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What calibers should I consider?

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Topic: What calibers should I consider?
Posted By: Hatari
Subject: What calibers should I consider?
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 09:37
I currently have a .325 WSM, and I am thinking about getting something larger for down the road.  I was considering a .375 H&H as a next step, but looking at the numbers I am not sure it really offers anything over the .325. 
 
If you were looking at caliber for potential African game (many years away on the affordability scale), but would still be O.K. in Alaska, what would you be looking at?



Replies:
Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 09:46
The 458 Lott comes to mind.  it will take down trees!Wink


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 09:58
458 win mag, 458LOTT, 700 nitro.

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P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 10:08
 Can't see a .375 H&H not doing what you want.  To me it seems to be a decent step up from the .323 bullet and in power from the .325WSM. 
 But if I was thinking along your lines I'd probably consider one of the .416 caliber rounds(after I tried one to see if I could handle it Bucky).  A flat shooting 400gr bullet should be GOOD. 


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: saitotiktmdog
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 10:10
.458 Lott. .416 ruger. .416 Rigby. .404 Jeffrey
.505 Gibbs


Posted By: lockstocknbarrel
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 10:14
The 458 LOTT and the 700 nitro are true elephant guns.  They are heavy things to pack around.  I have been wanting a 325 WSM for some time because it has the same bullet deminsion as the 8mm which I have always liked.  I do have a 375 H&H and I love it.  Look at bullet weights and then tell me the numbers are the same for the 325 and 375.  You're looking on average of 100 grains more bullet weight with the 375!  That will knock down most anything...even elephants.  In my opinion, you just can't go wrong with the 375, and I don't think anybody goes to Africa without at least one of them in their arsenal.

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lockstocknbarrel


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 10:18
.375 H&H is what I have. It is the legal minimum for dangerous game in many African countries.
It also has more energy and momentum than the .325 WSM. The 300 grain bullets are well known to penetrate deeply.


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Doug


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:20

Thanks for the suggestions so far.  I guess I would need to shoot the 416 and 458 size stuff to see if my shoulder would stay in one piece Whacko

 

I ran this simulation over on the Winchester site.  Granted, the bullets are 200 vs 300 grain, but past 50 yards, it looks like the total energy downrange is higher for the 325 than the 375.

Or am I missing something obvious here (wouldn't be the first time)?

Simulated Shooting Conditions

Sight-in Range:  100 yds   Max Range:  500 yds
Cross Wind:  0 mph   Temp:  74 F
Altitude:  1000 msl   Sight Height:  1.5 in
 
325 Winchester Short Magnum 200 gr. Supreme Elite™ XP3®
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.5 - Muzzle Velocity: 2950
DISTANCE TIME ELAPSED LINE-OF-SIGHT DROP WIND DRIFT VELOCITY ENERGY
0 0 -1.5 0 2950 3860.91
50 0.05 -0.2 0 2854 3614.8
100 0.11 0 0 2761 3381.76
150 0.16 -0.9 0 2669 3161.02
200 0.22 -3 0 2579 2951.9
250 0.28 -6.5 0 2491 2753.81
300 0.34 -11.4 0 2405 2566.26
350 0.4 -17.7 0 2320 2388.78
400 0.47 -25.7 0 2237 2220.93
450 0.54 -35.4 0 2156 2062.36
500 0.61 -46.9 0 2076 1912.81
 
375 H&H 300 gr. Supreme® Nosler Solid
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.198 - Muzzle Velocity: 2605
DISTANCE TIME ELAPSED LINE-OF-SIGHT DROP WIND DRIFT VELOCITY ENERGY
0 0 -1.5 0 2605 4515.99
50 0.06 0 0 2385 3784.45
100 0.13 0 0 2175 3148.38
150 0.2 -1.8 0 1976 2599.24
200 0.28 -5.9 0 1789 2130.73
250 0.37 -12.7 0 1616 1737.65
300 0.46 -22.9 0 1458 1415.32
350 0.57 -37.1 0 1320 1159.23
400 0.69 -56.4 0 1204 964.71
450 0.82


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:21
i have a H&H also, love it! if you dont feel .375 is big enough, i really think either a .416 ruger or a .458 win should fit the bill. i wouldnt be a bit scared of taking my H&H to africa though.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:22
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

The 458 Lott comes to mind.  it will take down trees!Wink


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:22
Just setup and get and Anzio 20MM.  It'll do the trickBig Grin


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:26
The tree was defective...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:27
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

The tree was defective...
Roll on Floor Laughing


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:27

I also like the .375 H&H it has a great history, great bullet & load selection and plenty of energy for any of the dangerous game.  While it might be alittle light for elephant, I think its more versatile than the over .40 crowd.  It also is available from numerous manufacturers at almost all price ranges.



-------------
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:28
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

Just setup and get and Anzio 20MM.  It'll do the trickBig Grin
 
I was thinking about a 50 BMG.  I figured I could be at a nice safe distance that way. Big Grin
 
 
Kickboxer, I love the former tree photo! 


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:32
I finally told my wife what happened... she was not impressed, just said "I KNEW you did it..."
 
.458 Lott is "most chosen" caliber by PH's...  Lot's (get it, lot's  Lott...)  of ammo available in Africa. 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Shenko
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:46
The obvious thing you're missing is the difference in BC of those two bullets.
You're comparing a pointed, plastic-tipped boat tail to a round nose.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:46
Originally posted by Hatari Hatari wrote:

Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

Just setup and get and Anzio 20MM.  It'll do the trickBig Grin
 
I was thinking about a 50 BMG.  I figured I could be at a nice safe distance that way. Big Grin
 
 
Kickboxer, I love the former tree photo! 

have fun carting that heavy sob around the mountains of alaska


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:46
How does the 458 lott compare to the 460 weatherby?


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:48
one kicks, the other kicks harder

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:48
Originally posted by Shenko Shenko wrote:

The obvious thing you're missing is the difference in BC of those two bullets.
You're comparing a pointed, plastic-tipped boat tail to a round nose.
 
Yeah there is that, but the options were limited.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 11:56
the 260gr nosler accubond has .473bc which isnt to shabby. for a .375 diam bullet.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 12:15
The Lott cannot match the 460 Weatherby for raw power, Max ME I've shot with the Lott is about 6200ft/lb (it was less than comfortable, but after 5 rounds, I could still use my arm, after 10 I had a bruise, but not too bad).  The Weatherby will easily exceed that--7000-8000ft/lbs.  However, the Lott has a BIG advantage in accuracy.  At 100 yards, 5 rounds, 1/2 inch group is easily doable.  Sure, most people don't shoot "long range" with big bore rifles, but I've consistently shot just over 1MOA at 300 yards and it's still carrying a heavy wallop. The 460 won't give you nearly that kind of accuracy, but with that much power, you may not need accuracy. 
With the Lott, I made the mistake, ONCE, of not properly addressing the rifle... had about a 1/4 inch gap between the butt and my shoulder( had been shooting for a while, got cocky and careless)... shooting Hornady 500gr DG load.  Believe me, that is a mistake I learned to NEVER make again...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 13:56
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  Believe me, that is a mistake I learned to NEVER make again...
 
Ouch.


Posted By: The Dude
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 14:04
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 Can't see a .375 H&H not doing what you want.  To me it seems to be a decent step up from the .323 bullet and in power from the .325WSM. 
 But if I was thinking along your lines I'd probably consider one of the .416 caliber rounds(after I tried one to see if I could handle it Bucky).  A flat shooting 400gr bullet should be GOOD. 
Good advice as usuall 300....i'd give the 416 Ruger a try were I in the market for a heavy hitter.
 
 
Josh


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 14:45
  That would be a good one for sure. Ever shot one? I'd like to try shooting some of the bigger calibers but had a couple neck surgeries and was told to be cool with sudden neck movements.  I figure large calibers in hvy rifles should be ok though.  I have no roblems with my 8 1/2lb 9.3x62  or my 7 1/4lb .300.  Missed a chance to watch the guys I use to work with shooting a single shot .50BMG Barret.  29lbs I think they said.  I'd of had to see how the guys moved under recoil before I would have tried it.

-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: The Dude
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 21:41
Never shot the 416, but used to own a 375 ruger when I lived up in AK. I also had a 45-70 that could push back a little with heavy cast loads.

I built a 9.3x62 on a Ruger MK II action with a #4 McGowen a few years ago that I liked quite a bit but it was a heavy sob. It didn't make it back from Alaska though when I moved back down. That is one fine cartridge for sure. 

Go easy on your neck 300! Tough to fix injuries there. I got whiplash back in 2000 from being rear ended and still feel that one!

Josh



Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: September/23/2010 at 22:02
 SIL just got an 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70.  Him and my daughter been shooting 405gr Rem factory ammo for now.  He got everything to reload it except for components.  My daughter REALLY LIKES it.
 
  I hear ya about the neck.  I got a GOOD neurosurgeon on call keeping tabs on two more discs that I hurt(four total).  Fused one and replaced the other with an artificial one.  Hit the roof of a CAT 50 ton rock truck about 12yrs ago.  Can't complain though.  Still got full movement.  But I can tell ya when it's gonna rain! LOL 


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: The Dude
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 09:10
Wait til he adds 6 or 7 hundred fps to that 405g bullet, or better yet a 350g a little faster. That will get yer blood flowin' in a hurry! I liked RL-7 and hard cast best in mine. Wish I still had that little gun. Light, fast and packs a pretty serious punch if you want it to.

Dont move to Washington state! Neck would be twitching non-stop..it rains all the time!

Josh


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 09:40

Everryone needs a .375 H&H it's like the 30-06 of big game rifles and if you reload you can get a lot of enjoyment out of it .  If you are really going to Africa the 416 Rigby and the 458 Lott make more sense.



-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 10:12

The 325wsm should be fine for Alaska and any Plains game, Dangerous game in Africa is going to dictate a minimum of .375.  I'd follow the advise on my PH for this.



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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: bricat
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 12:00



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Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 12:22
I just re-ran the Winchester ballistics calculator with a .375 that has a closer BC to the .325, not exact, but closer than the first one.
 
 
 
Simulated Shooting Conditions

Sight-in Range: 

100 yds

 

Max Range: 

500 yds

Cross Wind: 

0 mph

 

Temp: 

59 F

Altitude: 



Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 12:26
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Everryone needs a .375 H&H it's like the 30-06 of big game rifles and if you reload you can get a lot of enjoyment out of it .  If you are really going to Africa the 416 Rigby and the 458 Lott make more sense.

Like I said, Africa would still be MANY years down the road.  I was just thinking of getting something I may be able to use in the near future but that would still be usefull for the MANY years down the road trip also.
 
Of course, I could get something like the .375 now and get used to a bit bigger gun, then later add another toy...
 
 


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 13:57

Thats the idea.Wink



-------------
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 15:27

The .325 should work just fine on just about anything but the African Big-5 (which now includes hippo instead of rhino).

The African ".375 versus .416, .458, Lott, etc. " discussion hopefully will still be going on long after we are both dead.   Bottom line:  The scoped .375 is more versatile, and the .400's hit harder at both ends.  Craig Boddington's conclusion on elephant:  Penetration trumps everything, including caliber.  (The .375 and .416 have it, as do some of the other big .400s.)  
 
Try them at the range, and see what you like.  Shooters are a friendly bunch.  Someone will likely be willing to let you try a shot or two with their rifle.  If they are shooting one of the big boomers without a lead sled or shoulder protection, they will NEED to take a break after a few shots!
 
If an African dangerous game hunt is your daydream, you will have lots of fun "worrying" over your choices.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 18:26
[QUOTE=Hatari]
I just re-ran the Winchester ballistics calculator with a .375 that has a closer BC to the .325, not exact, but closer than the first one.
 
 
 
Simulated Shooting Conditions

Sight-in Range: 

100 yds

 

Max Range: 

500 yds

Cross Wind: 

0 mph

 

Temp: 

59 F

Altitude: 

1000 msl

 

Sight Height: 

1.5 in

 

375 H&H 300 gr. Supreme® Nosler Partition
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.398 - Muzzle Velocity: 2605

DISTANCE

TIME ELAPSED



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"



Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: September/24/2010 at 22:22
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 SIL just got an 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70.  Him and my daughter been shooting 405gr Rem factory ammo for now.  He got everything to reload it except for components.  My daughter REALLY LIKES it.
 
  I hear ya about the neck.  I got a GOOD neurosurgeon on call keeping tabs on two more discs that I hurt(four total).  Fused one and replaced the other with an artificial one.  Hit the roof of a CAT 50 ton rock truck about 12yrs ago.  Can't complain though.  Still got full movement.  But I can tell ya when it's gonna rain! LOL 

I have the guide gun as well 300.  I love it.  My favorite round to shoot right now is the Buffalo Bore 350 gr @2100 fps.  Has some serious thump to it.

As for an Africa gun.  I have thought I would get either a 375 H&H or a 416.  Just my thoughts now, but I could be talked into another caliber I guess.


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/25/2010 at 07:28
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

those 300gr bullets werent made for 500yds, they were made for more like 50yds, or in a lot of instances in africa 50ft. look at the sizeable difference in energy between the two at the muzzle and at 50yds, then tell me how good the 325wsm is.
 
Agreed.
 
I just wanted to post some bullet figures from more similar bullets to correct my original comparison post that such a large BC varience. 


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: September/25/2010 at 07:53
  My SIL is really looking forward to taking his first head of game with his GG!  Right now he's leaning towards using cast bullets(CHEAP!). So I want to ask Dude what his cast load consists of.
 
  I tell ya,I use to only be of the "higher the velocity the best for hunting" mind set .  Big and slow to moderate just never appealed to me.  But after reading so much about those kind of cartridges and the guys hunting experiences with them over the years (ESPECIALLY Finn Aagaard) I could ignore them no longer.  I've come to the conclusion that except for trajectory differences(and they can be overcome with PRACTICE)both kill game equally as well.  No rocket science to it.  So I now use both a .300 magnum and a 9.3x62mm.


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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/25/2010 at 10:04
Originally posted by Hatari Hatari wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

those 300gr bullets werent made for 500yds, they were made for more like 50yds, or in a lot of instances in africa 50ft. look at the sizeable difference in energy between the two at the muzzle and at 50yds, then tell me how good the 325wsm is.
 
Agreed.
 
I just wanted to post some bullet figures from more similar bullets to correct my original comparison post that such a large BC varience. 

looking at my nosler manual i could compare the 260gr accubond in the .375 to your 200gr accubond in the .325. they both are pretty close in b.c and s.d both. the 325 will have about 200fps more speed  with roughly the same amount of powder ( within 4grs actually) so figure 2965fps with the .325 and a 200gr bullet and 2800fps with the .375H&H. in the nosler book the H&H data was shot using a 24" tube and the .325 used a 26" tube.
H&H .473 b.c .325wsm .450 b.c


here is the 325 in noslers configuration.
RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
02965-0.50039040
102938-0.260.040.0138340.44
202917-0.060.120.0237790.46
3028960.090.250.0337250.49
4028740.210.410.0436680.54
5028530.290.610.0536150.6
6028320.320.860.0635620.67
7028110.311.150.0835090.76
8027910.251.490.0934590.86
9027700.151.870.134080.98
100274902.30.1133561.11

here is a .375

RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
02800-0.50045260
102776-0.240.050.0144490.44
202756-0.030.140.0243850.46
3027370.150.270.0443250.49
4027170.270.450.0542620.54
5026980.350.680.064203

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/25/2010 at 10:11
here's out to 500yds.


RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
02965-0.50039040
5028530.290.610.0536150.6
100274902.30.1133561.11
1502648-1.445.130.1631141.96
2002549-4.129.210.2228863.17
2502453-8.1514.640.2826724.77
3002359-13.6321.520.3424716.77
3502267-20.6829.960.4122829.2
4002177-29.4240.10.48210512.08
4502089-39.9952.070.55193815.43
5002004-52.5766.050.62178419.3


H&H

RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
02800-0.50045260
5026980.350.680.0642030.6
100260302.560.1139121.12
1502510-1.635.720.1736371.99
2002419-4.6610.270.2333783.23
2502330-9.1816.320.331344.87
3002244-15.323.970.3629076.91
3502159-23.1533.350.4326919.39
4002075-32.8744.6

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Hatari
Date Posted: September/25/2010 at 12:04
Thanks for that information Pyro6999.
 
That helps put it in persepective.
 
 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: September/25/2010 at 12:19
Originally posted by Hatari Hatari wrote:

Thanks for that information Pyro6999.
 
That helps put it in persepective.
 
 

im impressed with the .325 myself, i just wish it was a .338 instead of an 8mm. the bullet selection for .338 is way better. the .325 wsm has been called the most efficient of the bunch in the wsm family. its a nice round, just to bad its an 8mm.


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: September/29/2010 at 17:59
For Plains Game a 300 Magnum or a 30-06 would be just fine.  Since you already have a 325, you would be in good shape.  If you wanted to hunt Dangerous Game, you must use a .375 caliber......
 
 
 


-------------
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http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=50 - THE ED SHOW

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