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Giant scopes? (60mm obj and more) who's tried em?

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=18137
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Topic: Giant scopes? (60mm obj and more) who's tried em?
Posted By: spystyle
Subject: Giant scopes? (60mm obj and more) who's tried em?
Date Posted: July/11/2009 at 16:59
Hello from Maine,

Oh the curiosity of a huge "exit eye pupil" has got me!

(To discover exit eye pupil : divide the objective lens by the power, for example 4x32 scope has an exit eye pupil of "8" which is great)

I recently saw 6-24x60 scope and I've seen ATN has some 80mm objective scopes, I'm curious if anyone has tried any of these giant scopes and liked them?

Of course a cheek riser is in order, I realize that.

I'd like to see a benchrest scope designed that uses a mirror inside and has a Z shape, kinda like this but up-side-down :



...so the ocular lens can be the same height as it would normally be on a scope with 40mm objective, but maybe the objective lens could be really big like 300mm with a variable zoom like from 2x to 40x - while a scope like that would be silly for lugging around in the woods I think it would appeal to the benchrest guys very much, not to mention the railgun guys.

I don't see any big innovations in riflescopes really ... They kinda still look the same as they did in 1950 from a distance ...

I have the idea that a manufacturer of both rifle scopes and spotting scopes would have an easy time modifying their spotting scope line to also make giant benchrest scopes - I ran my idea passed a Chinese manufacturer via e-mail (or maybe just a Chinese secretary?) and they didn't go for it :(

So have any of you guys tried any really big scopes?

Thanks,
Craig



Replies:
Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: July/11/2009 at 18:31
I had an ATN 6-18x65 for a number of years.  I REALLY liked it, but it was on a rifle my wife took away from me  uses when I let her.  She needed a ligher scope, so I put a Zeiss Diavari 2.5-10x42 on it.  A word about the ATN, I went through 6 (SIX) before I got one that worked right.  Once I got that one, it was great in low light, BDC was as good as any I have used (to 500yds), illuminated reticle was great, rangefinding was dead on.  I don't recommend ATN, unless you are willing to spend several months going back and forth to get one that works as advertised.  It went through several hundred rounds on the German Voere Titan II 30-06 and performed very well.  It is HEAVY, but mounted on the Monte Carlo style stock of the Voere, I had no problems and did not need a "cheekpiece".  Neither did my wife.  She shot it more than I did, but only because I let her.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/11/2009 at 19:32
Thanks for the warning and review Kickboxer, I keep reading that ATN is garbage - it seems like Ukraine is not renown for quality control these days ("Kiev" cameras are also said to be avoided)

But 6-18x65, I bet the scope @ 6X was very bright with it's "exit eye pupil" of more than 10 :)

We need more giant scopes :)

http://www.chinabestsuppliers.com/Demo_eshowProDetail.asp?ProID=1502 -



Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 15:06
Zeiss makes a 72mm objective scope (Diavari 6-24X72), that is a monster both in terms of physical size and price.  I'm sure it's fantastic optically, but at nearly $4K, I'm not likely to find out.  Plus, my own self-imposed upper limit for objective size is 50mm.  I simply don't want a scope mounted any taller than that off the receiver of a rifle, and I don't like when the objective bell of a scope is wider than the forend of the rifle it's sitting on.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 15:35
I agree it's no good to have the ocular lens higher than a 32mm objective scope would normally be - but with a mirror inside and a "Z shape" the ocular can be low while the objective is high.

Yes I'd like to see a marriage between telescope and rifle scope :)


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 15:49
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

I agree it's no good to have the ocular lens higher than a 32mm objective scope would normally be - but with a mirror inside and a "Z shape" the ocular can be low while the objective is high.

Yes I'd like to see a marriage between telescope and rifle scope :)


Yes, but man, that would be a bulky, awkward beast that would make the rifle unbalanced.  Plus, if you've seen how the innards of a rifle scope works, the Z-shape would probably create problems for making a functional erector assy and zoom tube.  Also, adding porro prisms to bend the light around the dogleg would add a lot of extra weight and cost for very little return benefit.  The advantage you gain from the additional light from the larger objective is partially offset by the light loss from the extra glass from the prisms.  A spotting scope uses prisms to rotate the image so it is oriented "right side up" to your eyes as well as adapt to the eyepiece angle.  A rifle scope does the same with the erector assy, but the erector assy is also necessary to move the reticle to change POI, whereas a spotting scope doesn't have those extra lenses in front of the prisms to further reduce light transmission.  Even though extra lenses in an optic can correct for optical aberrations, producing better image quality, all else being equal, the more glass in the optic, the greater the light transmission loss.




-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 15:55
Yeah it's a pipe dream :)

However, I'm learning what giant straight body scopes exists, like Zeiss and ATN, unfortunately they are expensive. It seems like 56mm and 60mm are the limit within affordable models ( http://www.chinabestsuppliers.com/Demo_eshowProDetail.asp?ProID=1502 - China ) :)

Have fun!
Craig


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 16:14
It's a mistake to get too hung up on giant objective scopes.  A cheap scope with a large objective lens will probably not perform as well as a smaller objective on a high end scope.  The higher end scope will have better optical design, more precisely ground lenses, and far better lens coatings optimized for low light performance.  Exit pupil by itself doesn't tell the whole story.  Contrast, resolution, and excellent light transmission in the blue spectrum are at least as important to low light performance as exit pupil.  Most of the "affordable" (which I interpret as "cheap") Chinese scopes with large objectives are gimmicks that won't provide any useful benefit in low light vs. a decent 42mm scope.

Plus, the usefulness of a large objective depends on the magnification used.  Unless you plan to routinely use more than 8X, an objective larger than 56mm won't provide any benefit.  Your eye can use a max exit pupil of 5-7mm depending on your age and eyesight.  An exit pupil larger than that won't be noticed because your eye is constricting the amount of light exiting the optic. 

If I were you and was looking for the best low light scope I could get, I would choose a really good 2.5-10X50 or maybe 3-12X56.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 16:47
Well said, I'm sure good small glass beats big cheap glass.

However there must be a point that crazy large exceeds even good glass, like a 400mm objective :) I'd like to try that!

Oh we'll never know :(

Anyway, happy shooting :)
Craig


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 16:57
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:


However there must be a point that crazy large exceeds even good glass,


Yes, on a high magnification scope where you can really use more than 10X in low light (small targets and long range).  But, "crazy large" by itself could mean that it just amplifies optical aberrations (since super large objectives almost always come with more magnification), which would be a step backwards.  To be really useful, a huge objective scope would have to be very well made, which means it would be very expensive... i.e., the Zeiss 6-24X72.

You can't get something for nothing.  Everything is a tradeoff.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 17:05
Thought provoking ...

Still I wonder if they took a different approach like a reflector telescope uses if they could make a really big scope for benchrest shooters that trumps the little hunting scopes ... There simply must be more ways to skin the proverbial cat :)





Posted By: HuntMaster
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 19:38
To answer your question, yes, there can be an advantage to using an ultra-large diameter objective scope in low light. But this only applies to better quality lenses.
 I have a 3-9x60 German scope which is only marginally better than my 56mm.It will probably be the only 60 I will own because there is not enough difference to justify the added cost( about $200). The 56 is a bit better than that next to a 50mm, but is great enough to justify the cost difference in my opinion( only about $75).
 As stated above, Zeiss makes a 72mm which should be a great scope- but expensive.
The Germans make these scopes for a reason ( usually hog hunting from elevated stands at night), yet the Japanese and Chinese only do it to mimic the Germans. In previous posts this has been covered.A giant el-cheapo will not compare to even a 32mm premium scope.
 I personally like 50-56mm scopes, but, the only advantage they have is their performance when the moon and stars come out. If you hunt only during legal hunting hours ( I'm speaking of say Whitetails in Al.) which is generally 30 minutes before sunrise - 30min after sunset, then any 40-44 mm objective PREMIUM scope will be just fine, and Chris has plenty of these in stock.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 20:40
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

Well said, I'm sure good small glass beats big cheap glass.

However there must be a point that crazy large exceeds even good glass, like a 400mm objective :) I'd like to try that!

Oh we'll never know :(

Anyway, happy shooting :)
Craig

That statement (in bold above)  is wrong in principle.  

As a practical matter, the larger the objective lens, the harder it is to make it good.

There is some allowance for exit pupil sizes, obviously, but beyond that, the larer the scope the better the optics have to be to make it good.

For example, smaller ATN scopes, while still crap, are much more serviceable crap than larger ATN scopes.

ILya


-------------
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Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 20:47
I agree with all of you smart fellas, no doubt you are full of the right stuff :) No sarcasm either! Hats off to you gents.

But I have this idea - when I see railguns and bizarre "bench-rest-only" rigs I think the guns are so wacky and purpose-built yet their optics are not wacky or in-keeping with their innovations, still just "hunting optics" that are similar to what we had 50 years ago.

I think a new innovation in scope design should be invented for these types of guns. I think we can design outside-of-the-box because said rigs live on a bench so their scopes don't necessarily need to have the limitations of hunting optics.

Yeah I have this idea about giant scopes that don't need to be designed within the dimensional limitations of a hunting optic.

I'd like to see some funky scopes I tell ya! It's a screwy idea I can't shake it ...

Somebody slap me!

Anyway I will finally have time to go to the range tomorrow, maybe some trigger time will get this silly idea out of my noggin :)

Happy shooting :)
Craig




Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 21:20
So, what is your idea for a "benchrest only" scope?

ILya


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Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/12/2009 at 23:26
Brick HitI looked for slap but this seemed to work too. Big Grin
 
 
 
I'm just wondering when we are going to see video camera electronic ultra high zoom capable scopes with a memory chip to record your hunt. I mean seriously look what happened to the great glass traditional film cameras POOF - worthless over night. Some of these companies like Nikon are well positioned to put out one of these.  I saw some chinese military photos where they had a monitor mounted on the rifle and the viewer on the helment.  Pretty sure we have something very hush hush too but if we dont we are way behind.


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/13/2009 at 00:17
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Brick HitI looked for slap but this seemed to work too. Big Grin
 
 
 
I'm just wondering when we are going to see video camera electronic ultra high zoom capable scopes with a memory chip to record your hunt. I mean seriously look what happened to the great glass traditional film cameras POOF - worthless over night. Some of these companies like Nikon are well positioned to put out one of these.  I saw some chinese military photos where they had a monitor mounted on the rifle and the viewer on the helment.  Pretty sure we have something very hush hush too but if we dont we are way behind.

How about Elcan Digital Hunter?


-------------
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Posted By: Randall45
Date Posted: July/13/2009 at 09:33
The cheapest scope I owned that was 56mm was a 3-9x56 Bushnell Banner that I bought back in the early 90's that was made in Japan.I had it mounted on a PolyTech M-14 308 Win.The scope was cheap $270.00 when compared to my Redfield Ultimate Illuminator 3-9x56 which cost over $600.00.My honest opinion is the scopes were clear and did give a few extra minutes before sunrise.I only own (1) ATN scope as a back up for my flat top AR-15,it works but the optics are not that good on the larger bell scopes, stick with the straight 5 power which has a BDC for the 223, it's the only ATN that works.A Zeiss Conquest or Docter Optik are very good scopes that are available with the 56mm objective.I also would consider the Weaver Classic Extreme 2.5-10x56 illuminated dot much cheaper than the ATN and better quality better optics. 


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: October/31/2010 at 16:08
LOL I found my old post on accident from a Google search :)

I have a big Millet scope on a little 22lr rifle, I get a kick out of that. I still like the big scopes.

Did I ever post the link to the crazy rail guns ?

http://www.benchrest.com/youngrails/ - http://www.benchrest.com/youngrails/

A crazy gun like that deserves a crazy optic :)

OK have fun!
Craig


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: October/31/2010 at 17:06
OK here's a pic of my big scope :)

http://postimage.org/image/20v8xn29w/">

Savage Mark II 22lr rifle, with Millett Buck Gold 6-25x56mm scope, and ATI featherweight bipod

And my daughter likes a little 1x28 red dot scope on her Marlin model 60 :)

http://postimage.org/image/26e4aeq4k/">

So we don't all use giant scopes, only me LOL




Posted By: dsr
Date Posted: October/31/2010 at 20:45
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

So, what is your idea for a "benchrest only" scope?

ILya

Ok, since the subject has been broached (flights of fancy) how about a question for Koshkin.  Does the physics of spotting scopes allow the design of an eyepiece with long eye relief that would contain a fixed reticle (all scope adjustments would be external).  Of all the rifle scopes that I have looked through (ranging from Zeiss Victory to barging basement scopes) none are as good as a quality spotting scope (ie Leica or Zeiss Diascope).  The Zeiss Victory Diavari rifles scopes comes very close or is as good as a good quality spotting scope but I have never been able to have both together for side by side comparison.

Thanks,
dsr


Posted By: Magnumdood
Date Posted: October/31/2010 at 22:59

I’m running a Hensoldt 6-24x72 on my 30-378 Improved.  To put it simply; WOW.   I hog & coyote hunt at night, and to improve on this you’d need NV on a completely overcast night.  I don’t think NV will outclass this scope if there is ANY ambient light.



-------------
America - Home of the Free

               Because of the Brave


Posted By: dhdoyle
Date Posted: November/01/2010 at 17:41
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:


I'd like to see a benchrest scope designed that uses a mirror inside and has a Z shape, kinda like this but up-side-down :

The army has used this idea for their sniper night sights, but that's the only place I've seen it used. This is the AN/PVS-10:

I'm not sure how many folks would appreciate the weight of a spotting scope on top of their rifle.



Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: November/01/2010 at 18:21
I want one of those :)

or a copy :)

But I think that style of scope would work well with the bench-rest shooters, especially ones with rail gun rests.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: November/01/2010 at 18:30
Originally posted by dsr dsr wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

So, what is your idea for a "benchrest only" scope?

ILya

Ok, since the subject has been broached (flights of fancy) how about a question for Koshkin.  Does the physics of spotting scopes allow the design of an eyepiece with long eye relief that would contain a fixed reticle (all scope adjustments would be external).  Of all the rifle scopes that I have looked through (ranging from Zeiss Victory to barging basement scopes) none are as good as a quality spotting scope (ie Leica or Zeiss Diascope).  The Zeiss Victory Diavari rifles scopes comes very close or is as good as a good quality spotting scope but I have never been able to have both together for side by side comparison.

Thanks,
dsr

There is nothing particularly different about the physics of a spotting scope compared to that of a riflescope.  However, one of the reasons you see better through a spotter, than through a riflescope is exactly the thing you are trying to eliminate: short eyerelief.

With the eye so close to the eyepiece, it occupies a much greater solid angle.  Hence, other light does not enter the eye and your brain can get a lot more detail from the image.

ILya


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Posted By: dhdoyle
Date Posted: November/01/2010 at 21:55
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

With the eye so close to the eyepiece, it occupies a much greater solid angle.


ILya,
Thankyew! Your description is exactly correct, of course. The engineer in me loves it when you talk nasty!
Shocked


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: November/02/2010 at 06:34
The Russians have those rubber eye pieces to occupy the space of the eye relief. Remember those ?


Posted By: dsr
Date Posted: November/02/2010 at 08:52

Koshkin,

Thanks, I understand the solid angle (steradian), now that you point it out and never considered that I was somewhat comparing apples and oranges and ended up being too critical on the rifle scopes performances. 

I would like to rephrase the question about the general physics of spotting scopes (scopes that are in production), is possible to make an eyepiece with long eye relief that contains a reticle? If it is possible would the reticle be first or second plane focused.  I understand that without details it might be impossible to say if it is possible and your explanation in the previous post points out the disadvantages of such a setup.  Now I am just curious.

Thanks,

dsr


Posted By: dsr
Date Posted: November/02/2010 at 09:11
Originally posted by Magnumdood Magnumdood wrote:

I’m running a Hensoldt 6-24x72 on my 30-378 Improved.  To put it simply; WOW.   I hog & coyote hunt at night, and to improve on this you’d need NV on a completely overcast night.  I don’t think NV will outclass this scope if there is ANY ambient light.

 
Magnumdood,
 

That is the scope that that I am considering for my target rifle (hoping to get a small advantage on over cast days).  It is the most impressive scope that I have been able to look through (two short test viewing sessions) and it is reassuring to hear the scope lives up to its reputation.

Just one question, are you using any type of muzzle break?
 

Good hunting,

dsr


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: November/02/2010 at 12:59
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Brick HitI looked for slap but this seemed to work too. Big Grin
 
 
 
I'm just wondering when we are going to see video camera electronic ultra high zoom capable scopes with a memory chip to record your hunt. I mean seriously look what happened to the great glass traditional film cameras POOF - worthless over night. Some of these companies like Nikon are well positioned to put out one of these.  I saw some chinese military photos where they had a monitor mounted on the rifle and the viewer on the helment.  Pretty sure we have something very hush hush too but if we dont we are way behind.

How about Elcan Digital Hunter?

I have been trying to "review" one of those for quite some time... Still waiting.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rich Coyle
Date Posted: November/04/2010 at 20:44
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

Well said, I'm sure good small glass beats big cheap glass.

However there must be a point that crazy large exceeds even good glass, like a 400mm objective :) I'd like to try that!

Oh we'll never know :(

Anyway, happy shooting :)
Craig
 
One of my early posts at this site showed the difference in ability to read the words "THIS SIDE OUT" on my pump house 127 yards away from the porch.  Just in case you missed it I'll give the condenced version.  I compared my Minox 13X56, 4 1/2-30X50, and 12-42X56 NightForce with all set on 13X.  I was comparing them after sunset.  When I could no longer read the words, but had to try to make out letters, I called the time.  Minox quit at 6:42.  Bushnell quit at 6:44 and the NighghtForce quit at 7PM!  When I turned the power ring on the Bushnell up to 18X I could read the words again.  During the day no one can tell any difference between the Busnell and the NightForce.


-------------
Jesus died for our sins. Now He's alive!


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: November/04/2010 at 21:30
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I had an ATN 6-18x65 for a number of years.  I REALLY liked it, but it was on a rifle my wife took away from me  uses when I let her.  She needed a ligher scope, so I put a Zeiss Diavari 2.5-10x42 on it.  A word about the ATN, I went through 6 (SIX) before I got one that worked right.  Once I got that one, it was great in low light, BDC was as good as any I have used (to 500yds), illuminated reticle was great, rangefinding was dead on.  I don't recommend ATN, unless you are willing to spend several months going back and forth to get one that works as advertised.  It went through several hundred rounds on the German Voere Titan II 30-06 and performed very well.  It is HEAVY, but mounted on the Monte Carlo style stock of the Voere, I had no problems and did not need a "cheekpiece".  Neither did my wife.  She shot it more than I did, but only because I let her.  
 
 
 
Alabama Tall Tale
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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