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best scope?

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12331
Printed Date: March/29/2024 at 09:08
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Topic: best scope?
Posted By: 300ultra
Subject: best scope?
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 15:17
been researching this to death, need some input. I have a remington 700pss in 300 ultramag, choate ultimate sniper stock, harris brs bipod, custom muzzlebrake and trigger, 20moa farrell base, all the goodies. weighs appr. 17lbs. this is my "toy", looking for the best glass in the 800-1200 dollar price range?? considerations have been, swarovski av 6-18x50, mk4 4.5-14x50, horus vision raptor4-16x50, nikon tactical 4-16x50, elite 6500 4.5-30x50, and maby a z6 demo 2-12x50. HELP!!!!!!!



Replies:
Posted By: Optimus Prime
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 15:27

If adequate eye relief, tracking, repeatability, glass quality, and a world class customer service dept in the highly unlikely event that you'll ever need it mean anything to you, theres really only 1 choice......The choice of working professionals. Excellent



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He did it HIS way!!!


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 15:38
" Well, we heard fwom Otimus Pwime and he thinks Weupold is the best...Anyone else wanna twy one...? "
 
                                    


Posted By: Optimus Prime
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 15:45
Oooops...I forgot about the comments from the OT peanut gallery...Roll%20Eyes 
 


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He did it HIS way!!!


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 15:53
Originally posted by Optimus Prime Optimus Prime wrote:

If adequate eye relief, tracking, repeatability, glass quality, and a world class customer service dept in the highly unlikely event that you'll ever need it mean anything to you, theres really only 1 choice......The choice of working professionals... Excellent


who get a significant discount.

If you get an LE or military discount, Leupold is a good choice; however, if you do not get the discount, something else is almost always the better deal.

At what ranges will you be shooting?

in truth, for that rifle, I would recommend this:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx



They also make a 3-18; however, the configuration of the main tube leaves too little room on the back to mount a ring and still have adjustment range for a long-action rifle.

4-14X will do nicely for anything out to 800+ yards, and IOR's elevation range is generous.


If I were you, I'd skip Leupold unless you get the discount.  The IOR is a much better scope.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:08
RC, clean out your mail box

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:10
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

" Well, we heard fwom Otimus Pwime and he thinks Weupold is the best...Anyone else wanna twy one...? "
 
                                    
......... Hey Optwimus.................Even I,,,, bought a 1.5-5x20 Wee X thwee for my,,,, twee 75 Wooo-ger Awaskan!!.......

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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:13
I agree with RC, Go with the IOR.

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:22
IOR Thunbs%20Up, Leupold Thumbs%20Down

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:30
With the Leupold 4.5-14x you may have a problem mounting it on a long action.  You may not be able to get the scope pulled back far enough towards your eye to get proper eye relief.  THe bell of the scope hits the front of the base.  I seen that on two short action rifles this spring at a rifle class.  They both since then have had their stocks cut shorter.  So I am thinking with a long action this could really pose a problem. 

The IOR 4-14x is longer and will probably work better for you.


Leupold 4.5-14x


If you want to go with the Leupold I would get this one.  It will give you a little more length to play with.  Leupold 6.5-20x



-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Optimus Prime
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:32
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

IOR Thunbs%20Up, Leupold Thumbs%20Down
 
Leupold has a world class customer service dept and custom shop. 
IOR has....Val.  Roll%20on%20Floor%20Laughing Excellent
 
 


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He did it HIS way!!!


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:36
My one problem with IOR out of the 6 I have had and I had a brand new scope in my hands in a week.  That is pretty good service if you ask me.

And I would rather be able to see my target well than be able to brag about Leupold have a cool custom shop.


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:52
Although I own a VX3, I`m not a big Leupy fan either. Pay more; get less!...........But they do offer a huge selection in the 1" straight tubed, low powered variables, with great eye relief for the DGR`s; my Ruger Alaskan as an example................Though there are better scopes optically for less and even more money out there, my VX3 will still do the job well on any hunt.   

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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Optimus Prime
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 16:58
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

My one problem with IOR out of the 6 I have had and I had a brand new scope in my hands in a week.  That is pretty good service if you ask me.
 
Well now, I'm truly happy for your good fortune, BUT not everybody has been as fortunate as you concerning IOR's much maligned CS dept.
Some of the less fortunate IOR customers that have struggled with IOR's CS even frequent this forum.
But, I digress.
 
I'm not one to name names or anything that counter-productive. Wink    


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He did it HIS way!!!


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:00
nobody likes swarovski or nikon i guess, but thanks for the input, good point on the scope length on a long action!!!!! 6.5-20x50 mk4 possible.the ior 4-14 pics that i see either have the large knobs or small, which is which??


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:03
For the price you pay and what little you get with that Leo, They should hand deliver the dang thing and give you a Kiss too.  Like CS is the only thing that matters, how about bang for your buck?  Sorry you just can't convince me.

I will agree with you about Dale though!!!  

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Optimus Prime
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:06
Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Though there are better scopes optically for less and even more money out there, my VX3 will still do the job well on any hunt.   
 
Ok...you bought the Leupold because it was more expensive and you LOVE over spending Bucky or it was the best scope for the job? Loco
 
Man this place makes me dizzy from all the spin.....I need a drink!   
 


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He did it HIS way!!!


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:18
Optimus, nice to know you haven't changed, everything is right with the world.

Leupold has great customer service and decent product; IOR has great product and decent customer service: spend the money where you want.  Since I don't use Customer Service in my day-to-day shoting, I choose the product every time.


Swaro makes an exceptional scope but, like I said before, the AH isn't designed for the recoil you will be generating.  Call their Service Department and they will recommend you not put an AH on a 300RUM.

Nikon is OK, their tactical scope is not bad for the price, but not in the same league with the IOR - glass or features.

If you plan on long-range shooting, it's nice top have the large elevation knob so you don't get lost spinning up your dope.


Mailbox cleared, fire away.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Optimus Prime
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:23
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Optimus, nice to know you haven't changed, everything is right with the world.
 
Bow
 
I like to call it consistant. Wink


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He did it HIS way!!!


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:35
ok no swarovski av, what about the z6(z6i) vs. the ior?????


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:41
Originally posted by Optimus Prime Optimus Prime wrote:

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Though there are better scopes optically for less and even more money out there, my VX3 will still do the job well on any hunt.   
 
Ok...you bought the Leupold because it was more expensive and you LOVE over spending Bucky or it was the best scope for the job? Loco
 
Man this place makes me dizzy from all the spin.....I need a drink!   
 
 
He bought the scope because, dimensionally, it fit his rifle.  His first choices would not, so he got the straight tube.  No spin there.....just making compromises.


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:42
[QUOTE=Optimus Prime] like to call it consistant. [QUOTE]

Consistent: A mother monkey never thinks her baby is ugly.

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Tom





Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:42
Originally posted by Optimus Prime Optimus Prime wrote:

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Though there are better scopes optically for less and even more money out there, my VX3 will still do the job well on any hunt.   
 
Ok...you bought the Leupold because it was more expensive and you LOVE over spending Bucky or it was the best scope for the job? Loco
 
Man this place makes me dizzy from all the spin.....I need a drink!   
 
.....................There are several reasons why I bought the VX3 and why I was willing to pay more! In this case, I did not overspend,,,TOO MUCH!
 
Better selections and reticle choices in the 1" ers (ONLY), vs the 4200`s, the Nikons, the Burris, Zeiss, etc. etc. I did not want a 30 mm tube.
 
I wanted a light weight, fast to target, straight tubed scope (NO OBJ. BELLS), with good FOV`s,,,,as a true DGR rifle scope`s characteristics should really be! 
 
I prefer the faster target acquiring German #4 reticle, as the best reticle for a DGR scope!
 
The VX3 straight tube scope is well porportioned to the Ruger Alaskan`s OAL of 40.5"
 
The 1.5-5x20 magnification is absolutely ideal for the .375 Ruger cartridge.
 
Optically, the VX3`s glass is good enough for any hunting that I will ever do with that rifle.
 
Instead of paying the $449 price, SWFA made me a better deal.... I`m NOT telling!!
 
That damn gold ring looks good with an all black rifle such as my Alaskan!!! 
 
No spinnin with me!!...............You can have yer drink now!!!Boozer


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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:50
I don't believe Swaro make a target/tactical type scope.  All their scopes are geared more towards the hunter.  If you want to shoot multiple distances and do it right you need to get a target type scope with adjustable turrets, like the IOR, or the Leupold MK4, or a Nightforce or something along those lines.

I am not going to argue to much about Leupold scopes.  They do make a good scope, it is just MK4 variable scopes glass is not even in the same league with scopes with German glass.  Not even close.  If you went with a fixed MK4 they are much much better, but still not as good as an IOR. 
I shot my IOR 3-18x next to a couple Leupold 4.5-14x scopes at a rifle class this spring and the difference was shocking.  The Leupold's looked like someone had put a dark filter over the objectives.  Shooting targets at 600,700,800 yards became much more difficult as it was considerably harder to make out your target.  I just don't see the point in handicapping yourself that way when there are better options in the same price range.  If Leupold's were $800 instead of $1200 then hell ya that would be a good deal, but not at the current prices.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:57


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 17:59

Actually if your custom muzzle brake is really effective the Swarovski av just might be the ticket. Defiantly better glass than the other choices you list. And if you are looking at a Swarovski z6 demo that ups the dollar amount past your $1200 from what I have seen on the sample list. And at that point I would consider a Nightforce 3.5-15 or 5.5-22.



Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:02
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

......................That must be Optimusesssssss,,,,,,,WIFE,,,, laying on the couch for some therapy???.....................Big%20GrinBig%20GrinBig%20GrinBig%20GrinBig%20Grin........Yep,%20Thought%20So

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300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:06
i can get a z6 2-12x50 demo locally for 1200-1300, is it better glass than ior??? now i'll hit with this one, currently i have an elite 3200 10x40 mildot on it and it zeroed in 6 shots(100yd zero) 3 shots cloverleafed(1 hole). how much better is the 4200 tactical 6-24x50 than what i have now?? 10x40 3200 is what is standard on model 99 barrett.


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:13
IOR is good glass but the z6 is much better. Plus Swarovski's CS is out standing. Take a look at the SWFA scope rating scale.


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:13
" No, Señor, eet ees mi amigo, Eduardo--he always needs counselling after thee talking about thee Leupold scopes....thee whole chimichanga needs counselling now!!!  Ai, what a bunch of gringos, eh, vato!!  But they are very funny guys, don't ju think? "
 


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:17
anything on the bushnells???


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:37
Bushnells will not have enough elevation for what your gun is capable of, unless you get one of the 6500s

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:53
hows the glass on the 6500 vs. the 3200 i have now??


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 18:54
If you want great glass and great features in a consistent, precise scope, there is no easy or cheap way to get there.

The Z6 would be a great scope, but I don't think they have one with target turrets.  If you plan to shoot different ranges, you really want target turrets.

Swaro is a great hunting scope: do you want a hunting scope?  Do you want a tactical scope?

Thus far in the conversation, we have gone from the top to mid-llevel and there is little clarity in what you need AND want.

Do you want tactical?
Is clarity more important than precision?
At what ranges will you be shooting?
What is your experience level with long-range?
Do you reload?
Do you have a preference in scope models or makers?


Nightforce is a great scope and you might to consider.  IOR has the larger elevation knob which is a huge + for long range.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 19:03


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 19:10
i have been looking and reading about so many it is overwhelming. as for experience i am a current law enforcement marksman and am looking for the best i can get for the money, our dept. rifles have mk4 3.5-10x40's but i am impressed with them, i want better for my personal rifle. i usually only have access to 100-200 yard ranges but hope to try 1000+ at some point. so fire away.


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 19:59
i wanted to say i am NOT impressed with our mk4"s, sorry for the misprint.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 20:27
Not impressed with the glass?


My recommendation, based on what you've said so far: Nightforce or IOR.  It goes a LONG WAY that SWFA sells IOR and not Nightforce - buy from SWFA if possible.

I'll reiterate the previous recommendation:  IOR 4-14x50 with illuminated MP8.  When compared to a Mk4, you will be very pleased.




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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 20:29
Originally posted by 300ultra 300ultra wrote:

hows the glass on the 6500 vs. the 3200 i have now??
considering the price difference it better be a lot! i havent looked through a 6500 but im sure its impressive.


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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: August/12/2008 at 21:52
The glass is much better but you are getting a lot of other features. More elevation Larger erector plus the better glass. Focus on the features you want and at what price. You can't get it all. Cencored You are still going in circles.

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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 06:42
The Larger Erector is a big selling point.    Light%20It%20Up


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 09:49
Thank God I bought my scope before I joined this forum. I would still be out there looking and deciding!!
Sorry guys, I am not saying that this forum is confusing, only that the choices we have today are mindblowing. It makes it extremely difficult to advise someone else. Just when you come up with a good choice, someone else has a better one.
Maybe the starting point is to advise what NOT to buy???


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 09:57
Just BUY it!!  Who cares what everybody else thinks!!!  But if you DO spend a lot of money---just make sure it's better than a Leupold!!!  That's my motto.  Unless, of course, I get a Leupold because it's the only scope that will fit the rifle--- geometrically-speaking. 
 
Does that make sense?             


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 10:47
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Who cares what everybody else thinks!!!


Mr. Ed, I love your humor, and I think you are being facetious with this remark.

8Shots, I, too, am often frustrated by responses that are overly subjective and offer little or nothing to the advice being sought. I wish the respondents would be more objective.

What I mean is this: Objective information is observable. It is able to be seen, to be described, and to be reproduced. I look for comments like "this is what I did and this is what I saw" when the information is not well known. That gives the audience of this forum the opportunity to comment objectively. This is the kind of information that is helpful in decision making.

Conversely, we often see comments that are nothing more than one's opinion, not based on fact. It can vary from person to person, and, unfortunately, it can take on a life of its own. It is destructive to decision making.


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Tom





Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 11:13
Yes.....it's a forum.....not a classroom.  We do have a little fun around here.  The serious remarks can go around our funny stuff.  You don't have to trip over it.         


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 11:17
To an extent that is all it can be is an opinion.

I like IOR scopes better than Nightforce.  I think they have clearer glass.

Rancid Coolaid thinks just the opposite.  Who is right and who is wrong?  Everyone see's things different, everyone has different ideas of what they like the best.  Is it right or wrong?  I don't think so. 
When someone asks what is best, that is a pretty open ended question.  How are we suppose to respond?  Most of us are stating what we like best based on the fact that we have these scopes or have compared them side by side to X scope.  But it is still all opinion to an extent.  Obviously if we are comparing a $300 scope to a $1300 scope the $1300 is going to be better.  But comparing a $1500 IOR to a $1500 Nightforce to a $1500 Leupold it is all going to be opinion.  Most of us don't have equipment to test these scopes all we have are our eyes and the ability to shoot using them and to play with the adjustments.  All we can do it talk about glass quality, appearance, durability, repeatability and so on. 

And even most of that is completely opinion based.

A big part of the time the person asking questions has no idea what they need for their type of shooting and have no idea of what scope to even consider.  So of course they are going to get all kinds of options and opinions of what is best.  You have to remember whe have all kinds of shooters on this forum.  We have hunters and target shooters and tactical shooters and each disapline has different needs.  But someonet that is only a hunter may think X scope is the best scope made, and maybe it is for hunting.  But that person may be completely nieve when it comes to what is needed for tactical shooting. 

So ya, 90% of this is going to be completely subjective and completely opinion based.  Scopes are all about opinion, someone manufacture thinks X and X added to this scope will make it the best, another thinks X and X will make it the best.  What else can we do other than share our opinions of using the scopes?






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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 12:54
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

To an extent that is all it can be is an opinion.


You think the glass is clearer on A than on B, and someone else holds the converse opinion. Sharpness or resolution and those kinds of optical characteristics are definable. The fact is that either the two scopes are identical in terms of clarity and both of you are wrong, or that they are in fact different and one of you is wrong. No, Mr. Ed, this doesn't have to be a classroom where we use MTF to describe resolution, but it might tell us which scope had better resolution.

The difference in the two opinions could probably be explained if we knew how the two of you came by your opinions. What did you actually do to form your opinion? Describe what you did in a way that others can reproduce it. Your testing doesn't have to be fancy, just verifiable. For example, if you looked at an eye exam chart of the letter E, lots of questions would be answered. Use multiple scopes to look at a deer decoy against a background of your choice. Do what is of interest to you. Others who have similar interests will surely try to reproduce your results. I call it peer review. Then, if I have a similar interest, I will have confidence that I can use the results to save me a lot of time and money.

Yes, there are some things that are totally subjective. Appearance is an example; silver vs matte. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is an old proverb that says, "A monkey never thinks her baby is ugly."

As regards asking what is best, I note that some members drill down by asking questions that enable them to provide answers more specific to the matter.

As regards your comments base on having owned different scopes, I appreciate, and value, comments made about scopes users have compared and contrasted for different options. For example, you might say that the mag ring is more this or that on A as compared to B. Yes, it is an opinion, but it is an opinion based on fact, and that is an objective appraisal. That kind of information helps one make an informed decision.



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Tom





Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 13:17
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Yes.....it's a forum.....not a classroom.  We do have a little fun around here.  The serious remarks can go around our funny stuff.  You don't have to trip over it.        


That this is a forum, an opportunity for an open discussions, goes without question, but when an effort is made to impart knowledge, as clearly happens on this forum, that is called teaching.

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Tom





Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 13:33
When you have a humans as the testers then the results are always going to be different.  Whether it is cars, politics, handguns, rifles, scopes, religion, or whatever.  One person is always going to think something else is better than what the other guy has used.  One person might like the knobs better on a Leupold vs a Nightforce, how are you to say which one is better.  When the glass quality is within 5% of each other how can a person really tell which one is better without equipment.  If while testing the sun moves behind a cloud or the wind pics up and changes the mirage or you start to get eye fatigue from sitting behind the scopes.  Then that is going to change the results from what they might have been other wise.  All I can do is base my opinion of using the scopes side by side while shooting them.  If one looks clearer to me and seems to look through the mirage better then yes I am going to think it is better scope for that use. 

So until I can get my hands on equipment to do proper tests on this stuff, then I will continue to rely on what other people opinions are base on use of these scopes.  I will take what they say is best and go to the store and compare them and then buy the one that looks the best to me.  That is all that can be done. 

And for what it is worth, the only two scopes that has really been recommended in this topic is an IOR or Leupold.  And there is definite opinions on which one is best.  Even though it is obvious the IOR rules.  Big%20Smile  So if we are so bad at offering advice, then please fill us in on what is best based on your testing as I would love to hear it.  And while you are at it go ahead and take the reigns and answer all the questions people come to this forum  for and we will just hand out on the "Ed Show" and talk about girls, and guns. Oh%20Yea%20Baby And other wierd things that Ed brings up.

Sorry for the hijack.  We are now back to debating IOR vs. Leupold.  IOR RULES


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 13:59
As regards your comments base on having owned different scopes, I appreciate, and value, comments made about scopes users have compared and contrasted for different options. For example, you might say that the mag ring is more this or that on A as compared to B. Yes, it is an opinion, but it is an opinion based on fact, and that is an objective appraisal. That kind of information helps one make an informed decision.

[/QUOTE]
Gunshow, I agree with most of what you say, fully agree that experience with particular scopes is very valuable, but believe you picked a poor example.  I might like a solid steel knurled mag ring on Scope A while Scope B has a smooth polycarbonate mag ring.  That would be a completely subjective(Particular to a given person) appraisal.  The facts are one is one type and the other is another. No matter how much information I give, the opinion is still subjective.  To be ojective(Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices), it must be clearly obvious to all.  Unless I test two statistically significant samples of an item under conditions which will lead to an undeniable result, I cannot provide true objectivity.  That is why questions of clarity, low-light utility, ease of operation, etc. are so difficult to answer, unless the scopes are run through an independent optics lab.  I see things differently than most (guarantee that), but do not believe I could without reservation tell someone what is the "best scope".  First of all, while I have "touched" many, I certainly have not touched them all.  If there is a scope that I have experienced significant problems with, and especially repeated problems, then I certainly think my opinion that that scope is one to steer clear of is justified, but it is still based upon MY experience, my opinion.  I recognize that others may have had different experiences upon which they base opinion.  If there are facts that confirm experience, then there is some objectivity to the opinion.  However, no opinion (A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof) is objective.  Now, if I try, say 4, of a particular type of scope, and the mag ring sticks at mid-magnification on all 4, then, in my opinion, that scope is one to be very cautious about purchasing, and I feel I am justified in that opinion by the data I have on hand.  However, it could turn out that I got all 4 assembled by "Ed" on one particular day an he left out the internal lubrication on those 4, but "Ed" realizes what he has done, swears to never do it again, and creates an entire alternate reality in which anthing can happen.  Would I be correct in saying "don't buy scope X... the mag ring sticks."?  Or would I need a bigger sample? 
My opinion. 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 14:39
 
                                                            


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 15:19
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

 
                                                            
............................Roll%20on%20Floor%20Laughing

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 15:25
[QUOTE=supertool73] And for what it is worth, the only two scopes that has really been recommended in this topic is an IOR or Leupold. 

And while you are at it go ahead and take the reigns and answer all the questions people come to this forum  for and we will just hand out on the "Ed Show" and talk about girls, and guns. [QUOTE]

As regards your "for what it is worth," if you take the time to look, you will find that my comments began as a response to comments made by Mr. Ed, where I commented that I thought he was teasing about "Who cares . . .", and to 8shots reply in particular. My comments had nothing in particular to do with IOR or Leupold.

As regards your "And while you are at it ...," your sarcasm is wasted on me.



-------------


Tom





Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 15:35
[QUOTE=Kickboxer] I might like a solid steel knurled mag ring on Scope A while Scope B has a smooth polycarbonate mag ring.  That would be a completely subjective(Particular to a given person) appraisal.  [QUOTE]

Kickboxer, as reagards my example, I was only trying to again define what I meant by being objective. I will give it another shot:

Objective is something based upon fact. It is observable; it can be seen, felt, smelled, and so on. It can be described. To express an opinion that is based upon something that can be described, seen, and so on is to be objective.

Subjective is something not based on fact.

From my point of view, your example is expressing opinion based on fact. You explained why you have your opinion. I am now able to make an informed decision based upon your explanation.

-------------


Tom





Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 15:36
Mr Ed, you are a riot!!!!!!!!! You have a wonderful sense of humor.

-------------


Tom





Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 15:49
             
 
                                                                                 Big%20Smile


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 15:53
There was no sarcasm there.  I meant it, I would gladly like to see someone who has done actual optical tests as you speak of have input on these discussions.

So instead of just telling us you don't like our opinions then give us your facts, and I am not meaning it sarcastically I would really like to see data like that. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 16:57
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:



I like IOR scopes better than Nightforce.  I think they have clearer glass.

Rancid Coolaid thinks just the opposite.  Who is right and who is wrong? 


I am right, you are wrong.  Question: answered.


I would also recommend USO SN3 or S&B PM2; however, of what I understand to be the need and the limitation, I think this exceeds the limitation.

Mostly, for intelligent people anyway, opinions are based on experience - and experience goes a long way in this game.  If someone I trust had a problem with a scope, I am less inclined to purchase that scope.  I have broken 2 Leupolds without excess abuse or effort, I don't buy Leupold.

If you have no experience, you are at the mercy of others who recommend based on experience of who recommend based on what someone else experienced and recommended.  At the very bottom of this data chart should be advertising and what you read in a magazine somewhere.

I've been told I should carry a 1911 because Steven Seagal carries a 1911 - and have been told I shouldn't carry a Beretta M9 because someone can take the slide off in a gunfight.  I've been told Leupold makes the very best scopes money can buy and anyone with half a brain buys Leupold.  I've been told a 300WM was needed to kill Texas white tails and that no one really knows why .308 is such a great caliber, it just is.

Advice should always be weighed and almost nothing should be taken as ultimate truth.

This is a forum, we ain't offering equations or scientific data based on some intricate evaluation:  I broke 2 Leupolds, I don't buy Leupold.  I've been shooting Nightforce for years, I've banged my scope around plenty, and it has never failed.  I owned an IOR, that model was failing at a rate of about 1 in 10, I sold the IOR (to a guy who knew about the failures and bought it knowing this - and I think his failed eventually.)

in here, I offer my experience and some input based on the word of those I know and trust (and present it as such.)

My recommendation, in the following order:

USO SN3: $3,000
S&B PM2: $3,300
Nightforce: $1,600
IOR: $1,500
...
BSA Model POS: $35
Leupold:  $1,500

In the end, buy what you WANT, you gotta live with it - and possibly justify the expenditure to a significant other.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 17:00
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


I am right, you are wrong.  Question: answered.


Mooner


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 18:25
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:



Who is right and who is wrong? 




You asked.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: dougedwards
Date Posted: August/13/2008 at 20:37
OK hows this?   Bushnell 6500 4.5-30x50 Mildot.   Elite 4200 type glass.  Constant 4" eye relief.  21 oz.  Side parallax adjustment.  All turrets return to zero easily.   I have one and it works.  Between $600-$700 brand new.   Take the extra $600 and buy a long range hunting tripBig%20Smile

-------------
but you brethren are not of the flesh but of the spirit if indeed the spirit of Christ dwells within you...Romans 8


Posted By: mercenary1947
Date Posted: August/14/2008 at 09:29
  [/QUOTE] KICKBOXER
 
Or would I need a bigger sample? 
My opinion. 
[/QUOTE]
 
 My wife tells me I need a bigger sample all the time .... or a bigger something .... Bucky
  Of course I'd never spend $ 3,000.00  -  $6,000.00 for a scope anyway .... I'd rather buy a  .50 cal rifle .... I'm seriously debating selling a couple of my never used rifles and getting one .


-------------
One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
               SWFAM


Posted By: mercenary1947
Date Posted: August/14/2008 at 09:44
Originally posted by 300ultra 300ultra wrote:

nobody likes swarovski or nikon i guess, but thanks for the input, good point on the scope length on a long action!!!!! 6.5-20x50 mk4 possible.the ior 4-14 pics that i see either have the large knobs or small, which is which??
 
  I  LOVE NIKONS !!!! 
 
Leupolds are extrememly overpriced for what you get .... they're all
 
BS%20Flaghyped  ......


-------------
One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
               SWFAM


Posted By: 300ultra
Date Posted: August/14/2008 at 16:04
contacted swarovski( i work right around the corner from them) i was told that either the z6 or av are fine for my caliber but the z6 would be brighter(30mm vs. 1inch tube)


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/15/2008 at 09:00
Originally posted by mercenary1947 mercenary1947 wrote:

 
KICKBOXER
 

Or would I need a bigger sample? 

My opinion. 
[/QUOTE]
 

 My wife tells me I need a bigger sample all the time .... or a bigger something .... Bucky

  Of course I'd never spend $ 3,000.00  -  $6,000.00 for a scope anyway .... I'd rather buy a  .50 cal rifle .... I'm seriously debating selling a couple of my never used rifles and getting one .
[/QUOTE]
Merc, I love your rifle choices... never go undergunned.

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/15/2008 at 09:04
Originally posted by Gunshow75 Gunshow75 wrote:

[QUOTE=Kickboxer] I might like a solid steel knurled mag ring on Scope A while Scope B has a smooth polycarbonate mag ring.  That would be a completely subjective(Particular to a given person) appraisal.  [QUOTE]

Kickboxer, as reagards my example, I was only trying to again define what I meant by being objective. I will give it another shot:

Objective is something based upon fact. It is observable; it can be seen, felt, smelled, and so on. It can be described. To express an opinion that is based upon something that can be described, seen, and so on is to be objective.

Subjective is something not based on fact.

From my point of view, your example is expressing opinion based on fact. You explained why you have your opinion. I am now able to make an informed decision based upon your explanation.

Gunshow, I was just "bustin' your chops" a little. You were requiring a "higher level" of precision, but dropped a little of your own. I am glad you are aboard. You have provided some excellent information. Thank you for some really thought provoking analysis.

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/15/2008 at 10:48
My wife will tell you that I am hard-headed, opinionated, and lots of other things I can't say here. She is right. She will also tell you that I don't mean any harm to anyone.

I am certain I deserve having my "chops busted," now and again, and it could not come from a nicer group.

I like your "Opinion, untempered by fact, is ignorance." I don't remember where I heard it, but someone once said something like, "Ignorance is correctable." I think that is true.

I truly enjoy the forum, and thanks for the welcome.



-------------


Tom





Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/15/2008 at 10:54
Glad you are aboard.

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: mercenary1947
Date Posted: August/15/2008 at 15:37
 Gunshow75 .... none of you want to hear what my wife calls me at times ... alot of times .... and probably tells all her friends ..... LOL   Now that you're here stick around .... and don't get upset if someone on here smacks your chops ... h*ll they smack me around alot sometimes .... LOL

-------------
One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
               SWFAM


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: August/15/2008 at 15:50
Hell merc, you showin' your sensitive side now???

-------------
God save the Empire!


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: August/16/2008 at 04:00
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I shot my IOR 3-18x next to a couple Leupold 4.5-14x scopes at a rifle class this spring and the difference was shocking.  The Leupold's looked like someone had put a dark filter over the objectives.  Shooting targets at 600,700,800 yards became much more difficult as it was considerably harder to make out your target.  I just don't see the point in handicapping yourself that way when there are better options in the same price range.  If Leupold's were $800 instead of $1200 then hell ya that would be a good deal, but not at the current prices.

I agree completely with that sentiment.  However I advise against the 3-18 FFP for any big gun.  As much as I love it, they just haven't gotten that scope right yet.  At 17 lbs his rifle won't break them as fast as mine, but your chances of being left high and dry are dramatically increased with that scope.  I have had good luck with the 4-14 and 2.5-10 and would recommend them without hesitation and though I haven't used it, I know the 3-18 SFP has been pretty durable for others.  But sadly, I say give the 3-18 FFP a couple more years to see if they fix the damn thing.


Posted By: Gunshow75
Date Posted: August/17/2008 at 17:50
Originally posted by mercenary1947 mercenary1947 wrote:

 Now that you're here stick around .... and don't get upset if someone on here smacks your chops ... h*ll they smack me around alot sometimes .... LOL


Thanks for the nice thoughts. I am not going anywhere. I assure you that nothing in this thread even came close to getting me to raise my eyebrows, much less be upset.

I was taught that "bustin your chops" is Irish slang for "I was just foolin with you. Don't take it personal."



-------------


Tom





Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/18/2008 at 07:36
Absolutely correct...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: mercenary1947
Date Posted: August/18/2008 at 07:58
Welcome  ..........  Gunshow75  !  No the guys on here are'nt like some of the nasty idiots on other forums .... and the ones who were are'nt here anymore ....  LOL

-------------
One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
               SWFAM



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