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MOA needed for 1000 yards

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Topic: MOA needed for 1000 yards
Posted By: hunterco
Subject: MOA needed for 1000 yards
Date Posted: February/07/2009 at 22:57
Can someone help, I see many links requiring me to fill in detailed load info on MOA needed for 1000 yards. My scope has 52 MOA internal adjustement, with a 20 MOA base and zeroed at 100 yds, can I hit 1000??
 
165-175 G hpbt's 308 cal or similar
 
ThanksExcellent



Replies:
Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:09
For a 308 with 175 SMK with M118 LR velocities, typically you would 42 MOA.
 
100-200;     2 MOA
200-300;     3 MOA
300-500;     8 MOA
500-600;     5 MOA
600-1000; 24 MOA
 
Total          42 MOA
 
HTH


Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:11
so I should be fine with 52 MOA plus 20 MOA Base but it will be tight?


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:25
Personally,  I think you'll need a little more help.  More info on your setup would be good.  
Depends on how good your mounting is.  If you get everything perfect, you should be OK, but you don't have much margin for error.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:35
So I have a 52 MOA Nikon Monarch X 4-16x50. This should give me 25 MOA up and 25 down. Put on a 20 MOA base and I will have 45 up with a few MOA to spare? I plan to shoot 168 gr hpbt


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:50
If your mount and internal adjustment is "perfect", you actually have 26 up and down after mounting, with the 20 MOA base, you should have a little margin.  Maybe 7 or 8 MOA.  That assumes you are pushing your 168gr hpbt at fairly standard velocity around 2650-2700fpsMV.  It is less than I would like, but livable.  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  With a 200yd zero you would only be about 2in high at 100.  

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 00:01
More info. Things like typical humidity, Altitude, Velocity. There is the easy answer which is yes you can get that far out by combining the click ups, and the holdover value for the reticles subtension at the used power range, and rezero the rifle for 200 yards. I say this because the closer you get to bottom, the less you will have adjustment for windage. Also bare in mind that depending on how well your scope zeroed windage wise, you may not even have the clicks you expect to be there. 26 up and down is dependent upon the center of the windage zero. If it is very close to being dead nuts than you will have most of your available come ups. If not, then you will not have them.
The Monarch X is a great scope, it isn't what I call long range friendly. The limited adjustment range makes the work for accomplishing long range shooting a bit more encompassing. Typically (for that scope) you would want a 25 or even a 30 moa base if you are going to be very serious about doing a fair amount of shooting at various distances on out to 1000 yards.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 00:06
I only have a 600yd range at my club, but I may go to the 1000yd range on the other side of town once or twice a year. our sniper match does not exceed 600yd so it is not that important to shoot at it all the time, only to be capable of it if needed..


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 10:54

It sounds like you want a scope that will shoot a 308/7.62mm 168 BTHP from 100 to 1000 yards.  Well, having been down this road, what you need is a scope with plenty of internal elevation.  Otherwise, with offset bases and rings you’re going to use the full spectrum of your adjustments.  In my experience, mechanical devices have a sweet spot and may not be so good on the outer fringes of adjustment, YMMV.

 

Also, FWIW, a SMK 175 is a lot better than a 168 BTHP at 1000 yards.  The 168 is good out to about 800 but after that it goes sub-sonic and array.

 

Also, the numbers I provided are approximate (+ or -).

 

Good luck.

 

Jim White



Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 11:13
Thanks everyone, looks like I will just shoot it until it lets me down and I am forced to move in a new direction.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 11:16
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  


If his scope only has 50MOA of total adjustment, a 25MOA or more would be bad. 


Why set up a 1,000-yard gun that will only see 1,000 yards twice a year at most?  Have you ever shot at 1,000 yards?

I'd say keep the 20MOA base, figure out the 600-yard shot, then use the reticle to adjust for the rest. If your mounting isn't perfect and your internals aren't dead-on; with a 25 or 30MOA base, you will run out of adjustment room on the horizontal axis, which will severely limit your adjustment on the vertical.  Also, scopes in the mid-price range don't do particularly well at the extremes of their adjustment range (at least that has been my experience.)

It isn't what you'll want to hear, but I'd recommend a scope made more for long-range target shooting.  If yours is a Monarch like the one I had, that reticle will cover allot'o target at 1,000 yards.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 11:46
Thanks Cy and RC for pointing out scope limitations. Hunterco sounds like me as far as trying to get everything a scope or rifle has to offer, even alittle more when we can. But like you both said the Monarch is a great scope for the $ but it would not be my choice for 1K unless ofcourse it is what I had and no plans to buy another. I think what Hunterco is going to find is that beyond 600yds. He's not going be happy with consistancy. Like RC said when you go to the limits of adjustment the scope isn't going to be so reliable. That is why I am looking at a Kahles multi-zero, Tactical IOR and US Optics for my next purchase. Scopes that are built with adjustment in mind. 
Hunterco by all means start with the Monarch and see what you can get out of it. I'd really like to know what you can get in consistant range adjustment. Then if in fact you find that you need something else you will still be sharp and on track concerning shooting discipline and how much adjustment to look for in a new scope. Good luck and let us know how things go.


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 12:17
To all,
 
One reason I'm familiar with what hunterco desires is because I tried it with a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20x44 (dot reticle).  Nice scope, but it's not going to make him happy if he wants to go to far beyond 600 yards with a 308.  Its a nice scope but I'm afraid its not going to do what he desires.  Now, if he had a 22-250, 220 Swift, 243 Winchester or say a 260 Remington (all will shoot from a 308 bolt head) then it may have enough adjustment to accomodate 100 to 1000 yds of shooting for him.
 
Another case he's going to be disappointed is with the 168 SMK @ 1000 yds.  Just not enough horsepower to get it there from a 308 and stay super-sonic.
 
Been there, done that....
 
HTH


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 13:00
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  


If his scope only has 50MOA of total adjustment, a 25MOA or more would be bad. 


Why set up a 1,000-yard gun that will only see 1,000 yards twice a year at most?  Have you ever shot at 1,000 yards?

I'd say keep the 20MOA base, figure out the 600-yard shot, then use the reticle to adjust for the rest. If your mounting isn't perfect and your internals aren't dead-on; with a 25 or 30MOA base, you will run out of adjustment room on the horizontal axis, which will severely limit your adjustment on the vertical.  Also, scopes in the mid-price range don't do particularly well at the extremes of their adjustment range (at least that has been my experience.)

It isn't what you'll want to hear, but I'd recommend a scope made more for long-range target shooting.  If yours is a Monarch like the one I had, that reticle will cover allot'o target at 1,000 yards.
The answer lies in using the entire reticle. (both above and below center cross) Like I said to accomplish this distance using the Monarch requires an all encompassing effort. Including knowing the values for the reticle at all powers.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 13:11
Originally posted by tjtjwdad tjtjwdad wrote:

 
Another case he's going to be disappointed is with the 168 SMK @ 1000 yds.  Just not enough horsepower to get it there from a 308 and stay super-sonic.
 
Been there, done that....
 
HTH
 
Did you ever try any 155gr. Lapua Scenar's out to 1000?
 


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 14:24
cheaptrick,
 
I never tried the Lapua 155 but I did try the Sierra Palma 155 in a M14 @ 1000 yds with open sights.  I shot a 190-5x with it using push/pull ball ammo.  I feel with attention to cases, primers etc... it would do quite well.  I did check run-out and I only used those with .001 or less. 
 
I felt it was more luck than anything else because (at 1000 yds) the rear sight is so far in the air it gets tough with sight alignment because the apature is not perfectly round at that point. 
 
For those who have never tried 1000 yd shooting with a M1 or M14 you're in for a treat.  Frustrating?  Yeah, but it beats a day doing yard work anytime.
 
Jim


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 15:24
Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

That is why I am looking at a Kahles multi-zero, Tactical IOR and US Optics for my next purchase. Scopes that are built with adjustment in mind. 




I have a USO listed on teh "optics for sale" forum, just in case you feel the need.  It is a great scope for 1,000+ yard shots and can go from 100 yard zero to 1,000 shot with less than one full revolution of the elevation dial.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, just letting you know the option is out there.

Carry on.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 15:58
168 gr smk were designed for optimun accuracy around 600 yds, and the 175s are more forgiving in terms of reloading error.  the 168 are still above the speed of  sound at 1000 yds -- still around 1.5 mach but usually have more yaw. from the following table your looking at about 29 moa so with a 20 moa base and the freedom you have in that scope you should get to 1000 yds, but at 100 yds there will be little sweet spot left. used a  very conservative number for bc in this calculation


Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 16:24
Depending on your rifle 168 matchkings might be unstable past about 900-950 yards.
You haven't said what barrel length and manufacture, factory ammo or handloads so there's much supposition here.
 
175 smk at 270 fps @ 1000 asl are 35.25 moa average over a temp spectrum of + 40 to     + 125f and station pressures of 28.45 to 29.85 Hg.
175 smk at 2600 are 36.75 moa average over the same temp/pressure spectrum.
190smk at 2650 is 34.25 average moa same same.
Altitude is in your favor.  If you're in Seattle Washington it will require more elevation than you might have available.
If you're in Red Lodge Montana you'll need less.
 
More rifle/load info is needed to properly answer accurately.
Bottom line is that if you really are going to shoot 1000 yards anywhere but the internet you need more scope.


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 16:59
Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Depending on your rifle 168 matchkings might be unstable past
Bottom line is that if you really are going to shoot 1000 yards anywhere but the internet you need more scope.
 
Yep...


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 17:03
Dale,
 
In the pits, we could always tell by the 1st shot down range (as long as it didn't ground out before the target) who had enough velocity and who didn't.  The folks with the 168's the sound wasn't the usual "crack" but more like a plop and an oblong (keyhole) hole in the target.
 
By the way, on another post I saw you (I believe it was you) had a Leupold 6.5-20x40, w/SF & varmint,  How dou you like that model of scope, been thinking about getting on myself.
 
Jim
 


Posted By: Ring Master
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 21:03
Boy, you opened up a can of worms, didn't you??  1000 yards is asking allot from a 308, but it can be done. If 600 yards is your home range, then that's all you really need to worry about. At 600 yards you should be able to make 4 out of 5 head shots on a single perp target with a good spotter. If your spotter can read the trace there's no reason you should miss the next 4 head shots.
 
RM


-------------
Ron
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/08/2009 at 21:55
RC,
 I don't disagree a lot with what you had to say other than that I was trying to answer HIS question, not yours.
Fully agree that if he purchased your US Optics scope, he would be MUCH better off.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 01:45
Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

If you're in Seattle Washington it will require more elevation than you might have available. If you're in Red Lodge Montana you'll need less.

Holy crap, you must be stalking me! 


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 09:16
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  


If his scope only has 50MOA of total adjustment, a 25MOA or more would be bad. 


Why set up a 1,000-yard gun that will only see 1,000 yards twice a year at most?  Have you ever shot at 1,000 yards?

I'd say keep the 20MOA base, figure out the 600-yard shot, then use the reticle to adjust for the rest. If your mounting isn't perfect and your internals aren't dead-on; with a 25 or 30MOA base, you will run out of adjustment room on the horizontal axis, which will severely limit your adjustment on the vertical.  Also, scopes in the mid-price range don't do particularly well at the extremes of their adjustment range (at least that has been my experience.)

It isn't what you'll want to hear, but I'd recommend a scope made more for long-range target shooting.  If yours is a Monarch like the one I had, that reticle will cover allot'o target at 1,000 yards.
I just read this whole post.  You need to lay off the rancid and the coolaid, dude.  He was asking about a scope he had in hand not one someone may potentially sell him. 
Yes, in wind conditions, windage adjustment range will be poor, but I hold for wind more than I dial, anyway.  Comes from shooting M1's and M14's at a thousand yards with iron sights.  His mechanical zero will be at about 25-26 minutes on that scope (if it is perfectly in line with advertised range).  However, given all the environmental effects, altitude, etc, for that round at 1000 yds, he would need about 40-43 minutes of elevation.  With a 25 MOA rail, he would have a little left.  A 30 MOA rail would provide some margin.  Cheek weld will be impacted by the increased height above the bore, but a cheekpad or adjustable stock will take care of that. 
It is not my business to ask him why he wants to make a long shot once or twice a year.  That is his business. 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 10:50
The USO is gone so no troubles.  HE mentioned USO, I just let him know what his options were.


I agree that the 25MOA or 30MOA might work, but I've seldom seen things work exactly as planned.


My intention was not to "tell him" anything, just to have him think about how much he wanted to put into a 1,000 yard gun when it'l only see 1,000 yards once or twice a year.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 12:17
RC, I want to apologize for that "outburst".  My head is kind of screwed up over the loss of a good friend and potential loss of another.  I don't even know what I meant, much less what you meant.  I need to just get offline for a while. 
 I beg your pardon.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 12:23

I want to shoot 2-300yds regularly and 600 yards often but have the capacity to shoot 1000yds. Why? If I go to the 1000yd range and i will, I do not want to be limited by the optic I purchased. I want to be limited by personal ability, not by my gear.



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 12:32
I would recommend getting a super sniper 10x it will do all you need and they are not expensive, yet a very good scope.

You scope is just not going to do what you want to do.  Optimally for a 100 to 1000 yard .308 you need a scope with 70 MOA minimum internal adjustment and a 20 MOA base.  That will give you a little extra adjustment at both end of the spectrum.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 12:39
I am sending it back, I noticed the box says 93% light transmission, where Nikon advertises 95% I must have got a bastard batch. I just wanted a nikon like my brothers old tactical, it has 70 MOA and great glass. I guess Nikon isn't what they use to be..


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 13:18
  • M118 = M118 Special Ball - 173gr FMJ-BT (2550fps)
  • M118LR = M118LR Special Ball - 175gr HPBT (2580fps)
  • F-175gr = http://www.qksrv.net/click-827769-1481430?url=http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept%5Fid=20207&sku=67462&imgid=&mscssid=MXAD5MQVH99F8J072K8L070VXE1C83C9 - Federal Gold Medal Match .308 175gr HPBT (2600fps)
  • F-168gr = http://www.qksrv.net/click-827769-1481430?url=http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept%5Fid=20207&sku=67121&imgid=&mscssid=MXAD5MQVH99F8J072K8L070VXE1C83C9 - Federal Gold Medal Match .308 168gr HPBT (2600fps)

Bullet Drop (Inches)

100y

91m

200y

183m

300y

275m

400y

366m

500y

458m

600y

549m

700y

641m

800y

732m

900y

824m

1000y

915m

M118

+16.5

+30.0

+36.0

+34.0

+22.5

Zero

-35.0

-80.0

-144.0

-230.0

M118LR

+17.4

+30.4

+36.3

+34.2

+22.6

Zero

-35.7

-86.8

-156.1

-246.7

F-175gr

+17.2

+29.9

+35.8

+33.9

+22.6

Zero

-34.8

-84.9

-153.7

-243.1

F-168gr

+17.7

+31.0

+37.2

+35.4

+23.5

Zero

-36.7

-90.8

-164.3

-261.7

Energy (Muzzle - M118 - 2605Ft-Lbs., M118LR - 2586, Fed. Match 175gr - 2625, Fed. Match 168gr - 2520)

M118

2265

1940

1678

1400

1195

1035

865

735

635

545

M118LR

2247

1944

1675

1436

1225

1037

877

743

634

547

F-175gr

2285

1975

1705

1460

1245

1060

900

765



-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 13:50
Kickboxer, I am sorry for your loss.


I understand your post and, on most points agree.

Hunter, a 10X supersniper is a good scope and won't break the bank.  It has enough windage to get you out to 1,000.

You gotta spend allot more to start getting more scope.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 17:41

As stated previously, I've been down this road.  I have a 40-X I picked up in trade several years ago that was set up for both a match rifle and a scopped belly gun.  The match sights came with it but I had to get the scope.  I saw a nice Nikon 6.5-20x44 (dot) and I snatched it up.  Unbeknownst to me, it didn’t have enough internal elevation, which has become painfull aparant.  Anyway, my thoughts were the same as yours, shoot mostly 200,300, 500(600) & the occasional 1000 yds.  

 

At the time, my main experience was in Highpower Service Rifle.  Sure, I had shot scoped rifles but since I just borrowed them, basicaly I loaded and shot them.  With the Nikon and the bases that came on the 40-X, it was great out to 700 yards, after that, there was no more adjustments.  I went to the drawing board and tried shims, new bases and so on....  In addition to the 20 MOA base, I also purchased a set of Burris scope rings w/offset inserts because the 20 MOA base was to much (nice for 300 to 1000 but was too high at 100 & 200 yds).   I was able to use the Burris because rings with those offset inserts you can roll them to reduce the full value and adjust the windage travel if needed.

 

I was able to make it work from 100 to 1000 yards but the problem was the scope just wasn’t repeatable at 100/200 because the mecahnical limitations were starting to show their hand.  In fact, I just got back a few minutes ago and set the scope up for 100 to 600 yards and it performed admirably.

 

IMO, Nikons are good scopes, good clarity and repeatability.  But, they have short comings when it comes to internal adjustments and reticle choices.  Long story short, I’m forced to rescope for 1000 yd shooting.

 

Just a FYI, Regarding the velocities of the various loads posted previously, military ammo (M118 & M118LR) is chronographed 78 feet from the muzzle.  Can’t say about the other commercial loads mentioned.

 

HTH



Posted By: Ring Master
Date Posted: February/09/2009 at 20:55
I normally would not say anything about a member's avatar but I Would to say to Supertool73 - Your avatar is just over the top SICK.
 
RM


-------------
Ron
NRA Life Member


Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: February/16/2009 at 21:56
I'm In agreement with using the super snipers for long range. You might never need to shoot 1000 yds, but if the moment arises, then you need to know you can. Even on my hunting rifle, I've gone to a 30mm tube scope. (SS 16x) I hunt in an area where I can sit in my shack and watch most of 150 acres and you just can't cover that distance reliably with a one inch tube. With a 20 minute base on my Rem 700 .308, I have 68 MOA of elevation adjustment with a 100 yd zero. My brother has a Nikon too, but then again he's not covering corn fields in November either.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: February/16/2009 at 23:44

Kickboxer - Hang in there Buddy let us know if we can help.

Supertool that avitar does get a bit old unlike the one Bricat has which I could watch for hours.

Moosetrax - Im sure you will figure this out if you havent but that 16x wont be very bright in low light, I kind of know what you are working with since I have hunted a 20x SS before and subsequently changed to the 10x which I find much more useful overall and a 10x will make a thousand yard deer look like open sights at 100 so that should be doable although I would rather be much closer like under 300 yds.

 



-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: hunterco
Date Posted: February/16/2009 at 23:49
I've got it down, I'm lookng for a new optic...boo hoo
 
I must have MOA, this is for an FN SPR A1 308 and I will mostly shoot inside 600yds but you need to "be able" to hit 1000k or reach the potential of the round..


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: February/17/2009 at 13:38
In truth, 1,000 yards is beyond the potential of the round.

Though it can get there, it ain't happy to do so under most circumstances.

My advice is to set the gun up for what is needed and see what it can do at the extremes.  I cwould nots et the gun up for the extreme and see what it can do at 3-600.


The 10X SuperSniper is a good scope and will serve you well.  There are better scopes but they cost MUCH more.  At some point the law of diminishing returns will kick in (I am told, looking through Victory and USO and Premier, I haven't seen taht point yet - but we all define it differently.)

Good luck, and don't spend too much time pouring over spec sheets, anyone can polish a turd, look around at the actual scopes.  And since you cannot look through a SuperSniper, trust us, and send it back if you don't like it - but you will!


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: moosetrax
Date Posted: February/17/2009 at 17:42
To my imaginary friend, or Urimaginaryfrnd, I know what you mean. It gets a little dark around sunset. I like the 16x, but I'd still rather have a 10x side focus. I'd try trading it in, but it has about 3 coats of krylon on it. It's an absolute dream during the day, but the biggest problem is gettin focused at extended ranges close to sunset. The closer it is, the better, even at dusk. Either way, nothing is perfect. I got two in the freezer and the picture in the photo contest. And yes, that's what I was wearing when I killed the deer.



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