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Sighting in question

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12767
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Topic: Sighting in question
Posted By: AimingHigh
Subject: Sighting in question
Date Posted: September/11/2008 at 22:00
Went out to sight in my new Leupold VX-II today with some buddies.  We didn't have as much time as I would like so I only got to work with a 25 yard range.  I got it to about 3/4" - 1" to the right and 1/2" high from dead-on bullseye.  Had to leave before I could fine tune any more.

My question.  Is that close enough for hog and deer hunting?  Also, how would my shots look at 50, 100, 150 or 200 yards based on what it looked like at 25 yards?  I have heard that a bullet will hit approximately the same place at 25 yards as it does at 100 yards.  True?

I am shooting a Rem 700 30-06 with winchester XP3 bullets.

Thanks!


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There are 3 kinds of people in this world...those that can count and those that can't!



Replies:
Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: September/11/2008 at 23:05
uuuhhh........ I MUST be one that can't!   Smile
 
 
 
edit to add: it had been a while since I had read this post and couldn't figure out what the heck I was talking about Smile. Then I remembered, my post was referring to his "signature".


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take em!


Posted By: antleraddiction
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 00:02
Frankly, NO...........sighting in at 25yards is a waste of time and ammo IMO.  Get on paper @ 25 and sight in @ 100................Just my 2 centsLoco


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 00:22
In theory you should be able to do it, in reality it's not that simple.  .75 to 1 inch right at 25 yards!!!!   WOW that thing is WAY off.  To move 3/4 of an inch at 100yds is 3 clicks on a 1/4 MOA scope.  AT 25yds you would need 12 clicks.   12 clicks off at 100yds is 3 inches!!!  At 150yrds your 4.5 inches off and at 200yrds your 6 inches off.   I would spend some more time dialing that thing in.  A Remmy 700 should be easy to sight in.  pull the bolt, bore sight, load an shoot.   Remington as a free balistics software you can use to optimize your loads for whitetail.
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/remington_shoot_ballistics_software.asp - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/remington_shoot_ballistics_software.asp   see if this helps


  Mike


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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 05:56
If you are zeroed at 100 yds, then you will shoot the same vertical line at 25 yds. But not the other way round. In other words if you zeroed at 25 yds then you MIGHT be off left or right at the longer distances due to "minute of angle" coming in to play. As Steelbenz said above a 1/4 inch off at 25 yds is 1 inch at 100 yds etc.
 
The horizontal point of impact (high or low) will depend on caliber and ballistics.
 
I had a friend who only had access to a 25 yds indoor range. He was regularly hitting 300Win shells at 25 yds. Then one day I took him to a 100 yds range....... He could not hit a beer can untill he re-adjusted his scope reticule.


Posted By: martin3175
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 06:48
Sorry--gotta go back and site it in at 100 , and for my $ , I would give 200 a try to know where she hits when that shot becomes a possibility in the field. You owe it the the game you are gonna be hunting to ensure a quick kill, and you need to be confident and accurate at the yardage at which a shot could be taken. 


Posted By: AimingHigh
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 10:00
Thanks for the replys.  I am going to go back and sight it in again.  I would feel alot better and it looks like I'm farther away than I thought.

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There are 3 kinds of people in this world...those that can count and those that can't!


Posted By: lucytuma
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 13:51
I'd also go for a 100yd. zero. It's just right and also makes for better shooting practice.

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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: bugsNbows
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 14:53
I always  zero at 100. The 25 just gets in on paper.

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If we're not suppose to eat animals...how come they're made of meat?
               Anomymous


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/12/2008 at 15:04
I believe what you are referring to is the M16 Battle Sight Zero, which allows one to zero the M16 at 25m and then engage targets out to 300m. I have, for time's sake, "zeroed" one of my 30-06's at 25, which is adequate for deer out to 100yds... Truthfully, I have not attempted shooting at a target with the -06 "zeroed" at 25 beyond 100 in a LONG time, so I cannot confidently say how it would actually react, but my ballistics calculator says it will respond in much the same manner as the M16, being about 3in high at 100, 4in high at 150-175yd and about 1in low at 300. Next time I go to the range, I will try it out, again.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/04/2008 at 19:10
Went to range today specifically to try out the BSZ. Seems to be good for 30-06.
Details:
Rifle: the tactical 30-06 I am building; WinMod70, Choate Super Sniper stock, barrel cut to 20" and recrowned.
Optics: Ellis Optics MK-7 4-16 scope (1st time used).
Ammo: 147gr Korean Military reloaded with Berdan Primer, non-corrosive powder
Temp approximately 72degF, humidity approximately 42%, altitude approximately 1200ft, wind approximately 10mph varied direction.
Boresighted scope with BSA boresighter.
Picture below shows zero at 25yds. After 1st round, adjusted for zero, fired two rounds, adjusted for zero, fired 3 round zero group. Measured .293in with caliper accurate to +/- .001in. Indications from this firing exercise is that IF I had not "zeroed", the rife should have been "dead on" at 100yds (1st round dead center 3in low)



Moved to 100yd range.
A gentleman at the range wanted to shoot my rifle so the first shot was fired by a "sighter". Single shot was 2in high, almost dead center.
I fired a 3 round group which measured .751in with caliper, approximately 2.75in to 3.25in high. See below:



This exercise would appear to bear out the Battle Sight Zero philosophy, at least for 30-06 (it was quite accurate with ammo that is notoriously not very precise). Using the information gained from this exercise, zeroing at 25 yd will give me an easy 300yd dead on shot. Consistent with M16 training.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/04/2008 at 19:57
i have been having hell with my 22-250 and i dont know why i got close at 25yds went dead center at 50yds and then when i stepped back to 100yds i wasnt even on the paper, so next time i go i guess im going to have to use freezer paper on the whole 4x8 sheet of ply wood to figure out where the hell i am at, pisses me off though

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/04/2008 at 20:14
Pyro, that sounds like the problem I was having with this 30-06 and the reason I went to a Choate stock. After the second round, there was no telling where the third and beyond were going to go. Changing stocks made a world of difference and cutting six inches off the barrel made even more. I bought the rifle used, probably heavily used. It is doing well now.
Check to see if your stock is touching the barrel???? If so, you know, as it heats up it will play havoc with accuracy.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/04/2008 at 20:21
 its a propblem that started a while back i took my scope off that rifle so i could use it for test drive scopes, when i got the vortex diamondback i had no trouble getting it to sight in, when i got the zeiss conquest i had no luck at 100 and now that i am putting a team primos on it still no luck at 100yds so i am at a loss its either way high or way low, im guessing its way high

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/04/2008 at 20:41
Too bad Minnesota is so far away. I love solving problems like this. Let me know how this turns out. I am intrigued.



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/04/2008 at 20:58
will do, maybe the weather will cooperate next weekend

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: October/05/2008 at 04:05
Originally posted by AimingHigh AimingHigh wrote:

Went out to sight in my new Leupold VX-II today with some buddies.  We didn't have as much time as I would like so I only got to work with a 25 yard range.  I got it to about 3/4" - 1" to the right and 1/2" high from dead-on bullseye.  Had to leave before I could fine tune any more.

My question.  Is that close enough for hog and deer hunting?  Also, how would my shots look at 50, 100, 150 or 200 yards based on what it looked like at 25 yards?  I have heard that a bullet will hit approximately the same place at 25 yards as it does at 100 yards.  True?

I am shooting a Rem 700 30-06 with winchester XP3 bullets.

Thanks!
..................That would be fine assuming you get a shot at 50 yards or less....NO! That is not good enough for longer shots on hog sized game with the smaller kill zones into the vitals......... Here are a few good tips.
 
You need at least a 100 yards for properly sighting in a rifle. You also need to know your bullet`s MV and BC (ballistic co-efficient), which will determine for you the bullet trajectory during flight.
 
I mostly hunt big hogs. I use a 300 WSM with 180 gr. Hornady SST`s @ a chrono`d average of 2900 fps. Regardless of the game or shooting distances, that particular rifle is always sighted in at a 300 yard zero on all my hunts. Doing that helps eliminate alot of aiming guesswork for shots between 200 and 400 yards. For the closer shots, I just put the crosshairs a little lower on the animal and for 350 to 400 yard shots, I hold a higher aim. I know in 50 yard increments, exactly what my bullet trajectories are and depending on the shooting distance, how much higher to aim or how much lower to aim. 
 
It also helps tremendously to have a rangefinder WITH the angle compensator, which I do have.
 
If you wish to be dead nuts accurate with your bullet impact, borrow or buy a chrony to measure your bullet`s average MV`s,  determine your bullet`s BC and then along with the bullet weight, your zero in yards, type in all that info on the external ballistics calculator such as the one on the Hornady website. Whichever zero in yardage you type in, it will automatically calculate in 50 and 100 yard increments, the hold over/under trajectories, the downrange velocities and energys, so that you can see exactly what that bullet will do in flight from the instant it leaves your barrel to the point of impact.
 
I did drop with one shot, (DRT), a 302 lb hog, from a distance which my rangefinder said was 342 yards (my longest shot on a hog), after the angle compensation was taken into account. Due to my 300 yard zero hunting preference, the bullet impacted exactly where it was suppose to go, with little or no aiming guesswork.
 
With the right tools and knowing your ballistic math, you cannot miss,,, IF,,, you do your part properly. 
 


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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/05/2008 at 16:16
The key is knowing where the kill zone is on a hog along with knowing and having confidence in the weapon. Given that the 25yd BSZ holds, which I just proved for one 30-06, knowing the ballistics of the ammunition, I would have no trouble at all with zeroing at 25yds to go hog hunting out to 300. I am pretty certain of my ballistics and shooting at ranges where the bullet is still carrying sufficient energy for a kill should not be a big problem. Much, of course, depends on the capabilities of the shooter. As Clint Eastwood so appropriately said "a man has to know his limitations". All that said, if one doesn't normally shoot at ranges beyond 200yds, just because the ballistics calculator says it is possible doesn't mean one CAN do it successfully. Practice, practice, practice. Know the weapon/optics, the ammo, yourself, before making the longer shots. That one 30-06 is BSZ'ed and I have confidence in the ballistics. However, until I take any of my other rifles out, zero at 25, prove the ballistics calculations, I would not go hunting with them with a 25yd zero. So Big Squeeze, you are right and wrong at the same time.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: October/05/2008 at 20:07
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

The key is knowing where the kill zone is on a hog along with knowing and having confidence in the weapon. Given that the 25yd BSZ holds, which I just proved for one 30-06, knowing the ballistics of the ammunition, I would have no trouble at all with zeroing at 25yds to go hog hunting out to 300. I am pretty certain of my ballistics and shooting at ranges where the bullet is still carrying sufficient energy for a kill should not be a big problem. Much, of course, depends on the capabilities of the shooter. As Clint Eastwood so appropriately said "a man has to know his limitations". All that said, if one doesn't normally shoot at ranges beyond 200yds, just because the ballistics calculator says it is possible doesn't mean one CAN do it successfully. Practice, practice, practice. Know the weapon/optics, the ammo, yourself, before making the longer shots. That one 30-06 is BSZ'ed and I have confidence in the ballistics. However, until I take any of my other rifles out, zero at 25, prove the ballistics calculations, I would not go hunting with them with a 25yd zero. So Big Squeeze, you are right and wrong at the same time.
............................Then let me re-phrase things just a little! "WITH PRACTICE" and  testing, there shouldn`t be a problem. It is interesting though, that when I type in my bullet`s BC, weight, MV and do a 300 yard zero, my points of impact or trajectories at the various yardage increments, matches to a tee what the ballistics calculator says!!! Well! Well!...How interesting!

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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: October/06/2008 at 08:38
kickboxer - isn't the "BSA boresighter" set up for a 100 yrd zero?  The fact that you used a boresighter really isn't a fair comparison for what was initially described!
 
pyro - have you tried taking the bolt out and looking down the barrel to see if scope and barrel are in alignment at 100 yrds?


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take em!


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/06/2008 at 21:44
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

kickboxer - isn't the "BSA boresighter" set up for a 100 yrd zero?  The fact that you used a boresighter really isn't a fair comparison for what was initially described!
 

pyro - have you tried taking the bolt out and looking down the barrel to see if scope and barrel are in alignment at 100 yrds?

Correct and not so correct. While the boresighter is set up for 100yd, I zeroed at 25. As I said, had I not zeroed at 25, it appears it would have been dead on at 100. Check the charts...




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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/06/2008 at 21:47
Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

The key is knowing where the kill zone is on a hog along with knowing and having confidence in the weapon. Given that the 25yd BSZ holds, which I just proved for one 30-06, knowing the ballistics of the ammunition, I would have no trouble at all with zeroing at 25yds to go hog hunting out to 300. I am pretty certain of my ballistics and shooting at ranges where the bullet is still carrying sufficient energy for a kill should not be a big problem. Much, of course, depends on the capabilities of the shooter. As Clint Eastwood so appropriately said "a man has to know his limitations". All that said, if one doesn't normally shoot at ranges beyond 200yds, just because the ballistics calculator says it is possible doesn't mean one CAN do it successfully. Practice, practice, practice. Know the weapon/optics, the ammo, yourself, before making the longer shots. That one 30-06 is BSZ'ed and I have confidence in the ballistics. However, until I take any of my other rifles out, zero at 25, prove the ballistics calculations, I would not go hunting with them with a 25yd zero. So Big Squeeze, you are right and wrong at the same time.
............................Then let me re-phrase things just a little! "WITH PRACTICE" and  testing, there shouldn`t be a problem. It is interesting though, that when I type in my bullet`s BC, weight, MV and do a 300 yard zero, my points of impact or trajectories at the various yardage increments, matches to a tee what the ballistics calculator says!!! Well! Well!...How interesting!

I know, the calculator is always right, or close to always, I just have this obsessive compulsive desire to always check it out...
And I am quite certain you practice sufficiently, comment was meant for those who only practice when they absolutely HAVE to.
Peace, Bro. Don't taze me...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: October/06/2008 at 21:47
i dont trust any bore sighters, they will get you on paper but thats about it as far as my luck goes, never had that perfect setup with a bore sighter

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: October/07/2008 at 11:53
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

The key is knowing where the kill zone is on a hog along with knowing and having confidence in the weapon. Given that the 25yd BSZ holds, which I just proved for one 30-06, knowing the ballistics of the ammunition, I would have no trouble at all with zeroing at 25yds to go hog hunting out to 300. I am pretty certain of my ballistics and shooting at ranges where the bullet is still carrying sufficient energy for a kill should not be a big problem. Much, of course, depends on the capabilities of the shooter. As Clint Eastwood so appropriately said "a man has to know his limitations". All that said, if one doesn't normally shoot at ranges beyond 200yds, just because the ballistics calculator says it is possible doesn't mean one CAN do it successfully. Practice, practice, practice. Know the weapon/optics, the ammo, yourself, before making the longer shots. That one 30-06 is BSZ'ed and I have confidence in the ballistics. However, until I take any of my other rifles out, zero at 25, prove the ballistics calculations, I would not go hunting with them with a 25yd zero. So Big Squeeze, you are right and wrong at the same time.
............................Then let me re-phrase things just a little! "WITH PRACTICE" and  testing, there shouldn`t be a problem. It is interesting though, that when I type in my bullet`s BC, weight, MV and do a 300 yard zero, my points of impact or trajectories at the various yardage increments, matches to a tee what the ballistics calculator says!!! Well! Well!...How interesting!

I know, the calculator is always right, or close to always, I just have this obsessive compulsive desire to always check it out...
And I am quite certain you practice sufficiently, comment was meant for those who only practice when they absolutely HAVE to.
Peace, Bro. Don't taze me...
................Don`t taze me bro??????????????????????..............Kboxr!Laser%20Zap Squeezer!..........Roll%20on%20Floor%20Laughing

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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/10/2008 at 17:44
Disintegrated...
How demoralizing.

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living



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