OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Scopes > Rifle Scopes
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Nitrogen vs Argon filled?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

Nitrogen vs Argon filled?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
1911man View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: May/17/2009
Location: NW AR
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1911man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nitrogen vs Argon filled?
    Posted: May/19/2009 at 08:50
Any real advantages to Argon or is this just marketing hype?
Bill Wilson
www.wilsoncombat.com
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 09:00
depends on the purity of the source, advertisements leads consumer to believe either would be put in scope in pure form, more than likely some commerical grade from a local source would be used. Physically argon is heavier than nitrogen so in theory at least would require more energy to accomplish the same per mole ratio of diffusion.
Back to Top
3_tens View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2007
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 09:08
Argon is a Noble gas and is stable. It will not bond with other elements like oxygen. (oxidize) Argon will not be a causing factor for corrosion.
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.
Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 09:19

the activation energy necessary to get nitrogen to bond to oxygen in a scope will never happen.  If this were a viable alternative , we would all be dead due to the high concentrations of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere.

Back to Top
silver View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master


Joined: November/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2291
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 09:21
Put enough voltage on it and it makes pretty colors. Most of the differance is on paper.  I have not priced these gases. My guess is that somebody is getting a good deal on Argon.  LN is damn cold to handle and there may be safety issues that improve with argon.  As long as the gas is clear and inert you should be fine.
"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

WWW.formitch.com

Back to Top
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 09:23

argon is side product from the manufacture of oxygen and nitrogen, which is going to be made anyway, so its cost while more than N2 is much lower than other noble gases, neon, krypton etc.

Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6070
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 09:53

And Kryptonite will cause the bullet to drop at your feet!

Back to Top
3_tens View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2007
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 14:04
 Nitrogen and Oxygen will bond at ambient temps when water is present forming nitrates. No high temp is needed. I was not talking explosive oxygenation but corrosive oxygenation when moisture is introduced. Also Not all Nitrogen generation plants produce Argon as a side gas, nor do they need extreme temperatures. They can be relatively small package units.
 8's does this mean that if a Kahles or Leupold scope is used the bullets drop at your feet since they are filled or partially filled with Krypton gas??? Loco
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.
Back to Top
Sandracer View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: January/11/2009
Location: Eastern Oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandracer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 14:43
Originally posted by 1911man 1911man wrote:

Any real advantages to Argon or is this just marketing hype?
 
Yes!Bucky
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Online
Points: 20256
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 18:13
Argon is inert, Nitrogen just doesn't bond with anything very well.  Argon has more resistance to extreme rapid temperature changes and over the LONG haul will allow no - extremely little moisture vs extremely little - very little.  Argon is cheaper to separate than krypton, but relatively the same in performance, for this case.  Generally, if krypton is "added" to the mix, it is because it separated as a byproduct and was just "there".
Argon/krypton rather than nitrogen is used in some of the systems I test due to the fact that it is not subject to very rapid temperature changes.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 12427
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2009 at 19:21
In practical terms, you will not see any difference between Argon Purged and Nitrogen purged scopes.

It does make for some very important sounding advertisement, but that is largely it.

While atomic argon is appreciably more inert than atomic nitrogen, that is thoroughly unimportant.  Gaseous nitrogen is a diatomic molecule, while argon is mono-atomic.  N2 molecule is almost as heavy as a single argon atom and is much larger in physical size.

Cost-wise, while nitrogen is appreciably cheaper, neither should have any noticeable effect on scope price.

ILya


Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6070
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2009 at 02:21
Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

 .
 8's does this mean that if a Kahles or Leupold scope is used the bullets drop at your feet since they are filled or partially filled with Krypton gas??? Loco
 
I am afraid so. It is clearly stated in the handbook for kryptonite!
 
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Online
Points: 20256
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2009 at 10:39
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

In practical terms, you will not see any difference between Argon Purged and Nitrogen purged scopes.

It does make for some very important sounding advertisement, but that is largely it.

While atomic argon is appreciably more inert than atomic nitrogen, that is thoroughly unimportant.  Gaseous nitrogen is a diatomic molecule, while argon is mono-atomic.  N2 molecule is almost as heavy as a single argon atom and is much larger in physical size.

Cost-wise, while nitrogen is appreciably cheaper, neither should have any noticeable effect on scope price.

ILya


What ILya said was that you are probably not going to launch any scopes which will experience very high velocities and therefore potential rapid extreme temperature changes negating any utility to argon/krypton purging over nitrogen purging, which is absolutely correct. 
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Al Nyhus View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: March/08/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 127
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Nyhus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2009 at 12:35
      The whole mystique of scopes being filled with argon, nitrogen, helium, unobtanium, etc. is something that always brings a smile to my face.
 
     The reality is that as long as the scopes is assembled in a minimum humidity environment,  just plain old room atmosphere does as good a job as any 'trick' fill.  The scopes are filled something when they're assembled at the plant, but just exactly how long do you think that lasts? A quick look at a scopes construction will tell you.... it's not long. Big Grin
 
   I use several scopes that have long since tooted their atmosphere out and all still perform w/o fogging....in temps from -10 to 100+  and humidity ranges from 30 to over 90 percent.
 
    Makes for good marketing, though. Wink


Edited by Al Nyhus - May/20/2009 at 16:08
"Marsupials scare me".
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Online
Points: 20256
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2009 at 13:09
Al, do you only hunt in broad daylight, not bothering with the "temperature transition" times?    Emoticons
I have, in fact, experienced fogging due to temperature change, even with "purged" optics and have seen the utility, under proper conditions of moisture, of Rainguard treated (not addressed here, really, but just thought I would throw it in for fun) lenses.  There is also a decrease in corrosion of internal parts (at least those not made of plastic) in purged scopes (however, that is only a problem over LONG periods of time...generally).  They all have a use.  The big point is the differential between argon/krypton purged scopes vs nitrogen purged.  For most common usages, there is no utility to noble gases over nitrogen, other than perhaps an extended period of corrosion protection.  That all assumes that seals remain intact and the gas remains in the scope body.   However, seepage can be corrected.  There are places which will "repurge" a depleted scope and refurbish seals.  Is it a marketing device... of course it is.  Is it, in fact, useful... depends.  I only have a couple of scopes I've kept long enough for it to be an issue.  In one, there is a noticeable degradation of visual quality with a tendency for fogging in fairly rapid temperature change conditions, and I KNOW it has leaked.  The other appears to be maintaining integrity and is as clear and unaffected by the external atmosphere as I can expect.  I may actually try to get it checked and repurged/resealed at some time. 
Of course, I know people who have hunted for many years with one scope and never experienced fogging, as you have not.  That does, however, not mean others have not experienced the converse. 
 
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
3_tens View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2007
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2009 at 15:13
Argon and Krypton have much higher specific gravity so would give a much faster and more complete purge when floating the contaminants out of the scope. That makes them a better,very stable, gas to use.
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.
Back to Top
Al Nyhus View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: March/08/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 127
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Nyhus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 08:09
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Al, do you only hunt in broad daylight, not bothering with the "temperature transition" times?    Emoticons
 
   'Mornin'.
 
      Not sure what you mean about "broad daylight" hunting? I just go when it's time to go.  Wink  As to "temperature transition"  times, I take a similarly simple approach to it by not considering it at all.  I do make a concession with my Winter predator rifles by not bringing them into a really warm area after hunting in cold weather....more for condensation on the rest of the gun that any optical considerations, though.
 
    I'm not poo-pooing scopes being purged at the factory. But as long as some sort of dry atmosphere is introduced,  I'm not convinced it makes any difference what it is. And the 'purged state' of a scope is not a forever thing. Seals leak due to age, we move the occular in and out on threads that are certainly not air tight (despite whatever sealing method is used), we move objective lenses with similar threads or via a side mounted turret (with seals) there's expansion/contraction due to heat and cold, etc. 
 
     As long as we don't have some sort of massive sealing issue, these things just keep on working for the most part.
 
     Good shootin'. Smile   -Al
 
   
 
    
 
  
"Marsupials scare me".
Back to Top
rifle looney View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: November/21/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2553
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rifle looney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 09:08
I have a pair of bino's that I dropped and cracked the housing surely they leaked what ever they were purged with, and I have seen no faults as of yet and they have been in temps from 13 degrees up to the high 60's on one hunting trip? snow and rain.  Excellent
Back to Top
Ed Connelly View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
God of no Chihuahua

Joined: December/16/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 24225
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Connelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 09:17
This makes me feel good all over about hunting with a forty year old Weaver scope.........
 
Be sure to visit,

THE ED SHOW

Ju Cucarachas!!!
Back to Top
huff143 View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: December/08/2008
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 304
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huff143 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 10:16
How does the actual molecular mass differ between argon and nitrogen?  Surely if a scope is properly sealed to hold one it will hold the other.  But, are argon molecules larger than nitrogen?
Back to Top
Roy Finn View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Steiner Junkie

Joined: April/05/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4856
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 10:49
I may be wrong but my understanding is that no matter what type of gas is used it's sole purpose is to eliminate any moisture as it is assembled from the factory. I'm not sure that whatever type is used actually stops fogging in itself. So in my way of thinking it really shouldn't matter whether nitrogen or argon is used so long as the process eliminates any moisture at the assembly process. I do, however applaud Leupold for tying something new to help the problem of internal fogging regardless of whether it is significantly better than the old standby of plain old nitrogen. One of the things I do that I think helps when hunting in extremely cold temps is to keep my rifles and bino's outside in a vehicle which I think that what Leupold is referring to when they advertise "thermal shock" meaning taking your scopes and bino's from a warm hunting camp directly into extremely cold temps. I think that this helps more so than whatever type of gas that is used to seal the optic.

Edited by Roy Finn - May/25/2009 at 10:59
Back to Top
Ed Connelly View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
God of no Chihuahua

Joined: December/16/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 24225
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Connelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 11:01
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

I may be wrong but my understanding is that no matter what type of gas is used it's sole purpose is to eliminate any moisture as it is assembled from the factory. I'm not sure that whatever type is used actually stops fogging in itself. So in my way of thinking it really shouldn't matter whether nitrogen or argon is used so long as the process eliminates any moisture at the assembly process. I do, however applaud Leupold for tying something new to help the problem of internal fogging regardless of whether it is significantly better than the old standby of plain old nitrogen. One of the things I do that I think helps when hunting in extremely cold temps is to keep my rifles and bino's outside in a vehicle which I think that what Leupold is referring to when they advertise "thermal shock" meaning taking your scopes and bino's from a warm hunting camp directly into extremely cold temps. I think that this helps more so than whatever type of gas that is used to seal the optic.
 
Exactly!!!                Me, too..........Big Grin
Be sure to visit,

THE ED SHOW

Ju Cucarachas!!!
Back to Top
Tip69 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
Tip Stick

Joined: September/27/2005
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 3800
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 11:12

hope no-one knows your addresses!   I found out the hard way, leaving expensive guns outside is a good way to lose them, weather they are in a locked vehicle or not!

take em!
Back to Top
tahqua View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Have You Driven A Ford Lately?

Joined: March/27/2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8529
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 11:14
Originally posted by huff143 huff143 wrote:

  But, are argon molecules larger than nitrogen?


Argon is an element and compared to elemental nitrogen, has almost three times the atomic mass. Argon also has one more electron shell and as already mentioned, is inert and non-reactive.
Nitrogen is very reactive and this may be the reason for argon purging. Other than that, I am clueless on the reason.
I also applaud Leupold for using Argon.

Back to Top
tahqua View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Have You Driven A Ford Lately?

Joined: March/27/2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8529
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2009 at 11:20
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

hope no-one knows your addresses!   I found out the hard way, leaving expensive guns outside is a good way to lose them, weather they are in a locked vehicle or not!



I keep mine outside in extreme cold, too. This is for both the optics and the "high tech" lubricants. If argon helps in this regard for optics, I'm all for it. I would like to see actual experience with it.
I would never leave a gun in my car in downtown Detroit. I digress, though.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.266 seconds.