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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 14:45
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The article is describing a tour of Leupold's rifle scope factory.  I wanted to know what you all think and whether the article is bias or not, or if you have some alternate information regarding their manufacturing process.  Thanks dudes!

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_tour.htm

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 15:10
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I strongly disagree that you get more than what you pay for a leupold. It is a shame that with the good people that work there at that facility,the people on top can not get thier............

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 16:03
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I found that the article was fairly unbias, He presented mostly facts, but worded it in a way that made it seem as though leupold is way better than all scopes.

 

Consider this; say that S&B produces a total of 50 scopes a day at their manufacturing facility, and Tasco produces about 50,000 scopes a day. So relatively speaking there are more low-end scopes out there than there are high-end, due to the lower demand for higher-end scopes. With that in mind, most would agree that any leupold scope is better than most sub-100$ tasco, barska, simmons and bushnell scopes, so I can say, "leupold scopes are better than most other scopes out there." without actually lying. But hey telling half-truths is what puts food on the table for Chuck Hawks,

 

Basically what he did was talk about all the advantages of leupold and it's superiority to other scopes, without mentoning names, or comparing prices.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 16:09
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Agreed, Anthony.  I think that Leupold does a very good job of keeping in mind what the hunter actually wants, though, or at least they do for me.  To me, Leupold scopes are best for my applications and my needs.  I do find, however, that Nikons, Bushnells, Burrises, etc... are also very good, but they just don't have quite what I need.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:16
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Several comments:

1) It is a reasonably well written advertisement piece for Leupold.

2) I do not know what Chuck Hawks' experience with photography is, but he does not know jack $sh*t about scopes and binoculars.  Or, rather, if he does have any knowledge of the subject he goes to great lengths to conceal it.  To the best of my knowledge he has never reviewed a scope he did not like (even when he was reviewing absolute POS scopes).

3) While Leupold is a good company, their value proposition is based heavily on people believing the BS written by Chuck Hawks et al.

A few more to the point comments:

"Most Leupold employees are hunters and recreational shooters and use Leupold scopes themselves. They know from personal experience how a good scope should work and what it does."
I could not care less if the guy assembling my scope has ever pulled the trigger.  You do not have to know anything about the inside workings of optical instruments to be a good hunter.  I want the guy assembling my scope to be good in assembling scopes.   Whether he knows how to stalk close to the deer makes no difference to me. 

"
The ring manufacturing process was interesting. Briefly, a slice of the appropriate width was cut from solid bar stock. Then this circular slice of steel was machined to the outside shape and contour of the desired scope ring. A hole for a 1" diameter scope tube was then drilled through the blank. It was then sawn in half, creating the top and bottom parts of the ring. No wonder the top and bottom halves of a Leupold scope ring match perfectly!"
Which exact rings is he referring to? not all Leupold rings are made from steel.  As for matching perfectly, that depends on how lucky you get.  The only rings I have never had problems with are TPS and Warne (have not used Badgers for any length of time, but they are very good from what I hear).  I've had problems with Leupold, Burris and Weaver rings in roughly equal proportion.  With that in mind, I am sure more expensive Leupold rings are excellent, while the cheap ones are ... cheap.

"
This data can be translated into acceleration loads ("g force") over time and fed into a piece of high tech, torture test equipment about the size of a telephone booth that, in my mind, I dubbed the "Mangler." A test scope placed in this high tech scope tester can then be subjected to exactly the same loads as it would be if mounted on the rifle from which the data was collected. Any scope can be subjected to destructive loads in this machine. Naturally, Leupold also uses this technology to test other brands of scopes to see how well the competition is doing. All Leupold and most other brands and models of scopes (purchased right off the shelf in retail stores) are tested in this lab.

It is Leupold's company policy not to build their reputation by downgrading the products of other manufacturers, a policy I respect and admire. Other brand names are never specifically mentioned in Leupold advertising, or during a factory tour. David told us flatly, however, that Leupold scopes are the toughest in the world. He also told us, smiling, that they have removed ultra-high priced European brand scopes from the Mangler with a broom."


This test machine is a commonly used shock/vibration tester that has been around for a couple of decades at least.  EVERY scope can be destroyed on a machine like that if that's the intent.  Wisely, Chuck does not mention whether the Euro scopes destroyed by their machine were subjected to the same workout as typical Leupold scopes, whether it was some random scope, or whether the looked through a batch of competitor scopes found one that dies and proudly had Chuck write about it.


"In 1962 Leupold invented and introduced the Duplex reticle. Virtually every other scope manufacturer has copied this basic style of reticle, and most of the copies are quite satisfactory. However, to this day nobody does a "plex" reticle quite as well as Leupold. We found out that in most Leupold scopes the actual reticle is made from fine platinum wire. The wide (outer) areas of the crosswire are created by flattening the wire. So simple, I never would have thought of it.


The statement on Leupold having the best Duplex reticle is highly questionable.  Based on what criterion?  Oh, and this self proclaimed expert did not know how the reticle is made before this visit.  How long has he been writing about scopes?


"The Leupold optics lab, which we visited, is unique in being the most sophisticated and capable privately owned lab of its type in the United States. It is equipped with all manner of sophisticated optical test equipment. This optics lab allows Leupold engineers and designers to test virtually any performance specification or optical formula. From this testing comes the ability to design new products and improve current products. Leupold also tests competitive products in this lab to keep on top of the industry."


Lab of what type?  All optical labs are a little different.  Heck, I can claim that the lab I have at work is the best on of its type.  Noone else has an identical lab.  It is a type of one.  Incidentally, did Chuck make a survey of privately owned optical testing labs around the country?  This is all off the shelf equipment with a few custom fixtures.  Once again, not rocket science.  Except to Chuck.


"Like most manufacturers in the consumer optical business, Leupold outsources its optical glass. (There are actually only a few optical glass suppliers in the world, something I learned during my years in the photography business.) Various types of optical glass, formulated to Leupold's specification, are purchased from companies in Europe, Japan, and the U.S."


Glass and lenses are not the same.  Leupold buys coated lenses from the Orient and assembles them in the US.  Chuck is making it sound like they are just buying bulk glass.  That's BS.  The lenses are ground and coated elsewhere.  Mostly in Japan and Korea I think, although there are some rumors that some are made in China.  Leuold binocular.spotter stuff is frequently made in China.  That's common knowledge, but I am not sure if that has propagated to their scope line yet.


"As I have often observed about the optical industry, when you buy the best--contrary to what is commonly supposed--you are not paying more for the brand name. Rather, you are getting more than you paid for--and probably more than you realized at the time. Certainly this is true of Leupold scopes."


While this BS really does not require any additional commenting, I could not resist.  If you are buying Leupold, you are not buying the best.  And vice versa.  When, as a consumer, you buy a scope, you typically get exactly what you paid for.  Otherwise, you could immediately resell it and make money. 


Next time you buy a Leupold, keep in mind that you are also paying for the "care package" that Chuck Hawks received after his visit, his lunch with a marketing manager, and for the advertising expenditures.


In the electronics world, Apple was oft

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:19
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Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Agreed, Anthony.  I think that Leupold does a very good job of keeping in mind what the hunter actually wants, though, or at least they do for me.  To me, Leupold scopes are best for my applications and my needs.  I do find, however, that Nikons, Bushnells, Burrises, etc... are also very good, but they just don't have quite what I need.

 

Good to see you back guitarman

 

With regard to the quote above that is underlined, I have to disagree.  It's not necessarily what the HUNTER wants, it's what LEUPOLD's MARKETING DEPARTMENT decides what the hunter should "think" they want.  Case and point: the VX-L series.  That is an absolute abortion of a scope.  Leupold has gone about trying to convince hunters that they have a problem that 95% of them don't have.  The design looks ridiculous and yet they claim that "they can break the rules in rifle optics because they make the rules..."  Pathetic, and the glass is the SAME used in the VX-III yet they charge a LOT more for it.  From what I've heard at a few local stores, sales of the VX-L have not been very good. 

 

One area where I do agree with you is that they do offer a ton of scopes with darn near every option available.  Reticle choices, different varible magnifications, etc.  They make a scope for every situation in the field or on the bench.  However, once you get to the level where you want or need the best optics, you've run out of options with Leupold.  This really isn't a problem from "Leupold the company" perspective as they dominate every single market demographic and scope catagory except the "premium, highly specialized" market where USO, S&B, Zeiss, IOR, Swarovski, Kahles, etc. pretty much kicks Loopy's butt in every characteristic.  Their margins are VERY good in the catagories where the most sales volume occurs (under $500). 

 

Just out of curiousity, what is it that Leupold specifically offers that other manufacturers have ignored?  Varmint reticle???

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:26
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Sorry, ceylonc, I started this thread with the intent of keeping my opinions to myself, and it is obvious I have failed in doing that lol.  What I should have said was...

 

"Leupold fits the bill for what I want..." not what hunters want. 

 

That was my mistake and I apologize.  Thanks very much guys for your input on this, I thought the article was a little fishy...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:31
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It is nothing but marketing BS.....Great posts Koskin,Ceylonc.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:40
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Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Sorry, ceylonc, I started this thread with the intent of keeping my opinions to myself, and it is obvious I have failed in doing that lol.  What I should have said was...

 

"Leupold fits the bill for what I want..." not what hunters want. 

 

That was my mistake and I apologize.  Thanks very much guys for your input on this, I thought the article was a little fishy...

 

No problem at all guitarman!  We're just shooting the breeze, having a good time!  All in good fun.

 

However, you never answered my question...  Just what is it that Leupold offers to YOU specifically that makes them right for you?

 

It's good that you're seeing the light with regard to Chuck Hawk's lovefest article.  What really got my attention is where (in the "Tactical" forum) you mentioned that you were going to post an "amazing" article that you read about Leupold.  I was praying that you wouldn't be taken in by ANYTHING written by Hawks concerning Leupold.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:49
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Haha sorry dude, that was the one.  I thought it was good and well-written I guess, but I am also something of a greenthumb when it comes to comparing scopes.

 

For me, the Leupold offers a perfect blend of ruggedness, weight, length, appearance, RETICLES, and an awesome warranty (I doubt I'll need it).  With everything else, I'll be making some sort of compromise, whether it's too long of a scope, has the normal duplex reticle (I don't care for them too much, I like the fine duplex), or it just plain won't look all that great on my gun.  I mean let's face it, it's nice to have a kickarse looking scope!

 

But yeah, they offer a very nice blend of all of these things (for me)!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 17:55
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Performance should be you only concern,not if it matches the size and color of your..........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 18:00
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Performance is my primary concern, and I feel that I can get that in the VX-III series scopes.  Some of the scopes in this series are very expensive, but if you look, I feel you can get a pretty decent deal...

 

I think I want the VX-III 4.5-14x40AO w/ fine duplex reticle, it's about 520 bucks, and I can get the alumina flip-up caps with it for free from SWFA.  I think it would be really nice for my needs...I'm putting it on a 22-250 (my favorite caliber :-)

 

If I were going to get something purely for hunting whitetails or other big game, I would probably get a 4200, because a fine duplex would be kind of ridiculous for that application.  I like target shooting though, and the fine duplex reticle is reallllly nice for that.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 18:18
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It's fairly well done.  I've read several articles about the Leupold factory and they are all similar.  Of course it's a positive article; that's why they invite writers to tour.  They also know their plant, equipment and people  are impressive.  You can question their image quality but anybody who questions the fact that they are well-made has no basis for the argument.  As far as durability and build quality, there is none better. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 18:27
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Thanks for answering guitarman.  I honestly believe that IF you opened your mind a little bit & gave a look to some products by Burris, Nikon, Sightron, and Bushnell Elite 4200 you would find yourself rethinking this opinion.

 

One thing about the internet is that anybody can post an opinion about anything and claim to be an expert.  However, when a complaint or issue continues to rear it's ugly head, at some point you have to give the claim some credence.  In this case, I'm going to posit that Leupold's acclaimed "customer service" is not as perfect as many would lead you to believe.  Here is a quote from another website I frequent that pertains to recent experience with Leupold's CS.  Granted, no company's CS is perfect but I'm beginning to see these kind of complaints more & more frequently concerning Leupold: 

 

"After being thoroughly frustrated with a Leupold scope -- a 4.5-14 x 40 AO VXIII mounted on a 300WM that started shifting impact and shooting 2-distict groups, and sending it to Leupold TWICE for repairs and them telling me TWICE there was nothing wrong with the scope. I sold it on eBay and figured I would give Burris a try..."

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 18:55
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Thanx ceylonc.  I hear ya bro, but I have also heard that Burris's customer service is very very poor.  I know that Leupold is a safe bet; I know that I might be paying a little extra, but I'm willing to accept it.  What I would guess is that the person who wrote the complaint above needs to work on his shooting technique .

 

I have actually considered all of the brands you have listed and more.  I even looked into Docters...  I feel that they are all of relatively equal quality.  What it comes down to is that Leupold is the only company who offers exactly what I want.  It basically comes down to a fine duplex reticle at around 12-14 power.  Other brands have the fine duplex, but I don't want a scope that has a maximum of 18 or 20, it is just too much for me.  Also, I truly do love Leupolds.  I won't get too finicky about 3% light transmission, as they are rated at approximately 92%.  I would rather have a scope of lighter weight, and all of the stuff I listed already.

 

But, in summary, I have considered ALL of the brands you listed, and many more...over and over and over again.  I just keep coming back to Leupold because the scope I indicated is EXACTLY what I want.  It's perfect for me!

 

I appreciate your input very much though!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:01
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No question that Leupold builds a durable scope, however, as small as the increase may be, I believe that the 4200 is stronger and more reliable. I only base my opinion on a sample of three Leupold scopes that I have traveled with and I can say with 100% certainty that the 4200's did not need to be re-zeroed after being subjected to what was obviously rough handling. I don't believe that somehow, the baggage handler's became benevolent right at the time I started using the Elite 4200's. I am a religious man, but that's a stretch. Add that to the fact that Bushnell subjects this design to twice the amount of recoil than does Leupold. If I ever get the desire to purchase a shoulder bruiser, say in the 340 Weatherby class or worse, I would probably put a Leupold on-board based on eye relief requirements. Other than that, I don't see myself purchasing one anytime soon.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:03
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Are you implying in your post that the Leupolds did need to be re-zeroed?  I would be surprised if they did...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:07
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Yes, I am. The scope that was the biggest offender was a 4.5-14x40 Vari-Xlll. The two 2.5-8 Vari-Xlll were better but not much. Maybe this is a isolated instance, but it is my personal experience, limited as it may be.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:08
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Keep in mind that I believe the scopes listed in ceylonc's post to be of relatively equal quality.  I will not deny that the 4200 might be slightly more durable, but I think the difference in this regard is very small, probably negligible.  Like I said, for my purposes, the Leupold is the best.  I'm not putting it on a .300MAG lol.  Even so, I feel confident it would do very well at that application!  I also feel the 4200 is an amazing scope, but they don't have anything that "tickles my fancy."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:13
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Hmm, it is interesting that you should say this.  I always thought that Leupolds were well-known for maintaining their POI.  Everyone I know with one has very good luck with it...

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I will just say that none of the Leupold scopes that I had ever lost zero related to shooting or rough handling in the field. I had them mounted on a 300 WM, a fairly lightweight 280 Ackley and a lightweight 30/06. I didn't think even the most determined baggage handler could dole out more abuse than the 300 WM does just from recoil alone.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 19:18
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Oh ok, I misunderstood you then, sorry.  Sorry man, it looks like its the best thing for me...
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Thank the man above for open minds...  Can you compare LEUPOLDS warranty to that  of  BUSHNELL, 1 year, no questions asked then limited life after the first year?? I purchased a 4200 on Finns advice just recently, couldnt be more pleased !!  I have had LEUPOLD reticles  out of level right out of the box and got nothing but greeeeefff  from there "famous  cust/serv.  and reputation"...  To me, if they want to continue to be a force  in optics, they might want to shine up that old name they been skating on for the last 10 years...  I dont see the "elite class" Bushnells on anyones referb, or rebuilt list to the degree of some others..  Leupolds name is becoming somewhat tarnished counting on what they did years ago to get them buy..  To me, I believe most people to be open minded, thus providing healthy competition in the market place an let those who manufacture suffer there own pittfalls..   I basically visit this sight to learn what not to do, being of an open mind..    30
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I hear ya hot30, and I agree that Bushnells are awesome.  Personally, I like Leupolds for the reasons listed above (a balance of all factors that make up a rifle scope).  I think that for my application, they're the best though. 

 

For other people, Bushnells might work better, and that doesn't bother me at all.  My best friend has a Sightron and it's GREAT.  Another good friend of mine uses a Weaver Grand Slam and it's AMAZING.  I use to use a Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40AO and it served me very well, although every once in awhile it would go blurry and I would have to tap it to clear it up , this did bother me.  One of my buds uses a Leupold and he LOVES it.  What's my point?  All of these scopes are really nice.  They're all of relatively equal quality, it's just a matter of finding the right one for YOU.  I just happened to find "the perfect fit" with Leupold.

 

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Guitarman, spoken like a man with an open mind..

 

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