Print Page | Close Window

SHOT Show 2009 impressions

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14733
Printed Date: March/29/2024 at 05:19
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: SHOT Show 2009 impressions
Posted By: koshkin
Subject: SHOT Show 2009 impressions
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 01:20
file:///C:%5CUsers%5CILYA%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml -

SHOT Show 2009



I originally planned to start at one end of the convention center and work my way over to the other end.  That did not quite pan out since there were a few people I wanted to get together with, so I ended up running back and forth a fair bit.  It is a good idea from an exercise standpoint, I suppose.


Here is a brief rundown of the new stuff:


Vortex:

They have new high magnification 15x56 binoculars called Kaibab.  This may be a beginning of a new line higher up than the Razor, although visually Kaibab looked like a Viper on steroids.  Mechanics were very smooth and glass looked pretty impressive (the best I can tell on a show floor).  Kaibab has some sort of a new-for-Vortex coating that is hydrophobic and scratch resistant.  The same coating is also added to the Razor line of binoculars.

Vortex is also introducing a new high end spotter called Razor HD.  It is a 20-60x85 model  (also available with a 30x eyepiece, I think).  Looking at those halogen lights near the roof, I was able to comfortably resolve the inner detail on the reflectors with no haze or evidence of CA.  Beyond that I would need to test the spotter outdoors.   Mechanically it looked good.  Focus knob is nice and smooth and it looks like it has enough eyerelief for eyeglass wearers.   It should be a strong competitor to similarly sized Nikon and Pentax spotters.  Money-wise it may end up being a bit more expensive than those two, so it may come into competition with some more expensive Kowa and Euro spotters.


Update on upcoming Vortex tactical scopes: Vortex guys asked me to stop by again a couple of days into the show to talk about their upcoming line tactical scopes.  It turned out that they planned to do more than just talk: they had two nearly-fully-done prototypes of the new Razor line of scopes to show me.  The scopes I saw were: 5-20x50 with a 35mm tube and 1-4x24 with 30mm tube.  Both scopes have FFP illuminated reticles and exposed knobs and are made in Japan.  It certainly looked like a lot of thought went into their design, since I had comparatively little to pick on (and I assure you I can usually find something to pick on).  The knobs had very nice feel to them.  The glass looked good to the extent that I could tell.  The reticles had interesting designs, that I think are very functional.  In terms of user friendliness, every scope is an exercise in compromises: on one hand you want a streamlined appearance so that the various protrusions do not catch on stuff.  On the other hand, you need those protrusions to be able to make adjustments easily and without looking if need be.  I think these new Vortex scopes strike the right balance.  Beyond that, there is really not much I can say about performance until I get to put them onto rifles and torture them a little.  When these are ready for production I should be able to get my hands on them.  The prices still need to be set, but it seems like they will undercut their competition by a non-trivial amount.  Performance wise, I think these will go after IOR and Nightforce above all else, and I would not be surprised if they take some sales from the really expensive scopes like Zeiss/Hensoldt, Premier and S&B.  The first version of the 5-20x50 will have MOA reticle and MOA knobs.  Mil/mil version will follow.  Further out, there will be other models in the Razor line to fill other niches.


 

Hawke Optics:

Hawke is a pretty well established British company that is just now making inroads into the US market.  I have previously acquired a set of their 8x43 Frontier ED binoculars (a review is forthcoming).  I had never seen their scopes before though.  Frontier and Frontier SF scopes are made in Japan by Kenko (same outfit, I think, that makes Super Sniper scopes, some Sightrons and a few others).  The rest of the scopes are made in China.  Several scope lines (Chinese made ones) have an interesting holdover reticle called MAP.  I will not go into detail on that since there is a bunch of information on it on their website.  It is kinda like Zeiss’ Rapid-Z  for people who can not afford Zeiss.  The people in the booth were pretty friendly and I will look to get a couple of their scopes for review.  I will decide which ones later on.  Frontier is a dead ringer for Sightron S1, so I am pretty familiar with that one. Frontier SF looks very nice and 4-16x versions were impressively compact.  I will definitely look at one of those and one of the Chinese made scopes with MAP reticle.

 


Zeiss:

There are now top-end Victory scopes with SFP reticles including Rapid-Z.  I suppose they are trying ot expand their influence in the US hunting market.  They have a BDC knob of some sort called ASV and a couple of new version of the Rapid-Z reicle.   There is also a new pistol scope (a first from a Euro maker) in the Conquest line.  It looked very nice and I wonder if it will work well as a scout scope (which is a bit more up my alley).  There is a new 8x26 rangefinder with trajectory information built in (same as in the 8x45 Victory RF binocular/rangefinder).  It looks like Zeiss is not happy with the fact that Swaro 8x30 is the highest end LRF on the market.  The new Zeiss LRF looks like a worthy competitor for it.

Zeiss also had a prototype of a combination camera spotter, called Photoscope 85 T* FL (15-45x85).  It is an interesting design since the variable magnification is achieved by varying the focal length of the objective not the eyepiece.  I have somewhat mixed feeling on how it is executed.  We'll see what the production model looks like.



Swarovski

There were some new variants of Z6 scopes on display, which looked as good as other Z6 scopes (which is pretty good).  3-18x50 is a nice configuration that can satisfy a lot of different needs.  Otherwise, there was not much new there.  Top notch (and top price) products.

I got to mess with the Ballistic knob a little and it seemd like a nice thing.  Then again, I also like Kahles' Multizero.



Trijicon:

A couple of new Accupoint scopes: 1-4x24 and 5-20x50, both with SFP reticles.  They seem like nice scopes with nothing exceptional except for Trijicons highly visible reticles.  I am not sure if the ones I saw are production models or prototypes, but the 5-20x50 needs better knobs.  Otherwise, good scopes with Trijicon's trademark reticle.  As far as the 5-20x50 goes, I kinda have mixed feelings.  It is a nice scope, but Trijicon's "special" feature is the reticle.  I am not sure how important that is in a high magnification, long range scope.  Now with a 1-4x24, that super visible reticle can really help Trijicon stand out among the competition.  S&B Short




Replies:
Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 04:31
Thank you for keeping us posted. At R10 to the $ we in South Africa appreciate the cheap seat.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 05:27
Thank you, Koshkin!!
This is a real blessing for those of us who couldn't attend SHOT.


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: swtucker
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 06:21
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Thank you, Koshkin!!
This is a real blessing for those of us who couldn't attend SHOT.
 
+1


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 06:38
 
 
 
                                                                           Eat and Drink     Cool.   Great information.   
 
   New IOR stuff and, maybe KAPS scopes.....sounds like fun....( too bad I don't have any money.....Shocked )    


-------------
Be sure to visit,

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=50 - THE ED SHOW

Ju Cucarachas!!!


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 07:30
Koshkin, I, too, thank you for sharing your unique perspectives about these optical devices.





-------------


Tom





Posted By: martin3175
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 08:02
cool stuff ...much appreciated


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 08:05
Originally posted by swtucker swtucker wrote:

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Thank you, Koshkin!!
This is a real blessing for those of us who couldn't attend SHOT.
 
+1


+2


-------------
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 08:40
Sounds like fun, I wish I were there.

-------------
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 08:59
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by swtucker swtucker wrote:

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Thank you, Koshkin!!
This is a real blessing for those of us who couldn't attend SHOT.
 
+1


+2
+3

-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 12:22
im highly anticipating the info ilya shares with us about leupold and kahles

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 12:29

+4



-------------
take em!


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 13:47
Good info, ILya, thank you.

I have toyed with one of the Hawke scopes. It was pretty good, actually.  No real complaints about it.  I really liked the reticles, as I remember.  One called the SR6 or 12 or some multiple of 3.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 13:52
don't think there will be much on Kahles, since they aren't there!

-------------
take em!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 13:54
really??? how do you know that? is there a web site with a list of who is there? or are you saying that because they dont have anybody importing for them currently?


nevermind i see where koshkin posted a list, thats too bad to hear about them.


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: jjyoung
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 15:39
I wonder if the glass in the new burris six X series is upgraded over the signiture selects.


Posted By: JGRaider
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 16:34
Koshkin, thanks for your time and efforts.  Much appreciated, great job as usual.


Posted By: rifle looney
Date Posted: January/16/2009 at 16:53
ME.........TOO!........THANKS.

-------------




Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/17/2009 at 11:43
I need to attend SHOT next year!

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: bagderRed
Date Posted: January/17/2009 at 12:23
Thank you Koshkin.
 
Signed,
BadgerRed


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: January/17/2009 at 14:12
Thanks ILya! I'm a bit surprised about Leupold's new line or lack thereof. With all the hype I expected something a bit exciting, oh well.
Sam


-------------

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/17/2009 at 14:16
Anything new with the Aimpoint gang, Koshkin?

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: January/17/2009 at 18:41
Originally posted by jjyoung jjyoung wrote:

I wonder if the glass in the new burris six X series is upgraded over the signiture selects.


My guess is that is will be the same glass.


-------------
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: Heavishot
Date Posted: January/18/2009 at 14:50
Thanks for your report.  I'm looking forward to the rest of the story.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 19:25
Thanks for the time and effort you spent on your summaries, Ilya!Excellent  Some interesting stuff there!

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 19:30
I am working on the summary for the remainder of the show and on the wrap-up.

I will concatenate all of my impressions on the subject and put them in the  first post of the thread.  I am also thinking of making this thread a sticky for a couple of weeks.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 19:44
Thanks for the time and effort. I look forward to the wrap up.


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 20:08
Me too, thanks ILya!

-------------

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: Boom Stick
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I am working on the summary for the remainder of the show and on the wrap-up.

I will concatenate all of my impressions on the subject and put them in the  first post of the thread.  I am also thinking of making this thread a sticky for a couple of weeks.

ILya


I look forward to your wrap-up man, and I'm anxiously hoping that you got a chance to take a look at Vortex's line of tactical scopes since I haven't heard barely anything about them.  I've been waiting for word on them to decide which scope to purchase for quite a while now.... anyways, thanks for the write up.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 21:37
I did look at Vortex'upcoming tactical scopes and they looked quite good.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 22:58
Thanks for all of your time on our behalf. I sincerely appreciate the info.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: huff143
Date Posted: January/20/2009 at 23:02
Did you get a chance to take a gander at the Leatherwood Uni-dial? 


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 02:03
Gentlemen, the first post in the thread has been updated with the whole write-up. Take a look when you get a chance.  Keep in mind that it is pretty long.

I will glance at it one more time tomorrow to correct the spelling errors.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 02:04
Oh, one more thing, unless there are objections, I will keep this thread a "sticky" for a little bit.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: medic52
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 07:09
Mr Koshkin, Thank you for your report. Interesting reading. I have purchased a Hawke Optic scope with the SR12. Still tring to get use to it but so far for the money not bad.....again Thanks

-------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G.K. Chesterton


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 07:17
ILya,
Thanks for all the info. Sounds like you were a tad bit busy.Thanks again.


-------------
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 13:56
ILya,  many thanks for the info.  Appreciate the information and the time you spent.

Thanks!!!!


-------------
If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 14:21
ILya, on the 1-4x trijicon are they going to be offering different reticle choices or is it just the same ole post reticle.  I would love it if the put in the ACOG BDC reticle that would work at 4x.

Thanks for your time with the write up, I appreciate all your info.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 16:35
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

ILya, on the 1-4x trijicon are they going to be offering different reticle choices or is it just the same ole post reticle.  I would love it if the put in the ACOG BDC reticle that would work at 4x.

Thanks for your time with the write up, I appreciate all your info.


I think initially, it will be the post/triangle reticle and #4 with illuminated dot.  I am not sure if they plan to offer other reticles further out.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 17:13
Koshkin,

Thanks again for all the great info. Fascinating comparison of the S&B, Hensoldt and Premier scopes. I'd probably go for the Premier. However, the Nightforce 2.5-10X32 I'm about to receive is already stretching my scope budget, along with the Direct Mount. So USO and those three are out of my league for now.

Interesting comments on NF. I have been curious about the mixed comments they get. Folks over at longrangehunting.com by and large love them. Yet (for reasons unknown to me) SWFA for instance doesn't carry them. My one email request to NF was promptly answered and quite satisfactorily. I guess if the optics are better than my Leupold that won't be an issue to me (although with the Swaro rangefinder I now have I do know what good glass looks like). I hope I like their reticles more than you do. Mostly, I went with what is a fairly expensive scope because I want highly reliable mechanics. I probably won't push it to its limits since I tend to baby scopes (and rifles) and really just want go push out to 600 yards.

Jon


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 17:34
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Truthfully, there are a lot of excellent full size binoculars available, but the 33mm Kowas really stood out to my eyes among the mid-size binos (it would be interesting to have Ted pit these against his 8x32 Leica Ultraivd HDs; if I get my hands on a pair, I'll send them over to him).
 
That would be great!  I appreciate the suggestion!  I've always wanted to get my hands on the Kowa Genesis binos, and if their Prominar spotters are any indication of what I could expect, I anticipate they'd probably be superb.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 21:16
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Koshkin,

Thanks again for all the great info. Fascinating comparison of the S&B, Hensoldt and Premier scopes. I'd probably go for the Premier. However, the Nightforce 2.5-10X32 I'm about to receive is already stretching my scope budget, along with the Direct Mount. So USO and those three are out of my league for now.

Interesting comments on NF. I have been curious about the mixed comments they get. Folks over at longrangehunting.com by and large love them. Yet (for reasons unknown to me) SWFA for instance doesn't carry them. My one email request to NF was promptly answered and quite satisfactorily. I guess if the optics are better than my Leupold that won't be an issue to me (although with the Swaro rangefinder I now have I do know what good glass looks like). I hope I like their reticles more than you do. Mostly, I went with what is a fairly expensive scope because I want highly reliable mechanics. I probably won't push it to its limits since I tend to baby scopes (and rifles) and really just want go push out to 600 yards.

Jon


Nightforce makes very nice scopes.  Mechanically, I think they are second to none.  Optically, they are decent, but not good enough for the price point (IMO).

I do not especially care for their attitude, but perhaps your luck with them is better than mine.

My take on what to expect in a scope is a bit different.  Every scope I buy for my use, I expect to be mechanically sound.  If it is not, then it is a paperweight, no matter how good everything else looks.  Mechanical quality, to me, is not a competitive advantage, but rather a necessary attribute of every scope I use.

To me, what differentiates scopes from one another are optical quality and specification differences (adjustment range, reticle selection, knob type, etc).

Nightforce scopes have very extensive reticle selection in a number of configurations.  Specification/feature wise, these are very nice scopes.  The only letdown in Nighforce scopes is optical quality.  In good light, they are pretty decent and resolve reasonably well.  However, they are not very contrasty and color management is a little suspect.  In low light, I have been (considering the price range) somewhat unimpressed by Nightforce.

Nowadays, in terms of price Nightforce competes against the likes of Zeiss Victory, Swaro Z6, S&B, and IOR (IOR is probably their most direct competitor).

Nightforce offeres some reticle designs not offered by others and now it also has zero stop available on just about every scope.   Optically, every scope I mention above is better than Nightforce to my eyes.

For example, a direct competitor to the Nightforce you bought is either IOR 2-12x32 or the new IOR 1-12x36.  The choice then becomes what is more important to you: Nightforce reticle or IOR glass (as well as more flexible magnification and side focus in the 2-12x32 or BDC and larger objective lens in the 2-12x36).

Once again it all comes down to what is more important to you.

In practical terms, your shooting is not going to be very different whether you get similarly configured Nightforce or IOR or upcoming Vortex Razor (which, I think, will really cut into Nightforce sales).  This is more about what you like the most, rather than simply something that is sufficient for the purpose.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 21:53
"upcoming Vortex Razor"  ILya, what do you mean by this?  Are they introducing something new or do you just mean they are new to the field..... as in up and coming?

-------------
take em!


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 22:12
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

"upcoming Vortex Razor"  ILya, what do you mean by this?  Are they introducing something new or do you just mean they are new to the field..... as in up and coming?


Vortex is introducing a new line of Razor riflescopes (see the first post in the thread).

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Horsemany
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 22:29
Once again telling it straight Koshkin.  Thanks for all the info.  I appreciate an unbiased opinion when I read one.  That can be rare on hobby forums.


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/22/2009 at 23:05
I'm pretty impressed with Vortex - both with the binos I've had (but traded towards a rangefinder, which I needed more) and customer service - as well as with Sightron. I almost got an SIII mil-dot instead but was able to knock $200 off the NF courtesy of Microsoft and eBay so that helps increase the optical quality:dollar ratio. Part of it to was the somewhat smaller form factor. Otherwise, the first higher-end scope I really thought hard about was the IOR 2-12x32. Seems like a great match for a .308 and the MP-8 reticle is hard to beat.

My experience with NF is limited to one email exchange (and a fairly innocuous question). I'd be more impressed with them if you'd been able to say that they accepted your comments constructively. It bothers me when anyone thinks their product has no room left for improvement. Who knows? Maybe I'll love it and will never part with it. Maybe I'll sell it off to someone who values the name and try the Vortex. One thing I'll say, is judging by the tremendous backlog on orders on the NF 2.5-10x32, Vortex might make some serious inroads with a similar scope priced below a grand.  


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 01:39
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I'm pretty impressed with Vortex - both with the binos I've had (but traded towards a rangefinder, which I needed more) and customer service - as well as with Sightron. I almost got an SIII mil-dot instead but was able to knock $200 off the NF courtesy of Microsoft and eBay so that helps increase the optical quality:dollar ratio. Part of it to was the somewhat smaller form factor. Otherwise, the first higher-end scope I really thought hard about was the IOR 2-12x32. Seems like a great match for a .308 and the MP-8 reticle is hard to beat.

My experience with NF is limited to one email exchange (and a fairly innocuous question). I'd be more impressed with them if you'd been able to say that they accepted your comments constructively. It bothers me when anyone thinks their product has no room left for improvement. Who knows? Maybe I'll love it and will never part with it. Maybe I'll sell it off to someone who values the name and try the Vortex. One thing I'll say, is judging by the tremendous backlog on orders on the NF 2.5-10x32, Vortex might make some serious inroads with a similar scope priced below a grand.  


A couple of comments:

-I think Sightron S3 are the best Japanese made scopes currently in production
-Regardless of my opinion of Nightforce as a company, they do make good reliable scopes.  While I may not think that Nightforce is the best choice, it is never a bad choice.
-I had the IOR 2-12x32 on my 6.5Gendel for some time and I dearly regret selling it (needed the funds for IOR 3-18x42FFP).  That is an awesome scope in a very usable configuration.

As a side note, with all that having been said, some time this year I will somehow figure out how to get a Premier Heritage scope to my collection.  Yes, I am that impressed.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 05:52
I have Vortex Razor binos and think the glass is excellent. I wonder if the glass on their upcoming Razor scope line will be as good, if it is I'll buy one. The problem with that is, I'll have to buy a new rifle to mount it onYippee

-------------

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 07:45

Just a bump up!!!! This is to much great info to let slide.

 

Thanks ILya.

 

Oh yeah was you able to take a look at what I requested?

 



-------------
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: carbuyersfriend
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 09:44
Koshkin,
Just like all these others "THANKS for the WRITEUP" !!! As a newbie to this forum I am very appreciative of how much there is to learn about optics. Your input makes it a whole bunch more interesting. Having been to a couple of SEMA shows I'll bet when you finished your feet were sore and your head was about to explode !!! Thanks Again
MNF
Yippee
 


-------------
Have a great day ...unless you have something else planned


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 10:41
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Koshkin,
Interesting comments on NF. I have been curious about the mixed comments they get. Folks over at longrangehunting.com by and large love them. Yet (for reasons unknown to me) SWFA for instance doesn't carry them. My one email request to NF was promptly answered and quite satisfactorily. I guess if the optics are better than my Leupold that won't be an issue to me (although with the Swaro rangefinder I now have I do know what good glass looks like). I hope I like their reticles more than you do. Mostly, I went with what is a fairly expensive scope because I want highly reliable mechanics. I probably won't push it to its limits since I tend to baby scopes (and rifles) and really just want go push out to 600 yards.

Jon


Nightforce makes very nice scopes.  Mechanically, I think they are second to none.  Optically, they are decent, but not good enough for the price point (IMO).

I do not especially care for their attitude, but perhaps your luck with them is better than mine.

My take on what to expect in a scope is a bit different.  Every scope I buy for my use, I expect to be mechanically sound.  If it is not, then it is a paperweight, no matter how good everything else looks.  Mechanical quality, to me, is not a competitive advantage, but rather a necessary attribute of every scope I use.

To me, what differentiates scopes from one another are optical quality and specification differences (adjustment range, reticle selection, knob type, etc).

Nightforce scopes have very extensive reticle selection in a number of configurations.  Specification/feature wise, these are very nice scopes.  The only letdown in Nighforce scopes is optical quality.  In good light, they are pretty decent and resolve reasonably well.  However, they are not very contrasty and color management is a little suspect.  In low light, I have been (considering the price range) somewhat unimpressed by Nightforce.

Nowadays, in terms of price Nightforce competes against the likes of Zeiss Victory, Swaro Z6, S&B, and IOR (IOR is probably their most direct competitor).

Nightforce offeres some reticle designs not offered by others and now it also has zero stop available on just about every scope.   Optically, every scope I mention above is better than Nightforce to my eyes.

For example, a direct competitor to the Nightforce you bought is either IOR 2-12x32 or the new IOR 1-12x36.  The choice then becomes what is more important to you: Nightforce reticle or IOR glass (as well as more flexible magnification and side focus in the 2-12x32 or BDC and larger objective lens in the 2-12x36).

Once again it all comes down to what is more important to you.
 
This is a good example of how different people place a different value on various attributes of a scope depending on their intended use.  Koshkin doesn't care for the NF's very thin, skeleton-like reticles because they get lost in low light.  While this is true, I have an entirely different take on this.  I own 2 NF scopes, and I never use them in low light.  In fact, other than to show people it has illumination, I never even turn on the illuminated reticle on these scopes!  My NF scopes are used entirely for long range varmint and target shooting in good light, where I want the thinnest reticle possible.  For that use, I can hardly think of a better scope.  I love their version of the mil dot, for example, because it is an open design, with open dots and outer bars that don't obscure much of the target, for super precision shooting.  I also have an IOR 4-14X50, and yes, it does have superior optics to the NF, with a much more expansive view, less tunnel vision, and sharper image out to the edge.  The IOR MP8 is a fantastic reticle.  I like it better than any of NF's ranging reticles, but I like the NF reticle selection better overall.  The IOR is noticeably superior to NF in low light performance.  However, I much prefer the NF knobs, side focus, and overall external appearance.  I also think the NF resolution in the very center of the field is a tad better than my IOR, even though it has a smaller sweet spot than the IOR.  The optics in NF scopes is supplied by L.O.W., which is a good Japanese manufacturer that makes many very good name brand scopes, notably the Bushnell Elite series.  I do agree with Koshkin that the optics could be a bit better for the NF price tag, especially the new F1 first focal series that tops $2K, but the optics are still pretty darn good, plenty good enough for my use.  It's worth noting I bought my NF 3.5-15X50 at a gun show for $900 new, considerably less than retail, so I got a solid scope for the money.  If you shop around, you can buy some of the 2nd focal plane versions of the NXS series for much less than a Zeiss, S&B, USO, Premier, etc. of similar magnification range -- usually at least $500 less.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 12:29
Originally posted by SamC SamC wrote:

I have Vortex Razor binos and think the glass is excellent. I wonder if the glass on their upcoming Razor scope line will be as good, if it is I'll buy one. The problem with that is, I'll have to buy a new rifle to mount it onYippee


It is too early to talk about glass, but what I saw on the prototypes looked good.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 12:31
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Just a bump up!!!! This is to much great info to let slide.

 

Thanks ILya.

 

Oh yeah was you able to take a look at what I requested?

 



The thread is stickied.  But good try.

Yes, I did look at what you requested.  Very nice.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 13:45
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Just a bump up!!!! This is to much great info to let slide.

 

Thanks ILya.

 

Oh yeah was you able to take a look at what I requested?

 



The thread is stickied.  But good try.

Yes, I did look at what you requested.  Very nice.

ILya
 
I had to bring the tread back to your attention Bow"O GREAT ONE" Bow.


-------------
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: January/23/2009 at 19:29
Thanks again ILya and please let us know if you get a hold  of a Vortex Razor rifle scope for review.
Sam


-------------

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: optik
Date Posted: January/26/2009 at 22:06
ILya, It was a great review! But I would expect nothing less!


Posted By: NV Hunter
Date Posted: January/26/2009 at 23:45
I am very interested in the new Leica riflescopes.  I understand they have almost 4" of eye relief through the full power range and the short eye piece design that will make for easy mounting with most all rifles.  A feature not all European scopes can't claim.  I have never seen a Leica product that wasn't top notch optically.  MHO...    NV Hunter


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: January/27/2009 at 22:14
will we have to sell our house to buy one though?

-------------
take em!


Posted By: NV Hunter
Date Posted: January/28/2009 at 11:01
I was told they are in the $1,800 dollar range... That's a lot of dough, but I remember spending almost $200 bucks for a pair of Danner boots back in 1980 (WOW am I getting old!)  I could of bought all kinds of boots for under $100 bucks but the Danners were the best fitting boots I had ever put on my feet.  I used them for hunting only... 12 years later I sent them in for new soles.... they still fit great and I used them for another 5 years. When I figure the cost per year,  they were the cheapest boots I could of purchased!  Any top quality product costs more when you purchase it... but the joy of using quality gear and  knowing it will last for years is something to consider.  Quality is always cheaper in the long run.   Something to think about when purchasing gear.  NV Hunter  


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/28/2009 at 11:45
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Koshkin,
Interesting comments on NF. I have been curious about the mixed comments they get. Folks over at longrangehunting.com by and large love them. Yet (for reasons unknown to me) SWFA for instance doesn't carry them. My one email request to NF was promptly answered and quite satisfactorily. I guess if the optics are better than my Leupold that won't be an issue to me (although with the Swaro rangefinder I now have I do know what good glass looks like). I hope I like their reticles more than you do. Mostly, I went with what is a fairly expensive scope because I want highly reliable mechanics. I probably won't push it to its limits since I tend to baby scopes (and rifles) and really just want go push out to 600 yards.

Jon


Nightforce makes very nice scopes.  Mechanically, I think they are second to none.  Optically, they are decent, but not good enough for the price point (IMO).

I do not especially care for their attitude, but perhaps your luck with them is better than mine.

My take on what to expect in a scope is a bit different.  Every scope I buy for my use, I expect to be mechanically sound.  If it is not, then it is a paperweight, no matter how good everything else looks.  Mechanical quality, to me, is not a competitive advantage, but rather a necessary attribute of every scope I use.

To me, what differentiates scopes from one another are optical quality and specification differences (adjustment range, reticle selection, knob type, etc).

Nightforce scopes have very extensive reticle selection in a number of configurations.  Specification/feature wise, these are very nice scopes.  The only letdown in Nighforce scopes is optical quality.  In good light, they are pretty decent and resolve reasonably well.  However, they are not very contrasty and color management is a little suspect.  In low light, I have been (considering the price range) somewhat unimpressed by Nightforce.

Nowadays, in terms of price Nightforce competes against the likes of Zeiss Victory, Swaro Z6, S&B, and IOR (IOR is probably their most direct competitor).

Nightforce offeres some reticle designs not offered by others and now it also has zero stop available on just about every scope.   Optically, every scope I mention above is better than Nightforce to my eyes.

For example, a direct competitor to the Nightforce you bought is either IOR 2-12x32 or the new IOR 1-12x36.  The choice then becomes what is more important to you: Nightforce reticle or IOR glass (as well as more flexible magnification and side focus in the 2-12x32 or BDC and larger objective lens in the 2-12x36).

Once again it all comes down to what is more important to you.
 
This is a good example of how different people place a different value on various attributes of a scope depending on their intended use.  Koshkin doesn't care for the NF's very thin, skeleton-like reticles because they get lost in low light.  While this is true, I have an entirely different take on this.  I own 2 NF scopes, and I never use them in low light.  In fact, other than to show people it has illumination, I never even turn on the illuminated reticle on these scopes!  My NF scopes are used entirely for long range varmint and target shooting in good light, where I want the thinnest reticle possible.  For that use, I can hardly think of a better scope.  I love their version of the mil dot, for example, because it is an open design, with open dots and outer bars that don't obscure much of the target, for super precision shooting.  I also have an IOR 4-14X50, and yes, it does have superior optics to the NF, with a much more expansive view, less tunnel vision, and sharper image out to the edge.  The IOR MP8 is a fantastic reticle.  I like it better than any of NF's ranging reticles, but I like the NF reticle selection better overall.  The IOR is noticeably superior to NF in low light performance.  However, I much prefer the NF knobs, side focus, and overall external appearance.  I also think the NF resolution in the very center of the field is a tad better than my IOR, even though it has a smaller sweet spot than the IOR.  The optics in NF scopes is supplied by L.O.W., which is a good Japanese manufacturer that makes many very good name brand scopes, notably the Bushnell Elite series.  I do agree with Koshkin that the optics could be a bit better for the NF price tag, especially the new F1 first focal series that tops $2K, but the optics are still pretty darn good, plenty good enough for my use.  It's worth noting I bought my NF 3.5-15X50 at a gun show for $900 new, considerably less than retail, so I got a solid scope for the money.  If you shop around, you can buy some of the 2nd focal plane versions of the NXS series for much less than a Zeiss, S&B, USO, Premier, etc. of similar magnification range -- usually at least $500 less.



As most here know, I am a huge fan of Nightforce, great scope at a decent price, in my opinion.

Yes, they are cocky, but the reality of the thing is that their internals are among the most durable and precise of any optic on the market.  I agree entirely that their glass could be better (and, in the F1 series, it is). but - as stated by others before - color fidelity isn't always my primary concern, especially on a tactical scope.

Nightforce can be stand-offish in their attitude, and there is plentyof koolaid to go around for beleivers; however, few if any will say they are not durable, not VERY repeatable, and not adequate in most respects concerning glass quality.  IOR does ahve very nice glass, but Nightforce has never (at least in the past 15 years) had knowingly-defective scopes go out the door and waited for breakage to fix them.


I respect ILya's opinion but I am a Nightforce fan for more than the glass quality.  I hate their illumination adjustment and  hate that the ocular bell moves when I change power - moving the location of my Bulter Creek; but even with that, it is still one of the best pieces of gear for the price.

As Nightforce continues to raise their prices, they will sooon be in USO range (and even Heritage Premier) - a battle they will lose; but they are, for now at least, still a good deal on a great scope.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/28/2009 at 12:27
To each his own. 

A couple of comments though:

-Are you sure the glass in the F1 scope is better?  in the sample that I saw it was not.
-Poor color fidelity and contrast are pretty important for low light and that is where Nightforce really seems to suffer (it is not just a reticle issue).
-Nightforce attitude reminds me of the Leupold attitude, both companies will end up making themselves obsolete if they do not change that.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/28/2009 at 12:28
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 
I agree entirely that their glass could be better (and, in the F1 series, it is). 
 
...and  hate that the ocular bell moves when I change power - moving the location of my Bulter Creek.
 
Hey, Jeff, at the Dallas Safari Club show earlier this month, I saw the F1.  I asked their N. A. sales director (Kyle was his first name; I don't remember his last name) if the optics had been improved on the F1 and he told me no, it was exactly the same glass supplied by L.O.W. as used on the 2nd focal scopes.  He showed me all the guts of a typical NXS scope, which is very well constructed.  He said the increased cost was due to the redesign on the erector assy to acommodate the FFP reticle and the improvements to the elevation knob, namely the zero stop.  I couldn't see anything that justified the significant cost increase, so I was left with the impression they just increased the cost because they could.
 
The other difference I noticed is that the F1 scopes had a "made in USA" label on them instead of the "made in Japan" label on the SFP scopes, even though the glass comes from Japan.  I don't know what % of US-made parts content qualifies a manufacturer to label the product "made in USA" or how much more of the scope, if any, is US-made vs. the other NXS's labeled "made in Japan."
 
I made some product suggestions to him, one of them being the stationary ocular bell as used on their compact NXS and Benchrest scopes.  He told me that the reason the eyepiece rotates is because the US Navy requested it be that way so it would be easier to change power during combat, especially if the operator is wearing gloves, by simply grabbing the entire eyepiece.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/28/2009 at 12:38
I've only seen one and the glass looked better than the older 3.5-15x50 I had next to it.  Maybe my glass was just not as good in my older scope, or the new F1 I saw had great glass.

If it is the same,it is the same (and that take allot away from my interest in the new F1.)  Again, my only points of reference were the new one and my old one. 

I'm still a fan (of the older, less expensive version), and I don't equate them with leupold: Nightforce still makes a great product at a reasonable price, Leupold hasn't done that for years.  In 10 years, they might be equals, but today I'd drop $$ on a Nightforce any day but not on a Leupy.

Maybe it's just me.  Or I've had too much of the koolaid.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/28/2009 at 13:09
I'm with ya, Jeff.  I like them a lot too.  I paid considerably less than the current going rate for mine, so I got a great deal. 
 
I agree they aren't as good as their main competitors in low light, but again, I don't use mine at all in low light, since they are on my pd & target rifles where their super thin reticles and great mechanics really shine.  I have other scopes that I use for low light hunting that are much better suited to the task.  Again, just like any other piece of gear, suitability for the task all depends on the intended use.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: puppezed
Date Posted: February/05/2009 at 06:19
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Update on upcoming Vortex tactical scopes: Vortex guys asked me to stop by again a couple of days into the show to talk about their upcoming line tactical scopes.  It turned out that they planned to do more than just talk: they had two nearly-fully-done prototypes of the new Razor line of scopes to show me.  The scopes I saw were: 5-20x50 with a 35mm tube and 1-4x24 with 30mm tube.  Both scopes have FFP illuminated reticles and exposed knobs and are made in Japan.  It certainly looked like a lot of thought went into their design, since I had comparatively little to pick on (and I assure you I can usually find something to pick on).  The knobs had very nice feel to them.  The glass looked good to the extent that I could tell.  The reticles had interesting designs, that I think are very functional. 

Are there any pictures available of the new Vortex reticles found in 5-20x50?
If not, does it resemble some other known reticle?


Posted By: hunter12345
Date Posted: February/06/2009 at 11:12
Sightron Big Sky should do away with the S2 designation.The S2 is a good scope but the Big Sky S2 is a much better scope and I believe many people pass up the S2 Big Sky because of the higher price.Sightron should have marketed it as the Big Sky without the S2, because these are not the same scope the Big Sky in my opinion is the best scope coming from Japan today.   


Posted By: HOLLOWPOINT
Date Posted: February/06/2009 at 15:44
Sightron S I, S II, S III (instead of S II Big Sky) and S IV (instead of S III) would have been  more logical designations for the various lines of riflescopes.

-------------
Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good. Thomas Paine


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: February/06/2009 at 17:29
Originally posted by HOLLOWPOINT HOLLOWPOINT wrote:

Sightron S I, S II, S III (instead of S II Big Sky) and S IV (instead of S III) would have been  more logical designations for the various lines of riflescopes.


I suspect that Sightron ran into some trouble because their original S3 scopes have always had a 30mm tube and they wanted to keep that designation.  S2 Big Sky is indeed a pretty substantial improvement over the S2, but the S2 is no slouch in its own right.

Sightron faced a problem with the Big Sky scopes: how to slot a new scope line between S2 and S3.  Somehow, I do not think S2.5 would work all that well.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: February/11/2009 at 15:52
Since I love my Vortex Razor Binoculars I'm excited about the soon to be released Razor rifle scopes. I can't wait for a review from Ilya and Chris and would also be very interested in John B's take!
Sam


-------------

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: DCAMM94
Date Posted: February/20/2009 at 23:12

I was there.  That Premier is unbelievable glass, and love the reticle.



Posted By: greywolf
Date Posted: May/09/2009 at 07:37
Did I miss it in your report, or was there any mention of the Falcon line (like the Menace)?  I hear good things about it at its price-point.  Very interested in their new generation 4-14x44 FFP and 5-25x56 FFP scopes as a lower-cost alternative or "tweener" scope before I bump up to a Premier.
 
 


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/09/2009 at 18:55
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Did I miss it in your report, or was there any mention of the Falcon line (like the Menace)?  I hear good things about it at its price-point.  Very interested in their new generation 4-14x44 FFP and 5-25x56 FFP scopes as a lower-cost alternative or "tweener" scope before I bump up to a Premier.
 
 


I did not look at Falcon scopes.  I am sure they are decent scopes in their own right, but I can not, in good faith, recommend a scope with such a short warranty (it is either one year or five years, I can't quite remember).  It is not a very expensive scope, but it is not a cheap scope either.  In this price range, I expect the manufacturer to have more faith in the durability of their products.

Generally speaking, for people who want to get a tactical scope while they are saving up for a Premier/Hensoldt/S&B, I usually recommend a fixed power scope like the 10x42 Super Sniper.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: greywolf
Date Posted: May/09/2009 at 19:02
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Did I miss it in your report, or was there any mention of the Falcon line (like the Menace)?  I hear good things about it at its price-point.  Very interested in their new generation 4-14x44 FFP and 5-25x56 FFP scopes as a lower-cost alternative or "tweener" scope before I bump up to a Premier.
 
 


I did not look at Falcon scopes.  I am sure they are decent scopes in their own right, but I can not, in good faith, recommend a scope with such a short warranty (it is either one year or five years, I can't quite remember).  It is not a very expensive scope, but it is not a cheap scope either.  In this price range, I expect the manufacturer to have more faith in the durability of their products.

Generally speaking, for people who want to get a tactical scope while they are saving up for a Premier/Hensoldt/S&B, I usually recommend a fixed power scope like the 10x42 Super Sniper.

ILya
DOH!  I must have missed that about their warranty - damn, even Vortex et.al. offer Lifetime warranties.  Hmmmm.
 
So, 10x do me fine out to 750-1000 yards with a .308 or 6.5 Grendel shooting sillhouette targets for now?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/09/2009 at 19:11
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Did I miss it in your report, or was there any mention of the Falcon line (like the Menace)?  I hear good things about it at its price-point.  Very interested in their new generation 4-14x44 FFP and 5-25x56 FFP scopes as a lower-cost alternative or "tweener" scope before I bump up to a Premier.
 
 


I did not look at Falcon scopes.  I am sure they are decent scopes in their own right, but I can not, in good faith, recommend a scope with such a short warranty (it is either one year or five years, I can't quite remember).  It is not a very expensive scope, but it is not a cheap scope either.  In this price range, I expect the manufacturer to have more faith in the durability of their products.

Generally speaking, for people who want to get a tactical scope while they are saving up for a Premier/Hensoldt/S&B, I usually recommend a fixed power scope like the 10x42 Super Sniper.

ILya
DOH!  I must have missed that about their warranty - damn, even Vortex et.al. offer Lifetime warranties.  Hmmmm.
 
So, 10x do me fine out to 750-1000 yards with a .308 or 6.5 Grendel shooting sillhouette targets for now?


I think you will be fine with 10x for shooting fairly large targets out to the limits of both cartridges.  My Super Sniper typically sits on a 308 boltgun, but my range only goe sout to 700 yards.  I have not tried it to further ranges.  The same Super Sniper has also spent some time on my 6.5Grenndel AR.  I did not feel handicapped by the scope in either case.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: May/19/2009 at 16:51
Thanks for a great review,all that info & not enough MONEY [:}

-------------
Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net