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Model 70 upgrades

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
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Printed Date: March/29/2024 at 04:03
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Topic: Model 70 upgrades
Posted By: zac_ereman
Subject: Model 70 upgrades
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 12:07
Hey all.
I recently bought a Winchester Model 70 .30-06, and would like to get into precision hunting and deer hunting.  I was wondering what kind of upgrades would be appropriate to improve the accuracy of this rifle.
 
Right now I am thinking about buying the following items:
Harris (S) bipod
Bushnell Trophy DOA 600 4-12X40MM scope
Timney adjustable trigger.
 
I have already bought the following items just for target shooting:
Rifle rest
Rear sand bag
 
And suggestions to what I am purchasing or any other upgrades that I would need?
 
I would like to be able to shoot out to at least 600 yards.
 
Thank you



Replies:
Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 12:18

 A thousand rounds of ammo to shoot at targets out to 600 yards before you can ethically even think of hunting deer at that distance.

 Other than tons of practice, a good shooting sling and a good rangefinder should round you out pretty well as far as equipment goes.
 I think the thousand rounds of practice ammo might get you to upgrading your scope, though.


Posted By: magshooter1
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 12:50
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I think the thousand rounds of practice ammo might get you to upgrading your scope, though.

 
I bet he doesn't get anywhere near a thousand before he upgrades. Wink


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Some people are educated BEYOND their intelligence.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 13:02
I wouldn't try shooting any animal from that distance unless I knew that I could drop it.  At that distance, I would manily be target shooting.  But, thank you for your advice.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 13:06
Sounds like a reasonable plan.

If you are new to shooting I would probably go with a different scope and stay away from complicated reticles.

What is your budget for a scope?

ILya


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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 13:14
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

I wouldn't try shooting any animal from that distance unless I knew that I could drop it.  At that distance, I would manily be target shooting.  But, thank you for your advice.
 
That's just exactly my point- you'll need to do a lot of 600-yard target shooting before you'll be able to know that you can consistently hit a deer in the lungs at that distance. I give this same advice every time I hear anyone talking about quarter-mile plus deer "hunting", and it always sounds condescending or preachy, which isn't my intention..  But I don't care as long as you eventually come to realize what it entails before gut-shooting half a dozen deer.
 Friendly advice, glad you are taking it as such, and good luck to you in your quest.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 13:40

I know I can't reach 1000 yards with what I have right now.  I only have a 3-9X40.  Thats why I started this thread.  I need to know what I should get.



Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 13:46
I am not new to shooting, just shooting with this weapon and scopes.  I can hit 300 yards with iron sights on an M16 in the Army.  I have looked at a couple of scopes and I like the DOA from Bushnell and the ?BDC? from Nikon.  I watched a great video on the latter scope.  It was amazing that you zero to one distance and you can hit up to 500 yards without any problems.
 
As far as my budget goes:  I am currently deployed to Afghanistan (deployment money is great), so I would probably drop about 1K on it.
 
I do like the Nikon 2.5-10x44 Tactical Mil-Dot too, but it comes with a nice pricetag as well.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 13:55

I forgot to post this link to the scope I talked about:




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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: October/16/2009 at 14:08
As a courtesy to our hosts, SWFA, we try to not post links to their competitors (please see forum usage rules).

I am perhaps alone on this, but holdover reticles in second focal plane scopes only work well and easily in marketing videos.

As far as reaching 1000 yards.  I do not think the scope magnification is the limiting factor.  People shoot out to 1000 yards with 10x scopes all the time.

As it happens, 3-9x40 is a good configuration to start with, but I would go with a better scope than Trophy if you can afford it.

Something along the lines of Bushnell Elite 4200, Sightron S2 Big Sky, Vortex Viper or Weaver Grand Slam would fit the bill perfectly:
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-Elite-4200-Rifle-Scopes-C71.aspx - http://swfa.com/Bushnell-Elite-4200-Rifle-Scopes-C71.aspx
http://swfa.com/Sightron-SII-Big-Sky-Riflescopes-C174.aspx - http://swfa.com/Sightron-SII-Big-Sky-Riflescopes-C174.aspx
http://swfa.com/Vortex-Viper-Rifle-Scopes-C1410.aspx - http://swfa.com/Vortex-Viper-Rifle-Scopes-C1410.aspx
http://swfa.com/Weaver-Grand-Slam-Rifle-Scopes-C234.aspx - http://swfa.com/Weaver-Grand-Slam-Rifle-Scopes-C234.aspx

Any one of these is a major step up from the Trophy scope.

ILya



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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 10:34
What do you guys think about triggers? 
Which one should I go for?
The Jewell, Timney, Rifle Basix?


Posted By: biggreen747
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 10:40
If your budget allows for the Jewell go for it. If not do the Timney. It is easy to install yourself and easier on the bank account. I have on on my model 70 and love it..

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We measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 10:50
Scope: Zeiss Diavari 2.5-10x50
Trigger: depends on YOUR requirements... Jewell is the "top of the line", Timney has never let ME down, nor anyone I know who uses them.  The best gunsmith I ever knew would only use Timney...
LOTS of ammo and targets.  Forget about any long range hunting until you have fired at least a couple THOUSAND rounds at varying ranges between 600yds and your "max" range and proven to yourself that you can actually make a long range shot.  Shot in wind whenever you can and find someone who knows something about LR shooting to help you in the process.   Then, learn to get as close as you can before making a shot.  You realistically will probably never NEED to make a game kill over 400-450 yards.  There ARE opportunities for longer range, but they can usually be overcome with better hunting skills...
 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 11:15
Get Your Popcorn Ready


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: biggreen747
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 11:42
Kickboxer is right on the money... You need to shoot lots of ammo at REALLY LONG ranges.. Even then I doubt you will ever have to make many hunting shots that are that long.. I know there are people out there that can and do make those kind of shots and I hold nothing against them but for the vast majority of us (and I include myself in this category) I wouldn't even consider anything over 600yds. And while 300 or 400 yds may not seem far under controlled range conditions even shots in this range are really and truly long range shots in the field. Especially if the target is something like a small deer or antelope that you intend to take ethically and do not have the advantage of a steady rest in a box blind or elevated "treehouse" stand.

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We measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 11:43
Thanks.
I have looked into the Timney and will more than likey buy it, but I have read that you have to make modifications to the rifle.  Is this true or does Timney have a "drop-in" trigger that requires no modifications?
 
Also, I wouldn't shoot an animal from over 500 yards, just going for targets at that and longer ranges.


Posted By: biggreen747
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 11:47
Not sure about the newer M70 but on my New Haven action the pin that holds the bolt release had to be trimmed and/or replaced (I chose to trim mine). I had to do some stock work as well but that was due to the fact that I have an HSP Aluminum Block stock. Not sure about the factory stock.

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We measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 11:59
Timney's are supposed to be "drop in", but I have not run across one yet that did not require some work for installation.  It is generally just a little filing, had to reconstruct a spring once, had to do some reshaping on a stock once, but it is minor stuff... just tedious. 

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 16:32
Avatar

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http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=50 - THE ED SHOW

Ju Cucarachas!!!


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 16:34
I have an old Model 70 and I like the regular old Winchester trigger.   Bucky
 
 


-------------
Be sure to visit,

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=50 - THE ED SHOW

Ju Cucarachas!!!


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 17:27
I don't like the trigger weight of the original trigger.  I have however, found that you can adjust this.  I have experience on working on weapons, since I am basically an Army Gunsmith.  So, that may be another option for me to explore.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 17:31
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

I have an old Model 70 and I like the regular old Winchester trigger.   Bucky
 
 
 
For a hunting rifle, I have NO PROBLEM with the original trigger on the Model 70.  For longer range precision shooting, it is not optimum. 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 17:34
Yeah, I plan on doing some longer range precision shooting, so I need to change my trigger.


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 17:37
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

I don't like the trigger weight of the original trigger.  I have however, found that you can adjust this.  I have experience on working on weapons, since I am basically an Army Gunsmith.  So, that may be another option for me to explore.


Timney's are real nice. I guess it would depend on the rifle whether it's "drop in" or not. I know for my m700 it was.


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 17:38
I am not a master gunsmith, only passable at some things.  I don't have the skills, or generally the time, required to work the Model 70 trigger into a precision piece of hardware.  It CAN be done, but it is much easier to make the minor mods required with a Timney.  In some things, easy is good...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 18:13
easy.jpg easy button photo red picture by acid42

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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 18:38
If only life were this simple...lol


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 18:40
factory triggers work pretty good, but the basic unit will bring it down faster than a change in the trigger


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 19:08
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

factory triggers work pretty good, but the basic unit will bring it down faster than a change in the trigger
 
What do you mean by that?  I didn't understand the remark.


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 19:16
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

factory triggers work pretty good, but the basic unit will bring it down faster than a change in the trigger
 
What do you mean by that?  I didn't understand the remark.
 Yeah, that one flew right over my head too.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 19:23
How do you post a picture?


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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 19:46


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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 19:47
My rifle: Winchester Model 70 Shadow .30-06
It is factory right now, but not for long.
Deployed with money to spend on my baby...lol


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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 21:37
Put a Timmney in Dad's Savage 12FV pre accu trigger.  Dropped in no problems.  Highly recomend.

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If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/17/2009 at 22:07
the fn spr (winchester) has a factory 2 stage old style trigger the gun will do 1000 yds all day long-- because the rest of the package is there and doesn't rely on the trigger, Before you get to involved with a upgrade make sure the barrel is up to the task as it will have more effect on the total performance than the trigger


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 10:39
I just have the stock barrel on it right now

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 13:23
Does anyone have any good websites I could check out for custom stocks for my Model 70?

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 13:45
McMillian
Manners
Bell and Carlson
HS


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 14:04
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

Does anyone have any good websites I could check out for custom stocks for my Model 70?


http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet/the-459/Bell-and-Carlson-Browning/Detail - http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet/the-459/Bell-and-Carlson-Browning/Detail


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 14:04
Thanks Dale Clifford.
 
I have already checked out the McMillian website, they have some nice stocks.


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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 14:59
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

factory triggers work pretty good, but the basic unit will bring it down faster than a change in the trigger
 
General scuttlebutt is that FN SPR triggers need work "out of the box", they come at 4-4.5lb and adjustment requires filing and stoning of the sear.  Personally, I've just always found it easier and safer, from my point of view, to use a Timney replacement.  If yours performs well for you, that is great.  I've got some "untouched" weapons that perform much better than average.  I did have a new Model 70 30-06 that I could barely get 1MOA out of, AFTER replacing the trigger with a Timney, and a number of other mods.  I would prefer all weapons "out of the box" be precision instruments.  However, that is not the "norm"...  FN also builds specialized weapons, and while compatively not excessive in price, they require more than pocket change to purchase. 
Your SPR is a great looking rifle... wish I had one. 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 15:22
I agree with you kickboxer, I think every weapon should come "out-of-the-box" precision.  I have made up my mind, thanks you ya'lls posts.  I am going to go with the Timney trigger.
 
On another note: Has anyone used a Bushnell Trophy 4-12x40mm DOA 600?  If so, is it a descent scope?


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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 19:08
what does out of box precision mean-- its really easy to get a trigger to light. only problem I've had with win triggers is the "side ways movement" they have.
416 stock trigger does 600 yd. with my kid shooting it
223 - hs stock, 26" Hart magazine reworked for extended .68 gr. at 3100 fps. does 600 yds on its own. factory trigger.


Posted By: dls56
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 19:23
I recently bought a nice lightly used M70 LT Sporter .300 Win mag w/26 inch barrel (this is a post 64 controlled feed model).
The action screws weren't tight enough. There was copper build-up. The barrel was touching in the stock. The trigger was heavy.
A long afternoon later and it was clean, free-floated, wood was resealed, and the trigger was 2# +/- and crisp. It had come to me with a Leupold 3X9 w/ standard duplex reticle set in Leupold mounts and rings which I removed and reinstalled.
Have been taking it out to do a break-in and get used to it. Fantastic is all I can say, using plain old 180 grain core-loks 3" high at 100 yards puts it on at 265 making this gun and scope hunting combo good out to 300 yards for me. Next year it might get different optics (have had some great results with Zeiss Conquest and the Rapid-Z 600 reticle on a .270).
 Best of luck, if the DOA 600 is anything like a Rapid-Z 600 it will help with not only elevation but windage also. I put these contraptions in the same league with sliced bread.


Posted By: biggreen747
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 19:56
Nice M70's. I have the HSP sporter stock (Black w/Grey Web) and the Timney trigger on my M70 7mmRM which is the stainless barrel and action. Wish I had some pics to post but since I am nowhere near home I don't. Mine was one of the last model 70's out of New Haven and they were obviously having some serious quality control issues when mine was made. I won't go into details here but after changing the trigger and fixing a few of the other problems the rifle turned out to be exceptionally accurate. On another note. Although I have not personally used the Trophy but from what I have heard you may wish to move up to one of the Bushnell Elite models. They also come with the DOA reticles and are definitely a higher quality scope.

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We measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 20:07
Nice M70's.  I have been doing some research and would have to agree with you.  From what i've read, the Trophy model isn't a very good optic.  I think I will  go with the Elite 3200 or a Leupold.  I can't wait to get out of Afghanistan and play with my "baby" again.  I am researching / practicing camo techniques for when I get back.  I plan on doing a custom paint job myself.
 
 


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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 17:50
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

Nice M70's.  I have been doing some research and would have to agree with you.  From what i've read, the Trophy model isn't a very good optic.  I think I will  go with the Elite 3200 or a Leupold.  I can't wait to get out of Afghanistan and play with my "baby" again.  I am researching / practicing camo techniques for when I get back.  I plan on doing a custom paint job myself.
 
 
 Not to spend your money for you, but if you do upgrade, go straight to the 4200 or 6500 series if you stay with Bushnell, (which I can recommend). Skip right over the 3200. For a little more money, the 4200 and 6500 will prove to be significantly better glass.


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 19:07
Thanks RONK.  Which 6500 would you recommend?

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 19:27
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

what does out of box precision mean-- its really easy to get a trigger to light. only problem I've had with win triggers is the "side ways movement" they have.
416 stock trigger does 600 yd. with my kid shooting it
223 - hs stock, 26" Hart magazine reworked for extended .68 gr. at 3100 fps. does 600 yds on its own. factory trigger.
Dale...  
OK, let's discuss "out of the box" precision... My Voere Titan II was sold with a GUARANTEE of 1.27cm 5 shot group at 110m or they would replace, refund or provide the buyer with an equivalently priced rifle of any make of the buyer's choice.  H&K guaranteed the PSG-1 to put 50 continous rounds inside 1MOA at 600m.  Those are guarantees of "out of the box" precision.  I know of no mass producer, Winchester, Remington, Savage, etc who will even come close to such a claim. 
Obviously, trigger weight is not the total determinant in a trigger, as my mention of sear work would indicate. 
I wasn't going to do this, but went out and found this:
"

A great trigger is all about the lack of distraction. Think about forcing your self to man up and make a really good shot with a sorry assed staple gun feeling trigger, you know the type. What do you have to do to shoot that trigger well? You shift a large part of your attention, your mental focus onto trigger control. Willing your eye onto your sight and keeping it on target while you slowly struggle through distractions caused by the crummy trigger action – GRIT PING CRUnnnnCH Bang. It’s not that you can’t do it, it’s that it slows you down and forces you to take your attention away from the sight and the target.

Quality of trigger pull is everything to a shooter. " American Trigger Corp.  (Jerry Miculek uses their triggers).

I said I didn't like working on M70 triggers.  I have not had your luck with them.  I find your success with them refreshing.  However, there is a body of users who have had similar experiences to mine.  I know people who love their Model 70's JUST LIKE THEY ARE. 
 
Just like I don't think all BSA scopes are bad, I don't think all Winchester Model 70 triggers are bad, they are certainly passable for most hunting and the ones that came on my rifles were not BAD, just not as good as I wanted.  To say they will "do 600 yards" is pretty non-descriptive.  Can you put 50 consecutive rounds in 1MOA with one of your "stock" triggered Win Mod 70 triggered rifles?  If you were having a custom rifle built, would you put an unmodified (no trigger work at all) Win Mod 70 trigger in it? 
 
I have no problem with the fact that you like the triggers you have.  I like the Timneys I replaced my Mod 70 triggers with. 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 19:36
Jerry Springer

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 19:45
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

Jerry Springer
 
We don't need no stinkin Jerrys here.
This is a friendly conversation...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:06
Stop being a stick in the mud, it's called a joke.  I know it's friendly here.

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:09
Shoot Out

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:31
Get Your Popcorn Ready


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:48
Originally posted by zac_ereman zac_ereman wrote:

Stop being a stick in the mud, it's called a joke.  I know it's friendly here.
 
DUDE, lighten up... It WAS A JOKE... get it "we don't NEED no stinkin' Jerry's" ...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:50
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Get Your Popcorn Ready
Mike, how much do you spend on popcorn every year??  You've got to have a second job to pay for all that...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:54
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Get Your Popcorn Ready
Mike, how much do you spend on popcorn every year??  You've got to have a second job to pay for all that...


Roll on Floor Laughing

Ronk says the same thing.  Big Smile





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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:58
PokerRoll on Floor Laughing

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 21:05
not saying a good trigger isn't good, just that its still up to the shooter. Having shot some of the best handguns, custom made, in IPSC competition for 20 years I can savor the difference, and put it to good use. 6in in 600 yds, isn't that great, my ar10T will do that with the stock AR trigger. The stock trigger on the 223 will easily do that. but thats because the gun/loads/shooter are up to  it. The spr will do that with a crummy leupold on it. Thats just the Winchesters not talking about many others.2- never tried the big nell) Don't know how many AD's I've seen in 30 years of competitive shooting with shooters that want that special trigger, just to have the shot go off just a little early as they dolophin into a prone position at a full run. The real art is being able to shoot a bad trigger or mediocre trigger. And again this goes double for handguns in the event you have to use somelses in an emergency. About the only real out of the box stock precision triggers I've run into are these and thats why I have several.  (well


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 21:20

I don't know, Dale... 50 rounds continuous is a pretty hefty step.  I've done it with the PSG, I'd certainly like to see some others step up to it.  We're not talkin' taking breaks and letting the barrel cool.  That's 2 and 1/2 mags pretty much as fast as you can send the rounds and reload.  (I just caught the ammo part... the ammo I used with the PSG was purchased from Germany, it wasn't "run of the mill").

And I agree that there are a lot of trigger junkies who are much safer without a custom trigger job...

You have some very nice firearms, Dale.  Ever think about adopting?  I could be the son you never wanted...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:02
its not the 50 rds that gets you its the wind, these tests are made with no wind correction. A  tougher test is 20 head shots at 300 yds, under 1 min. or an IPSC rotating on signal at 25 yds with 30 yd movement to the left go prone shoot a popper on the left to activate a 5 mph mover right to left-- fasted time wins,
Ive got guns that haven't even been out of the boxes.
barrel cooling is something done in BR and sometimes working up a load. Ah but someday to shoot where they have but grass and wind flags.
there was post on SH of a euro shooter doing some fast bolt work on head shots that was pretty impressive, I'll see if I can find it.
commercial  or industrial shooters can do the same good shooting with or without the bells, Ive seen it first hand. I've had sears break in Remingtons, and replaced them with Rifle Basic, so just replacing a trigger to get better made parts is fine. Look at all the 1911's that have been done just for this reason.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:23
I did it on several occasions where wind was present, though not significant winds.  I agree that the 20 head shots at 300 is a good test.  The PSG loves it...  it is a semi, bolts can't compete.  Possibly the best semi-auto rifle ever built. 
If you want to test yourself, try 20 shots on 20 targets in 20 minutes, unknown ranges between 600 and 1000, (6-10 inch targets set up by others with no measurement, just a knowledge of where the 600 and 1000 yard lines are and allowed + or - 50 yards), NO calculators/PDA's, no mil-dot master, no wind flags or distance markers of any type, no gun dope other than ballistic table for the round.  Shooter cannot observe target placement, once the targets are set up the call is "shooter to the line".  Shooter walks to the shooting line and time begins.  It is sufficiently humbling. 


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/20/2009 at 07:39

Guess I'll have to take my words back, you've reminded me of the worst factory triggers ever invented and worthy of replacement everytime. The CETME trigger group. Were the targets all the same?



Posted By: zac_ereman
Date Posted: October/20/2009 at 11:06
That does sound quite difficult kickboxer

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"Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/20/2009 at 18:39
I hope that "20 shots on 20 targets" wasn't misunderstood, guys... That's 20 shots TOTAL, one on each target.  For me, it is a TOUGH course.  I have been "sufficiently humbled" every time I tried it. 

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/20/2009 at 21:16
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Guess I'll have to take my words back, you've reminded me of the worst factory triggers ever invented and worthy of replacement everytime. The CETME trigger group. Were the targets all the same?

No targets were not all the same...
 
Does this mean adoption is out of the question????


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/21/2009 at 09:22

Do you know how to reload on Dillons??



Posted By: green-grizzly
Date Posted: October/21/2009 at 10:11
I have had the Jewell, Timney and Rifle Basix triggers, and the first two required modification to the rifle.  I have the Rifle Basix trigger right now and am very pleased with it.  Crisp, simple and adjustable to where I want it (2 lbs).
 
It is simple to modify a stock Model 70 trigger down to 3.5 pounds or so.  It takes maybe ten minutes.  I don't advise going any lower than that.
 
For shooting farther than point blank range (250-300 yards with a 30-06), you are going to need to estimate the range very exactly.  So you will need a rangefinder. 
 
You will also need a scope with some type of target turrets and a fair amount of windage and elevation adjustment.  Fortunately, many moderately prices scopes these days have semi-target turrets, like some of the Bushnell Elite scopes and the Nikon Monarchs.  I have had good luck with the tracking on the Elites.
 
I have played around with rangefinding reticles and BDC reticles, but in my opinion they are a poor substitute for a rangefinder and target turrets.  Too much guestimation IMHO.  Things need to be very exact at long range.
 
You want a rigid stock.  There are many options.  It will need to be glass bedded.  This is a pretty simple thing to do yourself; just be sure to go crazy with the release agent.



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