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Premier objective lens set ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 08:45
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I wanted to see if anyone here can answer a question. Are Premier Heritage/ Tangent Theta scopes using an apochromatic triplet or an ED doublet in their objective lens set.


Edited by Gappa - May/23/2014 at 08:53
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 09:57
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just out of curiosity: why is it important?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 10:27
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waaaiittt for ittttt....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 12:31
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Get Your Popcorn Ready
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 13:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 14:36
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Way over my pea brain! So Ila, you gonna answer the man? Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 16:28
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Curiosity it is my good friend! Knowledge is power. I made the inquiry to them and they said that it was proprietary to their design and confidential information so that made me want to know even more.  My guess is it's an ED doublet but it is very interesting to see how these higher end optics are achieving their image.  This is how astronomical telescopes are designated, Achromatic doublets, Apochromatic triplets, Orthoscopic Apochromats, Flourite Apo doublets etc and I am curious to see how similar they are in their objective lens set design.


Edited by Gappa - May/23/2014 at 16:33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 16:49
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So..your the type who doesn't just want to know what time it is, but how the watch runs, right?  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 17:09
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Hey, I can relate, Mark!Big Grin

However, the bottom line is, if it has superb optics, I personally don't care what route the designer/manufacturer took to get there. It's the result that counts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 17:44
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I remember back in '86 Redfield advertised their Illuminator line as having an advanced triplet objective lense design. I still have that scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 20:23
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Why build the Large Hadron Collider? The more you know about your gear the better. You never know when information might become valuable.  Optics are such an interesting topic. no?
A triplet or even quadruplet is the hardest to design and create and therefore costs more.
I believe S&B uses a triplet objective design, not positive though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2014 at 22:45
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Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:


I believe S&B uses a triplet objective design, not positive though.


Yes, that's correct. They had a cutaway view of the Zenith 2.5-10X56 in their catalog a few years ago.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 00:59
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Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

Curiosity it is my good friend! Knowledge is power. I made the inquiry to them and they said that it was proprietary to their design and confidential information so that made me want to know even more.  My guess is it's an ED doublet but it is very interesting to see how these higher end optics are achieving their image.  This is how astronomical telescopes are designated, Achromatic doublets, Apochromatic triplets, Orthoscopic Apochromats, Flourite Apo doublets etc and I am curious to see how similar they are in their objective lens set design.

Most riflescope manufacturers will not tell you the specifics of their design and I usually respect their wishes and do not discuss them either.

In terms of optical design riflescopes are not particularly unusual devices, so you can be fairly certain that they use some custom tweak on a fairly well known optical formula.  They all do.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 12:07
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That's kinda bass ackwards if you asked me. In the astronomical world the manufacturers are proud of their designs and how all are classified. Possibly because the tolerances and such are soo much tighter when the distances are light years instead of meters. Seems to me sharing the information in their specs would help a discerning buyer understand the product and it's capabilities. Or the competition is so fierce they don't want anyone to try and copy the design.  But again that makes no sense because if I were an optical engineer and wanted to copy, say a Hensoldt I would just buy one tear it down and analyze it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 13:32
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That is very much incorrect.
 
Riflescopes are mechanically complicated and have three different optical systems that are matched to each other. It is possible to reverse engineer one, but not simple.
 
Looking at something far away is more difficult one one hand, but enormously more simple on the other hand: amateur astronomy telescopes have somewhat expensive components, but very simple systems. Riflescopes are exactly the other way around.
 
ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 19:13
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Look at Takahashi telescopes, I own several, a TOA130NFB and an FSQ106ED there is nothing simple about the designs. They have an objective lens set a field flattner and an ocular or CCD imager in place of an ocular. Given on a rifle scope the only other assembly is the erector which is exclusive to targeting optics. The erector lenses (to the best of my knowledge) are not refractive lenses they contain the reticle on a flat lens. So in optical terms they are identical in mechanical terms they are not.  And Ilya you are quite right they are extremely expensive a TAK 200mm Flourite ED triplet on an EM3500 mount is running about $170,000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 20:23
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This I am curious about: how do you build an erector system without refractive lenses?
 
ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 21:35
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The erector tube contains the reticle which is a flat lens and then the turning system or picture reversal assembly which flips the image. So I will correct my statement there. But aside from those flipping lenses riflescopes are identical to an astro scope since viewing the sky don't matter which end is up or down. But a couple of lenses to flip an image doesn't add that extreme of an engineering challenge. You might could say an astro scope's field flattner assembly is an equal or more complicated design than an image flipper.


Edited by Gappa - May/24/2014 at 21:46
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2014 at 22:07
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I have seen the inside of a few scopes here and there.

Those "flipping lenses" are pretty important, by the way.

The mechanicals of a riflescope are very different because of the stresses it is subjected to.  Then there is that whole problem with moving of the erector assembly.

You also seem to have completely skipped the whole business of astro scopes being very narrow FOV, unlike most riflescopes.

Either way, the manufacturers do not tell you exactly what optical systems they use, and I won't either.

We have established that you do no appreciate the complexities of making a riflescope.  I do not think either one of us is going to lose any sleep over that.

I think we have also established with reasonable certainty that optics is not your field, so if you really want to understand how they work, you should take a few classes. 

I am not sure what else we will get out of this thread.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2014 at 09:55
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My Tak FSQ106ED is an ultra widefield astrograph which I also use for terrestrial CCD photography. My TOA 130 is what you call a narrow FOV instrument. So your statement is half-correct.
Yes a riflescope does need to withstand extreme g forces but still glass to metal interfaces are common.  Lenses are still held in with a threaded lock ring just like a camera.  And although the designs vary in how the erector tubes are adjusted for targeting, it's still composed of screws and springs whether it's a 5k S&B or a $50 BSA.
I am a mechanical engineer.  I have a decent grasp on optics, physics, mechanical design, electronic design, chemistry etc. Am I an optical engineer no. Are you? Fair question.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2014 at 10:04
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Actually, ILya is an optical physicist who does engineering for fun...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2014 at 10:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2014 at 12:03
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So Ilya designs these things for a living? If that is in fact trueKneel Suckers
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2014 at 12:09
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I guess I would be the opposite to that coin. A mechanical engineer that does chemistry for fun.
But LR shooting and amateur astronomy / imaging are a close second.

This is quite interesting, and I am always open to listen when others with more knowledge decide to speak.
Care to share anything about the chemical compositions of ED glass VS CaFl crystal. And how the synthetic fluorite crystals are grown? I have always wondered how they did that. I don't believe that is proprietary in any way.


Edited by Gappa - May/25/2014 at 12:17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2014 at 12:19
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I'm just a dumb ol' Marine, stumbling through life, trying not to break stuff before its time.

Carry on.
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