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On a practical note...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2004 at 20:12
Knewt View Drop Down
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Lets concider a 7" kill zone.... which is certainly conservative enuff for even a small whitetail.

A 180 gr nos part sptz @ 2950 fps (zero'd @ 250 yds.)has a "point-blank out to about 298 yds.
Push that same bullet @ 3300 fps and your "point blank" goes out to about 310 yds.
Thats 12 yrds advantage for the extra 350 fps.

This amounts to about 10" difference at 600 yds...

The question is... is the extra recoil worth it?

My older body says no.... but I could be wrong, its happened before.

Opinions???

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2004 at 18:22
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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if your speaking of the 300 ultra mag, i find the recoil to be not very bad. if you can shoot the 300 win mag, with the velocity you first mentioned, you can probably withstand the ultra. you could get the remington sendero, which weighs in at over 9 lbs if i mot mistaken, and it should equalize the recoil. the higher velocity also creats higher muzzle energy. so if your talking about whitetail, the higher ME is clearly not needed, and the 300 WM would way more than do the job. you are better off using something liek a 7mm-08, or 270 for white-tail. they have almost the same tradjectory, and its easier to control, because of the low recoil, you can always get a scope like the FF2 with B-plex, VXIII with B&C, or Swarovski, and kahles with the TDS to compensate. so if you are recoil sensitvie, the extra knockdown is not worth the extra recoil.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2004 at 22:02
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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I like to think of this in the reverse, why not a 308?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2004 at 22:06
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I say 'no' as well. The reason I'm thinking of is dispersion, caused by several factors. Trajectory models don't have wind, vagaries of rests/position of hold, lack of practice @ 300 yards(we're all guilty), lighting variables, etc. And you're already thinking about recoil. Yes, I've shot deer at 300 yards even with all the reasons stated above that indicated that I probably shouldn't try. However, my hunt club in SC has shooting house towers and I carry a small shooting bag and towel for a rest. They're also equipped with adjustable height swivel office chairs(hey, they're comfortable). Also, aerial photo of area at each stand w/ laser measured distances. Most common calibers-.270, .308, .30-06, 7 mag(in order). Proven performance w/ manageable recoil. In FL my stands are leaners w/ shooting rails and I consider 200 yards as long even though I can see 1000 yards across clear cuts. Actually, at 300 yards, even a 9" paper plate looks kinda small to me. All this goes out the window if you see the right deer, though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2004 at 22:10
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Dale, are you agreeing with the lesser ( 308 ) is more than adequate for whitetails and hogs? I think what redneckbmxer was saying earlier in some of his posts was that he did not find the recoil of these mega magnums was not objectionable to him ( he's a bigger man than myself ) , but he was not saying that he felt that these ridiculously powerful rounds were necessary for 120 lb whitetails. At least that was the feeling I got from his statements. Call me old fashion, but , I don't think you need 2 tons of energy to drop a whitetail. Judging from you posts and your obvious knowledge of ballistics, I think that you would agree that rounds like the 7-08, 260 and 308 are more than adequate for the game in topic. What do you think?

Edited by Roy Finn
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2004 at 23:37
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Sorry... I didn't mean to make this a discussion about what cartrige for what game... but whether when you concider even a conservative sized kill zone ( which should work for anything from a small whitetail and UP....),and concidering the average comfortable maximum shooting distance, if any thing much over around 3100 fps in any big game caliber is necessary for hunting?

The guys that do the most serious hunting.... military snipers... want to shoot a bullet (30 caliber and up ) somewhere around 2800-3100 fps.

Certainly they can either make or aquire hotter calibers but in other than very specialized applications, they seem to stay right around the 3K level.

( You have to remember that my favorite hunting is a 520 grain .54 caliber mini-ball at about 1200 fps. )

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2004 at 23:40
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I've gotta go with Roy on this one.  And I will throw in the .270, .30-06. .243 and .25-06.  I am a bigger man myself, but I have had my shoulders reconstructed on multiple occassions.  Thus, I do not like recoil.  If you can handle it great, I don't kid myself that I can.  If I absolutely have to I can gut it out for a handful of .375 H&H shots, but I have a lot of nerve damage that inflames really fast.  So, I go with what I know will do the job and I leave the macho magnums to guys who can handle them.  And by the way, if you can handle the magnums, by all means use them all you like.  Unfortuneately, I see too many novices using magnum calibers and wounding a lot more animals then they kill.  Am I ranting again?

 

ranburr

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 01:46
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Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the 30-06 than the 308 .... but i have a soft spot for older things... especially if at over 100 yrs after its inception its still among the top 10 0f its type.... and no one would argue its advantage over the 308 with bullets over 180 grs.

And in terms of recoil, it's days my be numbered.... I went to a match at Los Alamos bout 9 yrs ago and saw a 8 lb. 308 that one of the lab guys had built that was virtually recoil-less ( he had a 20 ga. built the same way).
I thought at the time that within 10 yrs all guns would be built like that. I know I'd have bought one if it shot half way decent.


My experience in the field is that the biggest factor in a clean kill is not the cartrige or the rifle... but rather the execution of the shot.

The best hunter I ever met was an old woman name Mary Price that ran a small motel and guide service (back in the 60's) called "Bufflao Valley Ranch" which sat on the banks of the Snake River in Jackson Hole.

Every year she harvested 2 elk, 2-3 mulies, 2 black bears, and usually 1 moose, with a 25-35 winchester... plus she shot back up for alot of her clients.

She believed in doing more with less....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 01:54
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It seems like ranburr, Dale, Roy and myself all pretty much agree on this topic .... more times than not, less is more... tho I'm sure that there are those of you out there that will scoff and think ".... bunch of old sissys."   

"Youth is wasted on the young, and sometimes wisdom is its conciquence."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 10:05
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Roy, you are correct, that is the point i was trying to make, you absolutely dont need a big boomer to "feel more confident" when hunting deer, rather, you should choose a caliber that you can shoot well. my ideal deer suggestions would be: 243 (regardless of how many people tell you its not powerful enoguh for killing deer, it just goes to show how much they know, i find its perfectly adequate for a white-tail to 400 yards, and antelope to 500), 7mm-08 (perhaps one of the best shoices there are), 270 which would make a perfect deer cartridge to 500-700yds, if you can shoot that far, and a nice gun for caribou, elk, and on the light side for elk). i know they're not in order of caliber, but its what came to my mind first. i beleave everybody needs a 270 in his safe, i have 1 in mine, and will be adding another in the near future. leave the magnums, from the 7 rem mag-300 ultra for caribou at long ranges, elk, and moose. i feel a 338 is over gunned in that department, and should be left for dangerous game, although if i were leaving tomarrow for a grizzly trip, and i have the choice of a 300 ultra, or 388, i would certainly take the 300 ultra, with a box of 180gr scirroco's.\

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 10:06
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Tell the 6 elk(Jackson area), 20 some odd antelope (Rock Springs), 3 moose (Snake River Hoback) and I don't count count anymore 300 lb mulies that the 308 I shot them with didn't work and they can all go home now as soon as they remove their trophies from my library. It is very easy to get 2700 fps out of a 165 gr Hornady with varget. As far as the "window of opportunity" and pratically go set 2 inch low at 100 or on at 250 and the 308 with a duplex at 9X gives a window of about 18 inches, which even if your off 50 yards on range estimation will be a kill shot. (this doesn't even consider those new "fangled" AO which give you the distance when focused).

By the way Mary only shot those critters because they wouldn't stay off the front porch.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 11:26
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Dale...

So you knew Mary?

Then you probably know the story of what (or rather whom) her son shot because it (or they) wouldn't stay off the front pourch?

That whole incident is still campfire talk up in that area to this day.

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the 308 winchester... if I had one you can bet I'd leave the 308 norma home most days...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 17:22
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If you did know her wouldn't you say that she was a pretty cool old gal? She was a great horse woman, a really good shot, and could tie any knot you'd ever heard of.... her cooking on the other hand was another story... LOL
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2004 at 17:30
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Dale,

Since the nomenclature varies from one region to another could you please enlighten me as to what "the window of opportunity" is?   
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