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Nikon P-223 seriesquestion + Alternatives

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2012 at 12:16
Grant View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: December/25/2010
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   I had a couple questions.
 
First about the new Nikon P-223 series.
 
 
    I had two questions:
 #1.  Does anyone here know whether these scopes are still made in the Phillipines or are they Chinese made?    The prices I've seen to pre-order them around seem a wee cheaper than even the Prostaff's
 
  Secondly, does SWFA have any plans to carry them, how soon might you get it?     The fixed 3X looks to be ideal for my AK project (Only 8.1" long and 3.5" eye relief, less than the normal 3.75-4") I have going and I'd like to get one almost as soon as they're out.    
 
 
Alternatively, I am looking for a scope that would work on one of my AK rifles.    I am making one up to be a "mini DMR" style, for use out to 350-400 yards.     
 
  Right now all my AK's wear 1-4X scopes with German #4 reticles.   Not bad for rough shooting out to 250, but past that I need some kind of referance point/hash mark/dot to keep stuff consistant.    7.62X39 drops like a rock past 250 and there's alot of diferant in drop between 275 yards and 325 yards Big Smile       And yes, they are accurate enough for the role Wink   Not as good as my AR or M14S, but suitable out to 400 as long as I do my part.
 
   Keeping the relatively compactness of the AK in mind, I am looking for a rugged, compact optic with mil-dots, or ballistic reticles.        Also, the shorter eye relief, the better. 
 
 The only compact scopes I see, fixed power 4X or 6X scopes with mil dots, ballistic plexes/etc. seem to be the cheaper, low end scopes like Barska, Sightmark,etc.etc.   And while okay "range" scopes, I'm wanting something a bit tougher.           At one time I went with anything cheap, but I'm becoming a "middle range scope snob", no $800 scopes for me, but I am spoiled by Nikon Monarchs and Bushnell Elites, neither of which however is suitably small for an AK.   
 
    All I've really seen aside from the upcoming Nikon is the Weaver Kaspa 1.5-6X32.   And I'm leery of it as it's a chinese made scope, for the price, I'm assuming of mediocre quality.
 
Any other suggestions would be appreciated! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2012 at 18:13
KAG View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: January/11/2010
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I am also interested in this. Been search for a compact scope for predator hunting and this might be something I am interested in. The turrets on it I could live without.....everything has to have tactical turrets now days. They do not lock either.

I do like the new P series mounts that they are pushing with these. If these scope even remotely turn a profit we should see other optics makers follow suit.....and maybe make something better quality but Not break the bank.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2012 at 23:07
Grant View Drop Down
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Optics GrassHopper


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   I definately agree about the stupid turrets.

"Oooh look. tacti-turrets. it MUST be awesome".   Loco   I'd rather have a covered turret, especially a scope like isn't going to be dialed all the time.       Truthfully, unless it's a target or long range scope, those turrets are nothing but a taller strap-catcher and crosshair adjuster. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2012 at 05:51
atp View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: May/23/2008
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Points: 47
Originally posted by Grant Grant wrote:

Right now all my AK's wear 1-4X scopes with German #4 reticles. Not bad for rough shooting out to 250, but past that I need some kind of referance point/hash mark/dot to keep stuff consistant.

Grant, what scope do you currently have on your AKs, the Nikon 1-4x20 Monarch African 1", part #8446? And how do you have it mounted?

I plan to set up an AK with a Weaver 1-3x ($145) on the TWS Dogleg Gen2 Scope Rail ($122 at Brownells). Since the Weaver 1-3x is only 9.2" long with 3.2" eye relief, I'm sure it will fit nicely on the TWS top cover without impeding opening it up for easy disassembly of the AK. Since the Nikon 1-4x20 is 10.4" long with 4" eye relief, I'm not sure whether it will fit properly on the TWS rail.

Gabe Suarez and some of the other warriortalk.com folks are setting up their AKs with the TA33-13 3x30 Trijicon Acog; only 6.1" long and has the 7.62x39 ballistic reticle... But it sits very high (stupid old-fashioned AR-15 "carry handle" mounting base), so you have to add a new stock with cheek riser, etc. I'd much rather mount a lower scope. The $320 Burris 3x32 is obviously intended as a cheaper Acog competitor, but it has the same stupid way-too-high mounting problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2012 at 14:03
Grant View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


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I'll mention real quick my thoughts on all the scopes I've got mounted:

I've got: A Bushnell Elite 4200 1.25-4, Nikon Monarch 1-4 African Gold (same as you mentioned) and a Weaver 1-3X normal crosshairs.

At this current moment, all are mounted in UTG sidemounts with the allen bolts (because I distrust cheap, UTG locking levers). Cheap, but they work, and they're as low as a sidemount can be and still remove the dustcover without taking off the mount.

First: Nikon Monarch. I have it mounted on a Wasr10/63. The only way I could get it far enough ahead was by using Weaver Extension rings. Look at the photograph below, and look where that scope is mounted, and where the rails end on the TWS, I doubt there is enough room to put the scope on. And on the TWS, there's no room for extension rings.

Second: Weaver 1-3X Duplex reticle. I like this scope, to a point. The first one I bought failed after about 200 rounds (reticle began wobbling). However Weaver quickly replaced it, and the replacement is working good. I would say a good choice. Short eye relief, and should easily fit on the TWS rail.

Third: Bushnell Elite 4200 1.25-4X. I LIKE this scope. NOT as clear as my Nikon Monarch, but short eye relief, and fit easily on the TWS I had. I also liked the illuminated dot. Still a few around on sale for a decent price.

I have a TWS, and used it for awhile.  I had (having) problems with the two adjustment screws shooting loose.   I'll retry it sometime soon and use red loc-tite.    One thing, you can put a scope further ahead than you would initially think, because:
A.  The rear sight is no longer in your way, so that much more pivot room.
B.  You don't have to open it up all the way.  3-4" up in the rear to take out the bolt carrier (for me at least).
 
Hope it helps!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2012 at 15:14
atp View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


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Very helpful Grant, especially the picture, thanks. From where your Nikon 1-4x is located in the picture, seems to me that it would also fit fine on the TWS rail, although it might be close; probably no room to move it forward slightly to mount the TWS rear aperture sight.

With that UTG mount, personally I'd have tried mounting both rings behind the knobs on that Nikon 1-4x to try to get it lower; maybe also cut off the rear part of the UTG rail to better clear the eyepiece.

It's pretty annoying how most of these Combloc-style side mounts locate their rail or rings in just the wrong location. The Kalinka PK-01V Side Mount might have been a winning solution (despite being somewhat clunky), except that you can't buy any side rings for it.

Hm, the Leatherwood 1-4x24 CMR ($318) might be the scope you want. 10.2" long, 3" eye relief, 17 oz. Its reticle has drop marks for holdovers, and is illuminated (not daylight visible). So the CMR should be just a tad shorter and mounted closer to your eye than your Bushnell Elite 1.25-4x24.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2012 at 07:59
Grant View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


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  Keep an eye out for the Midwest Industries sidemounts to come back in stock:
 
 I'm getting one as soon as they show up again.   I can get my Nikon lower and one more notch of picatinny forward.     Only con is that it's low enough it needs removal to take off the dustcover.  However the two guys I know that have them have reported VERY close return to zero upon reinstalling.
 
I hear you about the Russian mounts.  I can't figure out why they haven't made a sidemount that extends the rail almost to the rear sight.    Most scopes have enough eye relief, that they need to go further ahead than most sidemounts go.
 
Hmm...sorta forgot about the Leatherwood.  I'll have to look into it.  Thanks!
 
If you think the Nikon will fit on the TWS, go for it!   Of all my scopes, my 1-4 Nikon is my absolute favorite.      Another thing is: I don't know how much you like the short stocks but you could get a longer buttstock as well, that will help some with eye relief too. 
 
I like the shorter buttstocks because last two times I've been out shooting, I've worn about 3" worth of clothes Big Grin   Montana and it's USSR like winters (29 below zero +10MPH wing yesterday.  Even I didn't shoot in that).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2012 at 10:39
atp View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


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If you try the Leatherwood CMR on your AK please let us know how it compares to your other scopes! I'm also curious if you're able to fix the screw problem on your TWS, as I'm definitely trying the TWS mount first.

I like short length-of-pull stocks as I tend to shoulder them faster and more smoothly. However, the narrow top comb and low front cut-out section of my standard combloc-style plastic AK stock doesn't seem to give me quite the right cheek weld, especially in prone. This style of straighter, no-cutout, somewhat longer stock might fix that, not sure, I need to try it.

Yes, the Midwest Industries mount currently looks like the best of the AK scope side-mounts. Horse's "AKS" for 30mm scopes will probably be better once it's actually in production.

It's a shame Midwest doesn't also offer a similar but low left-offset rail, as it might useful for some situations. In shooting with a modestly left-offset red dot, I've found that canting the rifle to one side or the other is no big deal, as long as the offset optic is mounted low enough that it gives a good cheek weld in the rotated (canted) position. I definitely like it better than a way-high center mounted optic. Kind of esoteric though.

I'll stick with my plan for a low centered scope on a TWS rail for now. I'll probably also experiment with a right-offset red dot (Primary Arms Aimpoint Micro clone), possibly mounted on the forward Ultimak rail. One problem there is that all the offset red dot mounts are intended for AR-15s and would but the sight too high on an AK. It definitely should be feasible to simply hang the red dot off the scope with one of the various ring to rail mounts out there, but if I'm going to run two different optics on an AK I'd rather have them mounted independently of each other.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2013 at 08:57
atp View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: May/23/2008
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Grant, I just realized that Leatherwood's newer higher-end $500 CMR4 1-4x24 scope is supposedly a half inch shorter than the older CMR, for a total length of 9.7" or so rather than 10.2". I think eye relief is the same, so that shorter length might be very helpful for mounting on an AK with the TWS rail. Of similar scopes, it'd probably give the next-best fit after the 9.2" long (and very light) $170 Weaver 1-3x or the very short 8.8" long (but heavy and expensive, c. $1330) Nightforce 1-4x24 NXS. However, that Feb 2012 article was about the CMR4 prototype, which might differ from the production version, and SWFA currently lists the CMR4's length as exactly the same 10.2" as the old CMR.
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