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Optics choices for a CAR15.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2005 at 13:37
carolinaflats View Drop Down
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Hi all,

I'm starting to put together a CAR 15 using mostly RRA parts and hoping to end up with something like RRA's Government model.  If you buy the Government model from RRA it comes with an Eotech mounted on the flat top with a GG&G rear flip up site and the two co-witness with a standard front site thas barrel mounted. This system seems pretty cool and I'm considering doing the same. However, I recently checked out a Trijicon Reflex II sight and liked it a lot. I also checked out an Aimpoint that I liked as well. I have not had the opportunity to look at an eotech in person and the guy at the gunstore said he didn't care for them. I was hoping a few of you who have had the chance to use these different sights could give me your opinions on their advantages and disadvantages. Also, if any of you have a different setup you prefer, please share.

Well, just as I was writing this the fella from the gunshop called to say my stripped RRA lower had come in! 

Thanks for your responses, I'm off to pick up my new part!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2005 at 21:12
dilligaf View Drop Down
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I use an Aimpoint M2 on a 5.56 (14.5")  flat top with an ARMS 22M68 QD mount & full spacer, ARMS 40 rear BUIS, standard front sight base with a .40 taller sight post (zeroed @ 100 yds).

And I have an EoTech 550 on a .50 BWF (16") flat top with a Larue QD mount, Troy front & rear BUIS (zeroed @ 75 yds).

 

Here are my personal observations of both systems.

 

EoTech 550 rev F

 

I've only had the EoTech for about 3 months now. It has with stood the recoil of 350 rds of .50 BWF,  being bumped around in a soft case in the trunk. I went with the "AA" model, it is alot easier to find "AA" in the middle of BFE than any other battery. I still havent used up the 1st set of "AA" batteries. Its ran like a champ and never given me any problems.

Pros: Easy to get replacement batteries, widest FOV if NV is mounted to the rifle in tandem with sight, Durable, fast on target, holds its zero, & the controls are easy to use.

Cons: large glass (possible down range reflection hazard). Ive never hear of a first hand expierence of it happening. I've heard from a couple of people that they will fail or cut off unexpectedly if they are exposed to prolonged extreme heat (ie secured in the trunk or interior of a car). (Check with Cheaptrick on this site, I think he is one of the guys who told me about it when I was getting mine) Personally I havent had this problem so I cant say for sure, but I'll find out this June - Sept.

I had trouble getting used to the 2 aiming points in the sight (65 moa ring & 1 moa dot) I was used to the Aimpoint so it just took a little getting used to. Nothing major but something to consider if your switching over from the Aimpoint.

 

Aimpoint M2 

 

I have used an Aimpoint of some variation or another since they came out. They have proven to be my favorite red dot sight. Due to my familiarity and length of use, I am biased twords them. The controls are in exactly the right place.  I run my NVG's on my head not the rifle so I dont lose the FOV like I would if they were mounted on the rifle.

Pros: Easy to use, fast on target, extremely good battery life, & very durable.

Cons: Harder to find replacement batteries (a convience / gas station won't have them), You MUST use an ARD in front objectice for field use (animals or people will definately see the sunlight reflect off the objective lense), If you tandem mount NV behind it you will have a much smaller FOV than with the EoTech. Battery cap can be a pain to get threaded back on in the dark (our FNG's always had a problem with this at first).

 

Both sights are solid performers with proven combat reliability. They are both rugged, easy to zero, easy to use, quick on target, and hold their zero. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. It really is just a matter of personal taste.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 06:45
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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I like the Aimpoint, but the Eotechs 1 moa dot is nice also.

 

I agree with everything Joe already stated. We run M2's, but if your never going to use night vision gear, I would recommend the ML2. Exactly the same optic, less the NV compatibility.

 

If you are thinking about using magnification, be sure to check out Mithran's excellent ACOG review at the top of this forum. 



Edited by cheaptrick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 12:19
Mithran View Drop Down
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I ran the EoTech on the M-4 and M249.  Much bigger FOV used in tandem with NV.  dilligaf put it well that both have good strengths and weaknesses.  Actually I prefer no batteries at all and my all time pick, if I had to pick a dot sight would be Trijicons 1x24 SF 4 MOA amber dot reflex sight.  Uses tritium for illumination and has no batteries to fail.  Even though the EoTech and Aimpoint have great battery life I still don't like batteries.  Didn't I say this in another post.  Oh well. 

 

The ACOG is awsome by the way.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 12:29
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I still have the original battery that came with my Aimpoint, so battery life is "less" of an issue with the Aimpoint than the Eotech.

 

Carolina, you could get the Aimpoint M3/ML3 that came out.

10,000 hours battery life(I think), and the option to get a 2 moa dot.

 

I probably will stick with my M2 though.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 16:47
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My point wasn't about battery life.  I am not saying the Aimpoint or EoTech are trash.  I've used the EoTech a bunch and love it, but I wouldn't take it into a hairy situation.  My point is that when you have such a vital piece of equipment as a dot sight I don't want something happening to the battery like not making a connection or water and muck getting into the battery housing and fouling it up or what ever.  I've never heard of the Aimpoints or EoTech's fowling because of these reasons but I am a firm believer of Murphy's Law and I'd rather not rely on batteries for a weapons sight.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 16:57
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mithran Mithran wrote:

My point wasn't about battery life.  I am not saying the Aimpoint or EoTech are trash. 

 

Mithran, my last post was directed toward dilligaf, not you.

I didn't see his comment about battery life when I first read his thread.

 

I know your fond of the Eotech.  

 

I also think the battery life on the new M3's are actually closer to 50,000 hours.



Edited by cheaptrick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 19:28
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My post wasn't so much about the EoTech vs. Aimpoint.  I don't like batteries, I think they're too much of a liability too go bad in one way or another at the wrong time.

 

No harm done as it wasn't my goal either.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2005 at 22:55
dilligaf View Drop Down
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Carolina flats,

Good luck with the build let us know how it turns out.

 

 

Mithran,

Brother your preaching to the choir about things with batteries. But unfortunately by making things easier we have strangled our selves with the technology.  Now our sights, NVG's, GPS, ASIP, PAC4, sat phones, laser range finders, etc, etc, etc are all batteries required. God I miss the days of a compass, map, PRC 77, and my M21.

 

Joe



Edited by dilligaf
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2005 at 10:19
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You are right about a lot of gear using batteries.  I'm guilty of using them.  I think NVG's, GPS, PEQ-2's, thermal sights (which I've used and are so cool) and all other gear that uses batteries are awsome and very useful pieces of gear.  My opinion is that your weapon is the most imortant piece of gear you have and the sights to shoot that weapon are the second most important.  I would not prefer to use batteries on a piece of gear so important.  I'll take NVG's and a range finder but I can live without all that other stuff.  I'm not trying to say I would never use gear with batteries, I just don't want a dot sight that uses batteries.  I would rather use a good ol' lensatic and a map as well.

 

This is all my opinion and I didn't want to rustle any feathers.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2005 at 12:18
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Thanks for all your responses! If you take out the concern over using batteries, then which sight of the three offers the best performance when co-witnessing with a flip-up rear sight and standard front? Seems like an Eotech mounts to a flat-top and is pretty much in the same sight plane. Can the Reflex II or Aimpoint be mounted simlarly without spending to much for mounts? Also, is the tritium insert in the reflex bright enough to easily pick it up at night for quick shooting? Thanks again!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2005 at 13:04
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The aimpoint would take the GRP railgrabber and a spacer to co-witness.

 

Aimpoint Quick Release Picatinny Ring Mount....$88.95

Aimpoint Spacer Rail Grabber.... $9.95

 

 

The Reflex sight would take just one piece to co-witness. The RX14 mount.

 

RX 14 Trijicon Reflex Mount.... $104.95

 

The tritium will be bright enough to pick it up quick. The Eotech may be the quickest due to it's large 65 moa ring drawing your attention to it. Once you acquire target with the tritium sight I feel you will have better success with it due to the crispness of the dot. It will take a few seconds for your eye to adjust. At first the dot will appear poor in shape. It will sharpen up perfectly round after that. The electrical powered dots in the aimpoint and eotech will be some what blotchy.

 



Edited by Brady
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2005 at 13:34
carolinaflats View Drop Down
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Thanks Brady, I did experience the few seconds of focus with the Reflex II that I looked at. It was the orange triangle in one that I looked at in person. I agree with your idea of the Eotech being quicker due to the ring around the dot and think I'll probably go with the Eotech due to simplicity in it's mounting. Thanks again for all your responses. Looks like uncle sam is going to let me have some money back this year so when he does I'll get this gun together and post some pics. Brady I'll give you guys a call when I'm ready to order an Eotech and a GG&G flip up rear sight.  Thanks again for all of your responses!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2005 at 17:32
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carolinaflats,

If you are going to run an EoTech with a standard front sight I would recommend a Larue QD mount that will raise the optic about 1/2". This will provide a better cheek to stockweld and allow the iron sights to co-witness in the lower 1/3 of the optics sight. The rifle I'm running the EoTech on has flip up BUIS front & rear and I still run it on a Larue mount.

 

I'm sorry but I dont like the Aimpoint mounts. Spend the extra money, save your self some frustration and money (buying a better mount) later on down the road & buy a good mount, ARMS 22M68 or Larue make about the best for the Aimpoint. If you dont believe me ask cheaptrick, mithran, or go to AR15.com there are tons of threads about this subject and even pics looking through most of the sights with different mounts.

 

Joe

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2005 at 18:07
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As usual, dilligaf has given excellent advise.

 

I love my Aimpoint/Larue mount!!

Larue are to carbines, what Badger is to bolt guns!!

 

And as Joe stated, go to AR15.com and check it out.

You can literally spend a week in there going through the archives, links, and asking stupid questions(like I did today) and still not find the end of the information.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/15/2005 at 16:11
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Thanks again fellas! I have looked a bit on AR15.com but I find it difficult since there is SO much info there.  I always like this site because it's strictly about optics.  I've found in my experience that other general firearm forums like AR15, TFL, and others have to many idiots giving advice about stuff they've "heard" about instead of actually used it.  Not only does this site have guys like those who have responded here(who have actual hands-on experience), but they also have guys like Chris and Brady who test, use, and sell everything they talk about! 

But back to the original idea...So you guys prefer the back up sites in the lower third of the window of the optics you're using? I've seen mounts that are made for this, but I figured with the eotech, using it in the same general aiming plane would be ideal. Does it all boil down to personal preference or is having the back ups lower in the "window" of the Eotech better for some reason? Thanks again!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/15/2005 at 19:57
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Hi guys,

I'm new around here, but I'd like to contribute some personal experience with the Eotech 512.  I mounted it on a Colt Match Target HBAR and discovered after zeroing that the front sight being in line with the dot was a serious aggravation. I found myself constantly trying to look around the front sight to acquire the target. So then I would shift my cheek higher on the stock to move the dot above the front sight. Thus only being able to use the upper third of the window. Long story short, thanks for providing the answer to this problem, dilligaf.

 

I recommend the Eotech for wide field of view and excellent aiming reticle design, and raising it 1/2 inch makes it really sweet.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2005 at 22:33
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I like mine in the lower 1/3. Where your BUIS sights sit in the optic is a matter of pers pref. But remember at any distance the standard front sight can entirely hide a descent sized target if you have your non firing eye closed. But at CQB ranges with both eyes open focusing on the optics reticle you probably wont see it. To be quite honest I think my standard front sight has just about out lived its usefullness.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2005 at 21:23
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Yeah, I'm pretty much stuck with the habit of closing the non-firing eye. And mostly what I;m shooting at (steel) is between 100 and 250 yards, so CQB isn't really part of the equation. But I see your point (pun intended). I'm just going to raise mine a half inch, cause I still shoot pure iron sight stages.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2005 at 01:21
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I got to use the ACOG quite a bit in my last deployment.  I like it and once you get the chance to put some rounds down range in a variety of conditions it holds its own except in low light since it uses tritium. I like some others don't care for battery operated items.  Seems like you never have them when you need them or you left them in your pack or the vehicle.  So it really comes down to your intended purpose for the sight and frequency of use, does it need to eb ready at a moments notice? lighting conditions are also a consideration.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2005 at 09:56
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Leupold makes a few scopes that would be right at home on your carbine and Leupold illuminated reticles are there with or with out batteries.

 

Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5x20 w/ M2 .223 Bullet Drop Dial, Illuminated Special Purpose Reticle

Leupold 1.5-5x20 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope

 

 

 

Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 3-9x36 w/ M1 Turrets, Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle

 
Leupold 3-9x36 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope

 

 

Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T 1-3x14

Leupold 1-3x14 Mark 4 CQ/T Riflescope  

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