid questions.
 
 
Reegan,
 
A fixed power scope will work well for your mil adjustments on your scope.  Once you get into variable power scopes, unless you are using a first focal plane (FFP) retical, the mil adjustments will change based on the variable power setting and are only true at one setting (usually 10x or max power, depending on brand).  And most FFP scopes are fairly expensive.  I use a second focal plane (SFP) Bushnell Tactical Elite 2.5-16x42 on my Remington .308 and it works impressively!  I bought it on http://www.swfa.com - www.swfa.com , but it may be a little out of your price range, but is worth it.
 
Also, with reloading there are a lot of variable put into play (powder type, powder ammount, bullet coefficient, bullet weight, etc.)  I would recommend doing a lot of research into the caliber.  Everyone one here is correct is stating the .308 is easy for reloading, lots of brass available and a large selection of bullets.  If you're not familiar with it, I would recommend using a ballistics calculator to "get close" on your targeting.  Also, this will give you the MOA adjustments needed at various ranges based on your zero range.  100yds might be a little close to zero for 600yd shooting.  I would recommend a 300yd zero....
 
Which goes on to the next point.  Whichever scope you choose has to have enough elevation change built in to adjust for 600yds based on your zero range.  If a scope only has 50 MOA of adjustment and you need 65 to reach 600yds, you'll have to re-zero the rifle at a farther range (since bullets travel in a parabolic curve).  The use of the ballistics calculator can also help ensure the scope you choose has enough adjustments based on the zero range you choose (it will list the adjustments needed out to as far as you input).
 
And now to the next point.  You'll want to find a scope that "tracks" well.  Which means, you can adjust your MOA to reach a desired range, then crank it back down to zero and it won't "lose its zero".  Some of the lower priced scopes have a problem with tracking, which will frustrate the hell out of you on the range.  Once you've established a good zero, let's say at 100yds, and want to shoot 300yds, you can adjust the elevation on your scope to the recommended MOA (based on the ballistics calculator).  You can then shoot the SAME 100YD TARGET and measure this distance between shot groups.  This should correspond to the distance given on the ballistics calculator as the height at 100yds of a 300yd zero.  You can then crank it back down to the 100yd zero point you used previously and shoot the same target again.  It should give you the same elevation shot group you shot the first time.  (All of this assumes the same loads for each shot). 
 
Here's a link to a ballistics calculator I use:  http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi - http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
 
Hopefully this helps some.
 
Rick

Did I miss read this. If the scope does not have enough adjustment to reach 600 yards then it does not matter if it was zeroed at 100 or any range it will not get you to 600 unless you are doing holdovers. Without a canted base. or some other means of changing the position of the scope on the rifle.


-------------
Gerald Baker


Posted By: NC_Army_Guy
Date Posted: March/11/2011 at 16:21
Originally posted by 308 Sav 308 Sav wrote:

Originally posted by NC_Army_Guy NC_Army_Guy wrote:

Originally posted by Reegan Reegan wrote:

Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated. Very new to higher powered scopes. The variable scope would be nice, but it is really just out of my budget. For now, shooting paper, a fixed will probably work. I am used to fixed optics also.. I have used a 4x on semi-autos... This will be the first scope that i will be using MOA clicks though. Also, I like to use a reloader, will reloaded cartridges have any affect 100 yards and out? Sorry for any stupid questions.
 
 
Reegan,
 
A fixed power scope will work well for your mil adjustments on your scope.  Once you get into variable power scopes, unless you are using a first focal plane (FFP) retical, the mil adjustments will change based on the variable power setting and are only true at one setting (usually 10x or max power, depending on brand).  And most FFP scopes are fairly expensive.  I use a second focal plane (SFP) Bushnell Tactical Elite 2.5-16x42 on my Remington .308 and it works impressively!  I bought it on http://www.swfa.com - www.swfa.com , but it may be a little out of your price range, but is worth it.
 
Also, with reloading there are a lot of variable put into play (powder type, powder ammount, bullet coefficient, bullet weight, etc.)  I would recommend doing a lot of research into the caliber.  Everyone one here is correct is stating the .308 is easy for reloading, lots of brass available and a large selection of bullets.  If you're not familiar with it, I would recommend using a ballistics calculator to "get close" on your targeting.  Also, this will give you the MOA adjustments needed at various ranges based on your zero range.  100yds might be a little close to zero for 600yd shooting.  I would recommend a 300yd zero....
 
Which goes on to the next point.  Whichever scope you choose has to have enough elevation change built in to adjust for 600yds based on your zero range.  If a scope only has 50 MOA of adjustment and you need 65 to reach 600yds, you'll have to re-zero the rifle at a farther range (since bullets travel in a parabolic curve).  The use of the ballistics calculator can also help ensure the scope you choose has enough adjustments based on the zero range you choose (it will list the adjustments needed out to as far as you input).
 
And now to the next point.  You'll want to find a scope that "tracks" well.  Which means, you can adjust your MOA to reach a desired range, then crank it back down to zero and it won't "lose its zero".  Some of the lower priced scopes have a problem with tracking, which will frustrate the hell out of you on the range.  Once you've established a good zero, let's say at 100yds, and want to shoot 300yds, you can adjust the elevation on your scope to the recommended MOA (based on the ballistics calculator).  You can then shoot the SAME 100YD TARGET and measure this distance between shot groups.  This should correspond to the distance given on the ballistics calculator as the height at 100yds of a 300yd zero.  You can then crank it back down to the 100yd zero point you used previously and shoot the same target again.  It should give you the same elevation shot group you shot the first time.  (All of this assumes the same loads for each shot). 
 
Here's a link to a ballistics calculator I use:  http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi - http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
 
Hopefully this helps some.
 
Rick

Did I miss read this. If the scope does not have enough adjustment to reach 600 yards then it does not matter if it was zeroed at 100 or any range it will not get you to 600 unless you are doing holdovers. Without a canted base. or some other means of changing the position of the scope on the rifle.
 
Gerald,
 
Here's a chart for a .308 165gr bullet (all input was made up off the top of my head) at a 100 yrd zero.
 
Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Barnes Description: X Boattail
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 165.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.505 G1
Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 0.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 3.637 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.4 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 342 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 290 yd
Range of Maximum Height:


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: March/11/2011 at 17:51
Welcome to The OT, Rick! 

You in Fayette-nam?  Wink


Posted By: NC_Army_Guy
Date Posted: March/16/2011 at 11:29
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Welcome to The OT, Rick! 

You in Fayette-nam?  Wink


Posted By: NC_Army_Guy
Date Posted: March/16/2011 at 11:30
Thanks Cheaptrick,
 
No, just am from NC originally.  I'd rather put that as my location than my current duty assignment in FL! 
 
11 years down so far and only 9 to go!  Hope to retire out of Fayette-nam, though!


Posted By: JIHE
Date Posted: July/14/2011 at 20:48
Hello, everyone! I am a novice here, nice to meet you.I want to know more about scope.


EDIT:  Removed spam links in signature line.


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Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: July/14/2011 at 21:16
Puker



Sorry,

SPAM doesn't agree with me.





-------------
-Matt


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: July/15/2011 at 07:20


Posted By: G Kurtz
Date Posted: December/16/2011 at 06:53
Nice thread. Would like to add my recipe:
 
Rem 700 Police .308
Leupold variX II 3-9x
Harris bipod
 
42.8 grains of Vihtavuori N140 in a Lapua case (pre-formed; trimmed h 2.006; l 0.334) + Federal
all behind a Lapua FMJ-HPBT 167.3 grains (ocl 2.780)
 
Zero 100 = up 12 MOA at 600 meters 
 
Good fun
 
A+
K
 


Posted By: jjrgr21
Date Posted: December/16/2011 at 07:34
i have an el-cheapo savage edge .308,that will damn near cut 1 hole groups @100. it's topped with the SS 10X, and can get hits on steel out to 900. with scope and all its a sub $600 gun.

savage makes real good rifles


Posted By: ba_50
Date Posted: October/14/2013 at 15:19
When using a 10x on a 30/06 target rifle at 900-1000 yards I manage to recover from the recoil to see bullet strikes. It was tougher when I had a Unertl 15x but doable. If shooting at standard 1000 yard paper target I would go with 16 or more.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/14/2013 at 16:32
why did you need to resurrect a two year old thread?

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/15/2013 at 04:38
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

why did you need to resurrect a two year old thread?
 
Bucky I am a slow reader, it took me a while to get through all this stuff, specially those drop charts


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: October/16/2013 at 11:54
Well at least Rick is now down to 7 years Big Smile Thanks for your service Excellent

-------------
Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken



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