Print Page | Close Window

Accurate Loads

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Reloading & Ballistics
Forum Description: Anything to do with ammunition
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=19734
Printed Date: March/28/2024 at 11:49
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Accurate Loads
Posted By: JF4545
Subject: Accurate Loads
Date Posted: October/11/2009 at 19:39
Ok Boys,              I would Appreciate your Experience and some of your Reloading Secrets...I would like to know the best/easiest way to create the most accurate loads. I cannot get many of the powders that the RL Manuals call for, If the book says the load is the most accurate. 
 
So I would like to know how you all do it...In other words if I want to work up a good 130gr. load for my 270 WSM using a TSX BT. Do I simply start with the lowest grains of Powder the Barnes Book calls for (RL 19 as an example) and work up to the Maximum amount (1 grain at a time) if need be and just pick the best one?
 
Or do I, If I cannot get good results from that powder, do I try a different powder and work up again?
 
Do you try a different bullet as a last resort and go back to your original powder that you started with and start the whole process over?
 
I would really like to hear the most simple method that you guys know works for YOU, so I do not have to waste any more time with trial and error than I have to...
 
I am currently or beginning loading for 7mm Rem. Mag. Bolt and Auto with regular and smaller dies. Also 223 Auto, 7mm-08, 270 WSM, 45 ACP.
 
Thanks! Im always grateful for the help I receive here at OT...I only wish I had started improving my shootin skills years ago...
JF
 
PS, I guess if its a MUST to have the PROPER POWDER to get the best load, then Im willing to order the powder online and pay the extra hazard fee.. I really do not want 2nd best, that way I will always know its ME and not the load or the rifle, etc.Thunbs Up



Replies:
Posted By: magshooter1
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 08:23
I always work up in 1/2 grain increments.  I weigh every charge.   Also I have found that COAL being very consistent is important.  If you get to your max charge and accuracy is still not there you can play with COAL and see what happens.  This is what works for me.

-------------
Some people are educated BEYOND their intelligence.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 08:41
Try this Julio, it works quite well and gets you there fast.  http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/# - http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 09:16
Its a rare powder that will not give good results at some wt. The problem is that there may be one out that gives the same results with higher velocity. Hunters are continually caught in this , as they feel the need. Usually its easier to just go to the next bigger caliber and load it back down. (but thats another story). More important is consistent cold bore first shot accuracy than grouping in hunting rifles. Most of the time this gets harder as you push the load up the ladder.


Posted By: Trays 7940
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 14:02
SuperTool... Great information. Now I have to head back to the drawing board.
The theory makes a lot of sense and I like being able to accout for the temperature changes, especialy in Texas.  Wake up and its 40  degrees... 75-80 by noon... 
Good stuff!  Bandito


-------------
http://militarysignatures.com" rel="nofollow">

I don't shoot innocent animals, just the one's who look guilty.


Posted By: JF4545
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 17:42
Thanks Jason,
I will study the information and try it out. I also want to buy this book by Ken Waters called "Pet Loads" as it may save me more time and energy...Dan Newberry mentions it in his info.
 
Thanks Again!
J.........


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 18:02
No prob.  I really like the OCW, it gets you in the ball park then you can start messing with seating depth and neck tension and other things to really tune it up.  

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 18:24
Ok, I've decided that when my package shows up tomorrow, I want to use the ocw method for finding out what she likes, but how do I know what powder to start with? I have 6 powders on hand that would work good for the caliber, but don't know which would work best. I would like to find a load quickly without blowing a lot of powder and especially bullets.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 18:30
Read this article (and don't let the title scare you, even though it says it's for long-range load development):  http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html - http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

You can modify the test for shorter ranges and I also bought Sharpie pens in more colors so I wouldn't have to do combinations of 2 colors like the author did. As far as powders and loads, sites like Hodgdon's will give you a decent idea of relative velocities for their lines of powder. My advice on powders is find what most people are using and start there. FOR EXAMPLE:  If loading 165 gr. bullets for .308 Win most shooters have had good results with Varget. I've gotten some better groups with Reloder 15 but the tradeoff was more temperature sensitivity and a dirtier barrel. Every rifle is different but you can start with 2-4 powders. I look for ones that provide mid-to-high velocities for the bullet and cartridge. I didn't do that when starting out and bought a bunch of IMR 3031 before realizing that it was too fast for my 20" barrel and heavier bullets. A perfectly fine powder in the right applications but I only use it now for 150-gr. plinking rounds.


-------------
Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 18:44
Really interesting information, thanks.

-------------
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/12/2009 at 19:28
Hey Julio
 
If I am starting to load for a new caliber or bullet, I always go to the Nosler manual and see what they are calling the "Most Accurate Powder Tested", look at the load densities and the velocity .  They list IMR4350 in that category and I would load the middle load and work up.
 
I have spent considerable time with the OCW and it is like reading tea leaves sometimes.  The most useful thing in that system is looking for the "scatter group" and staying away from it.
 
The quickest way to accuracy in any rifle is to get rid of the expanding ball dies which will lower your runout, learning to Partial Full Length Resize, controlling you seating depth variations and dealing with bullet grip and bullet release consistancy.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: JF4545
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 02:19
Hmm,
Ok I need to just relax and know that this is going to be a lifetime process as I suspected..Thats ok, I have plenty of time and one needs to enjoy every moment of what they are doing, no matter what....Myself I get to  hung up on the outcomes...
 
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 08:19
I normally start off by deciding what muzzle velocity I want or need. No good having a 300 H&H magnum and pushing rounds at a 308Win velocities!
I then load up according to the manuals load recommendation to give me this velocity. I also load sets of 3 rounds in 1/2 grain increments up to maximum safe load.
Then I go shoot, pick the load with the best grouping and then tinker with OAL for max accuracy.
This way I get a load with decent velocities for the caliber.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 10:03
one missing item here-- what level are your reloading skills, making a decision on the data from trial and error makes shooting a reloading hobby not a shooting hobby. Which one do you want to do. Reloading to the level of your shooting needs is the trick. Usually is about 90% insight gained from stacks and stacks of spent primers.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 10:07
Dale, some very wise words. It has taken me several years to figure that one out!


Posted By: JF4545
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 13:40
Yes, Im beginning to hear that also. Thats why I said this is going to be a lifetime affair for me as Im almost 53 and Im just starting to reload. I did a little bit of reloading back in the 80's but I really learned nothing....So Im starting from scratch, this year I bought everything a reloader will ever need.. WELL ,,,,Im sure there are some things I may need still but Ive got all the primary equipment and powders...We made up a load for my sons 7mm mag. that shoots under an inch at 200 yards.. I think we just got lucky on that one. We went up in 1 grain increments.. But now after reading these posts we will go up in 1/2 increments. My son does all the shooting/testing as he can handle recoil and I cannot. I flinch still and beside my neck and head are pretty damaged......   


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 17:06
At what point should a person start looking at seating depths? I started with the OCW system  on my .300 wby (Silvia) and have found an area where the groups seem to hit the same general area. I must say that I wasn't really impressed with the size of any of the groups, but according to the ocw system, I'm not really looking for group size. My best group measured 1.31" out of 7 charge weights that were .5 gr. apart. This group is where the ocw groups kind of took place as well. How much should one to expect to be able to gain by changing seating depths? These groups are too big for me to consider making my long range hunting load. They are plenty fast, but I'd rather have the accuracy. Should I try a different powder first, or try tweaking this load and see if it tightens up?

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 19:34
Hey Trigger, do you have enough magazine length to be able to try seating out further?  It wouldn't do you much good to seat out further if the cartridge won't fit in the magazine.
 
I would try a different bullet, powder or primer (in that order) to try and get your group size down.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 19:39
I seated them .100 short of magazine lenght to give myself room to go either way. The magazine in this thing is HUGE. I measured a round that just fit in there at almost 3.800".

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:03
But how close are you to the lands?  The only 300 Wtby I reload for, the bullet has to be seated .275" from the lands in order to fit the magazine.  IMO (and I don't know this for a fact, just an impression) the further you are from the lands the less changes in seating depth will have on group size.  IOW, if you are seating your bullets .275" from the lands, changing the seating depth by .050" will not have as much effect as changing the seating depth from .025" to .035" off the lands. 
 
The old adage is that if you are getting flyers seat deeper and if you have a consistant group size but too large, seat closer.  But this is generally considered when you are talking about .050" or less


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:08
I have the standard weatherby freebore, so I should me somewhere in the neighborhood of a mile or so from the lands. The only way I could seat to the lands that I've found so far is with a 200 gr. accubond seated WAY out. There is no way I can even get close and have them fit in the magazine.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:20
Then, IMO, you should look to other avenues besides seating depth to significantly reduce groups size.  But, nothing is written in stone, every rifle is an individual.
 
Is your action bedded?
 
What load are you shooting?


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:22
Shooting 180gr. Sierra gameking on top of 85.2 gr. IMR 7828ssc in a Wby case. Winchester wlrm primer. Velocity is running about 3175.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:28
Man!  That ought to be a great load!
 
Can you post pics of your ladder work up?
 
Do you have any Fed215 primers? (I could send you some)
 
Does your rifle have a pressure point on the tip of the forearm?


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:33
I'll see if I can get the targets rounded up, and put on here somewhere. I do have some Fed 215's. Rifle is  Weatherby accumark. Factory pillar bedded with aluminum bedding block. #3 contour fluted barrel. Floated.
 
I may have had an error in the bottom part of my OCW development, but the upper end loads were ok. This is where I ended up seeing some potential, so I kept those targets.


-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:51
In my workup, it seemed odd to me that some charge weights hit much higher, lower, or left, or right than the others. It seems to me that there shouldn't be a huge shift in the point of impact, but I'm still learning about all this reloading stuff.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 21:13
There will be a difference in POI with the different loads.  If nothing else, as your velocity increases your group should move up on the target.  Not too noticeable at 100 yards but very noticeable at long range.  That is the reason that an Audette climbs up the target, the increase in velocity.
 
It is all about barrel timing.  Bullets leaving the muzzle microseconds after others are going to hit in a slightly different place.  Seating depth, variations in bullet grip, case capacity, charge weight variations and velocity will affect your barrel timing.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 21:21
Ok, here is what I have left of the workup.
Starting with 84.5 gr. This group I think got mixed up with a round from a different lot or something. Either that or something made it a HUGe flyer. The third hole is the one straight down. Not really sure what happened there.
85.0 gr. Unfortunately, I wasn't very centered on the target, but once I started, I didn't want to make an adjustment, and mess myself up.
85.5
I then repeated the test with 85.2 85.5, and 85.7 to see if one way or another improved things. I adjusted the scope to hit the correct target too! I seem to be missing the 85.7, but one hole was on either side of the aiming dot, and the other one flew way high, and right. Not really sure what caused it. The other two didn't show huge promise.
85.2
85.5
 
Any ideas? I like this load, but it needs to shoot much better.


-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:13
Not too terrible.
 
Do you neck size with the Lee Collet Neck Sizer?  That die can make an improvement in accuracy and they are economical.
 
I would try some loads with the Fed215's and see but I would start back down at 84 grains since 84.5 gr is the listed max in the Nosler #5 manual and the Fed215 may slightly increase pressure.  That would be the first change and it might do the trick.  Then you could try another bullet, Nosler Ballistic Tips are inexpensive and generally very accurate.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:14
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

There will be a difference in POI with the different loads.  If nothing else, as your velocity increases your group should move up on the target.  Not too noticeable at 100 yards but very noticeable at long range.  That is the reason that an Audette climbs up the target, the increase in velocity.
 
It is all about barrel timing.  Bullets leaving the muzzle microseconds after others are going to hit in a slightly different place.  Seating depth, variations in bullet grip, case capacity, charge weight variations and velocity will affect your barrel timing.
concerning reloading-- in pistols faster loads shoot lower, as the recoil has less time to act on the barrel


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:26
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Not too terrible.
 
Do you neck size with the Lee Collet Neck Sizer?  That die can make an improvement in accuracy and they are economical.
 
I would try some loads with the Fed215's and see but I would start back down at 84 grains since 84.5 gr is the listed max in the Nosler #5 manual and the Fed215 may slightly increase pressure.  That would be the first change and it might do the trick.  Then you could try another bullet, Nosler Ballistic Tips are inexpensive and generally very accurate.
I used the collet neck sizer for these. They were full lenght sized in the redding body die though. Haven't tried them fireformed yet. I will try backing down, and trying the fed. primers. I have a lee factory crimp die also, but thought I'd try to see how they shoot without crimping them, and then see if crimping helps. The groups are not TERRIBLE, but I'm not satisfied either.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:39
So these were new cases?  Everything changes with once fired as compared to new cases.

-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:41
They were once fired cases from factory loads that I bought off gunbroker. Therefore I full lenght sized them, in the redding body die, and neck sized them with the lee collet.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:45
Then you will probably get a change if you just neck size them.  As long as the unsized fire formed case is easy to chamber, then just neck size them with the Lee Collet.  It should take a couple of firings before they become tight in the chamber and you have to use the Body Die.
 
That along with the Fed215's will cause enough of a change that the groups may improve.  They might get worse but chances are they will get slightly better.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 22:50

Sweet! I don't need them to be in one hole, but I would like to improve them some. I'm wondering if I should put a light crimp on them too. I think I'll try some just neck sized, and  some with the federal primer. I want to do those seperate, in case one works and one doesn't. Then I might try a set with a light crimp on them.



-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net