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One rifle multiple scopes & keeping zero.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2017 at 21:50
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Optics GrassHopper
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Going to get a Kimber Open Country.  84M action, new this year.  I need to use multiple scopes on it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/670061227
http://www.kimberamerica.com/open-country

This will be a hunting rifle, range toy and shoot an occasional NRA high power match if I can find one in my orbit.
I'll need to swap between;
  • A light weight, low power hunting scope for toting around. TBD
  • My SWFA 6X, 20 oz.
  • One of the Leupold silhouette scopes (fixed 12X or 25X) for standing off hand competition, 14 oz. 
This may eventually evolve into more rifles but for now, how do I swap scopes on this thing and keep zero?
I don't need to win any competitions, I just want to play with my hunting rifle.  I know very little about rings and bases etc. so any help is appreciated.  Thanks ahead, Clinton.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 09:35
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Put a 20MOA rail on it, and mount all the scopes with the same brand rings (aadland would be a good choice, he uses very good quality fasteners and the lugs do a great job of minimizing movement front-to-back with on/off rotations.

Expect up to a 1MOA shift with each on/off cycle, meaning check zero before shooting for anything important.

The trick to what you want to do is a good torque wrench, and putting them in exactly the same spot and exactly the same way each time.  Like shooting, consistency will help immensely.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 13:16
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What RC suggeted will work.

However, it is a bit of a pain, and you will spend some money on bases, rings, tourque wrenches, etc.

Have you considered investing in a decent variable scope that will satisfy both needs?

There are several very nice 3-15x designs out there that might work for you.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 18:27
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Optics GrassHopper
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Wow, those Aadlands are beefy looking.  Would go great with the SWFA 6X.  I was surprised by their lightweight specs.  The Leupolds are 1" tubes and although the Aadlands have an insert, I'm not wild about the look with the smaller tube.  Maybe I could find a similar scope with a 30mm or different rings.  Tks for the reply.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 18:42
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

What RC suggeted will work.

However, it is a bit of a pain, and you will spend some money on bases, rings, tourque wrenches, etc.

Have you considered investing in a decent variable scope that will satisfy both needs?

There are several very nice 3-15x designs out there that might work for you.

ILya

Yes I have.  What has kept me from that is that high power Silhouette is shot from a standing position and the rifles tend to have high combs and taller scope rings to get a good cheek welds and sight picture from that position.  In that case I thought I would just swap to a taller scope setup and lace up a cheek riser to the stock.  I could see how at 25X the reticle could be pretty shaky without a good fit.  Maybe I'm making too much of this, I don't really know.
The other side of that is, I wanted a smaller, lighter scope for stalking than your typical 3-15X.
Thoughts?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 21:21
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Wow, offhand at 25X, i would hate that - though I don't shoot competitively.

There are a few ways to skin this cat. I agree with Koshkin that one catch-all scope would be simpler; but I was answering the original post as asked - I was not endorsing the solution.

You will definitely be several hundred in on wrench and various rings this way, before you get to buying glass.

The whole thing makes little sense to me, but it is doable nonetheless.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 22:12
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Optics GrassHopper
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RC, your opinions are welcome. Honestly, I wasn't sure how common this practice was. For all I knew, it was easy.

It looks to me like beginners use a 12X until they get used to it and then wish that ram targets @ 400 meters were bigger so they jump up in power and learn to discipline the reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2017 at 23:14
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Swapping scopes is not uncommon, but not as common for target shooting. Making the mounting very repeatable can be involved, but not it of the question with high quality rings.

25x top end with such a light rifle would be difficult. Honestly, if I were you, I would get something like the Razor HD LH 3-15x42 (this is the lightest high quality option I can think of) and set it up for your offhand shooting. Then add a removable cheekpiece that would allow you to have a proper cheekweld for hunting with the same rings.

That way, instead of swapping scopes, you just deal with the cheekpiece.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2017 at 17:03
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Several companies make quick detachable rings. I tend to like La Rue model 719 30mm rings for this issue.  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2017 at 17:12
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For frequent swapping if scores, I would stay away from LaRue. I have not had good luck with them at all.

Over time, they seem to chew up the rail which messes with reliability.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2017 at 21:19
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I would do rings and a torque wrench over a mount, but that's just me. There is no on/off option that holds absolute zero.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2017 at 23:04
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Tks for all of the replies, they are very much appreciated. I have some shopping around to do and weighing the costs. Clinton.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/18/2017 at 09:37
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I've decided to just mount the SWFA 6X for now and see where that takes me. If I don't mind the weight and doesn't feel top heavy I "may" spring for a 40mm March. They have nearly identical weight and dimensions. If not, will likely get the scope Ilya mentioned.
Is anybody manufacturing 20 moa rings for the Kimber 84m action?. I'm trying to avoid the rail now. Thanks again, Clinton
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/18/2017 at 09:54
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Why avoid the rail?  Just curious.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/18/2017 at 21:48
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Why avoid the rail?  Just curious.
  • I'm told you can keep the scope lower without it.
  • If I'm no longer swapping scopes, is it needed?
  • Extra weight & cost.
  • Access to reloading port?  This one may be a non-issue but once again, when it comes to applied optics knowledge I'm a novice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/19/2017 at 13:26
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If loading from the top, yes, a rail limits access, but not terribly so.

And most ring sets mount to something that mounts to the receiver, other than direct mount rings like the Talley Lightweights (which are also quite good. If going with a direct mount, I would consider these.)

Keep in mind that more often than we'd think, receiver holes are not perfectly placed.  With a rail, you find this out before you mess up your scope.  (Mounting a scope into not perfectly positioned holes can torque the scope body and cause issues.  Make sure, if using rings that direct mount to the receiver, to check for binding prior to torqueing.)

And the height of the scope above the bore axis can be just as low with a base and rings as with direct mount rings.

I like rails because they allow you to move the scope fore and aft more than rings alone most times.  If the rings are attached to the receiver, it limits the scopes you can mount and where/how you can mount it.

All these are subjective, it's just how I do it - having done it a few hundred times.

Most of my hunting rifles have rails.  My son's do not, he doesn't like rails.  All his stuff uses Talley rings that attach directly to the gun.

Mileage varies.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/19/2017 at 15:44
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Originally posted by 20nickels 20nickels wrote:


Is anybody manufacturing 20 moa rings for the Kimber 84m action?.  

If you're referring to rings only, or a 2-pc base/ring combo, no. For that matter, not for any other action either. The reason is because an inclined mount system simply won't work properly 100% of the time with a 2 pc system without binding up the scope. The exception is the Burris Signature ring with offset thickness inserts because the radiused inserts are self-aligning and can therefore compensate for variances in ring spacing and amount of inclination.

The reason an inclined mount system isn't compatible with 2 piece base setups (unless the "bases" are machined integrally with the top of the receiver with the inclination machined-in, such as on the Defiance Deviant Lightweight) is because a sloped mount system depends on the front and rear rings being aligned perfectly on the same plane or the ring inside diameters won't be concentric and will then bind the scope tube as ring spacing varies from some specified true position. With a 1 pc base/rail, ring spacing isn't critical because no matter where you install the rings on the rail, they sit on a consistent, straight plane, always maintaining ring alignment with the ring i.d. centerlines parallel with the base slope sincethe inclination is built-in to the base rail, not the rings. The same obviously applies to integral mount systems. If you tried to manufacture 2 pc mount systems with built-in 20/30/whatever MOA inclination, the inclination plane would only be in true alignment at a set precise ring spacing. If that spacing is off even the tiniest amount, the rings put the scope in a bind. Even if you had some kind of mechanical means to precisely control ring spacing, a manufacturer would then still have to make different rings for short vs long action versions of the same action. 

It's tough enough to ensure perfect alignment with a 2pc base "flat" mount system without adding inclination plane alignment to the mix. At least with a "flat" 2 pc system, varying ring spacing doesn't introduce an extra alignment axis error.

Again, the lone exception is the Burris Signature rings and potentially any other ring that uses gimbal-style radiused inserts that self compensate for misalignment in any axis. Again, this self-aligning feature allows you to use their offset style inserts to can get an inclined scope setup in a 2 pc system without binding.

I have a Pic rail on one of my Kimber 84Ms because it was necessary to use the QD mount on my thermal optic. Although it isn't as "pretty" as other mounts, it hasn't been an impediment to loading or ejecting cases.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2017 at 20:06
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Ok, Tks for the very thorough replies.  This product;
Talley Lightweight 2-Piece 20 MOA Scope Mounts with Integral Rings Remington 700.
Is what got me interested, and if I can still get the scope low with a rail It's not as big of a deal.  This really is good info.  I don't want to spend $2.5-4k on a rifle/scope & rings combo that won't do what I need.  That's a-lot of money to anybody but I don't mind crying once and getting the good stuff instead doing the upgrade path.  Those figures are before brass and dies, boolits, etc.
 Boo Hoo



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2017 at 13:55
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Optics GrassHopper
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Rifle is on the way 😎.
This thread has taken on a different direction but for anyone still listening;
What rings do you recommend for the heavy barreled 84m action that will keep a 6X SWFA and eventually a 3-25X40mm March low for a good cheek weld? Conetrols and Talleys seem popular but I'm open. Decided no rail necessary.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2017 at 15:24
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I have not found Conetrols to hold well - had a set slip badly on a light 300WM years ago.  Talleys, by comparison, have held fast on several guns that kick harder than a 3-legged ninja.

Conetrols look nice though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2017 at 16:08
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Wow, interesting. I would have guessed the opposite but I'll take function over purdy any day.
Also;
I should restate that the SWFA and the March are both 30mm and have nearly identical weight and dimensions. Happy coincidence.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2017 at 18:25
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

I have not found Conetrols to hold well - had a set slip badly on a light 300WM years ago. 
Just curious, did you lap the rings?  
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