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Neck sizing or full lenght ???

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Topic: Neck sizing or full lenght ???
Posted By: shooter4
Subject: Neck sizing or full lenght ???
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 04:12
Gentlemen
 
I have a question about the operation of the (RCBS) die set. It says somewhere "adjust the resizing die to either full lenght OR neck size the case". 
 
Can you guys tell me whats the difference here? I did not know I could choose between those two operations. I thought it was only one - resizing the neck for the new bullett.  How do I just neck size, and how do I do both? 
 
As always - THANKS.



Replies:
Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 07:38
you can adjust the height of the die in the press so it only neck sizes the case instead of full length sizing it.

it saves on your brass, makes it last longer and can promote better accuracy. if you are loading for a semi auto i wouldnt recommend it.


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 08:16

To add to what Pyro said, if your potentionally going to use your reloaded ammo in other rifles always full length resize.  This brings the ammo back to original factory specs.  If your only going to load for that particular rifle you may want to try neck resizing. This allows the brass to be fire formed to your chamber and should promote accuracy.  Just remember that this ammo is likely to work in your rifle only.



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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 08:41
You don't necessarily have to use "full-length sizing" for loads used in a sporting semi-auto rifle.  It depends in part on the rifle, the load, and whether the ammunition will be used in another rifle  
 
I used neck-sized rounds in a Remington 742 semi-auto .30-06 without any problems.  These were regular loads (not max), and used only in this rifle.
 
Ditto for pump rifles.  I use Lee collet dies to load for my Remington 7600 pump .30-06,  without any problems.  Again, these are regular loads (not max) and are used in this rifle only.   


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:06
Neck sizing does not always lead to better accuracy at least not all the time.  Typically you will have to full length resize every few reloads anyway.  This will vary depending upon the round, but some might make it 4 or more while others you have to do it every other load. 

Problem with neck sizing is then when you have to full length resize things have changed a whole lot for that particular round because the brass is now a different size.  So it is going to shoot different than your neck sized only.  If you full length resize every time then your brass will always be the exact same size from shot to shot.  Yes it will wear out your brass faster but it will be more consistant and the key to accuracy is consistancy. 

Lots of shooters searching for the very best accuracy and consistancy just full length everytime.


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: shooter4
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:39

Im only using it for one rifle (Tikka T3). What Im interested to know more about, how to I adjust my die for neck sizing only? Do I just screw it up high in my press, or not pull the lever down all the way?

Also, it there a lot of difference in case life if I choose to full size?
 
Many thanks guys.


Posted By: Terry Lamb
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:46
Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

To add to what Pyro said, if your potentionally going to use your reloaded ammo in other rifles always full length resize.  This brings the ammo back to original factory specs.  If your only going to load for that particular rifle you may want to try neck resizing. This allows the brass to be fire formed to your chamber and should promote accuracy.  Just remember that this ammo is likely to work in your rifle only.

lucytuma's advice is dead-on. Neck size only for the rifle in which the brass was fired. I have a pair of 03-A3 Springfields. Neck sized reloads for one will not even chamber in the other. Now I just full-length everything so the loads can be used in both rifles. Full-length sizing does stress the brass and reduce its life, but at least then the loads are not rifle-specific.

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Terry Lamb


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:53
One more thing to add.  Neck sizing does not mean they will always fit your chamber exactly either.  They obviously are changing a little every single time you shoot them.  They continue to grow until they have to be full length resized meaning they will be a slightly different size every shot.

Plus, in reality a chamber is not perfectly round.  One side of the brass may expand more than the other because the chamber is not all equal.  So unless you put it back in your chamber the exact same way the next time you somewhat loose the whole neck sizing only so it is perfectly fitted to your chamber thing anyway 

If you full length resize everytime then it is always the same size from shot to shot. 

But if we are talking hunting accuracy all this is probably a moot point.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: shooter4
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 11:43
How to I adjust my die for neck sizing only? Do I just screw it up high in my press, or not pull the lever down all the way?


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

you can adjust the height of the die in the press so it only neck sizes the case instead of full length sizing it.


As he said there you have to adjust the die.  If you tried to do it by pulling the lever a certain amount you would never be consistent.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: rkingston
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:05

Follow the die manufacturers directions and recommendations for setting up the FL resizing die for neck sizing. I use Redding dies and there is an instruction card with a procedure for backing the die out the proper distance to neck size only. I'm sure others like RCBS are the same. As stated in the other posts, if it's for your gun only neck size it. If it's for any other gun full length size it.

RK


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:15
To properly size just the neck with a full-length die (AKA partial-FL resizing), you really need a tool like the Hornady case length gauge. That will allow you to measure a fired case and then you can start with the die so it isn't sizing the case at all and turn it down until it starts to resize the case just a tiny bit. You're looking to set the case mouth and neck back  only .001-.002". The case length gauge measures from the datum point on the case neck, rather than the case mouth. On non-banded cartridges, the datum point is where the case is held in the chamber, preventing the case from moving forward during firing.

It is true that you will alter the case each time it is fired, but that isn't necessarily a reason not to partial-FL resize. As brass flows towards the case mouth, you will eventually have to trim the end of the case so that its OAL doesn't exceed the chamber length. That is dangerous. Eventually, after a certain number of firings, enough brass will flow that area around the case head will become thin and weaken. Also, the brass will work-harden and unless it is properly annealed around the neck to soften just that part of the cartridge, it will lead to splits, etc.

I look at the equation this way: $0.55 (per .308 Lapua case)/10 firings of partially-FL resized case = $0.055 per round...then you may have to discard cases or learn how to anneal. So if you aren't interested in annealing or in learning how to do it correctly, that's your cost per round with high-quality brass and you get all the benefits (for one particular rifle) of using minimally resized fire-formed brass.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:20
Wow, 10 firings with no annealing?  I usually anneal every 4th firing.  Even with partial sizing you are still working the neck so they will still get quite brittle and will affect your neck tension.  

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:21
One note on neck sizing using the FL die is that when you back the die out you are also not resizing the entire neck as you would be able to if you were using a neck sizing specific die. Usually not a problem for most, but on a short necked round like the 300 WM it will be an issue.

PS To know how much of the neck is being resized using the FL/Partial method it's time to break out that invaluable tool on every serious reloading bench.......the Sharpie. That, or blacken the neck with a candle depending on your romantic moods :)


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 19:07
Roy, might I assume you are speaking of a 300 Win mag, and not a 300 weatherby?

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 19:08
You can only partial neck size with a full length die, that is you only size part of the neck
 
you do this by unthreading the die up about 3/4 turn.  If you thread the die further in then you will start to size the case body and like squeezing a baloon it will push the shoulder forward and create a crush fit (most of the time but it will depend upon how much head clearance or headspace you have on that particular case).
 
If you continue to thread the die in until it size all the neck, all the case body and contacts the shoulder just enough to relieve the crush fit, then that is partial full length resizing.  By pushing the shoulder back a minimal amount of .001" or so and leaving a very slight crush fit, then you will get the best brass life.  This usually happens about 1/8 to 1/4 turn down past where the die contacts the shell holder.
 
If you continue to push the shoulder back until there is no contact between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder, then that is full length resizing.  Repeatedly pushing the shoulder back and making it re-expand will shorten case life and lead to possible case head separations.
 
Now to neck size, or size all the neck, you need a dedicated neck sizing die.
 
http://www.303british.com/id29.html - http://www.303british.com/id29.html
http://www.varmintal.net/arelo.htm#Neck - http://www.varmintal.net/arelo.htm#Neck
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/dieadjust/index.asp - http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/dieadjust/index.asp


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: December/22/2009 at 19:17
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Roy, might I assume you are speaking of a 300 Win mag, and not a 300 weatherby?


Yes sir.


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:42
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Wow, 10 firings with no annealing?  I usually anneal every 4th firing.  Even with partial sizing you are still working the neck so they will still get quite brittle and will affect your neck tension.  


I was clearly wrong there. 4-5 firings is as much as you should expect between annealings, even with partial-FL resizing. I was not talking from actual experience, so I apologize for putting bad information out there.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: December/23/2009 at 20:58
There are a number of misconceptions about neck, partial and full-length resizing.
 
If we are interested in accuracy, the main point of any brass resizing is the make the case as straight as possible, so that when we seat a bullet it has the best chance of heading down the barrel without being tipped slightly. Ideally, the case shoulder center itself in the chamber, one reason that some reloaders like to partial-size the neck: The unsized portion of the neck just in front of the shoulder tends to center the neck in the chamber.
 
However, neck-sizing alone does not guarantee this, because most neck-sizing dies don't support the case body. Thus the neck can easily be pulled out of alignment with the case body when the neck is pulled over the expander ball. Partial sizing with a full-length die tends to prevent this, because the case is more fully supported.
 
Whether or not this causes problems with the case shoulder being "pushed" forward by the die depends a lot on the case itself. The more parallel the sides of the case, the more likely the shoulder will be bent forward during resizing, especially if the sizing die is much smaller than the chamber.
 
Commercial chambers and dies are cut with reamers that start at maximum size. As the reamer wears, the chamber/die gets smaller, until at some point it becomes the minimum size acceptable, and the reamer is toast. If you happen to get a maximum chamber, cut by a new reamer, and a minimum die, cut by a small reamer, then there often will be problems with sizing brass.
 
This is a long-winded way of saying whether to neck-size, partial-size or full-length size depends on a number of factors. There ain't any single answer. Using dies that only reduce the neck diameter (such as bushing dies, or Lee collet dies) sometimes works better with certain rifles than standard dies using an expander ball.


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/23/2009 at 21:49
Originally posted by shooter4 shooter4 wrote:

Gentlemen
 
I have a question about the operation of the (RCBS) die set. It says somewhere "adjust the resizing die to either full lenght OR neck size the case". 
 
Can you guys tell me whats the difference here? I did not know I could choose between those two operations. I thought it was only one - resizing the neck for the new bullett.  How do I just neck size, and how do I do both? 
 
As always - THANKS.
 Just to back up a step here; I don't believe we really ever answered this question in the  Original Post, (if he's asking what exactly we're trying to accomplish by resizing in the first place.)
 
When a fired case is resized for reloading, the goal is usually two-fold:
1. Compress the (enlarged) neck radially, to allow it to grip a new bullet at least firmly enough so that it doesn't fall out in your pocket, etc.
 And,
2. Compress the body of the expanded case (both radially and longitudinally) to allow it to fit back into the chamber.
 
 Either one or both of these operations may be legitimately performed to various degrees of dimensional change, depending on the circumstances involved, and the desired results.
 
 I just wanted to make that distinction clear before the discussion continued, in case it was overlooked.
 
Carry on!
 
 


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: December/24/2009 at 10:07
Good points!


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: December/24/2009 at 16:28
While on this subject I hope you can help me trouble shoot a brass issue I am having. The 700 Rem that I recently built is giving me some problems with shoulder length. I am having to pick thru new and fired brass to find brass with the shortest base to shoulder length. I first thought it was a problem with oal, but that proved to be no problem. I use RCBS full length and Winchester brass. What is the best solution for feeding this machine? 

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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/24/2009 at 20:47
 What cartridge is your 700 chambered for, Sarge?


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/24/2009 at 22:54
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Roy, might I assume you are speaking of a 300 Win mag, and not a 300 weatherby?


Yes sir.
Ok. As I read that my box of once fired 300 wby brass had just showed up, and the factory boxes were marked .300 WM Magnum. I pulled one out and looked at it, and thought the neck looked pretty long. I then went to the safe, and pulled out a .300 Win. I never really realized how short the neck is on those.

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 13:33
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 What cartridge is your 700 chambered for, Sarge?
 
 
Pyro's favorite, the wonderful .270. What gets me is some (reloaded) brass fired in this rifle won't got a second time. I wanted a short throat, but I wonder if it needs another 1000th for the shoulder. Or maybe different brass or dies. I am very precise when loading for it, but I didn't expect to have to be quite so picky with brass. I did expect fired brass to work well.


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 14:12
I partial re-size to the maximum length using Wilson case length gages for go-no go. I have been happy with the results in my bolt guns. I easily get 7-8 re-sizes in max load 7RM cases.
I use small base and full length re-size for my semi's in .06, .308 and .223. The only problem I've run into was shooting 165 gr SGK's from my BAR in my Garand. I had a head separation that scared me pretty good. Fortunately there was no damage to me or the gun. Because of the headspace on the Garand, also below max, it only gets fed something it already ate.


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 14:28
Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 What cartridge is your 700 chambered for, Sarge?
 
 
Pyro's favorite, the wonderful .270. What gets me is some (reloaded) brass fired in this rifle won't got a second time. I wanted a short throat, but I wonder if it needs another 1000th for the shoulder. Or maybe different brass or dies. I am very precise when loading for it, but I didn't expect to have to be quite so picky with brass. I did expect fired brass to work well.
 I would get a set of  headspace gages and a Wilson cartridge case gage such as Doug mentions. Used together, they should tell you what you need to know.
 I'm guessing that your RCBS die may not be sizing some of your brass quite enough, depending on hardness, thickness, etc. of the brass. The brass you size in it will fit between the high and low "landings" on the Wilson cartridge case gage if sized correctly.
 And the "GO" headspace gage will chamber in your rifle if the chamber is cut correctly. The "NO GO"gage must not chamber!
 
Throat length has no bearing on sizing issues, BTW. It does interact with bullet seating depths, but that is a completely seperate issue.
  A minimum chamber neck diameter, however, may prevent thick-walled brass from chambering once a bullet is seated in the cartridge. Some custom chambers are cut thus, and may require neck-turning of your brass to chamber.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 14:35
its the curse of the .270, if it was a .280 you wouldnt have that problemBucky

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 15:50
I just bought some once fired factory 300 wby brass off gunbroker. I ran it through my redding body die, and it still won't chamber. It's like the back of the case, right before the belt, about at the pressure ring is too big to fit in my chamber. I ran them through the die again, and got a couple to fit, but not many. Is my chamber that small? I've never run into this before. My bolt was still 1/4" from being all the way forward, there was no way I'd have gotten the bolt forward and pushed down. When I tried to get them back out, I had to smack the bolt back to get them out! HELP.............!!

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 16:06
are the cases bulged?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 16:27

Cases appear normal. After about 3-4 firings on my cases, and neck sizing only, I get about the same kind of sticky extraction, but after a trip through the body die, they are fine again.



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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 16:33
interesting, dont know what to tell you there. i would measure the area in question and compare it to a loaded round or a new unused case if you have one.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 16:43
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Cases appear normal. After about 3-4 firings on my cases, and neck sizing only, I get about the same kind of sticky extraction, but after a trip through the body die, they are fine again.



I would "Sharpie" them and see when they are sticking in your chamber. It's no an uncommon problem to have cases not feed from one gun to another even after a FL die trip. After all, you don't know the chamber dimensions of the gun they came from.


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 18:20
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Cases appear normal. After about 3-4 firings on my cases, and neck sizing only, I get about the same kind of sticky extraction, but after a trip through the body die, they are fine again.

 

After all, you don't know the chamber dimensions of the gun they came from.
Huge apperently.

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 18:34
Maybe you could shoot a PM to John Barsness and ask him his thoughts on this. I know he has at leat one 300 Weatherby. I know that Weatherby factory ammo tends to be loaded kinda hot so perhaps it's a combo of things if they were once fired factory cases


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 18:51
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

I just bought some once fired factory 300 wby brass off gunbroker. I ran it through my redding body die, and it still won't chamber. It's like the back of the case, right before the belt, about at the pressure ring is too big to fit in my chamber. I ran them through the die again, and got a couple to fit, but not many. Is my chamber that small? I've never run into this before. My bolt was still 1/4" from being all the way forward, there was no way I'd have gotten the bolt forward and pushed down. When I tried to get them back out, I had to smack the bolt back to get them out! HELP.............!!
 
You might be a candidate for the Innovative collet (2nd item down)
 
http://www.larrywillis.com/ - http://www.larrywillis.com/


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 19:00
Man, I thought you were going to recommend a 4 axis CNC machine...................grin


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 19:07
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

[QUOTE]
 
You might be a candidate for the Innovative collet (2nd item down)
 
http://www.larrywillis.com/ - http://www.larrywillis.com/
  Bob is right; this is your solution.
 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 19:55
talk to jb its one of his favorite rounds.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dave Wilson
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 20:40
i don't think anyone mentioned the fact that not all FL dies actually size brass enough. RCBS dies are notorious for this. have heard quite a few and have had 2 dies myself that simply didn't size the brass small enough to fit in a sammi chamber that was on the snug side.


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 20:55
I'll have to look into one...................and maybe a 4 axis cnc machine too.Big Grin

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: December/25/2009 at 23:20
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

its the curse of the .270, if it was a .280 you wouldnt have that problemBucky
 
 
 
 
Shocked Not a curse!!!!   Can't be. I'm sure there is some simple solution that dumpimg lots and lots of money in can find.
 
My concern about the dies is, They aren't really designed to set or reset the shoulder anyway. Are they?
And if not, then I either have to try different brass or have the chamber checked. That is why I was kinda hoping ya'll might tell me that certain dies are made to true the shoulder. Either I have missed the real problem or this is something that ya'll haven't seen before. I have measured every thing I could think of comparing a round that loads to those that don't and this is the only variable that makes any difference. And unless the chamber is bad out of round, why does some fired brass have a problem?
I have stepped into a level of precision that I have a great deal to learn about.


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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: December/26/2009 at 01:11
Sgt D
 
What kind of resizing die are you using?
 
How are you adjusting the die in the press?
 
Do you have any gauges for measuring the shoulder position?
 
If you are using an RCBS Full Length die then you should be able to adjust it to set the shoulder back and be able to chamber sized brass.  However you only want to set it back just enough and not too much or you will shorten your brass life.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/26/2009 at 08:36
Originally posted by Dave Wilson Dave Wilson wrote:

  I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that not all FL dies actually size brass enough. RCBS dies are notorious for this. Have heard quite a few and have had 2 dies myself that simply didn't size the brass small enough to fit in a sammi chamber that was on the snug side.
 
 
          Howdy (page 3)
 
 


Posted By: Dave Wilson
Date Posted: December/26/2009 at 10:20
Sorry, i stand corrected. i'm bettin this is the problem though. everyone just assumes the FL die makes the brass smaller than the chamber, but sometimes it doesn't!


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: December/26/2009 at 11:31
I have had 2 problems with dies not being adequate to resize enough.
 
My Redding Body Die in 280AI does not size the pressure ring area small enough to prevent binding after the case has been fired 3 times.   It leads to a little bit of sticky bolt lock down and a little bit more sticky bolt lift upon extraction.  That is a minor inconvenience.  The chamber is very tight as chambered by Hart barrels and is on the minimum side.  I would get the Innovative collet but they do not work on unbelted cases.  Soon as I get around to it I will send some fired cases to Redding and have them make me one a little smaller.
 
The other was also a Redding Body Die in 22-250 where the die could not be adjusted down far enough to push the shoulder back.  That is a factory Remington chamber which (IME) are large bodied, short shouldered and long throated.  The fix was to have 1/4" taken off the bottom of the die at a machine shop so it could be adjusted down far enough without binding on the shell holder.  Shell holders and dies are case hardened so lots of luck filing off any part of them.  You can do it with a grinder but that is messy and not as precise as the machine shop fix.
 
Edit to add:  Dave you are correct that sometimes dies are not small enough but I am betting Sgt D hasn't quite adjusted his die down far enough so I asked the questions.  If we determine that he is adjusting the die down far enough then your solution may be correct.
 
Hey Roy, where can I get a 4 axis CNC machine?  I don't have one and can't tolerate that!!  Wink


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: December/26/2009 at 13:14
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

I have had 2 problems with dies not being adequate to resize enough.
 
My Redding Body Die in 280AI does not size the pressure ring area small enough to prevent binding after the case has been fired 3 times.   It leads to a little bit of sticky bolt lock down and a little bit more sticky bolt lift upon extraction.  That is a minor inconvenience.  The chamber is very tight as chambered by Hart barrels and is on the minimum side.  I would get the Innovative collet but they do not work on unbelted cases.  Soon as I get around to it I will send some fired cases to Redding and have them make me one a little smaller.
 
The other was also a Redding Body Die in 22-250 where the die could not be adjusted down far enough to push the shoulder back.  That is a factory Remington chamber which (IME) are large bodied, short shouldered and long throated.  The fix was to have 1/4" taken off the bottom of the die at a machine shop so it could be adjusted down far enough without binding on the shell holder.  Shell holders and dies are case hardened so lots of luck filing off any part of them.  You can do it with a grinder but that is messy and not as precise as the machine shop fix.
 
Edit to add:  Dave you are correct that sometimes dies are not small enough but I am betting Sgt D hasn't quite adjusted his die down far enough so I asked the questions.  If we determine that he is adjusting the die down far enough then your solution may be correct.
 
Hey Roy, where can I get a 4 axis CNC machine?  I don't have one and can't tolerate that!!  Wink
 
 
This is where I hope you have provided the solution. In all my previous loading there has been no issue with shoulder length, so the main concern was to resize the length of the case to just above the rim. No one that I have worked with knows of any dies that set the shoulder, so I interpreted that as "doing so may damage/crush the case". That is where I will go now. I plan to load ssome rounds sunday and I will see if the RCBS small base dies will give me the set without causing any other problems. Thanks guys, I'm off to fill some deer tags.


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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: December/26/2009 at 13:50
Hey Sgt D
 
You can set your dies correctly to partial full length resize without gauges
 
  • Set your rifle up on the bench
  • Thread your FL die in until it hits the shell holder with the ram raised
  • Size a case and try it in your chamber, it probably won't fit
  • Thread the die in an additional 1/8 turn and size a case
  • Try it in your chamber, it may or may not fit without a crush fit
  • If the case did not fit, thread the die in a little bit more (a little goes a long way here) and size the case
  • Keep adjusting the die in and trying the case until the crush fit disappears and the case chambers

It helps if you put witness marks on your die and press to keep track because just a little adjustment and your case goes from a crush fit to chambering easily

 
What is happening is the die is lowered enough to hit the shoulder and push it back and makes the case easier to chamber.  What you do not want to do is continually push the shoulder back too much as that will shorten your brass life and lead to case head separations.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: December/28/2009 at 11:36
Exactly. You don't need all sorts of gauges to set up dies correctly, though obviously gauges don't hurt.
 
The Innivative collett for sizing the base of belted magnums works. I haven't had to use one, but know people who do.
 
The big problem, as I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, is that no matter how hard manufacturers try, it is very difficult to make both chambers and dies to precisely match each other in mass-produced quantities, every time. Sometimes we luck out and a new set of $30 dies matches the chamber of our rifle perfectly. That happened to me most amazingly with a set of RCBS dies and a custom-chambered .300 H&H--but will the RCBS dies match the chamber of the Ruger No. 1 .300 H&H I just bought? I won't know until I try them.
 
Sometimes the bottom of a sizing die has to be ground off a little in order to get it to work right. Sometimes even the brass is a problem: 6.5x55 brass varies in tiny ways from one brand to another, especially between U.S. and Euro brass. Sometimes the best solution is to have a company like Redding make a custom sizing die to match your chamber.
 
If we fool around with enough rifles over a period of time we're going to occasionally run into dies, chambers and brass that don't always match up. This doesn't mean that any of the stuff is defective (though that happens sometimes too, with anything man-made) but it also doesn't mean there isn't a relatively simple solution, even if it's a little expensive.


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: December/28/2009 at 11:37
Doesn't a few die companies make custom reloading dies if you sent them in 5 fired rounds?


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: December/28/2009 at 12:47
Yeah, you need to send some fired brass so they can make measurements.


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: December/28/2009 at 12:50
Have any of you tried this?


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/28/2009 at 20:09
yes, Huntington, 357/44 Bain and Davis, 7mmTCU, 9x26 (9mmx45mag case) .



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