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OK Its time to choose IOR, Zeiss or S&B

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 20:30
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Thanks to your shared knowledge and experience I have narrowed the field to the following.

IOR 4-14x56 Hunting 30mm Rifle Scope……………………………………………………...1000.00

IOR 6-24x50 Hunting 35mm Rifle Scope Free IOR 35mm High Rings………..….1315.00

Zeiss 3-12x56 Victory Diavari 30mm Rifle Scope………………………………………...1500.00

Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50 Variable Hunting 30mm Riflescope……………….…..1680.00

My concern here (believing that you get what you pay for) is in my research it appears that IOR and Zeiss are somewhat equal as far as glass quality. (depending on who you ask)

Does anyone know (FOR SURE) if Schmidt & Bender glass is better or not? For all I know they may all buy lenses from the same place. And if the concensus is that the S&B is hands down the best of my selection, well I'll have to sell something to get the Zeiss or the S&B. I'm not buying for the name but for function. These three have recieved the best of the best for low light conditions so what is left is turret adjustment, durability and best over all value for the money.
If I haven't already tired you out with educating me on the inner workings of a scope, then hopefully you will be willing to share your personal experience with these three brands. And maybe some insight on their lense quality.        Thanks!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 20:47
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IOR and Zeiss use the same lenses at least on paper.  The prisms I don't know about.  S&B does everything in "house."  They do have a second house that is theirs.  The stuff imported to the US is the higher end house. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 00:43
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IOR and Zeiss do not use the same lenses.  Both use glass manufactured by Schott, but that in now way shape or form means that they use the same lenses or even the same raw glass.  IOR and Zeiss have different optical systems that very likely require different glass types.

On top of that they also use different coatings.

All three manufacturers grind their lenses in house (at least for the scopes you are asking about).

Anyhow, as far as optical quality goes, Zeiss and S&B are probably about equal.  IOR is just a touch behind them, though not by much as their glass has been getting better and better.  Keep in mind that everyone's eyes are a little different and with scopes of comparable optical quality, different people may have different conclusions.  A lot depends on the specifics of your eye.

With IOR, I have never played with the 4-14x56 scope, but the 4-14x50 is very good and is the best bang for the buck in this group.  I am guessing the 4-14x56 is a new design since I do not recall seeing it or the HR5 reticle before.

In terms of mechanical reliability and repeatability, all the scopes you mention should work fine (and considering the price point, you should expect no less).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 06:35
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The 4-14x 56, or the 6-24x 50 are both very good scopes. I am not that big of a fan of having the lowest available power at 6x though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 06:52
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+1 on what cyborg said about the lowest power being 6 -
 
i would get the 3-12 diavari if i had the money - if not i would
not feel bad about the IOR 4-16 at all.
 
let us knwo what you decide.
 
J
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 08:06
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FWIW.....A while back there was some discussion about cheek weld and scope objective size.   So I got out my 3-10X50 and did some checking.  I can not put my cheek down as far as I can with the iron sights or what I do when I mount my shotgun.  So, I have decided that 50 is the absolute maximum size of objective I'll use.  I'd go with a Zeiss if money isn't an issue.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 09:26
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If it were me I would go with the IOR 3-18x.  At its lowest setting it will have the same exit pupil as the 4-14x-56. so you are not going to gain any brightness..  And you will have the higher magnification if you want it, and the 3x bottom which is very important in my book to be able to go low. 
I have the 6-24x and I would never choose it over the 3-18x if I were to do it again.  The only reason I bought it in the first place is no 3-18x were available at the time.  The 6-24x is a huge scope, I would not want it on a packing around gun.

One last thought.  You have chosen hunting scopes for all these.  If you are truly going to shoot animals out to 500 to 700 yards how will you make the elevation and windage adjustments with the hunting type turrets?  You will be much better off with target turrets so you can make the proper adjustments and be able to return to your zero.  Just aiming high with a hunting reticle is probably not going to cut it as those types of distances.  I guess with that one IOR scope it has some mils in it, but all the others are just hunting type reticles. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 09:39
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Just so you can see the difference in size between the 3-18x and the 6-24x her is a pick.  The 3-18 is on the front rifle.  Also both of them are using low rings, if you get high on that 6-24x they will be way way to high.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 09:50
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Great looking sticks there Super!!!!!!!Thunbs%20Up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 17:05
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Great looking sticks there Super!!!!!!!Thunbs%20Up
 
Yes, VERY nice, Super!!!!!!!!!
 
+1 on Koshkin's comments.  I have scopes from all 3 manufacturers, and the Zeiss and S&B are neck and neck, with the IOR ever so slightly behind those 2 optically.  Mechanically, you shouldn't have to worry about any of them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 19:53
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OK Supertool,           I'm closing in!          Koshkin,     I'd like your thoughts as well

 

                              And anyone else with real time experience

 

I have amended my list, but before I can make the pick will you offer some details on exit pupil calculations. And according to the specs. the 3-18X 42 has a range of 14 - 2.3 and the 4-14X 56 has a range of 14 - 4.

 

IOR 4-14x50 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope Matte MP-8 ….….24oz.…15L…....…895.00*

IOR 4-14x56 Hunting 30mm Rifle Scope……………………………26oz….14.75L...1000.00*

IOR 3-18x42 Tactical 35mm Rifle………………………………….….22oz….13.5L.....1315.00*

Zeiss 3-12x56 Victory Diavari 30mm Rifle Scope………..……18oz….13.5L.....1500.00*    

 

You also raise another concern I will have to weight in my decision. The target turrets are something that may exclude my preferred choice at the moment.

The 4-14x56. In the past If I bought a scope that didn't have adjustable turrets I would mill a set in my shop. Ofcourse scopes with aftermarket turrets aren't as reliable as a factory set.

Though what I build works very well for me I don't care to need to in this case. If the

IOR 4-14x56 could be found on the tactical side, my decision would likely be made. But I still would like you’re input on exit pupil.               Thanks!

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 20:10
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While exit pupil is important, I would not base my decision on exit pupil alone.

Another factor that makes a difference is your age, since as we get older, our eyes just do not dilate as much.

Aside from that, it all boils down to how much you are willing to spend.

If you can spend $1500 get the Zeiss.  It is an awesome scope.

If you want to stay under $1000, get the IOR 4-14x50 with the new knobs:

http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx


ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 21:18
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Sgt. D,
 
I've been following your scope quest and noticed your latest modified list included the IOR 4-14x50 . I'm assuming at the price of 894.95 it would be the non Illuminated reticle your considering? If that's the case, I'd recommend you get the illuminated reticle  MP-8.
 
I just sent back the IOR 2.5-10x42  because I had trouble seeing the extremely fine MP-8 in low light. I've even taken it a step farther by ordering the FFP reticle (probably a reticle with fine bars) but  with the illumination. I see no problem you couldn't shoot out to 700 -800 yards on 10x, myself. This little scope only weighs 17 onces and can be mounting on medium rings. I reallize that lighting  and objective lens is important to you, but  these scopes with the glass quality and resolution will not be a disappointment.
 
Just remember, if you go with IOR and the MP-8 reticle expect a really fine reticle:)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 22:52
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Koshkin
 
You bring up a valid point about age, I am 46 but I'm about a year out of Lasik surgery (20/18) because I decided that if I returned to one of those sand boxes I would not be wearing glasses again. However that may not matter so help me understand how pupil dialation is a factor if the actual exit measure often times is less than 5mm on the higher powers. You also seem to be well informed about IOR varity. Is there a Tactical 4-14X 56, that would be perfect, or even a Tactical 4-16X 56?
 

Countryscape

You also mentioned something that I wouldn't have known until I had the scope in hand. I haven't needed an illuminated reticle in the past. All my scopes have duplex reticles and have served me well. I did notice there was alot of detail in the MP-8 so if I do get that one I appreciate the tip.

If sales are up between now and July I may get the Zeiss, but odds are I'll be choosing from the 4-14X 50 or the 4-14X 56 so my last question tonite is. If I got the 4-14X 56 with hunting style turret and the MP-8 reticle what amount of range does it cover?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 00:07
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Koshkin,
 
I was just looking over some of the past replies and gained alittle better understanding about exit pupil and lens quality from your notes about bino"s. So giving credit where it is due, seeing that you have very indepth knowledge concerning optics.
 
1. Do you look at what lens coatings are used on particular scopes you may be interested in?
2. If so how do you get that specific info?
3. Do alot of these companies provide such info upon request?
4. Most high end scopes boast diamond coated lenses but obviously there is a varity. Will you elaboratre on what to look for?
5. Do you think that lens size, quality and coating is primarily what effects cost of any given scope?
6. Do you know of anyone or any company that will custom build or custom alter a scope?
 
Giving respect to your point that tube size doesn't effect light transmission. Why do the scope companies advertise that it does? Here is an example:
 

The 3-18x42 is the latest in IOR's new line of tactical scopes with an ultra-flexible 6:1 mgnification ratio. Whether the situation requires a wide field of view for observation and close engagement or high magnification for long-range precision, the 3-18x42 delivers.

The 3-18x42 retains many of the proven features of its predecessors including a side focus, finger-adjustable turrets, illuminated MP-8 reticle and a large ocular for generous eye-relief. It also follows IOR's trend towards the 35mm body which excells in light transmission at higher magnification, and each scope is supplied with a set of 35mm heavy duty tactical rings in the user's choice of height for almost any application. Also supplied are turret caps and lens covers.

 
Thanks!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 01:09
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I'll try to answer these one at a time.

1, 2 and 3. Specifics of the coatings used are fairly closely guarded secrets.  Either way, I do not particularly care how the coatings are made, I only care how well they work.  I have specifically measured the performance of the coatings of quite a few scopes by taking them to work where I have a lot of the equipment needed for this kind of stuff.  By and large though, you get an idea of the quality of the coatings by comparing the scopes.  I look at a few dozen scopes and binoculars per year, so I feel I have a reasonable idea of how they compare.

4.   I am not aware of any company using Diamonds for coatings.  If you are referring to Leupold's Diamond Coat, it is just a  particular name they decided to use.  There are no diamond involved in any way shape or form.

5.  That is a big part of the cost.  Design/R&D expenses and mechanical quality are another.

6. US Optics build essentially custom scopes that are of very good quality, but expensive.

The quote you have there (in bold) about thicker tube effecting light transmission is flat out wrong.  Larger tube may allow you to use larger lenses which can help resolution and contrast.  That can increase perceived brightness, but the actual light transmission has nothing to do with that.

ILya

Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Koshkin,
 
I was just looking over some of the past replies and gained alittle better understanding about exit pupil and lens quality from your notes about bino"s. So giving credit where it is due, seeing that you have very indepth knowledge concerning optics.
 
1. Do you look at what lens coatings are used on particular scopes you may be interested in?
2. If so how do you get that specific info?
3. Do alot of these companies provide such info upon request?
4. Most high end scopes boast diamond coated lenses but obviously there is a varity. Will you elaboratre on what to look for?
5. Do you think that lens size, quality and coating is primarily what effects cost of any given scope?
6. Do you know of anyone or any company that will custom build or custom alter a scope?
 
Giving respect to your point that tube size doesn't effect light transmission. Why do the scope companies advertise that it does? Here is an example:
 

The 3-18x42 is the latest in IOR's new line of tactical scopes with an ultra-flexible 6:1 mgnification ratio. Whether the situation requires a wide field of view for observation and close engagement or high magnification for long-range precision, the 3-18x42 delivers.

The 3-18x42 retains many of the proven features of its predecessors including a side focus, finger-adjustable turrets, illuminated MP-8 reticle and a large ocular for generous eye-relief. It also follows IOR's trend towards the 35mm body which excells in light transmission at higher magnification, and each scope is supplied with a set of 35mm heavy duty tactical rings in the user's choice of height for almost any application. Also supplied are turret caps and lens covers.

 
Thanks!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 04:03
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Sgt D,

I know a guy on another forum who is selling the Zeiss scope you are looking at for $950 if you are interested. I could get his info for you. I was thinking of maybe picking it up. I've had one of the SnipersHide IOR's on order and they were supposed to come in last November! Still no scope.....may have to look elsewhere.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 14:26
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Zeiss 3-12x56  Diavari is available in the Zeiss Classic line and the Victory line of scopes. Victory is the top of the line and I would go with that one. I believe the forum user who has a Zeiss 3-12x56 Diavari for sale, is the Classic model
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 18:54
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Thanks for you input,
 
I really wish IOR had the 4-14X 56 on the tactical side because that would likely be my chioce. But since it isn't I had concluded that I would go with the 4-14X 50 and be happy that I hadn't spent quite so much money. Then I went to the US Optics site and found that I could get really close to what I want. But as you already know it will cost me.
Or maybe not, Now I'm back to ask who has experience with US Optics and IOR?
Are the US Optics lenses up to IOR quality? Is the scope as good or better?
The set up I am looking at is the SN3 3.2-17X 58 with the 35mm tube. According to what I have learned this power range better suits my intentions. But at 2000.00 I'll be putting some things up for sell if I go that route.
 
Don't hold back on your knowledge, this is a big deal and I need to make a good long term decision. Thanks!!
 
BSA I noticed at the bottom of the page about the Bronze Star down grade. From what I saw in Iraq all medals have been down graded. It is sad to say because there are many out there who have the various medals of Honor, Service and Courage who absloutely deserve them and probably far more than what they got. BUT I saw so many officers and E-7's and up bragging about their end of tour Bronze Stars and this and that. We hadn't been there but a month with this foolishness going on. I had soldiers who served beyond the call and many times saved these low lifes butts and got no acknowledgement. I watched the recommendations  that I submitted for these soldiers be (he thought unnoticed) dropped in the trash. I didn't tell the soldiers, morale was low enough. But they expected the nothing they got. Besides we didn't go to get medals and when at the departure ceremony we witnessed the disgrace and dishonor, well offering any of us a medal at that time would not have been appreciated. We even saw a Lt. Col lie to get himself a Purple Heart.
Woah! I see I've been venting. Sore subject.
 
Lets just focus on scopes right now, and pray for the soldiers before we sleep.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 19:04
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US Optics glass is very good, although it used to be a "hit and miss" proposition in the past.  In terms of optical quality, I think IOR is a bit more consistent.  USO's best glass is a little better than IOR, their less successful batches are not as good as IOR.  It just depends on your luck.

Mechanically, USO seems to be very good.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 19:33
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You are really shooting for a huge objective on your scope choices.Big%20Smile  I hope the rifle you are getting has a built in cheek height adjustment cause with a big bell like that it is going to make the scope very high.  I personally would never buy a scope with larger that 50mm for just that reason, sure they may give you a little more light, but if you need more just turn the power down.  Low light shooting doesn't work to well on higher powers anyway that is one spot where 2 and 3x will really shine is in the low light.  I am a 42mm or smaller man myself.  I like the scopes to be low so I can get more consistency from shot to shot with how I mount the rifle to my body.  If you scope is super high and you don't have a good cheek piece to get a good weld your head is just kind of bobbling and you will have a hard time getting the exact same sight picture each time.  Which will in turn affect your POI down range. 
So anyway, I am not saying don't get the big bell just make sure your rifle is built to allow you to use it properly. 
As far as the IOR glass, I can guarantee you will love it.  I have never heard anyone complain about IOR glass.  They really are nice scopes, and for the price range they are in it is pretty tough to beat them in my opinion. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/27/2008 at 06:32
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I concur, You will fall head over heels in love with the glass and the reticle. I don't go over 50 mm on my objectives either.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2008 at 18:08
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Sgt D,
I am the one with the Bronze Star comment....From what I was told by our rediness NCO each unit has a certain number of certain medals they can hand out, don't know how true that is. They hand BSM's out like candy to higher ranking individuals! This is the only conflict I know of where people get BSM's for just waking up in the morning!!!! The NCO that put ours in slipped himself one(he was a desk jocky and NEVER LEFT THE WIRE). Not to brag but I ragged on them cause I'm the only one who earned one in the line of duty....w/"V", but that is a whole other story....the handgrenade is the best weapon ever invented!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/28/2008 at 18:08
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PS- still no IOR!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2008 at 07:15
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

I concur, You will fall head over heels in love with the glass and the reticle. I don't go over 50 mm on my objectives either.


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