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1st loads using RE17 in my 270Win

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: The Range Report
Forum Description: Shooting results/targets, range conditions (Online data book)
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15410
Printed Date: December/10/2018 at 18:24


Topic: 1st loads using RE17 in my 270Win
Posted By: budperm
Subject: 1st loads using RE17 in my 270Win
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 17:13
Well I just got back from the range.  Excellent conditions. 42F 0-3 mph headwind and overcsast skies.  Had the range to myself.  Big Grin
 
I loaded up 6 rounds each using Remington brass, CCI 200 LR primers and 130gr Hornady Interbond bullets.
Powder used was Alliant RE17 52.0, 52.5, 53.0, 53.5gr.
 
I changed nothing on scope or gun.  Savage 110FP w/ Accu-trigger, Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10X40mm zeroed using 130gr Nosler BTs and 56gr H4831SC.
 
Warmed up firing last 9 rounds of Noslers. 
 
I then worked my way up the powder scale from 52grs NE17 to 53.5grs. 
I shot 6 round groups because I think it gives alot more info and better indication of grouping.  (I also was low on targets Clown)
 
As can be seen in following pix...
 
52grs seemed to group in pairs but overall scattered.
 
52.5grs pulled in noticably and was well centered to noslers sight in of scope.
 
53.0grs tightest grouping but trending high, all above the horizontal.
 
53.5grs (only 3 rnd grouping),  Noticably higher than rest grouping starting to scatter.
 
It appears from this that my gun likes 53grs +/- of RE17 for 130gr Interbond.
My next step in to load 6s of 52.4, 52.6, 52.8, 53.0 and 53.2grs and see what I see.
 
I am shooting off the bench using stacked bags on forestock and shouldering the butt.  I am still working on my form and breathing and PATIENCE.  This along with being new to reloading and using a scope.  I am quite happy with the results so far.  I have restricted myself to the 100yd range my 1st 3 trips to the range but think I might squeeze a few on the 200 and 300yd range next trip.
 
 
 
 


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson






Replies:
Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 17:42
What # is your trigger set at?  Did you adjust it?  I need to adjust mine on my 9317.

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take em!


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 18:44
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

What # is your trigger set at?  Did you adjust it?  I need to adjust mine on my 9317.
 
The info that came with my gun stated that it was factory set for 3#.  It is pretty light so I think that is accurate.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 19:42
I'd be happy with any and all, pretty decent groups.

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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 20:08
Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

I'd be happy with any and all, pretty decent groups.
 
Thanks Luc, I do what I can with what I got.  I think my stock is too short for me but can't afford to get  a custom.  If I had a wheelbarrel of money I'd you get a custom sized one or five heh heh heh Bandito
 
We have an abundace of groundhogs around here.  I want to work up a varmint load an offer my services to local farmers.  I find it amazing... groundhogs are too stupid to dodge cars but won't let a human within 100 yds.  Maybe doing that  would open some doors for deer hunting.   Most farmers don't want to let stranges hunt their land around here.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 20:20
Very nice Bud. I wish my wsm wasn't so picky. It either shoots tiny little groups, or all over the place so far. There doesn't seem to be any in between. Looks like your savage shot all of those pretty well. It's good to see groups from another new reloader. I figured if I did everything consistant, and weighed everything, and measured everything, they should just shoot great. I see now, that isn't always the case. Nice work.

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 20:24
Bud if yo stock be 2 shote geta slip on padd an pu it ofer wha u got an dat wil hep yall. I doood dis an et wrk 4me.    Wink

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Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 20:45
Did you see any pressure signs?  If not I would keep going up.  You might find that you gun likes it faster.  Also, do you have velocities on the loads?

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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 21:31
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Very nice Bud. I wish my wsm wasn't so picky. It either shoots tiny little groups, or all over the place so far. There doesn't seem to be any in between. Looks like your savage shot all of those pretty well. It's good to see groups from another new reloader. I figured if I did everything consistant, and weighed everything, and measured everything, they should just shoot great. I see now, that isn't always the case. Nice work.
Thanks Trigger!
Practice makes perfect... The problem we have is that there is too many variables (learning curves) at once.  I currently seperate brass by manu.  weight powder to within .02grains using digital scale.  I found the drop feeder to be totally inconsistant in its throws.  The balance type powder scale is very accurate but painfully slow.  I found a digital scale on eBay with .02grain resolution for $29.95 its capacity is 20 grams so it covers all loads I'll ever make.  I use the drop feeder to get close then a trickler to dial in the charge I want.
I currently set the bullets .015" off the lands.  Finally I only neck resize and find it takes a litte practice to get good repeatability there.  I find paying close attention during the bullet seating, to the level of seating resistance, as a good indication of proper and uniform neck sizing.  It is all touchy feely but that is one of the things I have always seemed to have a good aptitude for.  Accuracy is in the details.  Take your time reloading.  I usually reload 20 or so loads an evening.  Pay attention to every detail during reloading and it will return dividends! Big Grin


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 21:34
Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

Bud if yo stock be 2 shote geta slip on padd an pu it ofer wha u got an dat wil hep yall. I doood dis an et wrk 4me.    Wink
Smile LOL RL want ARE you doing with your good hand...instead of typing? 
I did add a recoil suppressor butt pad.  It added about 2 inches to stock length and helped alot with the long action kick.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 21:36
      Big Grin

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Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 21:52
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Did you see any pressure signs?  If not I would keep going up.  You might find that you gun likes it faster.  Also, do you have velocities on the loads?
 
No.  No signs of high pressure, but the definite walk up on POI on the 53 and 53.5gr loads concerned me.  I am going to remain conservative until I can get a Chrono to check velocities and stay below 53.5gr.  I sent an inquiry to Alliant for loading data using CCI 200 and 130gr interbonds as well as SSts.  I'll post their reply.  Currently all their data sites Speer bullets and Federal 210 primers for thr RE17 loads.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 21:57
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Did you see any pressure signs?  If not I would keep going up.  You might find that you gun likes it faster.  Also, do you have velocities on the loads?
 
No.  No signs of high pressure, but the definite walk up on POI on the 53 and 53.5gr loads concerned me.  I am going to remain conservative until I can get a Chrono to check velocities and stay below 53.5gr.  I sent an inquiry to Alliant for loading data using CCI 200 and 130gr interbonds as well as SSts.  I'll post their reply.  Currently all their data sites Speer bullets and Federal 210 primers for thr RE17 loads.


Your POI will be higher if you don't move the scope, because the bullet is moving faster and flying flatter.  As long as the group size is not expanding, I would keep going, but that is just me.  If you have no pressure signs, you are still in the safe range.  I have seen guns where the group shrinks with more velocity, but that is not always the case.  Up to you though.  I would be ok with any of those groups!  Good shooting! Thunbs Up


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/14/2009 at 23:54
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:


Your POI will be higher if you don't move the scope, because the bullet is moving faster and flying flatter.  As long as the group size is not expanding, I would keep going, but that is just me.  If you have no pressure signs, you are still in the safe range.  I have seen guns where the group shrinks with more velocity, but that is not always the case.  Up to you though.  I would be ok with any of those groups!  Good shooting! Thunbs Up
Yes POI should be higher.  It indicated to me that both 53.0 & 53.5gr RE17 loads had higher velocity than 59gr H4831SC loads I warmed up with.  (9 rounds that all stayed within 1/2" of zero elavation line on target) That tells me from the Hornady 7th Ed. book that I above 3000FPS with the RE17 loads above 53gr.  I don't have enough experience or feel to know how much rise to expect for a 100-200fps gain.  I think I will wait for the Chrono, don't want to eat a scope or bolt.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 12:55
 WHOA!
 Don't make the mistake of assuming that your P.O.I. will be higher on the target at 100 yards becase it's moving slightly faster; the opposite is more often true.
 
Here's why: the slower bullet is in the barrel a bit longer, and exits the bore after recoil has flipped the barrel upward a smidgeon higher. The effect is more pronounced in handguns, but occurs in long barrelled rifles as well.
 
Vibrating barrel harmonics also play a solid role.
 
It's not that it's shooting"flatter" ,(especially in relation to the line of bore), but it can seem so.
 Want to know how fast your bullets are flying? Get a chronograph!Wink
 * edited to note that I see that you ARE planning to get one.
 
 Good shooting, and keep an eye on those pressure signs!


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 17:56
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 WHOA!
 Don't make the mistake of assuming that your P.O.I. will be higher on the target at 100 yards becase it's moving slightly faster; the opposite is more often true.
 
Here's why: the slower bullet is in the barrel a bit longer, and exits the bore after recoil has flipped the barrel upward a smidgeon higher. The effect is more pronounced in handguns, but occurs in long barrelled rifles as well.
 
Vibrating barrel harmonics also play a solid role.
 
It's not that it's shooting"flatter" ,(especially in relation to the line of bore), but it can seem so.
 Want to know how fast your bullets are flying? Get a chronograph!Wink
 * edited to note that I see that you ARE planning to get one.
 
 Good shooting, and keep an eye on those pressure signs!
 
Thanks for the input Ronk!  Things don't always act like you think they act.  I've seen the barrel on a rifle during firing using super hi speed photography and the barrel actually looked like it rared back and spit the bullet out.  Regardless, the POI definitely walked up about 3/4" for each of the last  two 0.5gr increases in RE17.  The gun was zeroed using 56gr of H4831SC and I shot 9 rounds at 59gr of H4831SC before starting on the RE17 loads.  Even at 59grs of H4831SC I saw less than 0.5" walk-up.  59gr of 31SC shoulld have me around 2950fps Max max of 31SC is 62gr @ 3100fps.  I'll play it safe and wait till I get a Chrony before I load any hotter.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 18:05
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 WHOA!
 Don't make the mistake of assuming that your P.O.I. will be higher on the target at 100 yards becase it's moving slightly faster; the opposite is more often true.
 
Here's why: the slower bullet is in the barrel a bit longer, and exits the bore after recoil has flipped the barrel upward a smidgeon higher. The effect is more pronounced in handguns, but occurs in long barrelled rifles as well.
 
Vibrating barrel harmonics also play a solid role.
 
It's not that it's shooting"flatter" ,(especially in relation to the line of bore), but it can seem so.
 Want to know how fast your bullets are flying? Get a chronograph!Wink
 * edited to note that I see that you ARE planning to get one.
 
 Good shooting, and keep an eye on those pressure signs!
 
Thanks for the input Ronk!  Things don't always act like you think they act.  I've seen the barrel on a rifle during firing using super hi speed photography and the barrel actually looked like it rared back and spit the bullet out.  Regardless, the POI definitely walked up about 3/4" for each of the last  two 0.5gr increases in RE17.  The gun was zeroed using 56gr of H4831SC and I shot 9 rounds at 59gr of H4831SC before starting on the RE17 loads.  Even at 59grs of H4831SC I saw less than 0.5" walk-up.  59gr of 31SC shoulld have me around 2950fps Max max of 31SC is 62gr @ 3100fps.  I'll play it safe and wait till I get a Chrony before I load any hotter.
 
It was the level or amount of change to POI for a relatively small increase in powder that worried me.  Maybe it is just a sweet spot in the harmonics of that barrel or maybe it is an indication of crossing some threshold.  I am ugly enough aready, I don't need my gun blowing up in my face to help the matter.  I'll let the chrony talk first before going further.
 


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 18:08
 Yeah,  I've seen high speed images that actually show the barrel bulging slightly as the bullet passes through it, something like a snake swallowing a rabbit!
 Seeing that makes it easy to understand why a rifle often hits high when the barrel is rested directly on a hard object and why a free-floated barrel often shoots better.
 I like the H4831, and the SC configuration sure makes a difference in flowability, doesn't it?.
 Great propellent for many uses.


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 18:23
Bud,

A chrony isn't going to tell you if you have reached an unsafe level.  I applaud your safety though! Excellent  If you start seeing pressure signs, then you are starting to get to that point, and should back off.  If you have not see those signs, you are safe to keep going, assuming your gun is in good condition.  With 130 gr bullets, even @ 3100 fps, it shouldn't be kicking hard enough to even scope you.  Seeing your groups, you can shoot fine, so I am guessing that going up is not going to bother you at all.

You are making me really want to go do some loading for my guns, but I have to build a bench first.  Guess I better get on that.


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 18:44
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 Yeah,  I've seen high speed images that actually show the barrel bulging slightly as the bullet passes through it, something like a snake swallowing a rabbit!
 Seeing that makes it easy to understand why a rifle often hits high when the barrel is rested directly on a hard object and why a free-floated barrel often shoots better.
 I like the H4831, and the SC configuration sure makes a difference in flowability, doesn't it?.
 Great propellent for many uses.
The cross-section of the kernels is large.  Being new to loading I haven't seen the regular cut but can only imagine it is a pain to get into the casings.  If I just dump instead of pour the SC into the funnel it still jambs at the casing entrance.  31SC is what I started with.  I also have H4895 intended to be used in both my 270Win and my Son's 308.  I made a few 270 loads up using the H4895 but haven't really concentrated on developing a load yet.  Then I got hooked on trying RE17 after reading the reviews.  Just found some of the RE17 last week,  I also picked up Varget and more 31SC.  So, I am set for a while in teh powder area.
 
I spent today working up 52.3, 52.5, 52.7, 52.9, 53.1 and 53.3gr RE17 loads for the 130gr intrebonds abd also worked up 57, 57.5 58, 58.5, 59.0gr 31SC loads.
 
I am not one for teh hottest possible loads.  I want the most repeatable and tightist groups.  I'll take care of the rest.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 19:02
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Bud,

A chrony isn't going to tell you if you have reached an unsafe level.  I applaud your safety though! Excellent  If you start seeing pressure signs, then you are starting to get to that point, and should back off.  If you have not see those signs, you are safe to keep going, assuming your gun is in good condition.  With 130 gr bullets, even @ 3100 fps, it shouldn't be kicking hard enough to even scope you.  Seeing your groups, you can shoot fine, so I am guessing that going up is not going to bother you at all.

You are making me really want to go do some loading for my guns, but I have to build a bench first.  Guess I better get on that.
 Helo's got a good point there which I neglected to mention- that a Chrony is an important tool, but it cannot take the place of careful observation of all the pressure signs you need to watch for!
 


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 19:14
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Bud,

A chrony isn't going to tell you if you have reached an unsafe level.  I applaud your safety though! Excellent  If you start seeing pressure signs, then you are starting to get to that point, and should back off.  If you have not see those signs, you are safe to keep going, assuming your gun is in good condition.  With 130 gr bullets, even @ 3100 fps, it shouldn't be kicking hard enough to even scope you.  Seeing your groups, you can shoot fine, so I am guessing that going up is not going to bother you at all.

You are making me really want to go do some loading for my guns, but I have to build a bench first.  Guess I better get on that.
 
I agree that the Chrony won't tell the whole story.  I am being carefull for a number of reasons.  I read an artical that showed just changing primers between CCI 200, Winchester LR and Ferderal 210s could cause a significant difference in internal pressure.
All the load datas I have seen for the RE17 in 270Win have been using Federal primers.
Other pressure data for differnt loads seem to indicate that changing to CCI 200 primers increase internal pressures and using magnum, primer makes it even worse.  I am after finding the load that performs the best in my gun.  Not the hottest load I can safely fire.
I'll do the rest with Kentuckey windage the old fashion way!
 
On that note, let me ask again, what are all the high pressure signs I should be looking for?
 
I have seen no signs of primer flattening, no distortion of the casings.  The primers don't seem to be any harder or easier to seat on reloading.  I have noticed that my winchester brass pockets are more snug than my remington brass but they have always been that way.  I which from Lee's auto loader to the hand primer per Rifle looney's suggestion so I could better feel the primers seating.
 


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 19:17
If none of that nor sticky  or hard bolt lift you are still good.

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Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 19:38
.


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 20:01
Bud,

I used to be the type that always thought faster was better.  I will still push it as fast as I can without pressure signs, and loss of accuracy.  With my 270, shooting 140 gr rounds, it shot better at faster velocities (smaller groups).  With 150 gr, I had to back off to get good groups.  Then I moved and no longer have a loading bench (which I am starting to plan out) and have not been able to play like I used to do.  If you like you loads where they are, and feel no need to go up, then stay where you are.  I will see if I can get ahold of some RL-17 and do some loading off my own with the 130 gr Innerbonds.  Keep us posted as to how your new batch shoots.


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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 20:54
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Bud,

I used to be the type that always thought faster was better.  I will still push it as fast as I can without pressure signs, and loss of accuracy.  With my 270, shooting 140 gr rounds, it shot better at faster velocities (smaller groups).  With 150 gr, I had to back off to get good groups.  Then I moved and no longer have a loading bench (which I am starting to plan out) and have not been able to play like I used to do.  If you like you loads where they are, and feel no need to go up, then stay where you are.  I will see if I can get ahold of some RL-17 and do some loading off my own with the 130 gr Innerbonds.  Keep us posted as to how your new batch shoots.
 
Well quit stalling Andy, Get that bench set-up!  I am sure there are times when you can't be buzzing the countryside in the eggbeater.  God you must get to enjoy some truely Awesome scenery it that thing!  Shooting, hunting and flying, oh and the occasional trout stream  ...now that's lovin life!
 
 


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: February/15/2009 at 21:21
I've noticed with my .308 after about 2775 fps with 168s the groups tend to open back up. So I think your right faster is not always better.
 


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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/16/2009 at 06:35
Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

I've noticed with my .308 after about 2775 fps with 168s the groups tend to open back up. So I think your right faster is not always better.
 
  Since I started this adventure (reloading) in January, the 1st 2 books I bought were Hornady's 7th Edition and Lee's 2nd Edition on Loading since I decided to start with Lee's equipment.  I believe that in the lee's book he always indicates the load that produces the smallest groupings and that it is seldom the hottest load. It seemed that for his equipmnet it was usually 1 to 1.5gr below Max.  now I know that it will vary from caliber to caliber, gun model to model, manuf to manuf etc... So its barrel specific behavior.  Thats half the fun on shooting and reloading is to find the sweet spot for each bullet weight & type as well as powder & primer combos.  Oh and lets NOT forget, lot to lot changes of powder.  all this for each gun you have.  One gun has been keeping me busy so far.  Thats why I started a 3 ring binder saving targets and notes during development.  Since I plan on having multiple loads for each gun I will transfer the end results to a reloading bible.

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: geezer
Date Posted: February/16/2009 at 08:29
Bud,
 
One more variable to play with is seating depth.  When you get your powder charge where you want it, you might close the group up some more by working with the seating depth.  I have had ver ygood results by moving in or out as little as 10 thousandths.


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I would give you my two cents worth, but then you would probably have to give half to the gov't and what good is one penny


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/16/2009 at 09:02
Originally posted by geezer geezer wrote:

Bud,
 
One more variable to play with is seating depth.  When you get your powder charge where you want it, you might close the group up some more by working with the seating depth.  I have had ver ygood results by moving in or out as little as 10 thousandths.
 
Good point geeze, right now I have the die set to seat Nosler ballistic tips 0.015" off the lands.  I am willing to bet that the interbonds are probably a little farther off due to the difference in ogive.  Once I shoot the reloads I loaded yesterday, I'll play with the seating depth.  it would be interesting to do a 4 corner study with various depths and loads and see how they plot out.  I would be willing to venture that there is a optimal load for each depth.  I may run out of bullest again at this rate. LOL


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/17/2009 at 16:16
Bud, you asked about preassure signs. I'm sure RONK can expand on this, but some of them to watch for are: flattened and/or cratered primers, stiff or hard to lift bolt. There are more, but one thing I like to do is measure the casehead at the web. I measure the casehead after full length sizing. After firing I measure the casehead again, if the casehead increases .001-.002 then the load is probably ok. Anything over .002 is getting into high preassure. I'm one of those conservative folks, so I like to stop when the load goes from .001 to .002. This keeps me in the mid-range of the loading data for the most part, but I still got my face and my rifle (knock on wood).

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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/18/2009 at 06:22
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Bud, you asked about preassure signs. I'm sure RONK can expand on this, but some of them to watch for are: flattened and/or cratered primers, stiff or hard to lift bolt. There are more, but one thing I like to do is measure the casehead at the web. I measure the casehead after full length sizing. After firing I measure the casehead again, if the casehead increases .001-.002 then the load is probably ok. Anything over .002 is getting into high preassure. I'm one of those conservative folks, so I like to stop when the load goes from .001 to .002. This keeps me in the mid-range of the loading data for the most part, but I still got my face and my rifle (knock on wood).
Lynn,
Thanks for the info and tips.  We are on the same page as far as safety goes on guns or anything that is held that close to your face.  As long as they group well, I am happy  the rest is windage and knowing your limits.  Cool


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/18/2009 at 11:33
i would recommend you try using sierra bullets

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/18/2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i would recommend you try using sierra bullets
 
Haven't really researched Sierra bullets... What's so special about them?
I originally set my sights on Hornady SSTs because I wanted a bullet that would perform well at the range and hunting.  SSTs with their poly ballistic tip and boat tail seem to be just the ticket and at $25 per 100 reasonible.  I started with Nosler BTs simply because they were available an a close copy of the SSTs ballistically.
 
Both Grafs and competitor just restocked 130gr ssts in 277
 


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/18/2009 at 11:49
ask trigger about his recent success with sierra, ive been using them for years, they have to be the most accurate bullets you can buy for there price, and i havent ever had a sierra fail me.

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/18/2009 at 19:52
  The pressure warning signs I watch out for are these:
 
 Unusually sharp recoil or muzzle blast.
 
 A fall-off in accuracy.
 
 Difficult bolt lift/extraction.
 
 Primers are flattened, sometimes out to the edges of the primer pocket.
 
 Primers are cratered; this is a little difficult to describe.  It's almost as if the primer started to ooze itself around the exposed firing pin. It may show up as a tiny burr around the firing pin impression on the fired primer. This can be exascerbated by a worn firing pin or an oversized firing pin hole in the bolt face.
 
 Pierced primers.
 
A shiny spot on the head of the fired case head, which upon inspection corresponds to the ejector slot or hole in the bolt face, (depending on the rifle).
 This is caused by high pressure pushing the cartride case brass so far into the bolt face that a small amount is actually sheared off when the bolt is rotated by lifting the bolt handle, the case itself still stuck to the chamber walls until the bolt is rotated further. There may be tiny brass shavings in the action and/or in the ejector slot of the bolt when this occurs.
 
Loose primers. This is usually evident in the priming process during the next loading. This is caused by the case head expansion mentioned by Belt Fed.
I usually don't measure for that, but it is certainly a very good idea, as long as you know what your "before" measurement is to compare it to the "after"..
 
 
 Rifle turns to shrapnel upon firing. Eek This is a definite warning sign!
 
 I'm sure there are others, but those are what I watch for.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/19/2009 at 06:35
Thanks guys.  I learned some new things to check for...Glad I asked.
 
The only stupid question is teh unasked one!


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/19/2009 at 08:36
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

  The pressure warning signs I watch out for are these:
 
  
 Rifle turns to shrapnel upon firing. Eek This is a definite warning sign!
 
 I'm sure there are others, but those are what I watch for.
That doesn't mean throw 5 more grains of powder at it!??? I must have gotten confused somewhere.Big Smile

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/19/2009 at 17:47
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Thanks guys.  I learned some new things to check for...Glad I asked.
 
The only stupid question is teh unasked one!
 
 You're new here aint ya?    Smoking


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/19/2009 at 19:11
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Thanks guys.  I learned some new things to check for...Glad I asked.
 
The only stupid question is teh unasked one!
 
 You're new here aint ya?    Smoking
EekBow.....CrutchBabyStareYep, Thought SoBucky.
 
LOL, God, I love that line!   Well done!  Was it Pat Palson the comedian?


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/19/2009 at 20:05
 I don't know where I got it, but it seemed to fit.
 Glad you took it the right way, Bud!
 
 
 
 Oh , while I have your attention, I think the Remington in your sig line is a Scoremaster, not Scopemaster. Just thought somebody would have pointed that out by now.
 You have some nice firearms, my friend!


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 01:05
Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

  Just thought somebody would have pointed that out by now.
 
 
He harassed me the first time I saw him here, and I haven't paid any attention to him since!Wink


-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 06:12
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

  Just thought somebody would have pointed that out by now.
 
 
He harassed me the first time I saw him here, and I haven't paid any attention to him since!Wink
   Trigger.....Dude....yer killin me!!!Smile 
 
I'll have to check the remy,  It was my grandpa's and now my son has it.  It still drives tacks!  Son's home tonight from college for weekend so I'll find out where it is hidden.
I doubt if you guys are wrong my memory being what it is.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 06:42
Bud, it's a bummer gettin' old ain't it?     what were we talkin' about!!!   LOL

-------------
"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 07:22
Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

Bud, it's a bummer gettin' old ain't it?     what were we talkin' about!!!   LOL
 
I AM NOT OLD!!!   I am well seasoned! Wink
 
It has been a busy year, turned 50 and my daughter made me grandpa!
The grandpa label I am STILL not used too! LOL Kid's 3 months old so I have
a little time before the verbal barrage starts.  Still undecided on what to have him call me!  Pap pap, gramps (ugh), etc.  Any suggestions guys???  I know I am gonna regret this! Bucky


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 07:24
Aw hell, I might as wel make it a string in Ed's world.

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 14:01
How about, Hey freekin old guy? I got some more, but the bad word filter would fall on me.

-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 16:41
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

How about, Hey freekin old guy? I got some more, but the bad word filter would fall on me.
 
 
Whats the matter???  Hate getting old?


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 14:26
[[/QUOTE]
 
 You're new here aint ya?    Smoking
[/QUOTE] EekBow.....CrutchBabyStareYep, Thought SoBucky.
 
LOL, God, I love that line!   Well done!  Was it Pat Palson the comedian?
[/QUOTE]
 
I remember now Comedian Paul Lynde.  play on Hollywood Squares, Bewitched and more.
he was hilarious!
 


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 14:33
 
 Paul Lynde was a scream.  The quickest wit ever.
 There was once a question posed to him on one of those shows: "Which is pregnant for a longer period of time, your wife or your elephant?"
 
 Paul replied instantly and indignantly-
 "WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT MY ELEPHANT??!!"
 
 I laugh out loud whenever I think of that.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 14:54
Absolutely!  Phenomenal timing and wit!!!
LOL LOVE IT!


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 15:26
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

I'd be happy with any and all, pretty decent groups.
 
Thanks Luc, I do what I can with what I got.  I think my stock is too short for me but can't afford to get  a custom.  If I had a wheelbarrel of money I'd you get a custom sized one or five heh heh heh Bandito
 
We have an abundace of groundhogs around here.  I want to work up a varmint load an offer my services to local farmers.  I find it amazing... groundhogs are too stupid to dodge cars but won't let a human within 100 yds.  Maybe doing that  would open some doors for deer hunting.   Most farmers don't want to let stranges hunt their land around here.

budperm, why do you think the stock is too short?  Your groups show no real indication of that.  If it is really too short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your actual POA.  There are some fairly simple Q&D formulae for determining a ROM length of pull estimate, then there is the complex science for benchrest shooters.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 17:00
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i would recommend you try using sierra bullets
 
Haven't really researched Sierra bullets... What's so special about them?
I originally set my sights on Hornady SSTs because I wanted a bullet that would perform well at the range and hunting.  SSTs with their poly ballistic tip and boat tail seem to be just the ticket and at $25 per 100 reasonible.  I started with Nosler BTs simply because they were available an a close copy of the SSTs ballistically.
 
Both Grafs and competitor just restocked 130gr ssts in 277
 
 
Hey Bud. I've started loading SST's now, but in 140 gr. I think they will shoot well too, and with a B.C. like they have should be very deadly, even way out there. They outrun the Winchesters I was shooting by 300 yards, and start off 150 fps slower. They are a long bullet though. If your gun likes to have bullets seated near the lands, you may not make it due to magazine constrictions. I ran in to that myself.


-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 21:57
Yeah, I am loading 140gr SSTs right now too.  Starting with H4831SC 5ea of 57.5, 58.0, 58.5, 59.0gr.  Once I have dialed in 31SC I'll start with RE17.  My Chrony should be here this week, so I 'll be able to get some hard numbers.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 21:59
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Yeah, I am loading 140gr SSTs right now too.  Starting with H4831SC 5ea of 57.5, 58.0, 58.5, 59.0gr.  Once I have dialed in 31SC I'll start with RE17.  My Chrony should be here this week, so I 'll be able to get some hard numbers.


  Witch one Chrony did you end up getting?


-------------




Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 22:41
I had to go the cheap route, went with an F-1 Chrony for $79.95 delivered.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 22:42
See them all the time they work!

-------------




Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/21/2009 at 23:15
Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

See them all the time they work!
Thanks, thats good to know! They have decent reviews.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/23/2009 at 19:54
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

I'd be happy with any and all, pretty decent groups.
 
Thanks Luc, I do what I can with what I got.  I think my stock is too short for me but can't afford to get  a custom.  If I had a wheelbarrel of money I'd you get a custom sized one or five heh heh heh Bandito
 
We have an abundace of groundhogs around here.  I want to work up a varmint load an offer my services to local farmers.  I find it amazing... groundhogs are too stupid to dodge cars but won't let a human within 100 yds.  Maybe doing that  would open some doors for deer hunting.   Most farmers don't want to let stranges hunt their land around here.

budperm, why do you think the stock is too short?  Your groups show no real indication of that.  If it is really too short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your actual POA.  There are some fairly simple Q&D formulae for determining a ROM length of pull estimate, then there is the complex science for benchrest shooters.  
 
eeeh eeem.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/24/2009 at 06:52
[

budperm, why do you think the stock is too short?  Your groups show no real indication of that.  If it is really too short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your actual POA.  There are some fairly simple Q&D formulae for determining a ROM length of pull estimate, then there is the complex science for benchrest shooters.  
[/QUOTE]
 
eeeh eeem.
[/QUOTE]  Sorry guys, missed this question.
 
Well truth be told I know nothing about sizing a rifle stock.  I do know that I am a little on the oversized side of things... 6'2" 280#+ and 38" long arms.  Fairly broad shouldered.   Usually it is my arm length that gives me troubles. 
 
For instance, I was chunking for yellowfin tuna with some friends off Ocean City, MD.  I hooked into a 50# tuna and it KICKED my butt!  I was trying to hold the pole by the handle.  This meant that with my long arms  I was fighting the tuna with my biceps and small of my back.  It was embarassing!  My buddies laughed and made fun of me, after all it was only a 50# fish.
The Captain of the charter pulled me aside and told me to lock my arms out straight next time.  I said that if I did that I would be holding the pole just behind the 2nd eyelet from the tip.  He said not to worry about the Tuna stick (Pole) it would survive.  Next hook-up I did what he said and the difference was completely amazing.  I had no trouble at all fighting and landing the tuna (another 50#er).
 
I have always felt more comfortable with a longer stock and barrel.  One of these days I need to research more on how to proper fit a rifle. You guys know of any websites or books on hthe subject???


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 06:49
Well I got my Chrono Monday evening.  I hope to get to the range after work today.
I hope the weather co-operates.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 07:01
  Should be good weather,warm,but I like using my chrono when it's overcast and it's SUPPOSE to be sunny. Watch those shadows!


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 20:33
Well, I have definitely had better days at the range!  Everything started well, then went directly to h$ll in a hand basket!!!
 
I got to the range about 4:30pm. Sunny, little wind, no one else around.
I set up two stations, one at 100yds for the 270W and one at 50yds for the 8mm Mauser w/iron sights.  Set up the new Chrony on the 100ydr. 
 
I figured I'd warm up with 5 corelocks.  1st corelock clocked at 3083fps.  I didn't know they were loaded that hot.
2nd corelock...the muzzle blast sent the chrony flying and cracked one of the halo pieces.
Re-set up the chrony a little farther away and tried again.  Chrony again fell over.  I don't have a tripod for Chrony so I was using a fold-up TV dinner table and a couple of boxes stacked under Chrony.  About this time I hear something sliding on the shooting bench behind me and turn to watch my baby (270) slide off the sandbags bounce off the stool and hit the ground.  mailto:&$@%28%29%@#% - &$^@()%@#% *#@.  I picked her up and went over her with a fine tooth comb.  2 abbrasions on the stock one nick about 1" back from end of barrel.  *&^*@&_( mailto:&@$%% - &@$^%% .  Well after that I was needless to say in a BAD MOOD!
 
Set the Chrony to one side and test fired the 270.  Sure enough I had lost zero by 2+ inches left 1" high. *&%#%*.  Even better mood!  Took a 15 minute break to cool down..
 
Re-sighted in the scope using H4831SC 58gr.  She adjusted fine and zero walked right back in.  Huge sigh of relief.
 
Back to testing RE17.  Set up Chrony again, this time far enough away that muzzle blast wouldn't bother it.  Lesson learned.  Fired 5rnd group of RE17 52.7gr w/ 130gr Hornady Interbonds.  By this time light was fading fast and temp was dropping faster.
 
Speeds of RE17 @ 52.7gr w/ 130gr interbond
 
2958
2937
2929
2948
2963 fps
 
Ag 2947
Lo 2929
Hi 2963
spread 34
 
Shot a few rounds with mauser, new MoJo peepsight on rear.  World of difference!!! Thanks Dark Lord!!! Turns out mauser was set-up for 6 O'clock hold but off to left 3-4".  A couple of taps on front sight and bingo a bullseye!
 
Back to 270W and RE17
52.9gr RE17 130gr interbond Light failing fast.
1st shot 3020 fps
after that not enough light for chrony to sense bullets.
So I called it quits. Damn cold now too.
Packed up and headed for home!
 
So, if I do a little exstrapulation...
130gr interbond with 52.7gr RE17 avg . 2947fps
130gr interbond with 52.9gr RE17 spd. 3020fps could only clock one rnd do to low lite.
 
3020-2947=73fps delta.  Ballpark it to 60fps per 0.2gr increase in load
the 53.5gr load I shot last week that had POI 1.5" above zero was approxiamately cruising at 3187fps.  If I use the calculated 73fps per 0.2gr load increase that would put the 53.5gr charge at 3239fps.  I'd say that is pretty warm.
 
Weather and time permitting I will try again tomorrow to see if my reasoning tracks hard numbers.  I am posting this both here and in range report forum.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 20:40
Bud, any day at the range is a good day, thanks for the info oh yeh the tv tray thing not a good thing....... WHOOOOODA thought? 

                                                      Loco


-------------




Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 20:53
Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

Bud, any day at the range is a good day, thanks for the info oh yeh the tv tray thing not a good thing....... WHOOOOODA thought? 

                                                      Loco
 
Yeah I know.  I meant to bring a tripod home from work and got side tracked and forgot.
So, I once again paid for my impatience, by cracking a brand new Chrony halo reflector and having my baby bite the dust  because I was dicking with the stupid Chrony.  I got what I deserved.  Shoot Self


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 20:56
We have all had those %$%^#%*@%  days at least you didn't shoot the chrony!

-------------




Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 20:59
Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

We have all had those %$%^#%*@%  days at least you didn't shoot the chrony!
 
Ah, there is that! SmileBucky  You optimist you Wink


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 21:04
Went to the range once watched a guy shoot his gun... BANG.... the base snapped off got  another gun out... BANG..... shoots the chrony packs up his stuff and leaves the chrony comes  back gets the chrony but leaves his sun glasses on the bench ....I wore those glasses for two years!   Cool

-------------




Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 21:20
Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

Went to the range once watched a guy shoot his gun... BANG.... the base snapped off got  another gun out... BANG..... shoots the chrony packs up his stuff and leaves the chrony comes  back gets the chrony but leaves his sun glasses on the bench ....I wore those glasses for two years!   Cool
 
That sounds like someone I would rather NOT share te range with! LOL   Peeker


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/25/2009 at 22:38
Sorry to hear about your rough day at the range, although I am liking the numbers I am seeing.

-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 01:31
Hang in there, after a day like that it only can get better!!! I also get mighty p%$3 when my rifle gets bumped or nicked.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 06:41
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Hang in there, after a day like that it only can get better!!! I also get mighty p%$3 when my rifle gets bumped or nicked.
Thanks 8, my baby isn't perfect anymore but I still love her!  Scratches on the synthetic stock doesn't really bother me cause I think there ugly to begin with!  But nicks and scratches on the metal really pi$$es me off!  If the shooting bench had not been covered with a layer of rubber it would have been much worse I fear!


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 08:33
Hey Bud what kind of scope was on there?
 
Oh, and sorry about your rough day! It can only get better from here.


-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 10:52
Hi Trigger! 
          Gun and scope took a pretty good tumble.  Slid off bags while rotating slowly, then scope hit edge of table top.  Gun then tipped over table edge and slide down and hit the shooting stool which is really Cinder blocks capped with plastic decking. then fell to concrete floor and bounced.  All this in very slow motion while I watched wimpering.
 
No marks on scope itself but it definitely hit the table top.  Luckily the top is covered with 1/16" sheet of rubber!  Couple of good scuffs on stock and one nick about 1" back from crown on barrel.
 
Ths scope was a new 2.5-10X40 Bushnell Elite 4200.  She seems to have survived the experience well.  She dialed right back in to zero smoothly and each adjustment seemed to be a equal change. Time will tell if she'll hold zero or not. Clown


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 12:01
I was just curious, as my rifle took a similar tumble. Fortunately, my rifle has no marks to show for it. My scope has survived so far. I'm just hoping it is ok. It's been about 6 months so far, and lately it's been shot every day. Got to love heat waves.

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 12:38
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

I was just curious, as my rifle took a similar tumble. Fortunately, my rifle has no marks to show for it. My scope has survived so far. I'm just hoping it is ok. It's been about 6 months so far, and lately it's been shot every day. Got to love heat waves.
If its been that long and you've shot it several different times I think it is good to go.  What brand / model is your scope?

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 16:58
Why do bad things always seem to happen in slow motion?  Gets sickening having it replay in your mind.  Glad nothing else got ruined.  Not bad numbers from the reload, might have to try the stuff.  Is RE17 extruded, ball, or flake?  

-------------
If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 18:48
Originally posted by SD Dog SD Dog wrote:

Why do bad things always seem to happen in slow motion?  Gets sickening having it replay in your mind.  Glad nothing else got ruined.  Not bad numbers from the reload, might have to try the stuff.  Is RE17 extruded, ball, or flake?  
RE17 is a new reformulation.  It is extruded and supposedly has simular burn characteristics as H4530.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 18:54
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by SD Dog SD Dog wrote:

Why do bad things always seem to happen in slow motion?  Gets sickening having it replay in your mind.  Glad nothing else got ruined.  Not bad numbers from the reload, might have to try the stuff.  Is RE17 extruded, ball, or flake?  
RE17 is a new reformulation.  It is extruded and supposedly has simular burn characteristics as H4530.


Hey Bud look not right again!  Loco


-------------




Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

[

budperm, why do you think the stock is too short?  Your groups show no real indication of that.  If it is really too short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your actual POA.  There are some fairly simple Q&D formulae for determining a ROM length of pull estimate, then there is the complex science for benchrest shooters.  
 
eeeh eeem.
[/QUOTE]  Sorry guys, missed this question.
 
Well truth be told I know nothing about sizing a rifle stock.  I do know that I am a little on the oversized side of things... 6'2" 280#+ and 38" long arms.  Fairly broad shouldered.   Usually it is my arm length that gives me troubles. 
 
For instance, I was chunking for yellowfin tuna with some friends off Ocean City, MD.  I hooked into a 50# tuna and it KICKED my butt!  I was trying to hold the pole by the handle.  This meant that with my long arms  I was fighting the tuna with my biceps and small of my back.  It was embarassing!  My buddies laughed and made fun of me, after all it was only a 50# fish.
The Captain of the charter pulled me aside and told me to lock my arms out straight next time.  I said that if I did that I would be holding the pole just behind the 2nd eyelet from the tip.  He said not to worry about the Tuna stick (Pole) it would survive.  Next hook-up I did what he said and the difference was completely amazing.  I had no trouble at all fighting and landing the tuna (another 50#er).
 
I have always felt more comfortable with a longer stock and barrel.  One of these days I need to research more on how to proper fit a rifle. You guys know of any websites or books on hthe subject???
[/QUOTE]
Bend your arm to 90 degrees and place the recoil pad in the crook of your elbow.  Trigger and grip should fall right where your hand is, measure from unflexed bicep (with arm crooked to 90deg) to your normal trigger pull point.  You might have to work with that a bit and maybe get someone to assist.  Most factory rifles come with about a 13.5in length of pull, trying to meet the needs of the "average shooter".  I am only 5'8" but have a longer than normal reach(good for boxing).  My LOP is 14.25-14.5", but I can adjust for average rifle stocks.  However, IF your length of pull really is short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your point of aim.  It is possible you have adjusted over time, but your grouping does not show that indication/tendency.  Heavy clothing tends to have an impact, which is why people should practice with the gear they are going to wear while hunting/shooting in order to get a good feel for real field conditions.  



-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

I was just curious, as my rifle took a similar tumble. Fortunately, my rifle has no marks to show for it. My scope has survived so far. I'm just hoping it is ok. It's been about 6 months so far, and lately it's been shot every day. Got to love heat waves.
If its been that long and you've shot it several different times I think it is good to go.  What brand / model is your scope?
 
Is a Conquest 4.5-14x44. I wouldn't have worried so much except for the side focus. It seems to be ok though.


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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 19:18
Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by SD Dog SD Dog wrote:

Why do bad things always seem to happen in slow motion?  Gets sickening having it replay in your mind.  Glad nothing else got ruined.  Not bad numbers from the reload, might have to try the stuff.  Is RE17 extruded, ball, or flake?  
RE17 is a new reformulation.  It is extruded and supposedly has simular burn characteristics as H4530.


Hey Bud look not right again!  Loco
WHOOOPS, my bad transposed numbers, so sorry
 

Reloder® 17

Smokeless Short Magnum Rifle

With Reloder 17 reloaders have a powder that meters easy and consistently while providing maximum velocity even in extreme weather. This consistent performance is what reloaders have come to expect from Alliant Powder - and Reloder 17 doesn't disappoint.

  • Designed for short magnum case capacity
  • Similar burn speed to IMR 4350
  • Meters easily and consistently
  • Consistent maximum velocity in extreme weather conditions


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 19:44
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

[

budperm, why do you think the stock is too short?  Your groups show no real indication of that.  If it is really too short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your actual POA.  There are some fairly simple Q&D formulae for determining a ROM length of pull estimate, then there is the complex science for benchrest shooters.  
 
eeeh eeem.
Bend your arm to 90 degrees and place the recoil pad in the crook of your elbow.  Trigger and grip should fall right where your hand is, measure from unflexed bicep (with arm crooked to 90deg) to your normal trigger pull point.  You might have to work with that a bit and maybe get someone to assist.  Most factory rifles come with about a 13.5in length of pull, trying to meet the needs of the "average shooter".  I am only 5'8" but have a longer than normal reach(good for boxing).  My LOP is 14.25-14.5", but I can adjust for average rifle stocks.  However, IF your length of pull really is short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your point of aim.  It is possible you have adjusted over time, but your grouping does not show that indication/tendency.  Heavy clothing tends to have an impact, which is why people should practice with the gear they are going to wear while hunting/shooting in order to get a good feel for real field conditions.  

[/QUOTE] Thanks Kick!  I have heard "length of pull" mentioned here a couple of times but don't / didn't know what was meant by it.  If I understand you correctly I should measure from the middle of the relaxed bicep to trigger pull point with elbow bent at 90, correct?  Define Normal trigger pull point for me.  Is it with trigger finger curled as if resting on trigger? If so, My LOP is 15.75" +/-  Told ya, I have 38" long ape arms.  I did add a limb saver butt pad to the stock that added about 1.5-2" to stock length.

Is it possible I dialed out the right pull tendency when I sighted in the gun?  I sighted in shouldering gun and using sandbags on forstock.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 19:48


Hey Bud look not right again!  Loco
[/QUOTE] WHOOOPS, my bad transposed numbers, so sorry
 

Reloder® 17

Smokeless Short Magnum Rifle

With Reloder 17 reloaders have a powder that meters easy and consistently while providing maximum velocity even in extreme weather. This consistent performance is what reloaders have come to expect from Alliant Powder - and Reloder 17 doesn't disappoint.

  • Designed for short magnum case capacity
  • Similar burn speed to IMR 4350
  • Meters easily and consistently
  • Consistent maximum velocity in extreme weather conditions
[/QUOTE]   Thanks for keeping me straight RL, I would hate to give mis-information that caused someone harm!

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/26/2009 at 22:42
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

[

budperm, why do you think the stock is too short?  Your groups show no real indication of that.  If it is really too short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your actual POA.  There are some fairly simple Q&D formulae for determining a ROM length of pull estimate, then there is the complex science for benchrest shooters.  
 
eeeh eeem.
Bend your arm to 90 degrees and place the recoil pad in the crook of your elbow.  Trigger and grip should fall right where your hand is, measure from unflexed bicep (with arm crooked to 90deg) to your normal trigger pull point.  You might have to work with that a bit and maybe get someone to assist.  Most factory rifles come with about a 13.5in length of pull, trying to meet the needs of the "average shooter".  I am only 5'8" but have a longer than normal reach(good for boxing).  My LOP is 14.25-14.5", but I can adjust for average rifle stocks.  However, IF your length of pull really is short, you should show a tendency to group to the right of your point of aim.  It is possible you have adjusted over time, but your grouping does not show that indication/tendency.  Heavy clothing tends to have an impact, which is why people should practice with the gear they are going to wear while hunting/shooting in order to get a good feel for real field conditions.  

Thanks Kick!  I have heard "length of pull" mentioned here a couple of times but don't / didn't know what was meant by it.  If I understand you correctly I should measure from the middle of the relaxed bicep to trigger pull point with elbow bent at 90, correct?  Define Normal trigger pull point for me.  Is it with trigger finger curled as if resting on trigger? If so, My LOP is 15.75" +/-  Told ya, I have 38" long ape arms.  I did add a limb saver butt pad to the stock that added about 1.5-2" to stock length.

Is it possible I dialed out the right pull tendency when I sighted in the gun?  I sighted in shouldering gun and using sandbags on forstock.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, normal trigger pull point is as you described, at least as taught to me.  However, if you added 1.5 - 2.0in to a "normal" rifle stock, that should be right at 15.0-15.5in.  The "generalization" says that a person 6'2" tall should have a LOP of about 14in, but that is just a generalization.  Without a butt pad, I think you would be very uncomfortable shooting.  That is a LONG reach... ever think of boxing?  People who have long arms generally need a longer LOP.   There are more complex and "accurate" methods used by the benchrest guys to determine your ideal LOP.   Many of the tactical-type stocks have adjustable LOP with 4 inches or more of travel from about a 13.5 to 13.75in center.  That might be an option...  you can get some drop-in tactical style stocks at a pretty reasonable price.  

I believe, even after sighting in, you would have a tendency to group right, at least in follow-up shooting sessions.  It is possible that you have become accustomed to the shorter stock lengths since you have probably shot with them all your life, and in sighting in you are correcting out the tendency.  You would be, I think, more comfortable with a custom stock, built to your LOP or perhaps an adjustable.  Might tighten your groups (which from shown are not that bad) up.  
LOP is not the only consideration in fitting a stock and has gone from an art to a true science.  




-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: February/27/2009 at 07:09

[/QUOTE] Thanks Kick!  I have heard "length of pull" mentioned here a couple of times but don't / didn't know what was meant by it.  If I understand you correctly I should measure from the middle of the relaxed bicep to trigger pull point with elbow bent at 90, correct?  Define Normal trigger pull point for me.  Is it with trigger finger curled as if resting on trigger? If so, My LOP is 15.75" +/-  Told ya, I have 38" long ape arms.  I did add a limb saver butt pad to the stock that added about 1.5-2" to stock length.

Is it possible I dialed out the right pull tendency when I sighted in the gun?  I sighted in shouldering gun and using sandbags on forstock.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, normal trigger pull point is as you described, at least as taught to me.  However, if you added 1.5 - 2.0in to a "normal" rifle stock, that should be right at 15.0-15.5in.  The "generalization" says that a person 6'2" tall should have a LOP of about 14in, but that is just a generalization.  Without a butt pad, I think you would be very uncomfortable shooting.  That is a LONG reach... ever think of boxing?  People who have long arms generally need a longer LOP.   There are more complex and "accurate" methods used by the benchrest guys to determine your ideal LOP.   Many of the tactical-type stocks have adjustable LOP with 4 inches or more of travel from about a 13.5 to 13.75in center.  That might be an option...  you can get some drop-in tactical style stocks at a pretty reasonable price.  

I believe, even after sighting in, you would have a tendency to group right, at least in follow-up shooting sessions.  It is possible that you have become accustomed to the shorter stock lengths since you have probably shot with them all your life, and in sighting in you are correcting out the tendency.  You would be, I think, more comfortable with a custom stock, built to your LOP or perhaps an adjustable.  Might tighten your groups (which from shown are not that bad) up.  
LOP is not the only consideration in fitting a stock and has gone from an art to a true science.  


[/QUOTE]   Thanks again Kick!  I did feel more comfortable after adding the butt pad.  It also seemed that it was easier to settle into the target.  I think that for hunting guns I'll probably just make do.  I have been toying with the idea of trying PD shooting and if I do I will go with one of the fully adjustable stocks.  I'll have to research the science.
 
AS for boxing, I found out in judo that I have a glass jaw. Clown


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/21/2009 at 11:35
Just bringing this back to top of thread
 
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Well, I have definitely had better days at the range!  Everything started well, then went directly to h$ll in a hand basket!!!
 
I got to the range about 4:30pm. Sunny, little wind, no one else around.
I set up two stations, one at 100yds for the 270W and one at 50yds for the 8mm Mauser w/iron sights.  Set up the new Chrony on the 100ydr. 
 
I figured I'd warm up with 5 corelocks.  1st corelock clocked at 3083fps.  I didn't know they were loaded that hot.
2nd corelock...the muzzle blast sent the chrony flying and cracked one of the halo pieces.
Re-set up the chrony a little farther away and tried again.  Chrony again fell over.  I don't have a tripod for Chrony so I was using a fold-up TV dinner table and a couple of boxes stacked under Chrony.  About this time I hear something sliding on the shooting bench behind me and turn to watch my baby (270) slide off the sandbags bounce off the stool and hit the ground.  mailto:&$@%28%29%@#% - &$^@()%@#% *#@.  I picked her up and went over her with a fine tooth comb.  2 abbrasions on the stock one nick about 1" back from end of barrel.  *&^*@&_( mailto:&@$%% - &@$^%% .  Well after that I was needless to say in a BAD MOOD!
 
Set the Chrony to one side and test fired the 270.  Sure enough I had lost zero by 2+ inches left 1" high. *&%#%*.  Even better mood!  Took a 15 minute break to cool down..
 
Re-sighted in the scope using H4831SC 58gr.  She adjusted fine and zero walked right back in.  Huge sigh of relief.
 
Back to testing RE17.  Set up Chrony again, this time far enough away that muzzle blast wouldn't bother it.  Lesson learned.  Fired 5rnd group of RE17 52.7gr w/ 130gr Hornady Interbonds.  By this time light was fading fast and temp was dropping faster.
 
Speeds of RE17 @ 52.7gr w/ 130gr interbond
 
2958
2937
2929
2948
2963 fps
 
Ag 2947
Lo 2929
Hi 2963
spread 34
 
Shot a few rounds with mauser, new MoJo peepsight on rear.  World of difference!!! Thanks Dark Lord!!! Turns out mauser was set-up for 6 O'clock hold but off to left 3-4".  A couple of taps on front sight and bingo a bullseye!
 
Back to 270W and RE17
52.9gr RE17 130gr interbond Light failing fast.
1st shot 3020 fps
after that not enough light for chrony to sense bullets.
So I called it quits. Damn cold now too.
Packed up and headed for home!
 
So, if I do a little exstrapulation...
130gr interbond with 52.7gr RE17 avg . 2947fps
130gr interbond with 52.9gr RE17 spd. 3020fps could only clock one rnd do to low lite.
 
3020-2947=73fps delta.  Ballpark it to 60fps per 0.2gr increase in load
the 53.5gr load I shot last week that had POI 1.5" above zero was approxiamately cruising at 3187fps.  If I use the calculated 73fps per 0.2gr load increase that would put the 53.5gr charge at 3239fps.  I'd say that is pretty warm.
 
Weather and time permitting I will try again tomorrow to see if my reasoning tracks hard numbers.  I am posting this both here and in range report forum.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: March/21/2009 at 12:44
Sorry to be so slow on adding to this string.  I have since acquired a Chrony and have actual numbers to report.
I was simultaniously developing loads for my 270Win using both H4831SC and RE17.
 
H4831SC w/ 130gr Hornady Interbonds  was late evening, chrony wasn't detecting well 45F
  
   57.0gr          57.5gr          58.0gr         58.5gr  H4831SC shot 1st, better light.
    2980              2961             3030             3101
    2955              2954             3017             3086
    2968              2934             3014             3129
    2957              2939             2998             3082
    2970              2941             3008             xxxxx
av2966.0           2945.8          3013.4          3099.5
lo 2955              2934             2998             3082
hi 2980              2961             3030             3129
es    25                  27                 32                 47
 
 
RE-17 w/ 130gr Hornady Interbond
  52.7gr.         52.9gr          53.1gr         53.3gr     light was lower temp dropping         
   2958              3033              2997            2996
   2937              3028              3069            3023
   2929              3029              3005            3085
   2948              xxxxx             2900            3093
av2943             3029              2992.8         3049.3
lo 2929             3028              2900            2996
hi 2958             3033              3069            3093
es    29                 5                    31                97
these numbers didn't make since to me so i decided to repeat test before reporting.
 
 
Different day and reloading
 
H4831SC w/ 130gr Hornady Interbonds  62F sunny
    58.0gr        58.5gr          59.0gr         59.5gr
     3057           3085              3113            3131
     3056           3085              3112            3139
     3064           3074              3102            3126
     xxxxx          3074              3117            3136
     xxxxx          3091              3107            3138

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson






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