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Primer pocket depth and uniforming

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 10:09
Gil P. View Drop Down
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I have been uniforming my primer pockets after every firing with a redding uniformer. It has a stop to ensure proper primer pocket depth, but even so, I was wondering if I should be cutting into the primer pocket after every firing. Yes it does take significantly less time to cut it down to specs, but material is still being removed.

Does brass flow into the primer pocket after each firing? Im using an RCBS hand priming tool to seat primers. My method is to keep pulling the lever until it comes to a stop. Could I be seating them too far into the pocket? I would think no, since the pockets are being uniformed after each firing so it must be the correct depth.
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Alan Robertson View Drop Down
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All that pressure does move brass around... If it's possible to remove too much on the initial pocket uniforming cut (as in using a large rifle cutter in a large pistol pocket), then one might think it''s possible to cut it too thin after a number of reloads/re- cuts.
 Not much more happens after initial forming than pocket cleaning, usually and it might be a sign of excess pressure if you're removing much metal after more firings.
Pockets will loosen a lot quicker if the cut gets too deep or you are loading too hot. As more material is removed from the web during primer pocket uniforming, that could speed the case demise as firing sort of bows the pocket and the rim starts to expand. If you get as little as .0001" rim expansion, you're too hot/too thin.

Primers are perfectly seated when the anvil slightly "crushes" the priming compound. As with anything else, there can always be too much of a good thing.

There are so many ways to thrill yourself while reloading... makes a tingle run up my leg.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 01:11
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Primers are perfectly seated when the anvil slightly "crushes" the priming compound. As with anything else, there can always be too much of a good thing. - Alan Robertson

How would I feel for this? A method ive been trying is to seat the primer until the effort is reduced, seat it in a little more and call it good. This seats the primer just below flush. But I would imagine that it would not be as consistent as seating the primer in until the hand primer stops but I dont want to crush the primers.

The uniformer cuts the pocket down to .129in and, an FGMM primer full seated (until hand primer stops) will seat from .004in to .006in below case head.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 07:24
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Allen, that is one scary looking primer right there Bro!  Mr. Lucky is an understatement. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 11:31
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
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Gil P- the best tool for the job (for me) is the simple little Lee hand- prime tool- depth adjustable and perfect "feel".

There were actually 4 errors which produced the primer shown in pic:
1) New, plated Starline brass was causing difficulties seating on the press (no probs by hand)
2) I'd failed to switch the small- primer seater on the press with the large seater
3) The little cup/primer holder was frozen to the primer punch by a brass shaving
4) I didn't immediately stop priming on press and figure out the problem when the first 4 or 5 cases were difficult- the others didn't show an issue when seated

Hand loading is a pursuit which requires complete mindfulness at all times, regardless of experience, perhaps even in spite of experience...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 13:04
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Unless you're hunting with a rail gun, this is yet another waste of time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 14:00
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Unless you're hunting with a rail gun, this is yet another waste of time.


What is?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 14:14
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He means primer pocket uniforming.  On a typical hunting rifle you will never be able to tell. 
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Gil P- the best tool for the job (for me) is the simple little Lee hand- prime tool- depth adjustable and perfect "feel".


A great tool, indeed. Lee Auto Prime is a MUST HAVE for your reloading bench. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 15:25
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

He means primer pocket uniforming.  On a typical hunting rifle you will never be able to tell. 
 
Yes. Uniforming primer pocket depths for a hunting rifle is a waste of time. I used to do it along with weighing cases and uniforming flash holes too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 19:16
Gil P. View Drop Down
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I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

Alan & Cheaptrick,
 I get pretty good feel out of my RCBS hand primer, but I have never used the Lee either. I may try it if its depth adjustable.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 19:37
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John Haviland wrote an excellent article on this subject ("Brass Prep for Hunters") in the July-August 2012 issue of Successful Hunter magazine (p. 14).
 
He did a complete "prep" job on the brass for one set of reloads for a .30-06 hunting rifle.  He then shot the "prepped" loads against an "unprepped" set of reloads using the same components.  He also ran the same test with "prepped" and "unprepped" reloads in an accurate Cooper .22-250 varmint rifle.
 
His conclusion:  "In the end, the case preparation resulted in nothing.  This will hopefully cure my compulsion to fiddle, and I'll spend less time at the loading bench and more outside shooting in the healing sunlight."
 
Benchrest loads are, of course, a completely different subject.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 21:46
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Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

 
The reason I say this is because hunting rifles, even custom ones, aren't accurate enough consistently to yield conclusive results from those case prep procedures. Best thing I could recommend, if I may, is to start off with top shelf brass like Lapua or Norma which have drilled flash holes and more consistent neck wall thicknesses and don't sweat the smaller stuff. Seating depth will have more of an effect on accuracy than all those other little time consuming procedures put together.
 
Out of curiosity, what rifle and caliber are we discussing here ?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/31/2012 at 21:51
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

Alan & Cheaptrick,
 I get pretty good feel out of my RCBS hand primer, but I have never used the Lee either. I may try it if its depth adjustable.

Your wasting time on a factory hunting rifle, my friend. Next thing is you'll be turning case necks and going out and buying a run out gauge. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 00:33
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

 
The reason I say this is because hunting rifles, even custom ones, aren't accurate enough consistently to yield conclusive results from those case prep procedures. Best thing I could recommend, if I may, is to start off with top shelf brass like Lapua or Norma which have drilled flash holes and more consistent neck wall thicknesses and don't sweat the smaller stuff. Seating depth will have more of an effect on accuracy than all those other little time consuming procedures put together.
 
Out of curiosity, what rifle and caliber are we discussing here ?


Its a Remington 700 AAC-SD, in 308 with a B&C stock on it. Maybe im trying to hard? In all honesty, it is basically a factory hunting rifle (that is my intended use for it), but im still trying to squeeze every little bit of accuracy I can out of it. Like you say it may make no difference.

If you are interested, to prepare brass (lets say once fired) I:
Put it through a Redding body die
Then a Lee collet die
Trim case
Uniform primer pocket
Chamfer/Deburr
Seat primer add powder, seat bullet.
If its new brass I will also uniform the flash hole.

The only sort of "extra" things I do is uniforming the flash hole and primer pocket. Up until recently I was only FL resizing so the two extra dies will probably make the most difference.

I ordered a Bartlein barrel that should be here around November. Its going to be 24in long and have a slightly lighter contour.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 00:47
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

Alan & Cheaptrick,
 I get pretty good feel out of my RCBS hand primer, but I have never used the Lee either. I may try it if its depth adjustable.

Your wasting time on a factory hunting rifle, my friend. Next thing is you'll be turning case necks and going out and buying a run out gauge. 


I seriously doubt that, im content with what I have now. Things like turning case necks and weighing brass seems like it would be a waste of my time no matter what kind of rifle I was shooting. I'm not after THAT kind of accuracy. I have no desire to use benchrest style brass prep techniques, tactical matches seem neat though.

Do you use a digital scale? It would probably speed things up for me, just looking for advice on what to look for. Ive been using a beam scale and lee dippers, but it takes forever.

Im over thinking this brass prep stuff... I just gotta get out and shoot!


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 02:04
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

Alan & Cheaptrick,
 I get pretty good feel out of my RCBS hand primer, but I have never used the Lee either. I may try it if its depth adjustable.

Your wasting time on a factory hunting rifle, my friend. Next thing is you'll be turning case necks and going out and buying a run out gauge. 


I seriously doubt that, im content with what I have now. Things like turning case necks and weighing brass seems like it would be a waste of my time no matter what kind of rifle I was shooting. I'm not after THAT kind of accuracy. I have no desire to use benchrest style brass prep techniques, tactical matches seem neat though.

Do you use a digital scale? It would probably speed things up for me, just looking for advice on what to look for. Ive been using a beam scale and lee dippers, but it takes forever.

Im over thinking this brass prep stuff... I just gotta get out and shoot!


re: Lee hand prime tools- they make a simple one at a time model that provides the best feel and then a couple of auto- prime models. Their latest model is the red 3rd gen. Autoprime and is supposed to have a better feel than gen2- the one with the first square tray, but they are getting into the spendy range.

I have a little Frankford Arsenal digital scale that was on sale at Midway a year or two ago for under $20 and was within .2 gr, but I've quit using it. It was fun at first, but the batteries went out, so it just got upgraded (jk).

I just got a new scale shipped to me for $25- the Horizon HA30.
I bought it on an auction site from a US company (the scale is made in China) and am so impressed with it, I'm just going to start another thread for a review.
 I've already used to quickly sort out six boxes of bullets.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 05:04
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Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:


Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:



Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.

Alan & Cheaptrick,
 I get pretty good feel out of my RCBS hand primer, but I have never used the Lee either. I may try it if its depth adjustable.




Your wasting time on a factory hunting rifle, my friend. Next thing is you'll be turning case necks and going out and buying a run out gauge. 



I seriously doubt that, im content with what I have now. Things like turning case necks and weighing brass seems like it would be a waste of my time no matter what kind of rifle I was shooting. I'm not after THAT kind of accuracy. I have no desire to use benchrest style brass prep techniques, tactical matches seem neat though.

Do you use a digital scale? It would probably speed things up for me, just looking for advice on what to look for. Ive been using a beam scale and lee dippers, but it takes forever.

Im over thinking this brass prep stuff... I just gotta get out and shoot!




You also uave the argument of volume charges vs weighting each charge. Many use progressive presses with measure by volume or just set their powder thrower and then just dump a whole tray of brass at once. I use both of the ways 90% of the time.

I can load 223 ammo on my hornady progressive and get 1/2 moa quality ammo out of it with no brass prep whatsoever for my ar. Once i worked up the load my gun liked i just turned out 1000 of them. They have been very accurate for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 16:28
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
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Gil P.
I mentioned the Lee hand prime earlier and just discovered that Lee no longer makes that little gem.
Sinclair, K&N and others make adjustable hand prime tools for the BR crowd, but get out your checkbook.
An outfit called SmartReloader has recently made an appearance in the marketplace and they have an autoprime- type machine that's cheap. I've not tried any of their tools and think they may be Chinese reloader equipment- no clue except price.

Here's a pic of the Autoprime XR (not anywhere near the tool the old Autoprime was) and the hand prime. There's a third model now, the Ergoprime, which  would be my choice if this one gives up, since the Autoprime is not that sensitive and will build up your grip.

Note that both Lee tools shown require proprietary shell holders, the SR tool mentioned above, does not.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 21:18
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Have you used the machine that checks bullet accuracy..until you spend the $1400.00+ for that all the other stuff is a waste of time.
I believe it is called a Juenke (?), then you have to make sure your chamber is straight, action and bolt are straight with the barrel, etc., etc., etc.
Clint Smith does not do almost any prep work on his .308 Win loads and seem to to be able to make head shots at 700+ yards with regularity because of his skill.
He does not even sort cases by brand.
Sometimes I think we as shooters spend to much time fiddling and not enough time shooting to increase our skill level.
Bell, Taylor, et al did not spend any time fiddling, used factory ammo, stalked the animal until they were close enough and made the shot.
Charles Petty and others have done a variety of studies in the field of primer make, depth, etc. and found not a lot of statistical variation at ranges out to 400 yards.
I will bet $5.00 that for most of us our aiming error is greater than the difference the case prep makes.
In other words, shot, hunt, have fun and don't worry about all the fancy case prep unless you shooting hi-power rifle, F-Class, 1200 yard, etc.
We should be having fun...not punishing ourselves over some small detail.
YMMV
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2012 at 23:29
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Husky 06 with no special case prep. 5 shots @ 100 yrds
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2012 at 04:27
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All this talk dirty will close down the reloading industry.
 
Every time I shoot a poor grouping I go out and buy the latest fad gadget! Like golf, a good grouping is a matter of how thick your wallet is! Can't hit the fairway? Well, you need the latest, hit-em-out-the-rough-a-mile-long driver!!!
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2012 at 09:04
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That some good shooting with that '06! Do your notes on the target paper say that it has a Hart barrel and McMillan stock?

I agree with Gulf's earlier post, shooting in different positions is also extremely important for the hunter. They dont have benches in the wilderness, unless your one of those hunters on television, then they do have benches, and someone to carry your rifle, and you are going to a private area where the animal is stocked... so doesnt that just make it shopping?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2012 at 09:37
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Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:

That some good shooting with that '06! Do your notes on the target paper say that it has a Hart barrel and McMillan stock?

I agree with Gulf's earlier post, shooting in different positions is also extremely important for the hunter. They dont have benches in the wilderness, unless your one of those hunters on television, then they do have benches, and someone to carry your rifle, and you are going to a private area where the animal is stocked... so doesnt that just make it shopping?

 
Shopping? Yes and no. On these stocked farms/ranches you can pretty much guarantee your game, providing it is WELL stocked. On sparsely stocked farms and or large farms it remains a big challenge. Animals remain wild, wily and evasive of man the hunter no matter in the "wilderness" or stocked farms.
 
In most countries the true wilderness is a thing of the past. Hunting in our day and age is somewhat different from when the wilderness was being tamed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2012 at 21:12
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Yes, that Husky has a Hart 24 inch barrel and a McMillan MR profile stock.
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