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Point of Impact Issue

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/27/2010 at 17:55
ram187 View Drop Down
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 I have a new Swaro AV 4-12x50 BR that will not hold zero. Was on a 7mm Browning w/boss and has been sent back to Swaro twice, took it out of the box last week and put it on a never fired Savage 10. I too it out to zero it in, windage perfect just a little high after a couple trips, brought her down a few clicks and went back out. Fired 2 rounds and the elevation came down to where it should be but the windage on both shots was 1.25" right. This has been the scenario with this scope on either gun. What in the heck is going on? Swaro says I torqued the rings to much.

Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/27/2010 at 18:05
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Did you torque the rings too much?

Too much torque can cause problems like you describe.

Do you have a collimator or bore sighter (non-magnetic kind)?

Hard to help without more info.

Do you torque with a torque wrench or "other"?  Were there ring marks or dents in the tube when you took it off and/or remounted?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/27/2010 at 19:26
ram187 View Drop Down
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 The scope has been on and off 3 times and nothing even close to a ring mark. I am not sure you can apply to much torque with the little allen wrench Warne supplies with the rings. I think something is shifting internally with the single spring, they replaced it with a quad spring set up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/27/2010 at 20:51
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You really need to use a torque screwdriver/wrench for mounting a scope. It is far too easy to over torque the ring screws, even with an allen wrench. Most rings will only need 15 inch/pounds of force for the screws. If you must use an allen wrench, then you need to turn it using the short end of the wrench.

This is a link to an inexpensive, but accurate torque wrench.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 00:11
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Is the scope mounted with the reticule axis vertical and horizontal to the bore, ie not canted in any direction?
What distance are you shooting at?
Is the rifle not canted when you shoot?
 
When you mounted the scope and zeroed it for the first time, is the dials approx centered on the total number of clicks available?
 
Just a few pointers to check.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 00:13
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And further, you say it will not hold zero?
 
Do you mean that from shot to shot the zero shifts?
 
Or do you mean that as per your above discussion that when you dial elevation then windage will also change?
 
Those are two different problems.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 12:26
ram187 View Drop Down
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  8shots,   The zero does not shift shot to shot but it seems change every time go out and shoot as I only shoot 1 or 2 shots and go home. And yes it does move as described above, I adjusted 4 clicks in elevation, went out and shot and the impact came down where it should have but it was 1.25" right on both shots. This scope is for my big game rifle and I have never taken it in the field because I do not trust it, the Savage is my varmint rifle (22-250) and it is doing the same thing. Different gun,bases,rings and caliber same problem.

Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 15:13
8shots View Drop Down
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Tricky problem to solve.
 
One point I would like to raise is that shooting only two shots (or three) does present a problem in itself. Thoughts that come to mind are cold bore shots, fouling shots, shooter error due to not having settled down etc.
 
I myself have experienced said situations, and after maybe five rounds start getting into the groove, so to speak.
 
A question, is your rifle, ammo etc up to 1MOA ? It could be argued that the scope did not move 1.25 inches right, but your group is 2 inches. If you fired ten rounds, were would all ten bullets group? Maybe dead nuts over the bull?
 
You have to go fire that puppy up and send more bullets downrange and see what she really can do!!


Edited by 8shots - December/28/2010 at 15:14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 18:16
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Have to agree with 8shots, when i first shifted from rimfires to centerfires, i though my first centerfire rig, a factory tactical, just wouldn't hold zero. I didn't know what was wrong and my first thought was it was the scope not holding zero, and i'm the type who is very cautious and a bit anal when setting up scopes for my souped up .22lr rigs as everything has to be perfect from alignment, torque of allen screws, and even feel. 
If my scope was just an entry level scope i probably would have blamed it for good and replace it right away, but i had a quality scope, mount, gun, and everything even premium ammo so i was unsure and frustrated. It turned out after a fair bit of scrutiny and after consulting with fellow shooters i had a couple of problems from not applying the right torque to my bases as it turned out that the recoil from the centerfire was jarring the screws a bit loose each time i fire, to various shooting techniques like not letting the barrel cool enough between shots, and even expecting too much at once from my centerfire coming from a rimfire.
My 1.25 to 1.5 inch groups with locally available good factory ammo turned out to be the norm for it. Since i could get my .22lr premium rimfire to shoot ragged one whole groups at 50 meters and sub 1 inch groups and even .5 inch groups on a good windless day at 100 meters, i was expecting the centerfire to at least match that group at 100 so i was doubtful again whether my scope was not holding zero or something was loose again or like my gun or barrel was a factory defect. Only after correcting all my mistakes and experimenting with reloading was i able to get my rig to shoot under an inch and i now have the peace of mind that my scope and gun is OK. Smile
If your scope wasn't a swaro, I would also tend to blame your scope not holding POI, but since it's a swaro and as you mentioned they even reinforced the quad spring set up i would think it's something else. I do hope you pinpoint the problem, whether it be the scope or something else and post it back here. (",)


Edited by FunShot - December/28/2010 at 18:18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 19:07
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Originally posted by ram187 ram187 wrote:

 
  8shots,   The zero does not shift shot to shot but it seems change every time go out and shoot as I only shoot 1 or 2 shots and go home. And yes it does move as described above, I adjusted 4 clicks in elevation, went out and shot and the impact came down where it should have but it was 1.25" right on both shots. This scope is for my big game rifle and I have never taken it in the field because I do not trust it, the Savage is my varmint rifle (22-250) and it is doing the same thing. Different gun,bases,rings and caliber same problem.

Thanks

Shooting 1 or 2 shots does not give you enough information to troubleshoot a problem or, for that matter, to determine if there is a problem at all.  You should really shoot a 3 shot group.  Then adjust the knobs.  Then shoot another 3 shot group, and so on, it more adjustment is needed.

On overtightening the rings: it is very easy to overtighten the rings even with the small L-shaped  wrench that came with the rings.  If you are overtightening (and I suspect you are), the position of the rings on the tube also makes the difference.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 19:08
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One other question, where are you located?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 22:06
ram187 View Drop Down
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 I live at 7000' in the Colorado mountains, all shooting is 7000+   This situation needs to apply to hunting only, cold barrel etc...   You shoot at a coyote and the first shot is the only shot that matters, follow ups are non existent. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/28/2010 at 23:40
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Originally posted by ram187 ram187 wrote:

 
 Savage is my varmint rifle (22-250) and it is doing the same thing. Different gun,bases,rings and caliber same problem.

Thanks


Since you say you have the same problem with two different rifles, I would lean towards a mounting issue. There is a lot more to mounting a scope than just putting the rings on and tightening the scope down. Are the rings aligned correctly? And YES it is very possible to over tighten the rings with just an allen wrench and still not leave a ring mark on the scope. We are talking about inch lbs, not ft lbs. The topic of mounting scopes has been covered on this form a number of times. So I would do a search for scope mounting here on OT.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2010 at 01:37
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Originally posted by ram187 ram187 wrote:

 I live at 7000' in the Colorado mountains, all shooting is 7000+   This situation needs to apply to hunting only, cold barrel etc...   You shoot at a coyote and the first shot is the only shot that matters, follow ups are non existent. 
 
I understand your need for knowing that your cold bore shot is your zero shot. I also hunt and yes, the first shot is the only one that matters.
 
This does not however mean that you need not understand your rig beyond two shots. Some rifles have a cold bore shot or fouling shot that shoots way out of the grouping, and the owner needs to know that. I for one like to take two shots before I leave for the field, either onto a target or just into the ground, because I know my rifle performs better with a slightly fouled barrel.
 
We can only make suggestions and untill you eliminate each one, we cannot progress to the next possible solution.
 
I have assumed that you have mounted the scope correctly, that is the rings aligned, no torque on the scope body, mount screws correctly tightened etc.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2010 at 01:47
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Let me add this: Before I purchased an accurate target rifle, I had some similiar "problems "as you are experiencing. With my hunting rifle I expected to do clover groupings. After one shot I would be two inches right, and 1 low, I would adjust two inches left, then I would end 1 inch left and 1 high.
And so I would chase the bull, adjusting shot for shot, thinking something is fubar. Untill I bought my accurate rig and found that everything came together. The impact changed exactly as per the scope dialing.
 
I went back to my hunting rig and discovered that with a five shot group that the rifle and bullet combo was only capable of a 2 inch group. So the jumping around was the grouping, not the scope.
 
 


Edited by 8shots - December/29/2010 at 14:32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2010 at 10:01
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This will be a repeat of what other said, but:
  1. Shoot a 5, or better yet 10 shot group to see what your gun is really capable of.  You will get a much better picture of what is going on.
  2. Get a torque screwdriver.  Have seen countless "Professionals" at big box stores mount a scope and crank on the screws with the 2" allen wrench.  Our host sells one that will work great.  Having used a torque driver, I was surprised at how much I was over tightening my own stuff.  http://swfa.com/Weaver-Optics-Accessory-P46129.aspx
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2011 at 20:32
ram187 View Drop Down
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 Thanks for the input, I just took the scope off the rifle and will be taking to the gunsmith at Bass Pro in the AM.  He will put it on his bench gun and shoot some groups, we will see what the results are.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2011 at 21:15
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If your bass pro is anything like mine you better be shopping for a real gunsmith instead.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2011 at 21:23
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