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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 15:57
NW425 View Drop Down
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Hey everyone!


I am new to the "long range" shooting world (300yards and potentially up to 500yards), and just recently picked up a Ruger American in .308 win


I have been looking around, long and hard, for an optic that will allow me to engage from 100-500 yards at my range. I'm not looking to spend a whole heck of a lot (under $300) on a starter scope. I know people will tell me to save, but with all of the car issues I've been having $300 is what I have to spend and not more.


From reading online I have found 3 potential budget scope contenders.

_____________________________________________________________________

1) Millett 4-16x50 TRS-1

http://swfa.com/Millett-4-16x50-TRS-1-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P8812.aspx


I like the idea of variable zoom. It will allow me to adequately see targets at a variety of ranges. I know you really don't need to go as high as 16 for the ranges I am going for, but I like the idea of having it should I ever want to go out to 750 yards.

_____________________________________________________________________

2) SWFA SS 10x42

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P499.aspx


I have heard nothing but great reviews for this optic. While it doesn't have the adjustable variations, it appears (from the reviews) to be made of great glass. I am a little skeptical that 10x will do for 500 yard target engagements, it (should?) be adequate for learning to shoot at 300? They have 12x42, 16x42 and 20x42 options as well, but I will be shooting as close as 100 yards and I don't know if that is too much magnification for that range.

_____________________________________________________________________

3) Primary Arms 4-14x44

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_New_4_14X44_Front_Focal_Plane_Scope_p/pa4-14xffp-orion.htm


Once again, I like the idea of variable zoom, but I'm not sure how I feel about the primary arms brand. However, I am currently very familiar with their ACSS reticle as I run their 2.5x prism sight on my AR15 (100-300 yard engagement gun).

_____________________________________________________________________

Also, the Ruger American came with scope rings, should I use those or upgrade to "better" rings?

Lastly I'd like to add that I am more comfortable with using MOA over Mils. I could, however, use Mils if the right scope came up with a bit of practice.


What are all of your thoughts on my potential scope options?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 17:26
koshkin View Drop Down
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A few comments:

1) 10x is more than enough for 500 yards unless you are shooting mosquitoes.
2) Out of three scope you mentioned, only the SS is suitable for precision shooting with turret dialing.  The other two are at their best when you do not plan to use the adjustments (frankly, they are at their best sitting in a safe, but that would simply be a mean thing to say).
3) Supplied rings are not very good and I would probably start by getting a good quality single piece base and rings.

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 17:28
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Go with the SWFA.

ILya provided words of wisdom...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 17:40
NW425 View Drop Down
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Thanks for the fast replys!

To be frank I am leaning toward the Millet 4-16x50 right now. I've always been one to use the Kentucky Holdover method to shoot. I know turrent shooting can be more accurate, but is there a steep learning curve?

Another factor is due to the fact that half of the time the 200+ yard ranges are closed and I am stuck with the 50 and 100 yard rifle ranges.

Also, can you point me in the direction of an affordable "good quality single piece base and rings" for my Ruger American


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 18:50
koshkin View Drop Down
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Base:

Rings:

This is about as low as I would go in terms of pricing for the  base and rings.

As far as scope choice goes, there is no downside to a fixed power scope for your range shooting application.

If you are new at this and on a budget, get a scope that is low on features, but high on fundamentals: solid mechanical quality, solid optical quality, reliable adjustments.

That is all you need to get started.  The other two scopes on your list have a lot of features, but skip on the fundamentals.

ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:13
NW425 View Drop Down
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Right. I'll definitely sleep on it to for a few days to consider my options. I've heard the SS warranty was great. I just want to be able to accurately see my targets out to 300-500 yards. I've only ever used a 4x at 100 yards so I'm not too sure on how much the 10x would help. Would going with the 12x be acceptable?


Also, do you all recommend MOA or Mrads for the SS? Like I said, I've always shot MOA so I guess that would be better for me. 

But it appears the 12x42 is only available in Mrads which I'm not totally familiar with, but like I said, I would be willing to learn.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:15
NW425 View Drop Down
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Also, the Ruger American I got has ring bases already. I'm not sure if they're replaceable, here's the picture of what it looks like.

Also, would the "low" rings be okay for the rifle even with the 42mm objective lens?

http://www.gunsumerreports.com/Ruger_American_Rifle/Ruger_American_Rifle_011.JPG
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:16
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Millet has lost a lot of "quality" in recent years.  I use to like them, would NOT buy one of the new ones.  Everyone I know who bought recently has divested themselves of the Millet and bought another brand.

Primary Arms I know nothing of… and, quite frankly, have no interest in learning of...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:29
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The two piece bases are attached to the receiver via screws, so they can be taken off and replaced.

Low rings I linked will be high enough for the SS.

Between MOA and mrad, the turrets need to be matched to the reticle.  Personally, I find mrad to be a more intuitive system, but to each his own.  Mrad is far more commonly available, so if you are just starting out, going with that is a little simpler.

As far as magnification goes, we tend to overscope our rifles.  Your drive to go to a higher magnification is, as harsh as it may sound, a rookie mistake.

The ability to see your target depends on the distance to the target, the size of the target, the optical quality of the scope and the magnification of the scope.

The ability to see with a riflescope is very heavily dependent on the quality of that scope.  I use a 4X Elcan on my AR and can comfortably see eight inch see plates at 500 yards.  Comfortably enough to be able to aim at different portions of the plate if I so choose.

I most certainly would not be able to do it with a $100 4x scope.  The Elcan is about $1400 and despite the moderate magnification, it is more than sufficient.

My 10x42 SS sits on my 8mm Mauser these days, and I do not shoot this rifle very far out, but it has gone out to 700 yards on 18 inch plates without any issues.

I suspect I would be easily able to aim at 8" plates at at 700 yards as well had my range been aequipped with them.

Conversely, going to too high of a magnification makes everything else about shooting harder: it is harder to get behind the scope, it is more fatiguing, it is more distracting to to minor tremors being amplified, etc.

There is a reason why 10x magnification has been such a staple for tactical shooting for so long.  It is a very good way to start.

ILya



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:34
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I was going to suggest the fixed 6 ss for the intended range. I believe if you call Ruger they will swap your rings to 30 mm.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:36
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Okay thanks for the knowledge about that.

The more and more I read, the more and more I think I should be going with the SS 10x. 


Is there anything I need to know about installing the picatinny rail and/or scope?

I know the scope should be level when installing but anything else? Do I locktite anything? The rings to the receiver base? The nuts holding the scope to the rings?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 19:37
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I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 20:46
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The key is adjusting to shooting conditions (mirage, wind etc).  On higher recoil calibers at moderate ranges (400 to 800 yards) I find it much easier to call shots (on competitions with no spotters allowed) at a lower power.  Last shoot I did (100 to 1000 yards) I shot the whole match at 15x except one round at 12x. 

I would say that if you want to go higher on power, make sure you get good glass.  24x on bad glass is like looking through a black paper 2 feet in front of the scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 21:33
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Is there any benefit to using a 1913 rail over a weaver base?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 21:55
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

Dan, for how long have you been doing precision shooting?

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2015 at 22:21
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Weaver super slam 2-10x42 with ebx reticle in your range, better scope than the cost in my eyes for that price range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2015 at 09:16
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Just my opinion but a Ruger American is a good entry level hunting gun, not a precision rifle. I have one for my daughter in 7-08 with a 3-9 Conquest. It's great for her and her uses. With the right loads it is certainaly capable of hitting targets at 500yds but not sitting at a bench putting multiple rounds down range. It's just not built for that. The 10xSS would be more than sufficient for occasional shooting to 500 but the 6xSS would probably be more appropriate for the rifle. A good quality 3-x hunting scope with a drop reticle would probably suit your needs as well.

Lower power of higher quality beats cheap high magnification any time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 19:42
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The more and more I read, the more and more I think I should be going with the SS 10x. 

Is there any benefit to using a 1913 rail over a weaver base?
Is there anything I need to know about installing the picatinny rail and/or scope?

I know the scope should be level when installing but anything else? Do I locktite anything? The rings to the receiver base? The nuts holding the scope to the rings?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 19:52
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A single piece picatinny base usually offers a better aligned clamping surface for the scope than two piece bases.  

I loctite the rings that connect the base to the receiver, but usually avoid loctiting anything else.  I do prefer to use a torque wrench to make sure I tighten the screws to the right torque.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 19:56
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A quality 1913 base allows you more flexibility in mounting a scope. It is also a bit stronger, due to the deeper lugs found on them. My suggestion would be not to go cheap on rings and bases, they cause more headaches than they save money. If you need a less expensive option, these do well on my son's 308.
And since they mount directly to the rifle, there is on less set of screws to worry about loosening.
 As far as mounting the scope goes, I would use a door frame in your house as reference to get the reticle plumb. (The 10 yard focus of the SS 10x really helps in this regard as most people can find 30 feet inside...)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 21:26
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Oh, by the way all, I kind of made an impulse purchase on the rifle today!


I wound up taking home a mossberg patriot!

I found an amazing deal on it at the local gun store ($264.99), which just so happens to be $0.01 below dealer cost. It's a newer rifle, but I have heard good things about it, and if not, I can easily sell it for a minimal loss.


With the new rifle in mind, what rings should I be getting? I may begin to start hunting so I am leaning toward the 4-14x44 Primary Arms scope. The mil-dots are on the FFP, there's a side parallax adjustment, AND I can get it at manufactorer's cost (plus S+H).



What bases/rings should I use for the PA 4-14x44 on the Mossberg Patriot?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 21:43
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Which model and caliber did you get?

 And I will agree with everybody else that has already posted in this thread, and recommend against low price, high optioned Chinese junk scopes...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:13
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I agree with ILya on most points… however, I don't think there is such a thing as "over scoping".  I've never had a problem with "too much magnification".  That is why scopes are VARIABLE.  Dialing UP in magnification has never been a problem for me and adjusting for conditions never has been a problem, either.  It is a personal thing...

Dan, for how long have you been doing precision shooting?

ILya
I started shooting with the Army 1000 Meter Team in 1972.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:16
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So maybe you might be a bit more used to lining up natural point of aim, and dealing with the heart beat vibrations of a high mag scope? Especially over a new shooter?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2015 at 22:36
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BillyBurl2, the commentator above is not the OP on this thread :)

I am used to pistol shooting a lot more than rifle. 

And I just got the standard model in .308 win



Still leaning toward the PA scope. I know the "Chinese" import and "high magnification" won't be ideal, but I really do not want a fixed power :/


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