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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2007 at 14:10
Johnw View Drop Down
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Hello All,

My first post here. What a great site. OK, now on with some information.

 

I am a former SWAT sniper that alwyas used a Rem 700 action and variable powered scopes due to urban distances. I am used to wanting the most accurate rifle around.

My son is now a Marine, and after schooling will be serving on the Preseidential Guard. Yes, as you can tell I am proud of him.

 

For his accomplishment, I recently got him a S&W, M&P 15T last week. Had so much fun with it I am considering one myself, RRA, Bushmaster, or DPMS. Anysuggestions? Looking at the Entry Tactical pretty seriously.

 

Research has brought me to you, I have looked at IOR, Horus, Aimpoint, Leupold and Trijicon red dots and EOTech. For something different than I usually get. Shooting will generally be 100 yards so I am edging to the 1 MOA dots for the best precision I can get. If he takes his weapon at some point I can see him shooting out to 500 yards or so. My son is leaning to a ACOG for himself, I am still up in the air but I think leaning to the EOTech though I wish for some magnification.

 

Relearning again as I mainly shoot bulleye pistol (only open sights) and the before mentioned rifle shooting. Anxiously awaiting some help from you guys. Thanks again. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2007 at 15:18
Duce View Drop Down
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Welcome to Opticstalk, you may want to pm Cheaptrick he has a new EOTech and appear to like it and you can use the search function at the upper right of the page and I am sure you will get a lot of information the members have had experence with various scopes. I belive Cheaptrick has experence with the ACOG also

 

Duce

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2007 at 15:34
Johnw View Drop Down
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Thanks Duce..I tried to pm Cheaptrick from another post but don't know if I am doing it right. Hopefully, he will see the post. Thanks for your help.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2007 at 15:58
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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See the ACOG post at the beginning of the tactical section. If you want a small carbine, for all around use, the RRA is about the best. If you want a "door kicker carbine" with all the goodies RRA and S&W. EOs and ACOG both use the heads up display method of sighting, however the EO can be mounted forward as in a "scout" rifle positon. The eye relief on ACOGs is very critical as most don't like heavy recoilers. The EO have a 6MAO circle that can easily be used for holdover, but not as precisely as the ACOG. Just some of the many similarites and differences.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2007 at 21:32
koshkin View Drop Down
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Standard Eotech reticle is a 60 MOA circle with a 1MOA dot.  If you like the idea of going without magnification, I think Eotech is the best.

If you decide to get something with magnification ACOG is an awesome choice. 

Another good choice is IOR 3x25.  It is slightly cheaper than the ACOG and has much longer eye relief, so eye position is pretty flexible.  Also, its CQB reticle has holdover marks calibrated for 5.56x45.  If you want to stretch your range a bit this IOR works really well despite modest magnification.

Also, a scope that is gaining a lot of popularity for AR-15 shooters right now is a Meopta Meostar 1-4x22 with K-Dot reticle.  The reticle is bright enough to use with Bindon Aiming concept, and the low end is true 1x.  I think this one is the best allround choice for the money since it combines the speed of a red-dot at 1x with the precision of the ACOG or IOR at 4x.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2007 at 22:31
sandsock View Drop Down
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Love the ACOG, got a couple Aimpoints and they are good....my feelings having used the EOTech is that the Aimpoints are more....please excuse me...soldier proof....dot turns on with rotary dial....all the way on one way...all the way off the other....nice thing about EOTech's is the auto off in 8 hours (not uncommon to find Aimpoints rack-stored with the power still on).  If was buying one, I'd go AA (for obvious economics).  EOTechs are superior for close work, Aimpoints aren't bad but if you're spending hard-earned money I'd go EOTech. I've used the Leupold CQBs a bit, they'd be better if they'd field them with their SPR reticle (asked the question to their customer service and was politely told "no").  I'm heading back to the sandbox in a couple new months....I'll be taking my personal TA11 ACOG along.  I've talked to a couple friends at work about optics and pushed them towards the EOTech....the ones who wanted some magnification have decided if they really need it down the road, they can look at adding a 3x or 4x magnifier (and even then they'd be on parity with the cost of an ACOG...depending on model)

Edited by sandsock
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2007 at 08:32
Johnw View Drop Down
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All,

Thanks for the responses. Does the EOtech have a magnifier out? I have seen the one for the Aimpoint, and of course the ACOG is already magnified. Also, have heard some good things about the Leupold variable. Again, I appreciate all the help.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2007 at 08:35
Johnw View Drop Down
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Sandsock.

Forgot to say thank you for your service and stay SAFE! God Bless.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2007 at 20:17
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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A forward mt ultimak. Arsenal milled receiver 47 with EO

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2007 at 23:50
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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When it comes to Acog, have you tried it in Urban enviroments in the night when there is lights on in the streets and dark areas in the gardens............

I have and there is just to many occasions when the reticle is very hard to find so I would of that reson never chose ACOG.

Out in the field in day time the sight is great, but battles those days are often during times when we want to be in bed.

Acog is not NVG compatible and that is not an advantage.

 

Eotech is interesting, but I think it fails by the low batterytime.

The auto shut of might be seen as a good thing, but I do actually see it as the oposite, what happends if it turns off when you need it the best?

8 hours shouldent be a problem, but in extreme situations you never know....

 

I would chose the Aimpoint with it's 2 MOA dot.

IT's NVG compatible, the batterylife is 50 000 hours, there is not an out shut of or battery indicator as they consumes more battery than they save.

I think the 3X attachment is a fairly good thing, it does also give a big advantage when its twilight if you not have acess to NVG.

 

Zeiss/Hensoldt

This is just far to complicated.

As I see it it's not soldierproof and all the codes you must remeber for adjusting the brightness and so on feels like a looser.

I have borrowed one and will give it a serious try, but the complicatedness togheter with the low batterytime is not good.

 

When it comes to magnified combat scopes the SUB shortdots are interesting.

But again here is a problem with low batterylife, and of course is the NVG compability a problem.........

But If i tought the magnification is very important and I not have acess to NVG the SuB seems like the choise.

 

 

Regards Technika



Edited by www.technika.nu
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 00:11
koshkin View Drop Down
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I do not recall exactly, but didn't you work for Aimpoint, technica?  I remember when you first came onto this forum, you were in some way invovled with the design of the mount for the 3x magnifier for the Aimpoint.

Anyhow, Aimpoint makes a good reddot, but I think Eotech's reticle is faster.  Battery life can be a concern, but with the version that uses two AA batteries, battery life is pretty respectable, especially with Lithium batteries.  I have a Holosight that uses AAA batteries and with lithium energzers, the runtime is quite respectable.  It is not 50000 hours, for sure, but it is long enough.

Another interesting red dot coming out will be Millett's ZoomDot.  I got a chance to look at a prototype when I was at their factory a few months ago, and I was very impressed.  Time, of course, will tell, but I think it will be able to cause Aimpoint some grief in the market place.  The design is quite unique and appears very rugged. 

ILya


Edited by koshkin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 00:30
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Nope I am not employed by Aimpoint.

I am employed by a different company that makes some works for Aimpoint.

So I have been much involved with the design of the 3X mount as well a some other mounts.

But Aimpoint is just one customer, there is others that we make things for.

 

Havent been looking a the Millet zoom, but will do it at IWA.

 

The problems i have seen so far when you add magnification to a non magnified sight is that you also add a fixed eyerelief. Otherwise would the Elcan 1 and 4X scope be perfect, but I am not really sure that it's the solution of all requests.......

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 00:37
koshkin View Drop Down
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Ah, I see.  I remembered that you were involved with that mount in some way, but did not remember the specifics.

Millett Zoom Dot is not out on the shelves yet, I think.

Elcan Spectre DR is an interesting piece, but it is ridiculously expensive and not always available.

Most low range variable scopes with true 1x low end have very flexible eye relief at 1x.  Have you ever had a chance to look at Meopta Meostar 1-4x22?  I was very impressed with it.  At 1x I did not feel constrained by the eye relief in any way, while at 4x it was a good intermidate range weaponsight.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 00:46
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Nope unfortunatly I have vvery little experience of IOR.

THey have not had a decent importer in Sweden so I havent seen much.

I have borrowed a IOR with 56mm objective, but as can bee seen in an earlyer thread that must be an older scope (even though it comes from the importer) as the illumination is worthless.

Even on the lowest setting it glows so much that the tube is glowing on the inside, never seen anything like it.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 00:58
koshkin View Drop Down
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I was talking about Meopta.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 01:01
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Sorry I was answering to fast or actually reading your post to fast.

 

I have tested some Meoptas but not the 1-4X.

But they for sure seems to be a lot scopes for the low money they costs.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 10:09
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Another disadvantage of EOs is the pixel screen, sometimes the image is not well developed, however it can't be seen by the bad guy like a LED either. We could go on and on with this stuff, --my only question is have any of you guys shot either at night, around buildings, at a night shoot on timers (as an example and of course real time counts), to see if the difference is in your head or on the trigger?

Edited by Dale Clifford
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 14:06
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I bought my (Marine) son a Panther LR-308AP4 and put a Trijicon  TA01b on it. I have an aimpoint and have had it on several rifles it is now on a slug gun for deer hunting. I found that with a rifle I wanted something more precise. The EOTech is the primo entry gun scope but is that what this gun  will really be?, I think it is more likely that he will use the rifle to maintain his skills and for recreational target practice so an AACOG works, it's not a hunting caliber and the Gunny will assign him a weapon and provide it there will be no choice allowed there, a personal weapon wont come into the mix like it might with a PD. My background is similar LE & Mil Sec.  Check out the Trijicons on Samplelist some marked demo are NEW.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2007 at 16:37
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I disagree with Technika on the ACOG issues of an urban environment...at least in terms of the red (dual) illuminated models.  I don't like the amber models, I do lose the....pardon the term...aimpoint with them...especially the TA01NSN....dual illumination amber is not as bad really but I prefer red.  I think many of us have discussed this ad nauseum but aimpoints and eotechs are two different designs with different sets of pros and cons.   Would I bet my life on an aimpoint "Hell Yes!!!" but if I'm spending big money I'll stick with going eotech (and not just because of made in USA).  Aimpoints are the standard that all red "dot" scopes are judged by, they are the originals and are the innovators in that type of optic....choosing between an aimpoint and a eotech is more like choosing between beef and chicken.  I don't pass up a good deal on the aimpoints....my current little personally owned M-Forgery has an Aimpoint 2000 that I found in the local gun store bargain bin for $10....they didn't mark it higher because they weren't sure it worked anymore.  I dropped my $10 and did some research to find out the expensive pair of 1.5v batteries could be replaced by one 3v DL123 and sure enough it worked great.  Next step was getting a high set of TPS rings and I was in business.   I have a Comp M that I'm saving to put on my FAL Para Congo (need DSA mount)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2007 at 17:19
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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If your an action shooter Aimpoint is not the standard C-more is.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 08:30
Johnw View Drop Down
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Thanks everyone for your responses. There are two guns here to scope in case I was not clear. But first let me again say, that to all of you serving in the Armed Forces, stay safe and God Bless. I realize my son will not be able to use his firearm at his station except for personal recreation, but, he will be able to take the scope with him if he chooses overseas whenever tthat may be. I had a chance to look at some of these optics this past weekend. The ACOG to me had excellent clear glass, the red chevron was highly visible. The holdover marks are a little to small for my eyes now but he is set on this scope, so that's what I will get him. For myself, I am now going to purchase a Bushmaster 20" Heavy Barrell in case I feel like doing some DCM shooting. Taking one more look at an RRA elite because I want the mid length but am favoring the 20" Bush. Anyway, for the sake of not purchasing the same two scopes and a little fun for each of us I will look at a variable IOR or maybe the Meopta mentioned, or a Horus variable 1x4 as well. I liked the EO, and think it is an excellent entry mount, but not sure how I will shoot precision with it. All your repsonses were greatly appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2007 at 20:39
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Dale.....Concur regarding sport shooting on the C-more, I first handled one about 10 years ago when the Colt rep at an AR factory armorer school had one to demo...very impressed (they were marketing them I think at the time).  The C-more IMO is more like the same concept of the EOTech re: heads up display concept.  I was talking specifically about the tube-type scopes and the host of imitators....I'll take an aimpoint over any of their copies....anyday (especially the chinese ones).  Good luck John, I think your son will not be disappointed with the ACOG and it sounds like you will have a multipurpose set up that will be very nice.  I'm not a huge fan of short barrels.....I see no reason not to use the proven 20" barrel for the extra velocity and reliability for anything but CQB and some other special apps....here's my "if I could only own one AR15" stick

I was hoping to try some coyote hunting this fall but won't have the time this year.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2007 at 10:20
Johnw View Drop Down
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Sand,

Thanks for the info. yes, I have decided on the 2-" Bush in camo just for something different. i tend to do that. I also like the ACOG reticle that is a duplex type with range marks below. Don't know the model number but got to play with one the other day. Purchase day is Friday evening so shooting on Saturday. Sunday my son and I begin his travels to Camp Geiger. Hoorah...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2007 at 10:20
Johnw View Drop Down
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That should have read 20" above, sorry for the typo.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2007 at 14:51
Johnw View Drop Down
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Well,

this past weekend we picked up a site and bipod for my sons M&P15T. I bought him a Hariis 6-9" with canted piece for the hillside, etc.. Also, I got him EOTech for the time being. After playing with numerous sites again, I found I really liked the Trijicon Tri-power. I know it has not been reall popular but thought it pretty cool. However, you had to have a riser to bring it up to proper view, otherwise it is way to low on the rail, and a riser was not available, so we opted out for the EOTech. Mounting is easy and perfect right on the rail with co-witness for his irons. He wanted to wait a little while before specing the money on the ACOG so when that happens I will take the EO and place it on my rifle. I should be picking that up this week, the 20: bush. Shopping sure can be fun...

 

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