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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 09:38
ahuebel View Drop Down
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I know this is an optics forum but many of you seem to know quite a bit about guns. I do not know much about guns but I found this website that lists different calibers and what games they are appropriate for. http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm

 

I am looking to purchase a gun and scope and I want to get something versatile. My question is, what impact does the grain of the bullet have? From the little I know I would guess that it simply increases bullet velocity allowing you to shoot the same game at longer distances. It would be nice if I could get a gun that would perform closer to my current gun, (which I love) a .243 Browning A-bolt with a sako action, but perhaps allowing me to change bullets (or grain if that makes a difference) and hunt elk, should I be so lucky. I already have an idea of the scope I want for it thanks to people here on OT.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 09:56
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this is right up my alley, when you look at a bullet, you of course need to be aware of caliber,(diameter of your bullet) and maybe more importantly than the weight of the bullet, what its made of, when you talk about bullet weight obviously the heavier the bullet the more foot pounds of energy you can apply to an animal, but to make the increase in weight worth it you must add speed to the equation, i.e if you have say 85 grain .243 bullet that say travels 3300 ft per second and it produces say 1700 foot pounds of energy @ 100 yds, if you take a 100 grain bullet from that same .243 and push it to that same 3300 ft per second you speed is the same for both bullets but the energy value with the 100 grain bullet of course will be greater. now to mention the other end of the bullet selection, you must first decide what the main use of your bullet is, i shoot white tail deer so a regular sierra spitzer bullet works just fine for me. i noticed you mentioned elk, and shooting an elk with a .243 is possible, but in my opinion you must be sure you can dispatch of the elk in a one shot mannor, which requires getting very close and lots of practice at the range. when i go after bigger animals i try to match the type of bullet i use to the type of game i am after, the tougher the animal the tougher your bullet needs to be. as far as you wanting to buy something close in performance to your .243 do you have any objection to going up in caliber size at all?? in you your case you want versatility, i like .25 caliber rifles, i think rounds like the 25-06 and 25 winchester super short magnum are acceptable for elk as well as deer and even varmint hunting, and the felt recoil is very similar to you .243. read it over and absolutly ask me more questions i live to talk about guns with people who are intrested in getting new guns.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:02
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Ok...thanks for the reply. Perhaps we can talk via PM or e-mail if necessary (if it gets too lengthy). I am expecting to go up in caliber. I just talked to a gun company here in Texas and they recommended a 7mm Rem mag. While I can get a lower grain bullet for that, it still seems like it would be on the upper end of what I want (power and recoil wise).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:19
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i will send a pm and then we can talk
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:39
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i would actually entertain the chance to talk about guns to anyone in here!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:43
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Chuck Hawks website gets alot of bad raps, but is actually very informative.  I have interacted with him on multiple occaisions by e-mail and he is a very knowledgeable individual.  He swears he does not accept money from any of his advertisers and by his review of the Tikka T3, I really do not think he does.  His review was similar to mine, in that he did not like the cut out for the cartridge ejection as opposed to an action forged out of one piece of metal.  The difference with my review is that it was positive and his was negative.  Two different slants.  But, I could still understand his reasonings.  Good post by pyro6999.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:50
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7mm Mag is a great caliber and very versatile.  It is more than you need.  I'd consider the .260 Rem.  Recoil isn't much more than your .243 but you can go up to 140gr bullets.  Plenty of gun for elk up to 300 yards if you use a good bullet such as Nosler Partition.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:53
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i agree with you yates, the .260 is a great choice and was what i was going to recommend, although the 270 wsm isnt a bad choice either but i dont know how the recoil is on this round, i do know how it is on the 300 wsm and i know that there is a significant increase in recoil as compared to a .243, but the 270 wsm is so damn flat shooting its really impressive to me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:56
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Wow...quite a bit of interest here on guns. Pyro I wrote you a PM before I saw others posted here.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 10:59
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i would actually entertain the chance to talk about guns to anyone in here!

Same here!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 13:53
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Since others are also interested in discussing guns, I thought I'd post some of the things I shared with pyro in a PM. Basically I plan to make this gun a lifetime purchase to be used as my primary hunting weapon. While the vast majority of my hunting is white tail and ferral hog, I would like to have the ability to hunt elk. Pyro mentioned calibers such as a 25 win short mag or 6.5 rem mag. From the little I have looked, it appears that not all guns come in these each caliber. For example, the sako 85 hunter I believe does not come in a 7mm rem mag, but does come in a 7mm short mag, whereas the sako 75 hunter does come in the 7mm rem mag. Of the limited number of guns I have looked at, I like the sako 75 and sako 85 hunter.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 14:55
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I would just like to point out, take anything Chuck Hawks says with a grain of salt.  There has never been a product that he didn't like as long as you pay him enough money.

 

ranburr

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 15:02
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Ahuebel I realy like the rought you are on for your rifle purchase:Sako=worth every penny:WSM's=The real deal,accuracy,minimized recoil,flat tragectory and power.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 15:04
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Not many rounds as versatile as the good ole 30-06!  I use 125 grains for coyotes, 150-165 for whitetails and 180 for Elk.  You can buy them anywhere and at a decent price (have you seen the $$ for the WSM?) and reloading info is easy to find!  And just about every gunmaker has a gun chambered for it.

 

I'm no expert, but I think the .270 is marginal for Elk and anything below is out of the question!  Let me explain a little.  If you live in Elk country and can hunt many days, then getting close enough for a .260 size round is doable.  But most folks don't get a chance to hunt like that.  A lot of Elk hunters get one chance at a trophy and decide to take a shot they really shouldn't.  If you have a smallish round, that just makes it worse!

 

edit=typo



Edited by Tip69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 15:07
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.25 calibers are good for deer and antelope but you are limited to relatively light bullets.  The .260 has a real advantage there.  The heavier .264's have very high sectional density and "kill stuff deader than you'd think they ought to".
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 15:11
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i dont know i have seen bull moose go down with one well placed  .243, the old saying no replacement for shot placement, although on elk i agree i like to carry at least my 25 wssm with a 120 grain bullet and i just got my 6.5 remington mag and am very excited to see how it performs
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 16:21
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if i'm not mistaken,  which i have been before,  some states require the use of a .270 caliber or larger for elk.  if you are worried about recoil,  you said you have a browning that you love,  which is available with a boss,  which acts as a muzzle brake.  my buddy has a 7mm magnum with the boss,  and it is an awesome shooting gun.  also trigger can be lightened with timney springs on an a-bolt for about $15.  some people don't like brownings,   but i love my a-bolts. the 7mm magnum also can be gotten in factory loads at as little as 140 grains.

Edited by fwinn
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 16:23
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i want to know which states require that??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 17:08
Tip69 View Drop Down
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I thought the same thing regarding minimum caliber........ so I looked at Nebraska's and its states:

Legal Weapons: Rifles .26 cal. or larger which fire a 100-grain or larger bullet delivering at least 2,000 foot pounds of bullet energy at 100 yards;

 

I still wouldn't use anything smaller than the 7mm  for Elk.  But you still can't beat the -06 for an all-around choice.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 18:23
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that is correct
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 19:04
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ahuebel,

If elk hunting is going to be the primary use, I'd highly recommend you consider a stainless rifle with synthetic stock, for a couple reasons.  First, elk hunting is tough on equipment with all the climbing up and down steep terrain, and a wood-stocked rifle can take a severe beating and look bad in short order.  Second, it snows frequently in high-altitude elk country, and stainless resists rust better, and synthetic stocks don't swell and warp when wet like wood can, which can alter your point of impact in the middle of a hunt.  Just overall less maintenance and worry involved with a stainless/synthetic rifle in that environment.  For deer and hogs out of a treestand or covered blind, this may be less of a worry.  The romantic inside me prefers the look and feel of beautiful wood, but sometimes I have to make concessions for practicality's sake.  This doesn't mean a wood stocked, blued rifle is necessarily a bad choice, it's just in wet, rugged environments you might have to baby it more if you want to keep it looking good.

 

The Sako 75/85 is a very nice rifle.  I have two 75s and one of the things I really like about it is its smooth feeding.  This perceived smoothness varies a little bit with the shape of cartridge the rifle's chambered for, but with both of mine, I sometimes have to open the bolt again to verify I actually chambered a round, it's so smooth.  Sako triggers are very good hunting triggers as well, and can be adjusted to a nice, crisp, light (for hunting) pull.  So far, I've found them to be pretty accurate on average, though there are always exceptions with any model hunting rifle.  I generally prefer a more straight, "classic" style stock, but the Sako stock design feels good to me, and I like its lines.

 

Truth be told, any of the well-known manufacturers bolt actions will serve you well as a big game hunting rifle, so it really boils down to what feels best to you and fits in your budget.  Like all shooters, I have my own preferences which I won't go into.  I can tell you that, on average, a bolt action will give you greater accuracy potential, is safer,  simpler and therefore potentially more reliable than other action types, though most any action type will work fine for big game at most reasonable ranges, provided the rifle is chambered in an appropriate caliber for the intended game.  I agree the various 7mm Mags and .30-06 are sensible "all-around" choices that don't produce excessive recoil for most shooters.  One of the advantages of the -06 and at least the standard 7mm REM mag is the fact that, if you don't plan to handload, no matter where you go, even remote stores that carry ammo will almost always have ammo for either.  If you can handle a little more recoil, the various .300 magnums are also an excellent choice, and will be a bit more versatile on N. American game at the larger end of the scale.  Ditto for the .338 mag, but for many folks, its recoil starts becoming a little objectionable.

 

Good luck with your search, and keep us posted on what you decide.  Remember, Man Law clearly states that anything inherently cool needs no additional justification to purchase, and guns definitely fit that category! 



Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 19:06
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Originally posted by ranburr ranburr wrote:

I would just like to point out, take anything Chuck Hawks says with a grain of salt.  There has never been a product that he didn't like as long as you pay him enough money.

 

ranburr

 

As I mentioned on another thread, Chuck has is a very knowledgeable individual.  I have communicted with him on multiple occasions by e-mail and he swears he does not take any money from his advertisers.  Read his review on the Tikka T3 rifle and you may see what I mean.  My review was similar, except that I came away with a positive outlook.  His major grip as was mine, was the cheap cut out for the ejection port, that is small and makes it difficult to remove a shell with your fingers, if you did not use enough force to eject if fully.  This is as opposed to a fully forged action from one piece of steel.  He also, if I remember carefully, that the wooden stock on the Hunter model was rather cheap, which I also commented on.  But overall, the rifle had a smooth as silk action and was accurate and light weight and my review was overall positive, but not equal to my belove Wby. Vanguard, only by a slight margin.  His was negative and I can understand his reasons, but quite harsh.  His other ifno on his site is reasonably accurate and well organized.  But, it is not the tell all, know all site.  There are many others.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 19:22
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i'm sure smaller calibers can kill and elk but you had better really place the bullet in the exact spot to do it, does not leave very much margin of error.

 

The 7MM is a good all around choice flat shooting packs a good punch but for some it is definitly a step up in recoil. 

 

I would have to say keep it simple. There is all kinds of wizz bag uber cartridges on the market and more freezers are packed and mounts put on the wall every year with the good old .30/.06 it's been getting the job done from rabbits to bear every year for the last 100 years. It's .30 caliber and perhaps the most common at that. You can get bullets in light weight down to a 120 gr (maybe even lower) all the way up to a 220 gr that is some versitility. Plus you can walk into any gun store, drug store or any place that sells ammo and I know they will have .30.06 that may not be the case for some of the short mags, or .25 caliber guns out there.

 

My second choice would be the .270 Winchester (not short mag) standard. Still pretty common and is basically a .30.06 necked down with a .27 caliber bullet on top instead of the .30 cal. You can get lighter bullets since it is a smaller caliber but on the down side you can't get as big (heavy) of bullets as a .30/06.

 

If I was going to be doing a lot of Elk hunting I might step up to one of the various .30 caliber magnums. A .338 is a great choice but the larger .338 is not as versital as a .30 for smaller game. I have a friend that uses a .300 Ulta Mag and it will pretty much take anything walking on this side of the planet and while it dishes out some pretty impressive speed and muzzle energy the down side is it rocks pretty good in the recoil department. 

 

Again I think it is pretty hard to top the .30.06 recoil while more then a .243 is not bad and the average shooter can get pretty proficient with it. There is all kids of loads for this round. It's about the most common hunting cartridge in North America and for good reason.

 

Happy Shooting

AC

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 20:40
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i am not a fan of the 270 dont ask me why, i love 30 cal. you have a huge range of weight of bullets to choose from but some people dont care for the recoil, i prefer the 280 to to the 270, i dont forsee myself ever owning a 270 i have bought a 6.5 rem mag and i would love to own a 280, i have a 30-06 300 win and 300wsm they are work but the later two can be a little bit rude on the bench.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 21:43
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There's lots of knowledge in this thread and certainly no shortage of opinions.  First, if you are going to be considering an UltraMag, SAUM, WSM or to a certain extent, Weatherby Mag, be aware that some places may have a limited selection of ammo.  This is not important unless you are 20 minutes from your elk camp and remember you left your ammo in the trunk of your car-at the airport.  You may be okay but you may also may find there aren't as many ammo offerings as you had at home.

 

Next, an elk is a big animal.  To do it justice, which is a quick, humane kill, you want all the gun you can manage.  Many guys use the .30-06 recoil as the upper limit of what an average shooter can handle.  You need to be aware that a bigger gun with a bigger bore shooting a bigger bullet will offer a better than average chance of crossing your eyes when you touch off a round.  You don't want to flinch at ths shot when a bull in filling up your scope.  

 

 So, evaluate several calibers & see if you can shoot some that may appeal to you.  This will help you in your decision.  If the recoil feels like the fist of God on your shoulder when the gun goes off, you may want to keep looking, if that bothers you.  For elk, I wouldn't recommend anything less than 7mm bore.  7MM Rem. Mag, .280 Rerm are two good ones.  In 30 caliber, the .30-06 is still popular because it still works.  The 300 Win Mag is also a good one.  Above that, the .338 Win Mag is a lot of rifle, with a lot of recoil and noise when fired.

 

If you are going to hunt whitetails, the .260 Rem. is a wonderful caliber, as is the 7MM-08 Rem. and .308 Win.  The good news to all this is that after you buy your first rifle, you will begin to want to investigate additional calibers and before you know it, you'll have several in your safe-just like the rest of us.  Welcome to the club.

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