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Remington Customer Service

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Topic: Remington Customer Service
Posted By: 8shots
Subject: Remington Customer Service
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 06:05
I have decided to approach Remington with the accuracy problems I am experiencing with my rifle. To date their local dealership has been helpfull in so far as they are prepared to have their gunsmith exaine the rifle for headspace, chamber alighnment etc and offering to send the rifle back to Remington USA. I say no way - I battled my backside off to get the rifle in my grubby paws, ain't going nowhere where I cannot see it.
Remington USA has replied very promptly to my first e-mail and requested more information. Will see where this leads to.



Replies:
Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 07:19
Even though this sucks it sounds like their trying to back up their product and to work with you. All my hunting bolt actions are Remington so I'm curious to see what happens, please keep us updated.

Good luck!!!


-------------
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 07:24
Yes Sir! I'd be very interested to know their position on those issues. But be prepared to have your G-Smith do a detailed diagram of the specs. In fact you might start there and explain that shipping it to them is not a good option. And then ask them to provide instructions to your G-Smith what details they want. Its a shame that its such a hassel getting your rifles in and out of country. If Rem determines that the chamber alignment is outside of their "quality tolerance" I'm sure they'd want to replace it. Ofcourse they may have some form of fast track in getting it to and from. Wink Might as well be optimistic! Please keep us informed.

-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 07:53
What would it take to get a name USA barrel into your hands?  If you got the barrel is there somebody there who could get it installed for you?

-------------
"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 08:40
Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

What would it take to get a name USA barrel into your hands?  If you got the barrel is there somebody there who could get it installed for you?
 
Replacing a barrel is not such a big issue any more. Most of the earlier problems (legal paperwork with the police) has been resolved since the change in our laws.
 
However I think the problem lies with the boltface and chamber cut rather then the barrel. So I will attend to this first. Being a 26 inch barrel I can cut a inch or so off the rear without a problem.


Posted By: head hunter
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 17:25
8shots I want to wish you good luck with this. I know it's a bad deal but hopefully remington will take care of you. Keep us update and good luck.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 17:44
Best wishes, 8. Keep us informed, Sir.  


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: October/14/2008 at 19:19
Bummer 8,
Do you remember me posting about messing up my stock and how I talked with Kaitie in CS?
She did me right, you may want to call her on their 800 number. PM inbound.


-------------
"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/15/2008 at 10:17
I doubt Remington will do anything.  You have got it shooting under 1 MOA haven't you?  That is all they are guaranteed for so I doubt they will do much.  

From a lot of the reading up I have done a .308 only needs 18" to 20" for a complete powder burn so you have quite a bit you could cut off.  Lots of shooters prefer 20-24" barrels over the 26" anyway. 

Good luck with what ever way you go.  I hope you get it working to your expectations.  Thunbs%20Up


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: October/15/2008 at 15:41
Man 8, I sure hope the best for you brother. I'm sure that all will be sorted out though.
We will keep the porch light on.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/15/2008 at 22:21
if you do cut it down make damn sure that the re crown the barrel otherwise your accuracy will go in the toiletDown%20the%20Toilet

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 02:35
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if you do cut it down make damn sure that the re crown the barrel otherwise your accuracy will go in the toiletDown%20the%20Toilet
 
If I cut the chamber end shorter, re-chamber and headspace, do I still have to re-crown?


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 02:36
On the update side I have given Remington the info requested, but have had no feedback yet, but it has only been two days, so no reason for me to be concerned.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 06:16
No 8 cutting from the chamber side will not require a re-crown. It may be noted though, that there have been cases where the factory crown was far less than optimal.
Has anyone checked the crown? Beyond just looking at it I mean.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 06:17
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if you do cut it down make damn sure that the re crown the barrel otherwise your accuracy will go in the toiletDown%20the%20Toilet
 
If I cut the chamber end shorter, re-chamber and headspace, do I still have to re-crown?
not if you cut that end no. why do you want to do that?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 06:23
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if you do cut it down make damn sure that the re crown the barrel otherwise your accuracy will go in the toiletDown%20the%20Toilet
 
If I cut the chamber end shorter, re-chamber and headspace, do I still have to re-crown?
not if you cut that end no. why do you want to do that?
 
I think we misunderstood one another. I have (or thought I did) state from the beginning that I wanted to re-cut the chamber if it is skew. That would mean cutting 1,5 inches or so of the chamber end and reaming a new chamber.
Then I recieved the advise to make sure I also re-crowned and did not understand how cutting off the opposite end would effect the crown.
Hope the mis-understanding cleared.
But thank you for your input and discussion. Much appreciated.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 06:40
unless you get somebody with a new sharp chamber reamer, you probably wont gain a whole lot.  i did forget that you mentioned cutting the chamber earlier, but i would have the crown inspected, i agree with cyborg on his point, some times that is all it takes to make a world of difference in a game of .0001's

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 09:12
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

unless you get somebody with a new sharp chamber reamer, you probably wont gain a whole lot.  i did forget that you mentioned cutting the chamber earlier, but i would have the crown inspected, i agree with cyborg on his point, some times that is all it takes to make a world of difference in a game of .0001's


If the chamber is not cut square like he is saying having it chopped off and re-cut could make a world of difference. 

This whole thing has just turned out to be a bummer deal, of all the people it could of happened to it had to be 8 shots in South Africa.  Whatever


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: October/16/2008 at 09:48
I think they mentioned some evidence of the chamber not being square - fouling building up on just one side or something like that.

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take em!


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/17/2008 at 02:44
The gunsmith is waiting for a new reamer to arrive. Will be a wait of approx 3 weeks. We will then take the barrel off and check the chamber alignment. The feeling is to rather wait for the reamer. If indeed it is out of alignment he can re-cut it immediately.
I will keep you informed.
Meanwhile no word yet from Remington technical.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/17/2008 at 06:11
since your going this far you may want to think about having the action trued up also.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: October/17/2008 at 08:19
what is the difference in getting the action trued and making the barrel and and chamber straight?

-------------
take em!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/17/2008 at 21:20

along with the chamber and barrel the bolt is worked on also, raceways get polished locking lugs get some tuning also i believe.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/22/2008 at 02:38
Dear Shirley,
Thank you for your reply. Whilst I accept your reply and understand that a production rifle has certain accuracy limitations, I remain disappointed that a rifle sold as a varmint rifle cannot achieve at least 1/2 inch at 100 meters level of accuracy.
I will indeed take the rifle to a custom gun maker to further accurize the rifle.
Regards,
Wouter Le Roux.
----- Original Message -----
From: mailto:Shirley.Conner@remington.com - Conner, Shirley
To: mailto:fafrica@telkomsa.net - Wouter Le Roux
Cc: mailto:Danny.Evans@remington.com - Evans, Danny ; mailto:Ken.Nickerson@remington.com - Nickerson, Ken E.
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: Remington VSF

Mr. Le Roux,

Per your most recent e-mail it would appear that you are taking all of the proper steps in defining the maximum accuracy potential of the rifle.  Quite frequently it is a process of trial and error in determining what particular load is going to provide the best accuracy with any given rifle.  It is also well known that two particular rifles of same make and model may each perform at their optimum with different ammunition types.

This is one of the challenges and mysteries which many bench rest shooters encounter everyday, finding the magic loading recipe for their particular rifle. 

Remington takes great pride in producing a quality and accurate production rifle building to the specifications outlined by (SAAMI) Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute.

Although many rifles we produce may achieve better accuracy results, the results which you reported ¾” – 1 ¼” @ 100 meters for a 308 caliber is well within our acceptable range for a production rifle.

It is possible that a custom gun maker may be able to offer some fine tuning to the rifle which may enhance the accuracy to some degree.  Unfortunately we do not have the “magic” recipe as each and every rifle has its own individual unique characteristics which may play a part determining that load which may perform best.  As noted we do not have the ability to examine the rifle first hand, so the recommendation of utilizing the services of a custom gun maker is the only suggestion I have to offer.

Shirley Conner


From: Wouter Le Roux [mailto:fafrica@telkomsa.net]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 5:17 AM
To: Conner, Shirley
Subject: Re: Remington VSF

 

Dear Shirley,

I have forwarded you the requested information on the 14/10 and have recieved no further communication from yourselves.

I do belong to the http://www.opticstalk.com/ - http://www.opticstalk.com/  and have discussed the problems I am experiencing with the rifle accuracy with other members. They have offered varies solutions but nothing has helped. I have now also informed them that I have contacted Remington for a possible solution.

They are keen to see how Remington would, if at all, deal with this matter.

 

Regards,

Wouter

 

From: mailto:Shirley.Conner@remington.com - Conner, Shirley

To: mailto:fafrica@telkomsa.net - Wouter Le Roux

Cc:



Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: October/22/2008 at 06:33
Damn Wouter, They threw back onto you. Man, I guess they are figuring "he's over seas, no harm no foul here." That sucks. there's no reason at all why handloaded ammo can't reach 1/4 moa from a varmint rifle. The best your getting is more than moa right?

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/22/2008 at 08:55
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Damn Wouter, They threw back onto you. Man, I guess they are figuring "he's over seas, no harm no foul here." That sucks. there's no reason at all why handloaded ammo can't reach 1/4 moa from a varmint rifle. The best your getting is more than moa right?
 
Yes, a bit disappointing. I can get around 1 moa. The odd grouping will be less, but it is very inconsistant.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 04:16
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I doubt Remington will do anything.  You have got it shooting under 1 MOA haven't you?  That is all they are guaranteed for so I doubt they will do much.  

From a lot of the reading up I have done a .308 only needs 18" to 20" for a complete powder burn so you have quite a bit you could cut off.  Lots of shooters prefer 20-24" barrels over the 26" anyway. 

Good luck with what ever way you go.  I hope you get it working to your expectations.  Thunbs%20Up
 
Ok Supertool, sorry to say you were right. I had an e-mail from Remington today saying that 1 MOA is all they gurantee. If the rifle is indeed faulty they would refund me and suggest I buy something different !!!!
With our licensing laws I am not prepared to get rid of the rifle and go through another nightmare. So I will either at my own cost re-cut the chamber or replace the barrel.
 
There you go !!! Heavy duty fluted barrel, aluminium pillar bedded, special stock and 1 MOA.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 06:42
Hind sight being 20/20 sometimes too much info closes a deal. When you stated your group varience to be 3/4 to 1 1/4 the game was over. I've learned the hard way not to give some of these places an out. If you had a do over and would have said the group was 1 1/4 they May have come across. Still a company with the resources of Rem shouldn't accept a varmint rifle with this problem. As you've stated it simply isn't reliable enough to bare the name.
 
What do you think guy's? If we all jump on board and e-mail Rem about Wouter's exceptional work in searching for the perfect round and their unprefessional treatment in this matter. Do you think they will turn around. We all know a squeaky wheel gets grease!
 
Sorry about the spelling, I'm off center this morn.


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 07:38
I'm in...... let me know who to email and when!

-------------
take em!


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 07:55

Me too. That isn't right. He should be able to get any factory ammo to shoot to 1-1/4" I would think tailor made handloads should be able to get better. I can get that good with any factory load, and it's not a varmint rifle. Give me an adress, and the go ahead.



-------------

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 08:05
I aint waiting for the go ahead...... This isn't right. When a customer spends the extra for something, and that extra doesn't meet expectations, which by the way aren't excessively demanding, then there is but one recourse. We bombard Remington with our concerns as to their treatment of one of our guys. I will also be sending them a link to this post.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 08:19

Thank you for your support. I have posted Remingtons full response in the P.F. I have forwarded Remington a copy of a reputable gunsmith report that the chamber is cut skew etc. They seem to accept that it is within their Q.C.

 However, if the forum thinks that I am unreasonable to expect more then the grouping that I have achieved, then that is so.
I can however achieve 1 MOA with just about any rifle and make. I did not need to buy a heavy fluted barrel, aluminium pillar bedded rifle for that.
 
The rest of the rifle is fine and once I have sorted the chamber I will post the results.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 08:29
Sorry to hear Wouter.  Hopefully with the new chamber it will shoot to your expectations.  

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 19:07
This is the last reply Wouter got from Rem,
 

Mr. Le Roux,

Per your most recent e-mail it would appear that you are taking all of the proper steps in defining the maximum accuracy potential of the rifle.  Quite frequently it is a process of trial and error in determining what particular load is going to provide the best accuracy with any given rifle.  It is also well known that two particular rifles of same make and model may each perform at their optimum with different ammunition types.

This is one of the challenges and mysteries which many bench rest shooters encounter everyday, finding the magic loading recipe for their particular rifle. 

Remington takes great pride in producing a quality and accurate production rifle building to the specifications outlined by (SAAMI) Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute.

Although many rifles we produce may achieve better accuracy results, the results which you reported ¾” – 1 ¼” @ 100 meters for a 308 caliber is well within our acceptable range for a production rifle.

It is possible that a custom gun maker may be able to offer some fine tuning to the rifle which may enhance the accuracy to some degree.  Unfortunately we do not have the “magic” recipe as each and every rifle has its own individual unique characteristics which may play a part determining that load which may perform best.  As noted we do not have the ability to examine the rifle first hand, so the recommendation of utilizing the services of a custom gun maker is the only suggestion I have to offer.

Shirley Conner

The portion I have underlined is probably what cost him the fix. BUT she didn't address the q/c issue that is causing the problem. If Wouter had offered only the info about the chamber alignment and that he had a documented diagnoses. Rem's q/c standards would require action.
 
I believe in contacting Rem we should stay away from the accuracy and question their willingness to sell substandard barrels and components. If Wouter will scan a copy of the actual Gunsmith diagnostic and post it here for us to copy then we all can pressure Rem into making this right. And try to stay together on this. We need to act as a team and no one take off on their own adventure. The reason I say that is if we all stay together we will appear organized and committed. Then if we don't get satisfaction at first, when we inform Rem of our next move they will likely take us serious. Most companies like free publicity good or bad as long as it doesn't concern a detailed component quality. Thats where we have the upper hand. If atleast 25 of us send Rem a "Letter of concern" and they all address this quality problem that will be a good start.
I don't think they will change at that, but then is when we pull together in some form of petition type proposal. Stating " Either you offer Mr.LeRoux a reasonable solution or this issue will be made VERY public". And perhaps also threaten to boycot Rem merchendise. These are just suggestions but I believe it will cause Rem to adjust their treatment of our Friend!
 
We will need consent from Chris if any of this action might involve the OT so I will wait to hear from Chris and the majority before I act.
 
The e-mail address Wouter used is; mailto:Shirley.Conner@remington.com - Shirley.Conner@remington.com


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 19:13
Thinking
We might suggest that Rem contract with Wouters gunsmith to make the appropiate repair and avoid any need for out of country shipping. I'm sure there are several options if we can get Rem to stand up!


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 19:58
Rule one: Complain to people who have the power to do something.  Start with the Vice president of Sales or the CFO.  I called the CFO's office about Zumbo. I was nice and they were nice.  Always good to let the bean counters catch the heck over quality Wink

-------------
"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/29/2008 at 21:40
the problem i have with this is that if you wanted a very accurate rifle out of the box maybe you should have spent more money and bought something with a real guarantee on it, like kimber has and weatherby has, i dont know of any factory remington rifle with an accuracy guarantee on it varmint or sporter,  im not defending remington, but at the same time im not defending wouter either, i have had great luck with all the remington rifles i own, which is 5 right now, three of them are older than me. im thinking that they are playing a foreigner without a prayer game which does bug me.
 
i will however wish you the best of luck with the rifle, and hope whatever you do to make it better pays off i dont like to see people unhappy


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 08:37
With hindsight, which is allways 20/20 vision, I should have thrown the extra bucks at it and bought a Sako Target. Let me also say that this Remington rifle did not come cheaply to me in South Africa. If price alone was the factor then I have put my money where my mouth was.
I did however do my homework beforehand and everything pointed to Remington being able to deliver the goods. Everybody I spoke to spoke in glowing terms about the Remington and the 700 action. I also specifically went for the 308Win caliber, because it seems to be consistently the most accurate caliber. (this is according to our monthly grouping competitions, which is allways won by a 308 Win with groups of 1/4 inch or less. With my 1 inch rifle I do not even bother to participate.)
In South Africa everybody also talks about clover leaf groups at 100 yds with their Remington.
What gets to me is that a well known registered gunsmith has put his name to paper and states that the CHAMBER IS CUT OUT OF ALIGNMENT. That tells me the factory tooling is wrong or I got a dud.  Remington has just glossed over this.
 
The e-mail above is in fact not the last correspondence from Remington. The last, after recieving a copy of the gunsmith report, states in less words that skew chamber or not, the rifle performs to their minimum standard.
They have offered to refund me if their own smith endorses the problem. This is however not an option for me due to our licensing laws.
 
I hear what everyone says about 1MOA being good enough etc. I disagree. A rifle sold with a heavy barrel, aluminium pillar bedded etc should surely do better???  My friend has a 308 Musgrave that shoots cloverleaf. He paid one third of the price I paid. This is an old rifle built in South Africa that he had re-stocked etc. This company has closed down years ago and only made right hand actions so I cannot buy one!


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 09:03
 
 
 Remington is the oldest rifle maker in America. The Model 700 rifle is simpler, more reliable and more accurate than any other factory rifle ever made. The Model 700 actions are machined from a solid block of steel, and the cylindrical design is far more rigid than other, flat-bottomed types. It also beds more easily and consistently, to provide the accuracy that is the envy of every other rifle maker. The "three-rings-of-steel" that surrounds and fully supports the cartridge head adds strength and accuracy to the rifle. Barrels are hammer forged, precision made, and provided with a target crown for superior accuracy performance. Combine this with the shortest lock-time available, (3 milliseconds), together with the finest, fully adjustable trigger mechanism, and you have the legendary accuracy that Remington is renowned for.
 


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 09:10
A reasonable solution would be for them to send me (via their agents) a new, proper spec barrel, or to refund me to the cost equivalent of a South African barrel or refund the equivalent of re-cutting the chamber.
 
Irrespective of their assistance or not I will have the chamber re-cut.
 
I appreciate the forums assistance, but maybe this is the wrong vehicle to use. I also do not want to involve my friends in what is essentially my problem.


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 11:26
Embarrased I used to be in a gun club with a custom rifle smith for match guns, a barrel maker and his son, and several of the guys who make sniper rifles and other small arms projects for two branches of the military.  NONE of 8's problems suprise me.  Even as screwed up as his rifle is, it still shoots under 1"  These guys were always swaping stories about the odd ball problems the new guns they got in had.

-------------
"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 11:40
I do have a problem with Rem selling this type of rifle - NOT their plain off the shelf 700 - without it doing better than it is!  If you can only expect to get the same performance from this "special" rifle as the plain 700, why the hell are they charging more!!!!!!!!!!!!  That is B.S. and to me nothing more than taking advantage of folks!  Their marketing of this "Varmint" model surely indicates to me that it will be of higher quality and therefore worth the extra $$ they charge for it!

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take em!


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 11:54
They charge more mostly because of the stock.  The HS precision stocks go for about $300 plus and are a pretty decent stock.  Other than that I am sure the barrel is chambered and the riflings are cut the exact same way.  It is just a little heavier.  Remington guns certainly are not match guns unless you get one of the 5R barreled guns (which are thought much more highly of) I think you always run this risk.

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 12:58
NO STINKIN WAY!!!
 
 
This can not be tolorated!! All the major manufactors are boasting in their ads of how accurate todays rifles are and Rem is the loudest. Plus the rifles I've seen lately out of the box are sub-moa. It has been making me wonder if I screwed up having one built. If my custom rifle doesn't shoot as good as that Alaskan I told you about I gonna feel mighty stupid. I don't care where you live, if Rem is going to market to the world then they will be held accountable. His money is no less valuable than ours and probably no easier to come by! Somebody give me a contact name and address for one of the Rem Ceo's and I'll jump on this with both feet. I'm not the most qualified here but if Wouter will hold on and give me a chance I'll get results. He shouldn't spend another dime on this and that includes shipping if needed. I agree that the lady he has been dealin with is a dead end and this has to be handled by a big dawg! I would still like several of you to be involved in this if necessary.
 
Now who can give me a contact?? Baseball%20Bat


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 16:12
I don't know guys.  Even Surgeon Rifles only guarantee their guns to shoot .5 MOA.  It costs over $4400.  I think some people get lucky and get a production rifle that will shoot .5 MOA sometimes, but realistically I don't think that is to common.  

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/30/2008 at 21:27
The accuracy isn't the major issue. If the gunsmith report had shown that the chamber and bore was aligned then there would be no case to be made. BUT it is documented that the tooling and chamber alignment is sub-standard and cannot be corrected other than barrel replacment. As long as accuracy is held  up as the problem Rem will opt out. If the chamber could be magically realigned the accuracy would improve.
 
Wouter, If you will make a epoxy casting of the chamber and atleast an inch (2 1/2CM) of the bore and send it to the Rem service dept. or better yet a Rem Ceo I believe it will get results. Be sure and include a copy of the gunsmith report and an itemized cost sheet of what you have spent just to achieve unacceptable preformance for a VARMINT RIFLE. You have stated that you have other rifles on hand so PLEASE set this one aside and hound Rem until they take care of this. I'll fight with you as long as you want to fight so don't let it go so easy. I have a pretty good feel for battles that can be won and this is one of em.
We all know they could aford to replace this with a top line rifle and not even look back so why let them off the hook. I don't hate Rem but I don't want to let them crap on people either.


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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: October/31/2008 at 03:57
[QUOTE=Sgt. D]The accuracy isn't the major issue. If the gunsmith report had shown that the chamber and bore was aligned then there would be no case to be made. BUT it is documented that the tooling and chamber alignment is sub-standard and cannot be corrected other than barrel replacment. As long as accuracy is held  up as the problem Rem will opt out. If the chamber could be magically realigned the accuracy would improve.
 
 
The sentence in red as expressed by Sgt D is exactly my concern.
 
I took the rifle, as suggested by Remington, to one of our top gunsmiths for further accurizing work. After looking at the rifle the smith stated that I would be wasting my money and should first have the barrel replaced before doing anything else.
I reported this to Remington who stated that they would refund me and they also suggested I buy something else other then Remington, as it does not get any better then what I have got!
This is unfortunately not an option for me, as I would have difficulties motivating a new license for the same caliber. Plus it would take another year. I would far rather take Remingtons legendary 700 action and rebarrel it at my own expense and have piece of mind and enjoy the rifle.
Quote from them " would not suggest replacing the rifle with one of the same as the next rifle may/may not perform at the same level as this particular one"
SgtD, thank you for your support, but as stated I will rather just take the less stressfull route. getting the rifle and the lic was enough for one year!
 


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: October/31/2008 at 07:07
 [/QUOTE] After looking at the rifle the smith stated that I would be wasting my money and should first have the barrel replaced before doing anything else.
I reported this to Remington who stated that they would refund me and they also suggested I buy something else other then Remington, as it does not get any better then what I have got!
This is unfortunately not an option for me,
 
[/QUOTE]
 
 
This is the solution I would hope for. BUT have Rem cover the cost. That is what I want to present to Rem in addition to recouping some of the money wasted trying to correct and finally identify the problem. Lets atleast persue that before you spend more of your money.
Wouter will you consider taking this to Rem or let me do it from this side of the pond? They do absouletly owe you this!!


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: October/31/2008 at 17:54
This is what can be expected when a reputiable maker is bought by an investment group Cerberus Capital Management LP . What is needed is a complete list of their companies so we will know all the brand names that need to be avoided. Oh yea this will be most all of them. Remington, Bushmaster, Marlin, Smith & Wesson, and Thompson center for a start.

-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 01:31
Sgt D and 3_tens, thank you for your support on this one.
 
I have booked the rifle in with Harrison Bros. They will recut the chamber to proper specs. This means cutting a short piece of the rear end, cutting a new chamber and re-threading the barrel. Total cost will be $175.
 
I have approached Remington and followed the correct channels and procedures. I have given them an opportunity to make good, but they have failed to enter into a meaningfull dialogue.
 
The $175 will not bankrupt me, so I say " Oops, sorry this is the open forum, I cannot say what I want to say"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 06:27
You know, I could understand Remingtons position if everything was cut properly. The fact that you pay more for a given rifle, due to factory accurizing, you'd expect to get a rifle that the chamber was cut in the proper alignment with the bore. Any manufacturer would take the time to make it right when there is a written explanation from a gunsmith of the problem being the way it was manufactured. Rest assured this is an issue with respect to the fact that Wouter isn't living here in the U.S. If he was they'd take care of it right fast.
I say we bombard Remington and demand that they do our friend right.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 06:39
Cyborg, thank you also for your, and all the other members support on this one.
I have no doubt that had I lived in the USA and I were in a position to get the rifle to Remington, and they agreed that the chamber was cut skew, they would replace it.
 
However, these options are not available to me. I have also worked through their local agent, who has a copy of the gunsmith report. They also wanted the rifle so that their own smith can look at it.
 
Now here is the rub: I informed them that I would send only the barrel and action, so as to save shipping cost. He stated that they wanted the complete rifle, as they have found that there is often a pressure point between stock and barrel. Now I would like to know how a stock pressure point leads to a skew chamber??? It was at this point that I lost interest in their real understanding of the problem and their desire to fix the problem.
 
By offering to accept the gunsmith report and permitting him to fix it would be tantamount to admitting to a problem. What they want is to get the gun back, then they will say there is nothing wrong with it, but here is a new one anyway.
 
Guys, thanks for all your help and advice, but I say "%^&$ them". I will paddle my own canoe.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 07:21
This is what I sent to Shirley just now.
 
 
Dear Shirley,
 
I am truly concerned that Remington is treating a friend of mine with little regard due to his being across ocean. I seriously doubt that this would be a concern, if it were someone like myself, and here in the Continental U.S.
 
Now let's look at facts. Wouter LeRoux has taken the rifle to a gunsmith, and has it verified that the chamber is cut askew. If this had been Savage, Browning, Weatherby, etc and they had sold a rifle, (tactical, target/Varmint) which are supposed to be more accurate, and as such they cost more. Then a gunsmith verify that the rifle isn't up to snuff, at bare minimum, I can assure you they'd make it right. The fact that so many of us use Remingtons and have been loyal to that brand, to us this is a HUGE concern.
 
There is absolutely no reason why, an experienced reloader, can't get a varminter to shoot clover leafs. It should be that factory ammo would shoot moa or better in any higher dollar rifle. It should be considered lucky on your part, that he is a fine gentleman, and is giving Remington the opportunity to make it right.
If it had been me, I would be more harsh, and this would be a black eye for Remington. It's going to cost my friend  $175.00 to have the chamber cut off, and rechambered properly in order to get the accuracy that this rifle should have been capable of to begin with. Great job there. It's really nice to know that what was a fine company in the eyes of so many is going to the pigs. Given this situation and the way it is being handled by this company, I'll not be buying anything Remington ever again. You have shown me what your comapany is really all about these days. It's a real shame too. I assume that this is so Remington can cut costs and save money in order to acquire more companies and there by begin to cancel out competition.
 
This is a serious concern, due to the fact that Remington now owns DPMS, Bushmaster, and sorted other manufacturers. I hope that this behavior doesn't start to affect them as well.
 
Just so you know I have seen the gunsmiths report, and I am still in absolute shock that regardless of his hard fought achieved accuracy, you aren't doing everything to correct this problem. Remington will only live on their name as long as they maintain their reputation, and this certainly is not the way to do that.
I am hopeful that Remington will make this right, I doubt they will however given your correspondence.
 
Sincerely,
William T. Miller III



-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 09:20
Well, I'll say this. They reply promptly. here is the latest from them.
 
I appreciate the prompt reply sir. The problem is that Wouter is across the ocean, and the paper work nightmare that he has to go through even with getting a replacement from your factory. Now as to the accuracy issue I have both a 308, and a 30-06 caliber 7400 that do that well shooting Winchester factory rounds. Please don't tell me that when he spent the additional money, and went through all the hassle that he has, that you are willing to just let this go unattended. At the very least, you could ask him to send the barrel back to you, and then send him a new and properly checked barrel. I'm quite certain that if you are truly concerned about this issue, and consider his particular situation that something could be done on your part. Again thanks for the prompt reply.
 
Sincerely,
W.T. Miller III
 
In a message dated 11/3/2008 10:03:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Danny.Evans@remington.com writes:

 

 

Mr. Miller,

I have been working closely with Shirley regarding this particular rifle  I find it difficult to understand how Remington can be identified as not taking this issue seriously??  We have offered to refund the customer his money for the rifle,  we have offered to replace the rifle (stating that the replacement may//may not perform as accurately as this particular gun,,,(1” five shot group at 100 meters with a 308 caliber would be labeled as a passed accuracy specifications for a production rifle). 

What else would you like for us to do???

We are more than willing to do what is right for customers, and I am uncertain what else I could offer at this point?

 

Regards,

Danny Evans

Director, Operations



-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 09:41
Here is another reply.
 
Thank you sir,
I sincerely hope that this can be resolved to a satisfactory level for all concerned parties. I and several other Remington customers are hoping to see Remington do what we believe to be the right thing for one of our own.
 
Sincerely,
William T. Miller III
 
In a message dated 11/3/2008 10:34:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Danny.Evans@remington.com writes:

Mr. Miller,

I agree with your comments regarding the difficulties that are added as a result of an ocean between us…that is why we suggested the possibility of use of Custom Gunsmith at assisting…

I will follow up on the suggestion of replacement barrel to see what options we may have.



-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: GLZ
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:08

They have offered to replace the gun or refund the money!! What else do you want Remington to do?

 This is not a match grade rifle. Factory production tolerances are just that, tolerance. I believe the gun
 
smith that checked the chamber was expecting a match grade chamber and found a production
 
chamber. If the reamer pilot is at minimum specification and the barrel is at maximum, the chamber
 
will have run out.
 

Even if Remington sent a new barrel it would still have to be fit to his receiver by a third party. At this

point Remington would basically be stuck with a liability problem caused by a third party. I’m sure that
 
his gun smith can do a fine job but $h1t happens.
 
 
 

He really needs to order a match grade barrel and have it installed. Ever took a peek in a production

barrel? Go to Lilja’s web site and look at the video. http://www.riflebarrels.com/ - http://www.riflebarrels.com/ This is pretty typical.

 



Posted By: silver
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:22
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Cyborg, thank you also for your, and all the other members support on this one.
I have no doubt that had I lived in the USA and I were in a position to get the rifle to Remington, and they agreed that the chamber was cut skew, they would replace it.
 
However, these options are not available to me. I have also worked through their local agent, who has a copy of the gunsmith report. They also wanted the rifle so that their own smith can look at it.
 
Now here is the rub: I informed them that I would send only the barrel and action, so as to save shipping cost. He stated that they wanted the complete rifle, as they have found that there is often a pressure point between stock and barrel. Now I would like to know how a stock pressure point leads to a skew chamber??? It was at this point that I lost interest in their real understanding of the problem and their desire to fix the problem.
 
By offering to accept the gunsmith report and permitting him to fix it would be tantamount to admitting to a problem. What they want is to get the gun back, then they will say there is nothing wrong with it, but here is a new one anyway.
 
Guys, thanks for all your help and advice, but I say "%^&$ them". I will paddle my own canoe.
 
Wouter,
 
It is my best guest that they want make sure that there are no other "bugs" in the gun while they have it. 


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"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:22
Bill that's cool that you've stepped in to assist.

Maybe I'm missing something but it sounds like Remington is still working on making this right???


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:23
GLZ, Read what I sent to Remington closely. When I have two 7400's that are notoriously not that accurate and they both are shooting factory loaded ammo, as well as this VARMINTER shoots hand loads, and the fact that was this rifle sold at a higher price for accuracy upgrades. This is totally un-acceptable. Who's to say for sure that the chamber was definitely cut according to minimum/maximum tooling standards? Any rifle sold as Tactical, Target/Varmint should be made at better standards as they are going to expected to perform at a standard level. This rifle obviously does not.
Remington has the where withall to make this right, and if they do indeed value their reputation for accuracy, and are truly concerned about having happy customers, then they will make it right.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:27
Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

Wouter,
 
It is my best guest that they want make sure that there are no other "bugs" in the gun while they have it. 


That's kinda what it sounds like to me. Check everything, repair or replace what's needed, so the final result is a rifle with a clean "bill of health".


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:29
Mike, I'm unsure about the stance tjat Remington will take. Whether or not they do will likely be known to Wouter in a short period of time. I do hope that they look at this and make some adjustments in what they consider to be acceptable minimum standards for their higher end rifles.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:37
Since they are offering to do what they can and even considering replacing the barrel, maybe talk to them and see if they would just give you the money for the replacement barrel and put that towards a true match grade barrel.  See if you can get one that has been hand lapped.  As they stated you may or may not get one that is better than the first one if you get another from them.  Or at least see if they will pay to have the chamber recut.  But that is not going to happen if you are not willing to send the rifle to their service center. 

I gotta agree here, it sounds to me like they are trying to make this right.  They just have procedures and polices in place to protect them, which is completely understandable.  I really don't think we ought to be trying to give Remington a bad rap over this.  There are several other examples on this very site where people have had excellent experiences with Remington.  As they said they have offered to replace or refund and what else can they do better than that.  I realize that is not feesable for you 8shots, but being the circumstances they are I don't think they can really offer anything else.  It is not Remington's fault for the hoops that have to be jumped through to get a rifle in Africa.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: silver
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:37
Originally posted by GLZ GLZ wrote:

They have offered to replace the gun or refund the money!! What else do you want Remington to do?

 This is not a match grade rifle. Factory production tolerances are just that, tolerance. I believe the gun
 
smith that checked the chamber was expecting a match grade chamber and found a production
 
chamber. If the reamer pilot is at minimum specification and the barrel is at maximum, the chamber
 
will have run out.
 

Even if Remington sent a new barrel it would still have to be fit to his receiver by a third party. At this

point Remington would basically be stuck with a liability problem caused by a third party. I’m sure that
 
his gun smith can do a fine job but $h1t happens.
 
 
 

He really needs to order a match grade barrel and have it installed. Ever took a peek in a production

barrel? Go to Lilja’s web site and look at the video. http://www.riflebarrels.com/ - http://www.riflebarrels.com/ This is pretty typical.

 

 
GLZ,
 
Yes it is typical. THATS THE PROBLEM!!!  The chamber was not cut correctly. The match spec has nothing to do with it. 
 
 They offered to replace the gun?  Did they also offer to compensate for a 1 year waiting period?  Did they offer to compensate for the fact that since he already has a gun of this caliber, even one that does not work, his government will not allow him to replace it? IF, I offer you a gun that I know you can not have, is that a ligtiment offer? NO!!!  It sounds good on paper, but they did not really offer to replace his gun, because it is not an offer that he has legal power to aprove.  HE must have government approval before he can get another gun. Since he has a gun just like the one he wants, The government will not aproave it. "Catch-22" Thus knowing that, they have an agent in SA, They did not make an offer in good faith.


-------------
"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com



Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 10:38
Also, this has been going on for some time. here is a thread about the handloads trying to achieve the accuracy that Remington is using as their basis for accuracy claims.
http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12528 - http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12528
 
I have no doubt that any other customer here in the U.S. would get a new rifle for this. That isn't doable for 8shots because of his country of origin.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 11:07
Well, I'm really bummed out about this.  Remington CS treated me right, no questions asked and I told them I screwed it up.  I'm with Bill on this one, Remington needs to send him a check for the new barrel and make A LOT of Remington Customers happy!!!
8 shouldn't be penalized because his government are boneheads.
 
My .02.


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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 11:31
Well Cy, this morning I searched for over an hour for an e-mail address for Tommy Millner with no success so I determined to send him a letter. But you appear to have a connection that may produce. Wouter has stated that he wants to have it rechambered as suggested by his gunsmith. In the letter that is what I asked Mr. Millner to cover in addition to some compensation for 8's trouble. I will wait before sending it now to see if your contact comes across. Since they have stated that they will refund then they should be glad to get out for the rechamber cost. If you haven't made that suggestion to them then perhaps you should and include a copy of wouter's last post stating that's what he wants and what he said it would cost. I think you are on track to getting this done. Keep us up on the results.

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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/03/2008 at 11:39
I assume they will contact Wouter, or atleast his smith. I am hopeful that there will be an acceptable resolution to this soon.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/05/2008 at 01:22
I have been out of office for a day, and WOW, have you all been doing a stirling job on my behalf!!
Firstly, I would like to re-itterate, I am totally bummed off with the level of accuracy I can achieve with this rifle. If our local gunsmith gave the rifle a clean bill of health  then I would have no beef with Remington. This is however not the case. The smith also did not want to do further accurizing work untill the chamber has been cut straight. I also know I did not buy a MEGA$$$$$ sniper handcrafted rifle, but I did believe their marketing hype of the most accurate production rifle. I did expect at least 1/2 or better, which I could tighten up with further accurizing such as blueprinting the action.
As far as my dealings with Remington are concerned, and I have stated this all along, is that they have offered to take the rifle back and refund me the money. I have informed Remington that this is not an option for me due tou our stringent gun-laws. That was the end of any further correspondence from them. They have not written me a further word to ask if there are any further options or solutions to this problem. The obvious solution is to send me a new barrel that has been cut correctly, without machine marks in the length of the barrel, or to pay for the re-cutting of the chamber etc.
 
Here is my last correspondence to them. I clearly state my dissapointment. I have had no further replies.
 

Dear Shirley,

I am rather disappointed with your response. Firstly this is not just a production rifle, but a Varminter equipped with a heavy fluted barrel, aluminium pillar bedded and synthetic stock. I can accept that a standard production hunting rifle without these modifications should shoot at approx 1 MOA.

Certain observations such as a skew chamber has been made. This flaw makes other accurizing work pointless.

The South African gunlaws are very restrictive and I am not prepared to undergo another licensing drama. In view of this, and your response, it leaves me no option but to resolve the problem myself by either recutting the chamber or replacing the barrel with a decently manufactured one.

 

Regards,

Wouter

----- Original Message -----

From: mailto:Shirley.Conner@remington.com - To: mailto:fafrica@telkomsa.net - Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:37 PM

Subject: RE: Remington VSF G6689559

 

Mr. Le Roux,

 

We strongly disagree with the statement “this rifle barrel is not capable of accuracy.”  As previously noted, a 30 caliber rifle that will shoot sub 1”, five shot groups at 100 meters is a accurate rifle.

We do apologize if you find these results unsatisfactory for a production firearm, but again, this is well within an acceptable standard. 

Unfortunately, we have no other recommendations for improving the accuracy of this rifle if your custom gun maker cannot provide improvements.

I would not suggest replacing the rifle with one of the same as th



Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: November/05/2008 at 21:51
That is really disappointing that they would take that stance. Thumbs%20Down  Sorry to hear about your dilemma.  I would think that they could at least send you a new barrel seeing there are machine marks in it.  I guess I would have expected better of Remington.

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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/06/2008 at 00:47
I have been thinking about the generalized statement that a 30 cal rifle that shoots 1 MOA is an accurate rifle.
This is like taking a working horse (standard reamed and hammer forged barrel) and dressing it up in the finest racing saddlery ( HS Stock, Fluted barrel, aluminium pillar bedding) and then saying you are fit to enter the horse racing circuit.
Ah well, at least I look good.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: November/06/2008 at 21:53
Based on the gunsmith report I wouldn't want this barrel even if the chamber could be corrected. He stated that there was damage to the rifling through out the barrel. It would be a shame to spend more money on a barrel that will still have issues. Everyone needs to keep the focus on the chamber misalignment and pilot damage to the rifling. As long as accuracy is mentioned Rem is not going to do anything. The barrel is a factory defect and until that is made to be the major complaint this isn't going anywhere. Wouter if you are willing to accept a replacment barrel from Rem then that is what I think you should tell them you want. But I don't know if recieving a barrel is a problem with customs for you. If it is then I guess you could ask them to cover the repair cost and apply that money to having a barrel build in country. But please stop giving Rem an out by even mentioning "accuracy". Good luck!

-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/07/2008 at 04:03
Thank you all for your stirling efforts.
Today the South African Remington agent phoned me to say that they have been contacted by Remington America, and have been instructed to call my rifle in for their inspection. They will pay for the freight cost.
Once it has indeed been established that the barrel and chamber is out of spec or not, further action will be decided upon between us.
So come Monday I will ship the rifle to Pretoria and then wait to hear from them.
 
 


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: November/07/2008 at 08:32
ExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellent
 
 
The battle isn't won, BUT You've taken the Hill!!. Now just send the gunsmith report with it and a letter stating your rejection of the defective barrel and your frustration with being mistreated initially. I wouldn't show gratitude too soon as they have not made any correction yet. Fortunetly this will be handled by someone other than who you have been dealing with. So please refrain from mentioning accuracy being your concern as with the defects in the barrel they will know that accuracy was seriously effected. I know I'm coming off as a know it all, but I am convenced that if they are offered an out you will suffer further disappointment. And remember you have spent a great deal of time and money that they probably won't let you recover. So please hold a courtious but hard line on your expections.
 
What do expect the proceedure to be concerning getting what ever they do back in your hands? Evidently another Gov approval may not be necessary.
 
I am very glad for you finally getting some help with this. I hope you get a new rifle and one that has been carefully inspected for excella

-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: November/08/2008 at 22:22
8shots.  I applaud you for your persistence. 

I was very pleased with the technical help I received from Remington with my recent purchase.  The guy I talked to was frank and knowledgeable and based on his advice I returned the rifle for a refund.  He did say if I kept the rifle they would do whatever it takes to correct the problem.  I will buy Remington again. 

But you have a complicating factor of living in Africa and buying a rifle made in the United States.  Even given that it shouldn't take long to have your rifle shipped to Remington and inspected.  I'd give them a couple of weeks and then start calling your agent.  He can find out with a phone call the status of your service request. 

Best of luck.  Timber


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: November/09/2008 at 01:46
Thunbs%20Up


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/10/2008 at 04:42
I have shipped the rifle to Pretoria this morning. It should arrive around Wed or Thursday, then we will see what their own gunsmith reports on the workmanship. If they agree then I am a bit closer to a solution. If they disagree the rifle will be sent to another independant smith.
How best to resolve this remains a problem. A new barrel would be the easiest for me, but may prove a problem for Remington. Remington apparently sells/dispatches only action and barrel as a unit due to aligning the inscriptions to top dead center or something. This will be a problem for me as the action carries the serial number. The easiest option would be for them to pay for the re-cutting of the chamber and I live with the barrel machine marks. But let me first hear whether they agree or not.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: November/11/2008 at 08:40
Man 8,
I'm glad they are doing this!! I really push Remington firearms to family and friends.  I think given the situation their doing their best to make it right for both parties.

 Mike 


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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: November/11/2008 at 08:53
There is strength in numbers, all it takes is that enough people band together with a common goal, and folks then take notice. While I am still perplexed that it took this approach to warrant an action by Remington, I am very hopeful that some resolution is at hand. I hope that the Remington rep in Pretoria finds that there is a reason for action on their behalf. I am doubtful however.
I will state that, we will cross that bridge if and when we get there. Wouter, I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to lend a hand. I hope for the very best outcome.


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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: November/11/2008 at 14:25

While visiting my in laws in Ilion, NY the other day I drove past the Remington factory and yelled out the car window as we drove by "Take care of 8shots problem"!



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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: November/11/2008 at 17:38
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

A new barrel would be the easiest for me, but may prove a problem for Remington. Remington apparently sells/dispatches only action and barrel as a unit due to aligning the inscriptions to top dead center or something.
 
It's a legal liability issue.  They have no control over use of a barrel not manufactured by them, and likewise have no control over whether or not the barrel was installed by a competent person.  They have no way to pressure proof test the aftermarket barrel for safety like they do with a barrel leaving their factory.  In the event they recommended someone install an aftermarket barrel, and somehow due to a problem with the metallurgy, headspace, chamber dimensions, etc, of said barrel, some kind of catastrophic failure occurred during use, seriously injuring or killing you or someone else, they could be sued for untold amounts of money.
 
I agree with Sgt. D.  I would confine my complaints to Remington solely on workmanship based on the gunsmith report of non-concentric chamber alignment and tool marks in the bore, and I would keep specific levels of achieved accuracy out of the discussion.  If indeed the chamber alignment is out of specification (keep in mind that even if it is technically misaligned with the bore centerline, it may still be within their manufacturing specs), it would seem they have a responsibility to fix the problem, regardless of the accuracy level the rifle is capable of.  I do sincerely hope this all works out in your favor, Wouter!  You don't deserve any more hassle with this rifle after all the frustration and hoops you've had to jump through to get it.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/12/2008 at 06:20
Originally posted by SamC SamC wrote:

While visiting my in laws in Ilion, NY the other day I drove past the Remington factory and yelled out the car window as we drove by "Take care of 8shots problem"!

 
Excellent
 
Thanks to all off you.
All the pressure is paying off.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/12/2008 at 06:24
The current situation is that the South African rep has recieved the rifle. He phoned me a short while ago to say that they have looked at the problem and agree that the barrel and chamber is faulty. They are now sending the rifle to a company called Truvelo who manufactures and installs barrels. This company has the equipment to take internal barrel and chamber photographs, which will be sent to Remington USA.
So we are making good progress on having this problem resolved.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: November/12/2008 at 12:20
Great news, Wouter!  Sounds like the wheels are turning!  I hope this is resolved quickly and to your complete satisfaction.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: November/12/2008 at 14:44
starting to sound a little better!

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take em!


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: November/13/2008 at 14:14
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

The current situation is that the South African rep has recieved the rifle. He phoned me a short while ago to say that they have looked at the problem and agree that the barrel and chamber is faulty. They are now sending the rifle to a company called Truvelo who manufactures and installs barrels. This company has the equipment to take internal barrel and chamber photographs, which will be sent to Remington USA.
So we are making good progress on having this problem resolved.





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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/21/2008 at 04:35
Ok, I feel vindicated. The remington rep in South Africa has sent the firearm to Truvelo, a premier maker of barrels and firearms.
They have also concluded that the rifle barrel is out of specification. The full report has now been sent to Remington, which includes the actual measurements taken by Truvelo.
So I feel that I have not acted unreasonably or blamed my own poor shooting abilities on the rifle.
It now remains to be seen how Remington intends to correct the problem.
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/21/2008 at 06:11
I have also discussed the results of the measurements with Truvelo.
The barrel has waves down the inside, in other words it is more oversize in certain areas then in others.
It therefore cannot be lapped as a fix.
A barrel is also considered shot out if it measures more the .02 of an inch over bore size. In places this barrel is measuring .041 of an inch over bore size. So this barrel is considered "shot out".


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: November/21/2008 at 09:03
Amazing this past quality control at Remington. I guess they don't do any kind of ISO participation.

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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: SamC
Date Posted: November/21/2008 at 09:20
That is absolutely shocking!

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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: November/21/2008 at 14:51
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

I have also discussed the results of the measurements with Truvelo.
The barrel has waves down the inside, in other words it is more oversize in certain areas then in others.
It therefore cannot be lapped as a fix.
A barrel is also considered shot out if it measures more the .02 of an inch over bore size. In places this barrel is measuring .041 of an inch over bore size. So this barrel is considered "shot out".
cut it out to 8mm or .338 or something in that neighborhood then

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/27/2008 at 01:39
I think Remington is knocked speechless for being found out. Not a word from them to date!


Posted By: martin3175
Date Posted: November/27/2008 at 07:18

This week is a big holiday with  Thanksgiving and allot of folks are on vacation..I would trust that someone would contact you next week..If not- then I would be really concerned.



Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/27/2008 at 07:36
OK, thanks for that info. I will pass it on to my local rep.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: November/27/2008 at 08:12
[/QUOTE] cut it out to 8mm or .338 or something in that neighborhood then[/QUOTE]

That I think would be a great option here is the States, But I'll bet it would be a nightmare for Wouter!!!



It would be cool though!!!



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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: November/28/2008 at 02:35
Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

cut it out to 8mm or .338 or something in that neighborhood then[/QUOTE]

That I think would be a great option here is the States, But I'll bet it would be a nightmare for Wouter!!!



It would be cool though!!!

[/QUOTE]
 
I bought the rifle for a specific purpose. The 8mm or .338 would not work for that purpose.
To re-caliber the rifle would require a new license.
Maybe Remington should offer a blank barrel on all their rifles, then the purchaser can just drill and ream his own choice of caliber and get it right the first time. 


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: November/29/2008 at 13:34
THEY DO!!!   It's called " Buy a SAKO!! "      Laugh


Posted By: GLZ
Date Posted: November/29/2008 at 20:46
A barrel is also considered shot out if it measures more the .02 of an inch over bore size. In places this barrel is measuring .041 of an inch over bore size. So this barrel is considered "shot out".
[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about these dimensions? Might you mean .02 mm and .041 mm? Hard to believe the barrel measures .328 to .349



Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: December/01/2008 at 00:56
Originally posted by GLZ GLZ wrote:

A barrel is also considered shot out if it measures more the .02 of an inch over bore size. In places this barrel is measuring .041 of an inch over bore size. So this barrel is considered "shot out".

Are you sure about these dimensions? Might you mean .02 mm and .041 mm? Hard to believe the barrel measures .328 to .349

[/QUOTE]
 
Thanks for picking that up GLZ. We work and think in mm in South Africa and I got that mixed up once again.
It is in fact .02mm and .041mm. So the bore is measuring .309inches , in stead of max permissible of .3078 inside the rifling and .301 on the rifling instead of .2995 inches.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: December/02/2008 at 01:06
All is well that ends well!
 
Remington called yesterday and has agreed to do a partial refund. The exact amount is being negotiated but I am satisfied that Remington has come through.
I will now fit my own replacement barrel.
 
Once again my thanks to all of you for helping and support.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: December/02/2008 at 05:03
+1 Thunbs Up

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"



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