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New to Optics AR15 Questions

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 20:13
Old Glory View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
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Hi I am a NEWB and I have some questions concerning what Optics to buy. I have two ar15 rifles on order.  A 2007 version of the S&W MP Performance Center and a Fulton Armory Carbine with 16 inch barrel.

The M&P is easy. I want a durable scope to shoot 100 to 800 yards. Will be benchrest/BIPOD at the range and plinking in the woods. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Looking for a good scope that will help me shoot tight groups.  Thinking of Nightforce, Leopold, and Trijicon  Accupoint.   Are there any others I should condsider?
price range $400 - $1200.


The Carbine is more difficult. Is it possible to have sight that allows precision shooting out to 300 yards and CQ shooting? Again it will be used at the range and in the woods.
Will an ACOG allow for this type of shooting? Can you shoot tight groups at 300 yards or is it just used to hit silhouettes?
Are any sights capable of tight groups at 300 and quick target acquisition up close?


Thanks!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2008 at 00:49
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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I want a durable scope to shoot 100 to 800 yards. - yea right- OK we will do our best to get there as 800 is a very long long way for a .223 and 600 is only realistic with the heavy bullets at least 69grain probably the 77 grain and the 80 would be even better but the 77 will load in the mag and the 80 has to be loaded single shot.  If you can buy a Nightforce scope for 1200 jump on it I'm thinking that is more like $1600 and worth what they cost as they have lots of internal adjustment and you will need that to get to 800 yds. I suspect you may need the plus 22 moa base from Badger if you get a scope that does not have a lot of internal adjustment.
24925 Badger Ordnance AR Riser Rail                                                                                           Badger Ordnance AR Riser Rail
  • Flat Top Style
  • 22 MOA
SWFA: $94.95
More Info... Buy Now
One way to get there is to start above center like this scope does
5214559973 Zeiss 4.5-14x44 Conquest Rifle Scope                                                                                    Zeiss 4.5-14x44 Conquest Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Rapid Z 1000
  • 1"
  • Side Focus
  • Etched Glass
  • 2nd Plane
SWFA: $824.95
More Info... Buy Now
But then you have issues when you go to shoot at low powers.
This would be high on my list:
414530 IOR 4-14x50 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope                                                                                   IOR 4-14x50 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated MP-8
  • 30mm
  • Exposed Knobs
  • Side Focus
SWFA: $1,149.95
More Info... Buy Now
this VXIII 6.5-20x50 has 90 moa of internal compared to the Mk4 only having 70moa of internal adjustment
LEU57180 Leupold 6.5-20x50 VX-III 30mm Riflescope                                                                                Leupold 6.5-20x50 VX-III 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Varmint Hunters
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Target Knobs
  • Side Focus
  • Free 2.5" Sun Shade w/ Purchase
  • Index Matched Lens System
SWFA: $791.96
More Info...
As for CQB scopes I like this one and I'm getting one and a half inch groups at 200  yds with it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2008 at 05:43
Old Glory View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
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Thank you that is the kind of information I am looking for.  I am really new to this and will be working my way out to the 600-800 range.  In reality most of my shooting will be 100-300 yards since that is what the range offers.  I am just starting my search and trying to figure out what would be best in my situation.

Thanks again!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2008 at 09:11
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There is some very interesting stuff made by IOR.  They have some fixed 6x with .223 reticles.  Then there are low power cqb stuff and a fixed 16.

 Meopta has a darn good 7.5x56 fixed.  Super Sniper's fixed 10 or 16 will make for a good range scope. 

When you get off the range the lower powered stuff gets a lot more user friendly.  IOR's fixed 6 or the Meopta make for a nice all around varmit and low light hunting stuff. The 10 x and above stuff get unwieldy in the woods.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2008 at 12:31
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Optics Master Extraordinaire
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I would be looking at a scope with a lot of E adjustment. I do not like using a riser block/rail since it raises the scope and I prefer the scope as close to the bore as possible. A Nightforce 2.5-10 (100 MOA E) or their 3.5-15 (110 MOA E) with a NPR2 reticle would be my choice. And if that is too much money for now the Super Sniper is an excellent choice and save for the Nightforce.

Also what Urimaginaryfrnd said about 600yds being reallistic is also probably using a 24 inch barrel and not the 20 inch your S&W PC has. So even 600 would be a streach. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2008 at 19:43
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/                         It can be done with a 26 in for sure, and I  am pretty sure  a White Oak  20 in SDM barreled  upper will be fairly accurate at 600 and the 18 in SPR barrel upper  should get to 600 as well - ( not as tight as this match upper  but useable),   this guys uppers win matches.
Hello John,
 
This year at the NRA High Power Rifle Championships at Camp Perry I used your White Oak Armament .223 Match Rifle Upper.
 
I was amazed with the performance and accuracy.  I placed High Junior in both the Army Cup Match with a 198-11x, and Air Force Cup Match with a 200-7x.  Both these matches were 600 yd slow fire.  The one match I fired that really stands out was the Appreciation Cup Match, 200 yd rapid fire, which I won with a 200-15x.  My first ten shot string was a 100-6x, followed by a 100-9x on my second ten shot string.  The group sizes were outstanding!!  The majority of shots from each string were within an inch
I have attached some photos for you.
Your upper shot well above my expectations.  Thank you for building an excellent product.
 
                                         Sincerely,
 
                                         Ryan Castonguay
                                         Connecticut Junior High Power Rifle Team

· Barrel twist 1-8, length 26"
· Headspace controlled to no more than .001 over SAAMI minimum.
· Wylde chamber
· Top quality components used throughout
· Sights and sight bases available separately
· Available with your choice of 2" or 2.25" Float Tube
· Forends available anodized in several choices of color.
  Note: All colors may not be available at all times.
· Barrel diameter 1" under handguard, .825 ahead of gas manifold, .75 for the last 1.5"
· Gas port moved forward 2" from standard location for proper functioning with
  the slow burning powders and heavy bullets used in HP competition.
  This reduces stress on the brass, as well as the longer forend giving
  the rifle a much more balanced look.

 


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/20/2008 at 19:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2008 at 10:00
Old Glory View Drop Down
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That's nice shooting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2008 at 11:31
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Optics GrassHopper
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I also have 2 AR's, one with a 20" heavy barrel (Fulton) and the other with a 16" barrel (Spikes) and I faced the same decision - one rifle should be a walking tack driver and one set up as an urban combat rifle. I should add here that I am an occasional hunter and informal target shooter and have absolutely no chance of ever needing an "urban combat" rifle. This means that money is an issue and the rifles will never really see field conditions.
 
I chose a Ziess Conquest in 2.5 to 8X for the Fulton (I like open field low ends) but would have gotten a US Optics if I had the money. For the 16" Spikes I ended up with an EoTech  (GREAT rapid target acquisition) with a 3X magnifier. The 3X works and really helps with target identification but I think its a bit over priced for the amount of improvement it gives. The 3 X makes the Spikes 16" about a 200 yard package but not 300 yards.
 
My buddy has a 4X Acog - its is accurate but not all that good for fast target acquisition. I also have an Aimpoint with a 2 moa dot. Almost as fast as the EoTech but not very good for accuracy.
 
My reply has probably only given more confusion to your problem - but at least ist some input!
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2008 at 22:01
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Optics Apprentice
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tom -

Thanks that is exactly where I am at.  I have been looking around and another option that came up was the Schmidt & Bender Short Dot.  Supposed to be the best of both worlds.

I want an intermediate scope for the Fulton carbine and a precision scope for the S&W.  So far leaning toward the ACOG and dreaming of a Night Force for the 20 inch S&W.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2008 at 22:10
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Another question.  For CQB how much is instinctual rather than sighting in.  If you are in your house and need to defend yourself you will be within 10 yards of the bad guy.  Do people train to shoot from the hip?  Seems like  you would just point and shoot and all this precision stuff is just for the range or for outside of 25 yards outside of the house.

While it seems cool to sneak and peak with a hopped up carbine isn't home defense better served with a shotgun?

Granted in a SHTF zombie terrorist situation an AR is your best friend but for a home invasion buckshot clears the room.  Am I wrong?

(just trying to justify the ACOAG over a Red Dot system)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2008 at 00:44
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For the M&P, I would probably go for this scope:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10157-292-ior-25-10x42-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx

10x is plenty magnification for 600 yards, and this particular scope has a nice MP-8 FFP reticle that is good for both ranging and holdover.  Price-wise, it is easily within your price range.

For the Fulton, some sort of an ACOG is probably the way to go.  I would take a good look at the 3x30 version.
Otherwise, you can look at a low range variable of some sort.  The cheapest good one is Bushnell Elite 4200 1.25-4x24.
Moving on up in price there is the Meopta 1-4x22 and for a bit more money IOR 1.1-4x26.
Meopta is a bit faster at CQ distance, while IOR is a bit more versatile at longer range.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2008 at 16:08
Jon A View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Old Glory Old Glory wrote:

Is it possible to have sight that allows precision shooting out to 300 yards and CQ shooting? Again it will be used at the range and in the woods.
Will an ACOG allow for this type of shooting? Can you shoot tight groups at 300 yards or is it just used to hit silhouettes?

Yes, you can.  MOA groups at 300 with a 4X ACOG are no problem if your carbine is accurate enough.  I've found it very good for all around use--right up to the very closest stuff.

For that, have you considered a solution such as this?

http://www.swfa.com/pc-9695-225-trijicon-4x32-acog-rifle-scope.aspx

If you do CQB all day, every day, there are better choices for sure but if it's more of an occasional thing it can get the job done while giving you more precision at longer ranges.    A short dot would be great, but they aren't cheap either.  Actually if you're looking for a good deal I have a used ACOG like the one above available that would save you a couple hundred.


Edited by Jon A - December/25/2008 at 16:09
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