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out of elevation at 50 yards

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 19:47
rightwingnut View Drop Down
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Mounted a viper 2-7x32 in Talley lows on a Marlin 308mx. I am 2 inches low at 50 yards with only 4 clicks remaining of elevation. Scope is consistent and has tracked well up the paper. I have always mounted a scope myself and been on paper 1st shot and zeroed with less than 10 shots at 100 yards. I am lost here.... good news is the scope feels solid and glass looks great. Help please
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 19:55
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Pictures of the mounts would help.

These are usually issues associated with the  mounting rather than the optic.


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - September/17/2010 at 19:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 20:22
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Marlin

Talley Lightweight Aluminum 1 Scopemount
Stock # - 930336
  • Marlin Model 336
  • Marlin Model 1895
  • Matte
  • Low
  • 1"
I apologize but I dont know how to upload pics here.
Scope sits low enough that I cant get the scope cap/cover to fit completey over it because of rear site thats folded over. Thought there might be a front a rear ring maybe that I some how missed when mounting but that doesnt appear to be the case.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 21:35
WestOfPecos View Drop Down
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hmmm. The Viper 2-7x32 has 110 moa, so it really cannot be a scope issue. Just in case - how many moas do you have total in elevation? Since you have already done your other rifles, you would not have put the rings in the wrong order in this one.

What kind of a mount is it under the rings? Is it the XS rail?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 21:56
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These are Talley one piece that mount right to gun without a seperate base. First time using these Talley LW aluminums.  I just ran from top down and had 433 clicks and crosshairs moved up the wall about 6 inches at 20ft. That is 108 moa at 100 yards. Rings are not marked differently to signify front/rear.  Loosing my mind here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:07
WestOfPecos View Drop Down
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I am grasping at straws now:-) Did you try reversing each ring 180 degrees, in their present position? How is the fit between rings and scope?

I don't have Talleys, but their one-piece rings (the ones you have) have very good reputation.

[edit] I am not sure I totally understand what you are saying about the front/ back rings. Did you try swapping the front and back rings?


Edited by WestOfPecos - September/17/2010 at 22:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:12
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I wasnt sure what to try. The picture of the rings shows a rounded bottom but these are flat. Someone suggested shims in the front but I feel like I would be putting a bandaid on the problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:20
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Nice gun and scope choice combo there. I have to say that considering the fact that the rifle receiver is a flat top, and the scope has 108 moa adjustment. This is perplexing. The lone thing I can come up with would be that the mounts are not of the same height, and they should be. You should shoot the gun at 100 yards and see where she hits. Hopefully she hits high, and you can adjust accordingly, and not worry about the 50 yard zero.
If this is still a problem out at 100 yards, then take the mount down, and compare the scope rings for identical height. Unless they were built with moa in them (which I doubt) they should be the same. If they are not then you have the culprit. Incidently this would not be the first time rings of different heights were sold as a matching pair. It has happened to me. I caught it before mounting, but if I hadn't I would have been scratching my watch and winding my ass too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:28
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Cyborg....I was thinking outloud to my wife and said hopefully they are two different sizes/heights rings. I must admitt that my first shot at 25 yards could have been 3 or 4 feet low. I thought I missed real high so next shot was aimed towards the bottom of the target and the round hit 3 feet infront in the dirt. I will take the off and try to do some measurements.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:29
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Originally posted by rightwingnut rightwingnut wrote:

I wasnt sure what to try. The picture of the rings shows a rounded bottom but these are flat. Someone suggested shims in the front but I feel like I would be putting a bandaid on the problem.
Shims in the front would cause the problem to get worse not better. The rear would need to be raised to sufficiently increase the amount of elevation. We had one guy reversed a 20 moa rail a while back asking many questions in here. He had run out of elevation and hitting low. He never admitted to it, but (in another thread topic) that he thought the higher end should go out front told the tale.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:37
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Originally posted by rightwingnut rightwingnut wrote:

Cyborg....I was thinking outloud to my wife and said hopefully they are two different sizes/heights rings. I must admitt that my first shot at 25 yards could have been 3 or 4 feet low. I thought I missed real high so next shot was aimed towards the bottom of the target and the round hit 3 feet infront in the dirt. I will take the off and try to do some measurements.
Shocked That is WAY OFF. I'd think you'd have to reverse a moa rail, and top out the elevation and still not sure you could get it to shoot that low at that distance. Let us know what you find out when you take it apart.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:55
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The rings are both identical in size. Each marked LS44 on bottom.... what ever that means. I ran scope back to center of elevation and I might switch bases/rings front to rear and give it another try. This could get expensive at $1.25 a round. If I shimmed the rear and Im hitting low, doesnt shimming the rear point the scope even lower?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 22:57
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I have 9 pairs of Talley rings on 6 different rifles & have never had a problem!Have you tried calling Talley,they have tremendous customer care?Also have you checked to see if your rifle mount is truly squared?
 
What was the amount of toque you applied to the ring screws,I hope it wasn't more than 18-20ft lbs. as that is what Talley reccommends,also 25 ft lbs on the base screws!
 
Good luck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 23:02
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To raise the muzzle, you have to raise the rear of the tube. Raising the muzzle raises the poi of the round. Think of it like this. If you are looking at something and want to shoot over it do you not raise the muzzle above the line of sight? Is this also the same as raising the distance between yourself and the rear of the receiver? In both cases the answer to the question is yes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 23:10
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                            Scope
                       ____________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ line of sight_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
        _______________________________________ _ _ _ _bullet trajectory _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Receiver                                                               Muzzle
 
Raising the back of the scope here shows that it causes the line of sight to intersect the bullet trajectory. This is raising the elevation of the bullets trajectory to or above the line of sight.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 23:11
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Very good explination William!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 23:37
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Thanks bro.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 23:42
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I just ran a square over the receiver and barrel. The top of the end of the barrel is a good 3/4 of inch lower than the receiver. I would think this could be the problem. Its a very noticeable slope once you lay a square/flat edge along top of reveiver.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 23:59
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That is probably due to the wall thickness of the receiver and barrel area. Compounded by the barrels contour/taper.  The only thing would be to check the bore alignment with the receiver, which will be difficult without the right tools. If you have a laser bore sight, you could essentially set the scope at dead zero and check to see what the difference is on paper. This may help us in getting an answer for the problem. Right now we're all kinda grasping at straws.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2010 at 00:04
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RWN - It's quite normal for the end of the barrel to be lower than the receiver top. You are not mounting your rings on the barrel, just the receiver. Do you have a set of calipers? Can you measure the rings and find out if they are exactly identical? You don't need to to dismount the rings for that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2010 at 06:51
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  Might be time to try and eliminate a possible component problem.  Ever had this rifle set up before?  If so,put the Viper in the mounts you use to use or put a tried and true scope in the Talley's and see what you got.  Just went the same route with a friend here at OT and found out his new scope has a problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2010 at 10:54
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Sorry, not a picture of "the" mounts, but a picture of "your" mounts, on your rifle.
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