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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 22:51
isshogai View Drop Down
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 what  do you guys suggest for putting on AR-10/M-14 for out to 1000yd? both have been gone through so I know there up to it. I'm considering the following Meopta,IOR Valdata,Pride-Fowler,Leupold and other. tubes are going to be 30mm and Mil-Dot reticle

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:09
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I have a 10x Super Sniper on my AR-10 and I have tried several optics on my M1a but have been ultimately unhappy due to the cheekweld issue. On the M1a the most satisfactory was an Aimpoint but that really wont work for long distance. The general consensus is that IOR has some nice glass but service issues are a possible problem. Nightforce rates high. Schmidt Bender rates highter and U.S. Optics is right up there with S&B.  I prefer something in the 4-16 up to the 5.5-22 range for long distance. If its a fixed it should be a 10x and if it is a daylight target only gun a higher fixed power or higher power scope is fun but less than practical for most use. If it will see hunting or combat the lower powers are more useful than the high powers.  My personal high dollar scopes are all Leupold Mark 4 scopes and we will hear shortly that Leupold doesnt have as good of glass as the Euro scopes but the thing they have going for them is the mechanical adjustments work every time and the company offers better than average service. I would be perfectly happy with a Leupold Mark 4  in a 4.5-14x50  with a duplex and Kenton Ind. knobs since I use a laser rangefinder and that setup wont cost nearly as much as the competition.
LEU54660 Leupold%204.5-14x50%20Mark%204%20LR/T%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $974.95
More%20Info...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:18
supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:19
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IOR service issues are a thing of the past.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:20
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

I have a 10x Super Sniper on my AR-10 and I have tried several optics on my M1a but have been ultimately unhappy due to the cheekweld issue. On the M1a the most satisfactory was an Aimpoint but that really wont work for long distance. The general consensus is that IOR has some nice glass but service issues are a possible problem. Nightforce rates high. Schmidt Bender rates highter and U.S. Optics is right up there with S&B.  I prefer something in the 4-16 up to the 5.5-22 range for long distance. If its a fixed it should be a 10x and if it is a daylight target only gun a higher fixed power or higher power scope is fun but less than practical for most use. If it will see hunting or combat the lower powers are more useful than the high powers.  My personal high dollar scopes are all Leupold Mark 4 scopes and we will hear shortly that Leupold doesnt have as good of glass as the Euro scopes but the thing they have going for them is the mechanical adjustments work every time and the company offers better than average service. I would be perfectly happy with a Leupold Mark 4  in a 4.5-14x50  with a duplex and Kenton Ind. knobs since I use a laser rangefinder and that setup wont cost nearly as much as the competition.

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%">
<T>
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<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left rowSpan=2>[COLOR=#0066cc size=3">LEU54660 [/COLOR"></TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=left rowSpan=2>[COLOR=#0066cc size=3">Leupold%204.5-14x50%20Mark%204%20LR/T%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20[/COLOR"></TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width="100%" rowSpan=2>Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope

  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=left>SWFA:</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=right><STRONG =swfa-price>$974.95</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=bottom align=middle colSpan=2>More%20Info... </TD></TR></T></TABLE>



You have convinced me. I am going to have to give LLLLL Leupold    another look. I have shied away for years, but I guess everything/one deserves a second chance. I really respect your opinions. I'm going to go to the local purveyor and "look through" a few.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:26
supertool73 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:


You have convinced me. I am going to have to give LLLLL Leupold    another look. I have shied away for years, but I guess everything/one deserves a second chance. I really respect your opinions. I'm going to go to the local purveyor and "look through" a few.


Ahh, don't fall into the trap.  There are so many better options out there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:32
isshogai View Drop Down
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 nothing on the Pride -Fowler? Ron Smith is doing work on M-14 and his website is pushing the P-R as a possible option to the Leupold
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:35
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I have never heard of them before.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:36
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:


Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

You have convinced me. I am going to have to give LLLLL Leupold    another look. I have shied away for years, but I guess everything/one deserves a second chance. I really respect your opinions. I'm going to go to the local purveyor and "look through" a few.
Ahh, don't fall into the trap.  There are so many better options out there.

I'm just going to give them a look after years of NOT. Leupold still has a long way to go to convince me to spend any money on them. But, worth a look. My best friend and I have almost come to blows over his love of Leupold. Maybe they are better than I remember.

You know, you really need to have a different persuasion of person in that avatar for ed's candidate... even for ed, that is creepy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2008 at 23:59
isshogai View Drop Down
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 Is SWFA still taking trade-ins?  I've got a Leupold 4.5-14 Tactical 1" tubes and thinking to use that  to upgrade
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 00:02
supertool73 View Drop Down
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yes
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 08:47
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the rapid Z reticles from zeiss are pride-fowler, never used the brand pride-fowler, but the rapid Z  will get to 1000 yds with the 800 and a 300 yd zero without a 20 moa base in conquests, also using 10 mils in a MP8 ior will give enough hold over with the 20 moa elevation without a 20 moa rail. 175 smk around 2500 fps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 09:21
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Budget your spending to the accuracy potential of the rifle.
I wouldn't spend over $500.00 on a scope to be used on an AR10 at 1000 yards. 
 
ETA;
On the M1A something to consider is that since the scope is going to be a mile in the air,. you could go with an 80mm objective and still clear the front hand guard.
On the M1A choose your scope based on the mount you've installed, ie;
Springfield mount = $50.00 scope.
Sadlak mount = $2000.00 scope.
And there's a range of mounts in between those two extremes.
 
 


Edited by Mike McDonald - July/26/2008 at 09:26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 10:31
isshogai View Drop Down
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Mr. Clifford  I was thinking something along the lines of the PF being somebody else's idea but new packaging etc. I think the Dranunov PSO-1 and Shepherd were the same case although not exact but similarities are there one of the reasons I was considering IOR was a couple of the guys at rangeand Boston mentions it in his book is the reticle system harder to learn than the Mil-Dot?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 10:38
isshogai View Drop Down
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Mr. McDonald  I'm not sure I understand your reply about $500 max on scope for the AR-10  is this a bad choice for that distance? Armalite rep told me I should be able to get 800yds. out the 16" carbine and 1000 yds.out of the 20" should my abilities and ammo coincide with the rifle and dope.
   The mount I'd use for the M-14 is one of Smith Enterprises  5" model the benefit with going with that firearm is see through mounts so not removing  scope for back-up sights
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 12:21
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Originally posted by isshogai isshogai wrote:

   The mount I'd use for the M-14 is one of Smith Enterprises  5" model the benefit with going with that firearm is see through mounts so not removing  scope for back-up sights


That kind of mount and set up is all wrong for a 1000 yard rifle.  You will never be able to get consistency with a scope that is mounted so high that you can see under it to use the irons.  You have to be able to get a consistent cheek weld to be able to make consistent hits at long range.  You can't have your head just floating about, it needs to be locked down to the stock the exact same every time you shoot.  Shooting at those long ranges and making good hits all the time is very difficult because of the environmental factors alone.  If your weapon is not set up to allow you to be completely consistent every time you lay down on it you will never be successful at those longer ranges.  So I would get a mount that gets your scope as low as possible and then add a Karsten cheek piece or something similar to allow you to get a consistent cheek weld.

The whole backup sight thing is funny to me on range queen guns, even hunting guns for that matter.  Meaning if they are set up to where you can you both at the same time.  Even military snipers don't run irons on their sniper rifles.  They are set up so they can hurry and take the scope off and mount the irons if needed, but having the rifle set up so you can you use either at any given time will in affect make both of the sight systems inferior to what they would be if they were alone. Loco

If you really think you need backups, carry a light weight AR15 with a red dot or iron sights on it. Or if it is a hunting rig, maybe carry a magnum pistol of some sort.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 12:54
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The AR10 rifle can reach 1000 yards, sure, but consistancy is another thing entirely.
The factory AR10 rifles have a real nasty habit of throwing flyers on a regular basis.
The DPMS 308 LR rifle is more accurate, but could stand a little tuning.
The AR platform is an easy rifle to shoot in an averge manner though.  The M1A at distance, and espessially with a mounted optic on the standard stock, is very much an advanced operators rifle.  If you start long range with the M1A you'll become disillussioned quickly and give up he game.
As mentioned above, the cheekweld issue with a scoped M1A is a chin weld.
Look at the pic below and see how far up the scope is in relation to the stick.  Chris Farris and I spent a few hours in the shop experimenting with mounts and rings to get thescope this low.  Also noticehow the heel of the stock is far below the base of the action.  With a scope mounted to this action in this stock, even at the bench you'll have the rifle butt under your arm, and your chin ON TOP of the stock.
 
With this stock, the scope is in line with the eye ( notice the stock heel is now in line with the base of the action) and even with the cheekpiece lowered, the shooter can obtain a  proper cheekweld.  Accuracy difference between the two stocks is astronomical.
 
 
Get a bolt gun to learn with, then progress to the gas guns in a few years when you've mastered the basic fundamentals of precision shooting.
Also, forget those "range compensating" reticles if your goal is to become competent in the long range game.  The only job those reticles have is to sell scopes to the unsuspecting.
 


Edited by Mike McDonald - July/26/2008 at 13:05
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2008 at 20:18
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pride-fowler developed the reticle then sold/franchised it to zeiss. most of the long range competition shooting today is called par time. in other words there is a very generous time allotment in shooting the course of fire. if time pressure were part of the course of fire, most of the guns you would see as being popular would disappear, far to slow. sort of the a hold over from the one hand hold NRA bullseye era. if the course of fire is who finishes first hold over reticles come into their own, even if its using a milling system to do it. compared to the possibilites the 308 isn't a good rd. but then a 22lr isn't good for 200 yd, but their both a lot fun.

both the ar and the m1a have very long lock times, and the shooter must learn to "hold"  the shot somewhat like the black powder shooters, or "shoot thru the target" as some of the terms go.

while most guns will shoot to 1000 yds, how well they do it is another story altogether. ar10T, z6 tds, CCA monopod cheek riser. this is a very "fast" set up for unknown distances against the clock

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2008 at 11:52
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Mike, nice rug, looks hand-knotted.  And Dale, the doily, it really brings the Swaro and Magpul together!

Any conversation about 1,000-yard shots is somewhat rediculous if not preceded by a very lengthy conversation about the shooter's training, physical condition, education, experience, ammo, rifle, range, eye sight, shooting conditions, time-frame, budget, expectations, needs, wants, and reality-check.

After that conversation, I'd say be wary of what the Armalite "Salesman" tells you CAN be done with their rifle.  I'd ask why you need a semi-auto.  And would let you know I have heard a few things about pride Fowler scopes but never used one.  The big draw to their rifle scopes seems to be the reticule (which I don't care for) and not the glass or the scope build quality.  Shooting at a target 1,000 yards away is hard enough without jacking with a reticule for elevation and windage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2008 at 17:19
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 thanks, its a CCA stock not magpul, my wife has those (doilys or what ever they are called) things everywhere,
one question for sure, do you have a 1000 yd place to shoot, don't mean a formal range , on a regular basis, so that you would be getting feed back from your shooting efforts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2008 at 21:54
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RC, good eye on the blanket.  It is hand knotted.  Man's gotta relax some how.
 
As far as 1000 yard shooting, no need to discuss real life requirements on the internet.  Everyone wants to shoot 1000 yards, everyone wants it to be easy, and everyone just knows it can be done with a point and click reticle.
 
 
Then reality steps in and spoils everything.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2008 at 22:17
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jeez its not rocket science
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/29/2008 at 01:36
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:


You have convinced me. I am going to have to give LLLLL Leupold    another look. I have shied away for years, but I guess everything/one deserves a second chance. I really respect your opinions. I'm going to go to the local purveyor and "look through" a few.


Ahh, don't fall into the trap.  There are so many better options out there.
 
Why yes there are you can spend three times the price and get a S&B or  two times the price and get a U.S. Optics or one and two thirds the price and get a Nightforce. And the IOR scopes are not by any means the price bargain they were a couple of years ago however there are a few that are almost within range.  But for under a thousand dollars like it or not this is a scope that should be considered:
LEU54660 Leupold%204.5-14x50%20Mark%204%20LR/T%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • 100 moa internal adjustment Excellent 
SWFA: $974.95
More%20Info...


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - July/29/2008 at 01:38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2008 at 10:45
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Read alot of good stuff on the Pride-Fowler but no personal experience with them. The USMC has gone to all Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce is killer, Nikon 4.5-16 with the BDC makes it almost too easy to hit long range with just a little practice and the optics and reliability is 2nd to none. Lifetime warranty doesn't hurt either. Wish I would've had the Nikon in the Army instead of the Loopy.
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