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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 07:55
mgraham View Drop Down
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Ok here is the deal.. I would love to do some "tests" or comparisons of my scopes since i just got a S&B the other week. I would be comparing zeiss con 3x9x50, S&B 3x12x50, nightforce 5x22x56.. What is the best way for me to compare these scopes on an even playing field. I have some printed out resolution charts, but i wish i had some guidelines as to how far to put them out and what power. Any advice would be greatly appreciated so that i can vividly see the difference between the 3. What about testing low light capability? Is the best way to do that under moonlight? You could do it at dusk, but since it is getting darker and darker by the minute, couldnt that flaw the results.. Again, forgive my newbness, i just would love to see glass difference with a valid test of I can read or decifer this instead of "that looks clearer than this".. Thanks guys.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 08:36
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Again, forgive my newbness, i just would love to see glass difference with a valid test of I can read or decifer this instead of "that looks clearer than this".. Thanks guys.
Thats pretty much all you'll ever get from this type of test. Scope optics do not make lenses corrections in the observers vision shortcoming. The information you get would be more directed at the differences in the internal construction of the scopes. If you are really serious about a scope test, drop all three of a 200 ft. tower, detonate, 1/4 lb. of tannerite near all 3, heat all three up with a hair dryer until to hot to handle, then with gloves rip the power selector ring back and forth 2000 times, then crank in full elevation let set for a couple of days, then start your box tests.
Or do it the way Zeiss tests lenses with one of their machines
My money is on the NF
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 08:53
mgraham View Drop Down
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An opinion test would be "that bush looks more clearer in this scope than that one.." A test where you actually have to decipher or read or count something would be seemingly a fairly valid test where the variable is the user, but at least it would be vaild to the user..

Your test is purely construction/durability which i guess is the only test that wouldnt have opinionated results.
 
All i care about doing is optical. I had this assumption from reading other posts before i got my S&B, that once i got it, there would be a big vivid difference between it and my conquest and nightforce, but by just glancing through them, i do not see a big difference.. This is why i wanted to have a test where i could have actual results or proof that the S&B has better glass than the zeiss.
BTW, my vision is perfect and uncorrected... at least while i am still fairly young....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 09:05
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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No such thing as perfect human vision. The HVS (human visual system) is 90% cognition and 10% physical transport. What does "more clearer" mean?? Doesn't mean a thing to me or is it useful. This type of testing will only tell you that the NF will work better on golf balls at 500 yds, and that the SB will be better at low light when set on the same power. (even that would depend on the person). Sounds more like your are going thru consumer "congitive dissonance".
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 09:19
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yes you could say that cognitgive dissonance is accurate. I do not mind paying for excellence. I bought my NF cause it was suited for 1000 yd and it is build like a tank and has a great overall value for the $$. I got the S&B cause i wanted the best glass and I had assumed (from what i have read) that there was an optical difference between the S&B and NF&Conquest, meaning a difference could be seen with the naked eye, as we know all three are different from the other without being able to prove it. I guess the bottom line is that i want to be able to pick up all three scopes and be able to pick out the 2k glass vs the $500 conquest.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 09:33
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Look at your resolution charts at varying distances in low light. The time the sun sets is relative. The important times are either a half hour before or after sunset where I hunt.
I consider low light performance to be very important in my scheme of hunting. The ability to see the reticle against the target is paramount. Being able to see small obstructions like brush and branches comes next. This would go out a few hundred yards, at least.
I would think the S&B should stand out in this scenario.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:16
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Originally posted by mgraham mgraham wrote:

yes you could say that cognitgive dissonance is accurate. I do not mind paying for excellence. I bought my NF cause it was suited for 1000 yd and it is build like a tank and has a great overall value for the $$. I got the S&B cause i wanted the best glass and I had assumed (from what i have read) that there was an optical difference between the S&B and NF&Conquest, meaning a difference could be seen with the naked eye, as we know all three are different from the other without being able to prove it. I guess the bottom line is that i want to be able to pick up all three scopes and be able to pick out the 2k glass vs the $500 conquest.
 
ahh--- you want a coffee table discussion difference, not a specific difference in use.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:19
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Originally posted by mgraham mgraham wrote:

Ok here is the deal.. I would love to do some "tests" or comparisons of my scopes since i just got a S&B the other week. I would be comparing zeiss con 3x9x50, S&B 3x12x50, nightforce 5x22x56.. What is the best way for me to compare these scopes on an even playing field. I have some printed out resolution charts, but i wish i had some guidelines as to how far to put them out and what power. Any advice would be greatly appreciated so that i can vividly see the difference between the 3. What about testing low light capability? Is the best way to do that under moonlight? You could do it at dusk, but since it is getting darker and darker by the minute, couldnt that flaw the results.. Again, forgive my newbness, i just would love to see glass difference with a valid test of I can read or decifer this instead of "that looks clearer than this".. Thanks guys.
 
Most folks don't do what you are talking about.  They look through this or that scope and say, "I think this is better," or, "This cost more and everyone knows you get what you pay for."
 
If you look for Swarovski vs Bushnell a couple pages down, you will see how I compared my scopes for low light.  The test is for me to see which is better and for fun for others to share in.
 
Also I bumped the "Line Test" up so you could see how I did what you are asking about.  This sort of thing is very illuminating for the person who is going to use the scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:26
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Disclaimer.

Rich Coyle has vision problems (he is night blind) so his tests are really only applicable to him. And because of his vision problems he will see stuff differently than 99% of the rest or us during any light.  So please do not take his so called scientific tests to serious, as pretty much none of us that have the same scopes he is talking about get even close to the same results he claims.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:28
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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when doing your comparisons, keep in mind that the shooter/system may or may not be capable of taking advantage of better optical properties, but the shooter can never take advantage in the bad tracking, poorly designed reticles (at least marginal).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:35
mgraham View Drop Down
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the word use is relative.. but whatever the use, I didnt pay for the S&B just for the name, but for the quality in all the varying degrees of determing optical quality. It appears from a lot of opinions that there are varying degrees of quality and S&B seems to be superior to NF and the Zeiss conquest line. I was wanting to have a test to form my own opinion and from that opinion determine the optical quality vs price issue..
 
Thanks tahqua for your input. Would moonlight be sufficient and a reasonable comparison to the time after sunset, obviously not an actual comparison, but i would assume that low light results would be very similar to moonlight results. We are talking about an 8.5 x 11 resolution chart that are available on the web....right? at least that is what i have. .
 
So Dave, what is your opinion on optical quality on high end scopes. What do you personally think is the "best"? not best value, but best optical quality..
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:37
tahqua View Drop Down
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Mgraham, since you already have some very fine optics, I would set them up as I suggested. Try this in the evening as light gets progressively worse. Try 50, 100 and then 200 yards with your charts or any other object you would like.
Rich Coyle, I have gone over your thread enough times. I also have no NF experience. You also have admitted to low light vision problems.
I have much experience with Bushnell and Swarovski optics. As has been pointed out, your observations along with your two gunsmiths, runs contrary to the vast majority of members here and shooters I know. I have compared LOW glass to numerous European glass from the big three. I also include some of my favorite Leupolds. There is a substantial difference in low light performance and resolution between the alpha glass and the LOW glass.
To keep perpetuating your very unique observations to folks coming here for questions is a disservice to them. You should at least include your vision impairment as a disclaimer, at the very least.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:40
tahqua View Drop Down
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Moon light is okay. I would suggest an overcast day for best results.
Rifledude has some S&B scopes, as pothers here do. They all find them to be excellent in every regard. Even if you did buy this scope on name, and you didn't, your choice is an excellent one.
I look forward to your results.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:47
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So Dave, what is your opinion on optical quality on high end scopes. What do you personally think is the "best"? not best value, but best optical quality..
 
 
If you mean me, I usually don't get into the optical quality arguements. To me its a dead horse issue. If you had a 1911 to my head I'd have to go Zeiss FL.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:50
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Dale, you forgot to add: freezing to -20F immediately after the 2000 turns test, then repeating said test.

mgraham, it's going to be difficult to perform a truly scientific test on scope optics because you need both distance and tightly controlled light conditions. What comes to mind is a 300-yard-long tunnel with a highly calibrated artificial light source at the end, etc. But without a doubt, there are some fairly detectable differences between different scopes and other optics. One thing that can make the comparison hard is objective size because a larger objective will have more resolution than a smaller one and allow more light transmission at the same magnification. Of course glass quality and other design features will play a part in working with or against this.

I cannot, for example, truly compare my Premier 3-15X50 with my NF 2.5-10X32 because of the NF's much smaller objective. I can tell you subjectively that through an operational range of 3-10X, the Premier is the better optic but I cannot tell you why, other than guessing that the combination of larger objective and higher quality glass and perhaps design/construction play a part.

I've mentioned before on this forum that the Premier (meaning its combination of design, components and construction) will show .308 bullet holes at 300 yards through moderate mirage while my POS $75 refurb Bushnell 18-36x50 spotting scope @ 36X is worthless. So obviously there is a difference between these two devices and it's not the objective size. Perhaps it's nothing more than a crappy eyepiece in the spotter.

To wrap up, you tend to get what you pay for but always consider the whole package, not just the glass quality. You can test, but it will be highly subjective.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 10:50
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Also comparing tactical scopes and hunting scopes is really a dead horse
Beating a Dead Horse
Beating a Dead Horse
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 11:05
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Mgraham, since you already have some very fine optics, I would set them up as I suggested. Try this in the evening as light gets progressively worse. Try 50, 100 and then 200 yards with your charts or any other object you would like.
Rich Coyle, I have gone over your thread enough times. I also have no NF experience. You also have admitted to low light vision problems.
I have much experience with Bushnell and Swarovski optics. As has been pointed out, your observations along with your two gunsmiths, runs contrary to the vast majority of members here and shooters I know. I have compared LOW glass to numerous European glass from the big three. I also include some of my favorite Leupolds. There is a substantial difference in low light performance and resolution between the alpha glass and the LOW glass.
To keep perpetuating your very unique observations to folks coming here for questions is a disservice to them. You should at least include your vision impairment as a disclaimer, at the very least.
 
Since you have seen my posts so many times, why look again? 
 
The information I suggesed to a new poster is what method I used.  His results may vary.  It is a starting place.
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Thanks guys for all your input. This whole situation is kind of like the many people that just read this forum and then want to sit around and talk about which scope is better and the so called best scope without ever even laying a hand on any of them. I have a friend that swears his leupold is the brightest scope ever, but he has never even done any comparisons nor looked through high end glass. I have no basis to say any scope is brighter or clearer than another except when it comes to comparing an NCSTAR with my trucks defrosting windows, but if you asked me what is the "best" scope, I would have to defer and say what i have read about the Hensoldt line. I like to take out all variables when i hunt or target shoot, which is why i buy custom guns, reload, and practice. But you cant practice looking through optics, it is either better than the next or not optically, not structurally or operationally. I hope to find substantial results that are similar to most others without showing bias during testing. It would be nice to actually test some scopes without reticles or at least all the same reticles and adjustments and see what a real opinionated test would reveal cause of course someone who sports a z6,victory,etc. will more than likely not tell you that any of these are in the same ballpark as any low or middle end scope as the majority have probably never performed any comparisons.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 12:03
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You are probably not going to see the kind of huge difference you are hoping for between a Conquest and your S&B.  It is not going to be like comparing the NCSTAR to the Conquest.  You many only gain a 5% to 10% better image quality with the S&B over the Conquest, maybe less.  But the times you will see the diff is in low light and in shadows and thick timber.  you may see a much larger increase at times like that.

Some form there own opinions like your buddy has with his Leupold and that will never change.  Kind of like Rich Coyle.  He came on here a few weeks back making all kinds of claims about how cheap optics were just as good as higher end.  Even made the claim that Tasco world class are better than some high end glass.  No matter what anyone else says he has already made up his opinion and that is final.  And that is fine, as we are all going to have biases and want what we bought to be the best.  Very few people have the knowledge or tools to really test the optics anyway.  But the things we can thoroughly test are mechanics and durability, which play a huge role.  The optics themselves best to leave that to the experts like ILya who do that for a living and have the tools necessary to really test them.

I just got a Z6 not long ago.  When I first looked through it it did not really wow me.  But the more time I spend comparing it to my other scopes in low light the more I saw how nice it really is going to be.  Just before dark it is significantly brighter than anything else I own.  During the daylight it is not all that noticeable, but in low light, wow what a difference.  I have not done any fancy tests, I just look at objects and compare them.  So for me, I think it is going to be worth it the added cost.  For others maybe not. 

Your S&B will be right up their with the best.  Swaro, Leica, Zeiss, S&B all make some great optics.  Trying to figure out and prove which one is best is just splitting hairs and you will just drive yourself crazy and spend a ton of money hoping and wanting that last possible 1% better.   I chose the Swaro out of the big 4 because I got the best deal on it.  If I would have got the same deal on a Zeiss or Leica, I would have bought one of those instead. 
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Quote
we are all going to have biases and want what we bought to be the best
I do not want it to be the best, period. 
 
I want it to f'in work, period. 
 
If it is the best, I know I wasted money.
 
Maybe since I grew up in sub-sistence agriculture using rusted junk to scratch out enough food and shelter and few dollars for the tax man, I never espressed the "pride of ownership" gene that allows one to want, much less enjoy, the best.
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Some form there own opinions like your buddy has with his Leupold and that will never change.  Kind of like Rich Coyle.  He came on here a few weeks back making all kinds of claims about how cheap optics were just as good as higher end.  Even made the claim that Tasco world class are better than some high end glass.  No matter what anyone else says he has already made up his opinion and that is final.  And that is fine, as we are all going to have biases and want what we bought to be the best. 
 
You seem to forget I purchased the high end scopes, the mid-range scopes and the low end scopes with my own earned money.  The tests I did and continued to do are for me to determine which is best for me; not someone else.  The information can be used by others at times.   Some times if for nothing better than to tell me how stupid or blind I am.  That is their fun. 
 
There are some folks who like the Leupold guy and probably most here, if they would admit it, have not done careful comparisons for themselves.  They spout what someone else, who probably hasn't done comparisons, says.  The idea that we should leave testing up to the experts does not help us when we finally decide what is best for us.
 
Taking my Bushnell and NightForce and looking at a distant bush, with both set on the same magnification, shows neither is better than the other.  When I did the "Line Test" I discovered the NightForce is without a doubt better than either my Swarovski or the Bushnell.  When I did the after sunset comparison I discovered the Swarovski is better than the Bushnell.  Looking at a bush in the middle of the day would not give me this info.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 14:28
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Originally posted by mgraham mgraham wrote:

Thanks guys for all your input. This whole situation is kind of like the many people that just read this forum and then want to sit around and talk about which scope is better and the so called best scope without ever even laying a hand on any of them. I have a friend that swears his leupold is the brightest scope ever, but he has never even done any comparisons nor looked through high end glass. I have no basis to say any scope is brighter or clearer than another except when it comes to comparing an NCSTAR with my trucks defrosting windows, but if you asked me what is the "best" scope, I would have to defer and say what i have read about the Hensoldt line. I like to take out all variables when i hunt or target shoot, which is why i buy custom guns, reload, and practice. But you cant practice looking through optics, it is either better than the next or not optically, not structurally or operationally. I hope to find substantial results that are similar to most others without showing bias during testing. It would be nice to actually test some scopes without reticles or at least all the same reticles and adjustments and see what a real opinionated test would reveal cause of course someone who sports a z6,victory,etc. will more than likely not tell you that any of these are in the same ballpark as any low or middle end scope as the majority have probably never performed any comparisons.
You will repeat the proof for the Thereom of Large Numbers--- Your results will look just like a
bell curve.
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well... i was definitely surprised by what i saw.... I only set up some charts at 40 yards in the backyard and took a few minutes to see what i saw at sunset. The NF was a little clearer/brighter in comparison to the S&B and the Zeiss. I mean it was just a little difference. The S&B was definitely bright, but I think of brightness and clearness as two different things. Maybe I am wrong. I could see the lines on the chart with the NF without straining and although i could see them with the zeiss and S&B, i had to strain to make them out. Granted this was just a test in my backyard and at short range and assuming the NF was on the same power as the others. THey were all set on the same power and my question is did the 6mm in objective variance make that much difference in my results..? I would have thought that the S&B glass would trump the objective difference. I hope to test again tomorrow evening out to 300 yard.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2010 at 19:12
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mgraham,
 
Some times the objective size does not do what one expects.  Last March I compared my 13X56 MInox, 4 1/2-30X50 Bushnell and 12-42X56 NightForce for low light.  This was after sunset.  At 6:42 I could not read the words, but could make out individual letters.  The Bushnell went down at 6:44 and the NightForce continued till 7PM.
 
A couple weeks ago I brought them out again an included the my new Swarovski Z5 5-25X52.  I was a little later getting started than last time.  In order to read the words 127 yards away the Swarovski only needed 9 1/2X.  The Bushnell needed 12X and with the Minox I couldn't read them at all.
 
Careful testing for one's own use definately shows which glass is better than other glass no matter what the purchase price.
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