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Schimdt & Bender Summit

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=19305
Printed Date: October/20/2018 at 21:19
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Topic: Schimdt & Bender Summit
Posted By: OLI62
Subject: Schimdt & Bender Summit
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 17:12
Anybody know when this scope will be available? Anybody gotten a chance to handle one?



Replies:
Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 17:31
I saw one at an outdoor show in January.  It looked impressive to me, what you'd expect from S&B...as best I could tell inside a building.
 
I would think they are available now, though I haven't searched for them so I'm not sure.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 17:36

They have 1" tubes, Ted?



Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 19:32
I wonder why the top European brands come out with these 1" scopes with 2nd focal plane reticles and say they are for Americans...it's not hard to understand that Americans buy those type of scopes because they have been so readily available and affordable.  Not necessarily because they prefer the type over the others...
 
Is there a large group of American hunters who would choose 1" scopes over 30mm scopes if they were the same price? 
 
I'm sure people who own Burris scopes with Ballistic Plex reticles and Nikon's with BDC all wish their scope was FFP.
 
I understand the majority reasoning of European hunting=night time still hunting and American hunting=stalking and stand hunting...but it seems silly to think Americans just want lighter scopes in blindness of better mouse-traps.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 19:41
Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

I wonder why the top European brands come out with these 1" scopes with 2nd focal plane reticles and say they are for Americans...it's not hard to understand that Americans buy those type of scopes because they have been so readily available and affordable.  Not necessarily because they prefer the type over the others...
 
Is there a large group of American hunters who would choose 1" scopes over 30mm scopes if they were the same price? 
 
I'm sure people who own Burris scopes with Ballistic Plex reticles and Nikon's with BDC all wish their scope was FFP.
 
I understand the majority reasoning of European hunting=night time still hunting and American hunting=stalking and stand hunting...but it seems silly to think Americans just want lighter scopes in blindness of better mouse-traps.

A lot of people really seem to prefer SFP scopes for hunting, so I can see why S&B would want to make some for US market.  I saw these scopes at SHOT earlier this year and they seemed quite good.

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 20:28
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

They have 1" tubes, Ted?



Yep.  The only model at present is a 2.5-10X40.


www.schmidtbender.com/images/downloads/Summit2.5_10x40.pdf
- %3cspan%20class= -

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: September/17/2009 at 20:32
I am in line to get a review copy ASAP, but evidently there have been delays. Which happens....


Posted By: brodeur272
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 10:40
Anyone know what a price tag is supposed to be for one of these?


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 11:18
Only can find 2 stores with a price of $1,499 at both of them....
 
Sad
 
The Rolex of 3-9x40 scopes?  Maybe it has auto parallax adjustment and locks on to a target.


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 13:24
By the way if I had plenty of money I would consider them too, I just like to kid around. 
 
Might as well spend your money on your passion since life is short and our passions in life is what makes it even worth living.  If I was the type of fella who had $1,500 a month or more left each month after bills and necessities are taken care of, wouldn't hessitate to look at Zeiss Diavari, Schmidt Bender any thing, Swarovski Z6, etc.


Posted By: OLI62
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 10:10
Any word on these yet? S & B's web site state's they've arrived just in time for hunting season and I've yet to see the first review anywhere.


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 10:20
Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

I'm sure people who own Burris scopes with Ballistic Plex reticles and Nikon's with BDC all wish their scope was FFP.
 
The ballistic reticles wouldn't be functional in a FFP scope in most cases.  The subtentions need to be "tuned" by the power ring to get them to match the trajectory of the particular load (as well as elevation, temperature, etc.).  In a FFP ballistic reticle scope, the load would need to be tuned to the reticle.  FFP is a great option for reticles that need consistent subtensions, like a ranging reticle (mil-dot, tmr, etc.)
 
I think scope makers would be well-served by making FFP scopes in ranging reticles and SFP scopes in ballistic reticles.


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-Matt


Posted By: brodeur272
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 10:44
Bitterroot, I agree on a FFP with ranging marks on them.  I use the illuminated xhairs on my FFPs.  Unfortunately, I haven't had any shots that are past 100 yds to check them out other than on paper.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 10:59

a lot of it has to do with the continued success of the zeiss conquest. this 1" scope and its good prices still get good reviews. I don't think they will sell if the price gets much over 1K however.

ballistic reticles work on ffp they just come out in odd integer yardages. any ffp reticle can be set up for any cartridge, if you have a ballistic program. (or want to shoot and measure).
with the advent of rangefinders the need for a ranging reticle grows less each day.
 
not sure how an ffp is a better mousetrap--- I'd take light and compact any day.


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 13:19
I disagree Bitterroot.  You are correct it's much more difficult to get a reticle and a load to match up well with FFP (same as with a fixed power scope) but in my opinion it's well worth it in the field.  Having to set the scope to a certain power in order to "use" the reticle can be a disadvantage.   Different strokes I guess.


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 14:10
Well, I didn't mean to start an argument Wink.
 
I stand corrected:  You certainly can use a FFP holdover reticle, with unusual holdover distances, or developing a load that matches the set subtensions.
 
However, to utilize a reticle with marked  distance references, like the Rapid Z, it sure is convenient to adjust the subtensions with the power ring.  I haven't found it to be disadvantagous to set the power ring in the field. 
 
I find holdover reticles more versatile in the SFP.  For instance, I have two slightly different witness marks on my Conquest's power ring for two different elevation/temperatures that I use the same rifle and load to hunt.  If you develop a load that matches a FFP reticle, you are restricted not only to that load, but that elevation, temperature, etc.
 
The reticle doesn't preclude you from using the full power range of your scope, it just means you have to adjust it to the correct position to make an extended range shot. 
 
The bottom line is, Jon, you're right:  What works with you and your hunting is what you should have.
 
Cheers,


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-Matt


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: October/28/2009 at 14:35
I think they will both get the job done with good brains using the equipment.  I'm guessing there are still plenty of wounded animals out there by people who don't understand ballistics among other things.
 
Imagine the guys who don't know their 30-06 180gr. ammo with advertised velocity of 2700fps. actually does 2630fps at times and 2740fps at others.  If the reticle works correctly at 100, 200, and 300 yards then 400 and 500 are a given...which we know isn't correct.  They will double check with a ballistics calculator or supplied factory ballistic drop numbers which are 99% incorrect using G1 b.c. numbers and inflated numbers at that.
 
 


-------------
"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: November/14/2009 at 19:11
Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

Well, I didn't mean to start an argument Wink

Hey, nobody's arguing.   It's called "discussing."    Big Smile    I think such discussions are a good thing--it's always good to hear how different people do things and why they do them.  And since there's usually more than one way to skin a cat, hearing the pros/cons of both ways help readers make a more informed choice on what they feel will fit them best.  Anyway, for more explanation of why I like FFP for this use:  
 
Quote However, to utilize a reticle with marked  distance references, like the Rapid Z, it sure is convenient to adjust the subtensions with the power ring. 


Yes, there's no doubt being able to do that will allow a decent fit of more reticles to more loads so it is more convenient, or adaptable you might say.  Of course the most convenient method doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.      Wink

Quote I haven't found it to be disadvantagous to set the power ring in the field.


Well, I have.  There are several disadvantages that come with it.  Let me list a few....

If you need to accurately align marks, you need to be out of the shooting position, above the rifle looking down at the scope (with some possible exceptions like the Vortex Viper).  So you either need to get out of position when you decide you're going to use the reticle, or decide to put the scope there before you get into position.  Not only does this take time, it requires you to take your eyes off the animal.

Old habits die hard. For too many years I've been in the habit of carrying the scope on a low power, then when an animal is spotted at a good distance cranking up the power ring without looking at the rifle, without looking at the scope, without taking my eyes off the animal as I flop into position (be it sitting or prone or whatever).  It takes virtually no time and I never take my eyes off the animal.  Anything else would be a compromise.

Now there is a way around that using a SFP and I and many others have done this--pick a reticle that fits the load when the scope is on the max power.  Naturally, that brings all the same difficulty of matching the reticle and load as FFP.  But it does allow you to quickly twist the power ring until it stops without looking at it.

More problems arise when using higher powered scopes.  Now all the various reasons some may or may not like to use higher powered scopes could be long debated in a separate thread, but as it pertains to this subject if you like to use them it brings more problems.  While not much of a problem up to about 10X (pretty much any shot far enough you'd want to use a reticle 10X is plenty usable), if the reticle is calibrated for much over that it can be. 

Sometimes you really don't want the scope cranked all the way up.  In low light conditions, especially if the scope has a small objective, it may give a really dim view and be difficult to use. 

If you get into position while the animal is moving or milling about especially amongst a bunch of others, a small FOV can make it difficult to locate it quickly.

Most higher powered scopes will have adjustable parallax, the most common being of the side-focus variety.  The degree depends upon the brand, but most of these have a shorter depth of focus at the high powers.  So while you can carry one around on 6X for example and simply point and shoot with the FFP, if you need to crank up the power before you use the reticle there's a good chance things will go all blurry on you.  So now not only do you need to adjust the power ring to the right spot but you may need to focus on the target.  With an identical FFP scope carried around on low power you can simply point and shoot, or if you have time and the disance is far, you can crank up the power and focus without taking your eye out of the scope.
 
Quote For instance, I have two slightly different witness marks on my Conquest's power ring for two different elevation/temperatures that I use the same rifle and load to hunt.  If you develop a load that matches a FFP reticle, you are restricted not only to that load, but that elevation, temperature, etc.


It's not quite that simple.  While you can compensate somewhat, the reticle will not accurately fit both any more than a FFP will.  Drastic  changes in conditions (such as hunting at low elevation then hunting at very high elevation) changes the shape of your trajectory curve with respect to distance--it's not proportional.  The reticle can't match both.  For example, if you have an 800 yd reticle matched perfectly at low elevation, when you go to high elevation your 800 yd line will be dramatically off while your 300 yd line will be nearly unchanged.  So if you adjust the power ring to put the 800 yd line back on, your midrange lines will be off.  You need to make a best fit compromise.  With a FFP you'd simply adjust the zero a couple of clicks and end up with much the same best fit compromise.

The only way to accurately match dramatically different conditions (or different loads for that matter) is a reticle where you're holding the exact correction the same as if you dialed it on the turret.  Of course those reticles are the most versatile and accurate, but I don't feel they're as fast for medium ranges.

Anyway, like you said, one is best suited using what works for him and we all have our own likes/dislikes.  But hopefully my explanation will give people a better idea of why I like what I do.


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: November/14/2009 at 21:42
thanks for the good post Smile

-------------
"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."



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