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Please help with your input on scopes

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Varmint Scopes
Forum Description: Critter gittin' scopes
Printed Date: February/17/2019 at 14:08
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 -

Topic: Please help with your input on scopes
Posted By: nortac
Subject: Please help with your input on scopes
Date Posted: June/17/2008 at 20:48
I just had a custom 22-250 built on a Remington 700 action with a Shilen match grade SS barrel.  It has a 1 in 8" twist for shooting 80grain bullets.  I plan to shoot Hornady A-max and some others in that range.  I plan on shooting the A-max at approximately 3200fps and with a BC of .453 it should do great but there is not much to compare it to with other calibers for ballistics.

I want a scope that has an excellent reticle system that can be used to choose different ranges with.  I also want an illuminated reticle which may or may not happen.  I am not sure on how to use the MP-8 reticle since it is in the SFP and I don't know how to use it as a known distance shot placement reticle.

I am trying to decide on three scopes that I am unable to make a final decision on.

1. Leupold 6-20x50 30mm SF Varmint reticle - I like the reticle and price but I don't like the triangle stuff. 

2. Zeiss Conquest 6,5-20x50 1" SF Rapid Z Varmint reticle - I am not a fan of Zeiss's calculation table on their website.   I do like the reticle about the same as the Leupolds.

3. IOR Valdada 6-24x50 35mm Illuminated MP-8 reticle.  Everything I want but I have to use the dial to make range adjustments and I would like to get away from that.

I like all three, I like the Leupolds price, the IOR's Illumination and the Zeiss's exact dial adjustment based on the calculations table from their website.

So any input would be great.

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/17/2008 at 22:37

the ballistic profile curve is not caliber specific, your load will look like any other load with that bc shot at that velocity.

the varmit reticle in the leo works exactly like the rapid z varmit reticle.
not sure what the triangle stuff is, or why you don't like the zeiss website.

Posted By: nortac
Date Posted: June/17/2008 at 22:58
I do realize the Zeiss and Leupold reticle are very very similar in the way the work.  IMO the Leupold reticle is better but if it can be firgured properly the Zeiss has better potential with the calculation program to be more accurate.  That is if it works.

I just hate to buy a 20X scope that I cannot use and I have to adjust it to a lower power to shoot an object at 500 yards away to be accurate.

The triangle bit is on the Leupold scope based on generic ballisitics for certain calibers.   large and small triangle for specific calibers.

The reason I don't personally care for Zeiss' website is becuse the instruction are not very good.  Read the examples of the 25-06 and the 300mag and exlain the difference to me as far as finding out where to set the power setting at.  There is no explanation for what it is saying.  I am sure I am slow but I wanted to use the 1000 reticle and now I am back to the varmint.

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/18/2008 at 07:48
got a 9x36x56 mp8 i'll make you a heck of deal on-- just kidding -
I have and use both the leo and the zeiss, so your questions seem to be based on some err in the premises
the only real differences is in the number of hash marks , the zeiss has 1/2 interval marks so the 800 I use with the 7 bars or so has 14 marks. the zeiss's reticles get real busy really fast. and the leo has the advantage in remaining uncluttered.
how can the calculation program make it more accurate, perhaps more useful, but that depends on the knowledge and ability of the shooter not the program. and yes it does work.
no target wil fall on exactly the even yardages , 100, 200--500 yds so the need to dial to a lower power to get it hit at that range is a false assumption.
the zeiss 600 is set up for the same type of calibers the lg triangle on the leo is set for, the 800 is set up for the small triangle type calibers, by using the property of sfp scopes to raise the poi by reducing the power setting. the 1000 is designed for callibers like 30/378 like the lazzaronis.
personally and with a lot of experience with both, types of bdc reticles, which includes evenly spaced mil-dot types, I wouldn't get the 1000 much to busy
both the 600 and the 800 with the many in between hash marks make the inbetween distance very easy to hit. remember one has a 5-8 kill zone on both sides of the poi .
the power setting read out on the zeiss simply says that at some power less than max, there will be a setting such that one of the bars will be on some numerical index ending with 2 zeros. after reading that see how easy the calculator is. my complaint agaisnt the program is that its hard to get a print out.
the z rapid reticles are the best thing that has happened to zeiss since plastic was invented.

Posted By: nortac
Date Posted: June/18/2008 at 08:31
Dale, thanks much for the information. I will play with the Zeiss program a bit more. 

Posted By: nortac
Date Posted: June/20/2008 at 19:27
anyone happen to have the measurements of the Leupold varmint reticle and the Zeiss rapid z 800 reticle?  I am trying to decided which reticle is smaller or has smaller hash marks for more accurate reads on smaller game.

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/21/2008 at 09:08
the 800 is not a varmit reticle and the bars are alot thicker than the leo varmit, in fact main cross is way to thick-- if one thinks about it, why a thick cross on a bdc, when one will not be using the cross that much. the leo is hands down the winner in the more accurate reads on smaller game.

Posted By: nortac
Date Posted: June/22/2008 at 23:59
Dale, thanks again for the info and pics.  Based on the Zeiss calculator the z800 is right for what I am doing but the cross hairs do look thick compared to the varmint reticle.  Just curious if you have any issues using the 800 reticle as far as target shooting or precision shooting at any distances.  Would it be better to go with a scope that is more calibrated to the round I will shoot but has larger hash marks or the varmint reticle which I can get calibrated close but it will be off somewhat.  I realize the kill zone I would have but it could cause some possible issues for long range target shooting.

Also,   Once the scope is set on the power ring needed  can you change the power and still have your original zero maintained for low light hunting?  And if the zeiss calculator states 17.19  for the proper power  ring setting is there a detailed view of the power ring?

Thanks again for the great info!

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/23/2008 at 10:27
the 800 and leo are good for target shooting in the sense most people use them. let me redefine target-- 8-10 steel are no problem with 800 out to about 700 yds., but tennis balls, now there is a target (I have a lot left over from my dog) both reticles are iffy at 400 and something like a nf varmit or fine cross duplex is needed. it is a misconception to think that the reticles are calibrated to specific calibers. this is a marketing ploy to get the buyer into thinking about the whole thing. none of them can be "right" on because the target distance is unkown (and always changing)-- if this were not the case a simple duplex would work easily for known distance shooting.
the magnification marks on the conquest are subdived more than most scopes and are one of their best features, 17.19 however could be anywhere between 17 and 17.25. besides the quality control of any of the scopes in this price range are not high enough to assume that 17.19 would be the same in a sampling of them.
it is easiest to sight in at 100 yds but it done on the highest power, and within the short ranges involved in low light , change to a low a still be assured on good shot, your shooting technique will be off more than the sight change.
here is a 5 shot minute of pick up hood group at 100 yds. easily done with the 4.5x14-

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/23/2008 at 10:32
this 4.5x14 is a better scope than the last 4.5 I had, the parallex adj. (side focus) is solid, last one had wobble and the reticle marks have better definition. last one went about 800 rds on a semi auto.

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/23/2008 at 10:43
the profile of your load puts it about 3 moa better than a 50 gr. vax and 1 moa better than a 6.5 at 3000 fps. at 500 yds.

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: June/23/2008 at 10:46
with a 300 yds zero and you would be about 2 and 1/2 inchs high at 100 yds, use the 800 recalibrated to 1000 yds with the last bar. -- although the bullet strips would be difficult  unless you have a spotter.

Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 00:04
Great info Dale!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fish to Live, Live to Hunt

Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 20:29
are you planning to shoot varmints?? since  this is the varmint section and all? 80gr bullet out of a 22-250, why not shoot a .243?

They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 22:38
the 85 gr range of .224 bullets have a slightly higher bc, also the velocity is only slightly behind the 6mm, with 10 to 15 grs. less powder. 85 gr .224 bullets are a recent development as compared to the 87 gr range of 6mm. it is only a matter of time until gun manufac. catch up.

Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 08:43
ive always used the 55gr bullets on coyotes and pdogs, so i guess i dont understand the need to shoot such a heavy a  bullet unless we are talking about shooting stuff at long range.

They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"

Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 09:19
Heavier and longer is always better for long range.  They are affected less by the wind and retain more energy at the longer ranges. 

Just as an example a 168 gr SMK will go subsonic between 900 and 1000 yards out of a .308.  A 175 grain SMK will stay supersonic beyond 1200.  If you are wanting to shoot to the limits of the particular caliber or close to it you will always be better off with the heavier bullet to achieve those distances.

Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: August/01/2008 at 08:03
typical 55 grs .224 have bc usually in the .255 to 2.7 range , the muzzle velocity hides this bad side--- by reducing the time of flight comparted to say a 30-30 with the same bc in a flat nose bullet.

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