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new swarvoski z6 ran out of windage adjustment

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 01:53
avery View Drop Down
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My buddy just upgraded his scope to a swarvoski z6, it mounted on a browning mountain TI 300 wsm. I mounted the scope with the one peice tally light weight mounts that he had purchased. I mounted to specks I found on here 25 in lbs and 20 in lbs ring halves. I lapped them and they ligned up perfectly according the the bars with the points in my wheeler kit (sorry dont know what there clalled). We could not get her sighted in we ran out of windage adjustment with about 5 inch's Togo? Am I missing something here? Is the scope not actually out of adjustment is there some kinda trick to get mor adjustment? May I have did a poor job mounting? ( I have mounted only about 6 or 7 scopes in my life but never any issues).

Any help would be apprechaited, cheers...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 06:31
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I would look at the scope mounts and the methods you used. I would doubt that it is the scope.
 
Start off by zeroing your windage. Count how many clicks from completely left to completly right. Then dial half that number. That should put your windage dials in the middel of its adjustments.
 
Find a place where you have about 25 yds clearance. Place a large white board at the furthest point. A whitish wall etc will also do. Next place your rifle in a sturdy vice or rifle work station at the other end, remove the bolt. Peer down the barrel and let a friend mark the spot that you can see through the barrel. (or use those laser bullets if you have one)
 
Now carefully place the scope onto the bottom rings and lightly place the top rings. Only slightly tighten the screws. Look through the barrel again, make sure you are still on your spot. Look through the scope at your windage. How far out are you? If not a lot, tighten up again and keep checking.
 
If all stays on line, then good and well. If the windage starts going wayyyy out, your mounts are out of alighnment,
 
Hope this helps and is a starting point.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 07:31
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Could be multiple factors.  Mis drilled mounting holes? Bad Scope? Bad rings? Bad lapping?
 
Has this gun had another scope on it before?
 
Do you have another known shooter that you can put that new scope on and test?
 
Everyone puts out lemons so it could be the scope but I would elimate all options first.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 07:59
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SVT named the checklist of possiblies rather well if there is no trouble with the barrel/crown or bedding.
 
BTW, is the rifle grouping or is it all over the place with POI?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 09:32
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The rifle was mounted with 2 different scope before none of which had any issues. 

I ran out of windange adjustment and I'm still about 5 inch's to the right at 100 yards.

We fired about 20 rounds through it yesterday and the POI is consistent.

I would like to believe that this wasn't an issue with the lapping but anything is possible. Like I said before Iv'e only did 6 or 7 scope before but used the same process for each and they all have been within the last 6 months.

Would switching the orientation of the mounts make any difference? Right now the rear L points towards the rear and front L points towards the front.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 09:38
avery View Drop Down
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8 shots, thanks I will be trying that out as soon as I get a chance. Cheers,
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 10:04
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Just a question, but why did you lap the rings?  Did you check them for alignment first, and they were out of alignment?  Or did you just lap them for the heck of it?

I used to lap as well, but in most cases lapping is just a bandaid to fix a bigger problem.  Talley rings in my experience and from what I have read are machined very good so I would not think lapping would be necessary.  Plus it takes the nice finish off of them and they are more likely to scratch up your scope tube. 

I have the exact same rifle, scope, ring combo by the way.  What a sweet little package.






Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 11:02
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Do you have another set of rings that you know are good? Or another scope that you could mount with the current rings that you know is good? That would help you narrow it down to either the scope or the rings.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 11:10
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I use Talley one piece light weight mounts on most my rifles.  (Savages and Browning A-bolt)  I have mounted the talleys any-which-way to get the eye relief I want and have never had any issues... 6 different rifles with talleys.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 11:22
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Are the other scopes 1" vs the Z6 30mm which would preclude swapping around? If the scope actually has a problem, not to worry, Swarovski has excellent customer service, known as SONA- Swarovski Optic North America.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 15:47
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The first thing I would do is change out the Z6 for another scope of known performance, without doing anthing with the mounts, if you have another 30mm scope available. The only way to truly isolate the source of the problem is to change only one variable at a time, and you want to try to eliminate the scope as the source of the problem first, because if the scope is the problem, you want to be certain of that fact before sending it back to Swaro.

Before you mount the new scope, turn the windage adj all the way to its limits in either direction, then turn all the way to its limits in the opposite direction, counting the number of clicks. Then turn back in the original direction half that number of clicks to set the reticle in its mechanical center. Mount the scope in the rings without making any changes whatsoever to the position of the mounts. Zero the rifle with that scope. If you either have the same problem with running out of windage or it takes nearly all the windage adj range to zero with this scope as well, then you can rule out the scope as the source of the problem, and it's either related to the rifle or the rings.

Keep in mind, when it pertains to 2 piece mounts (front and back mounts are separate, not on the same rail), you can have the most precise, perfectly made rings in the world and if the receiver mounting surfaces they attach to are not geometrically perfect or are out of alignment in any direction (caused by variations in hand grinding/polishing, machining insert wear, etc. on the receiver surfaces), or if the mount holes are out of alignment front to back, even slightly...your rings WILL NOT be in alignment. If your receiver is not dimensionally perfect, it makes no difference how good your rings are, they will then be out of alignment, because they mount to the receiver. It doesn't take much angular misalignment to cause you to have to use all your scope's windage adjustment, especially if you're using a high magnification scope with limited adj range.

Once you determine whether or not the scope is at fault, then you can either send it back for repair, confident that it is the culprit, or move on to diagnose ring or receiver geometry problems.

We can then help you from there if you need help.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 16:32
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Supertool, you are correct that I always lap the rings. For the heck of it? No, I have read many articles and options about the subject. From what I have read I have decided to lap all my rings? This may be wrong or right but there seam to be enough debate out there on the subject. If lapping the rings serves no purpose then I would gladly skip that extra step.

All the other scope of the guy that owns this gun are 1", I do have a vortex 30mm on a A7 that I can remove and try.

I too have two other guns with Talley's and I have never had a problem. 

I'm busy for the next couple of day's and the guy wants this figured out so he is going to bring the gun to a local gun store to see if they find the problem. 

suppertool, is your rifle a 300 wsm if so do you reload and have you found any combinations that are sub MOA or better? The guy wants to get into reloading and he is wondering where to start. Would be used for hunting mostly, Elk, Sheep, moose with the chance of the Grizz showing up to spoil the party.

Thanks for input everyone

 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2013 at 17:50
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It is a 300 wsm.  The only load I have shot is 180 game kings.  I don't recall what my data was.  But I was getting around 1 to 1.5 inches at 100 yards IIRC. 

I have found with that super thin barrel, after 2 shots it starts getting warm and on the 3rd round POI starts to shift.  By 4 and 5 it is a pretty big shift.   But for most hunting situations 1 or 2 rounds is all you will hopefully need.

I just ordered some 180 accubonds and 180 barnes tripleshock.  We will see what they do when I find time to actually shoot them. 

It takes for ever to work up loads with that thin barrel.  Shoot 1 shot, let it cool for 15 or 20 minutes, then shoot another, etc, etc.  Loco

On lapping, I would consider not lapping unless they are slightly out of alignment.  Check the rings with your bars first and if they are okay, then there is really no need to lap.  All you are doing is rubbing off the smooth finish and digging into the metal.  If they are way off, then probably something else needs to be done like a proper bedding job to the base.  That is hard to do with 2 piece mounts, but it can be done. 

IMO the biggest downside to lapping is now those rings have to be dedicated to that rifle fitted the exact way as when you lapped them.  You asked about turning the rings around.  Well now that you lapped them you cannot do that because then those angles you lapped into them will be going the wrong way and it will bind on your scope tube now.  There is obviously a place for lapping and at times I am sure it is needed.  But I would certainly check first and only lap if required. 

If you really want to get a sweet kit check out the Kokopelli accurizing kits.  They have the alignment bars, lapping bar, and they ahve another bar that goes inside the  alignement bars that runs down your barrel to help tell you if your mounts are square with your barrel.  It is alot more than the wheeler kit, but it is a really nice kit.  John is a great guy to call and visit with if you have questions about squaring stuff up as well.  Seems real knowledgeable.  http://www.kokopelliproducts.com/acckit.htm


Edited by supertool73 - July/09/2013 at 17:57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2013 at 06:00
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Great info and I agree 100% with you Jason!  Only lap rings if there is a SLIGHT mis-alignment.  Anything more is indication of a more serious problem.  Also a good heads up on the problems of grouping with a thin light weight barrel that heats quickly.  Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2013 at 21:50
avery View Drop Down
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thanks guys, I just mounted a scope on a new rifle with the talley's and check the alignment and it was perfect as my eye could tell.... so I didn't lap....

as for my buddies gun he took it to a local gun shop they took it out back and within 20 min they came back and told him they would have to shim it with graphite to make the setup work. This wasn't the store he purchased the gun or scope but they did this for free which I though was nice of them.... He took it to the range and everything is ok now...

What did they mean when they said they shimmed them?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2013 at 06:09
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I am suspecting he placed shims between the talleys and the action but I'm a bit confused.  You said this was a windage issue and shimming the mounts is usually done to change the range of your elevation adjustment.  You said he used graphite so I'm assuming he used powdered graphite and only shimmed one side of the mounts to enduce windage correction.  How the graphite stays put I don't know.  Also I'd be worried that such a set-up would only be truly accurate at the range it was zeroed at.  SO I'd zero at 100 then check POI at 50, 200, 300 and look for sideways change in POI.  If there is an issue the POI will walk from one side of Bullseye to the other with steadily increasing range.
I'd like the hear more about this type of shimming
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2013 at 09:54
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What they did was put a shim of graphite (not powder one piece) under the rear mounts on the right side. The piece is as long as the mounts where it contacts the receiver. It runs parallel with the receiver. The placement is just about as far right as it can be (Just about on the edge of the mounts. He was over last night to start reloading, I was going to take a picture to post on here but it slipped my mind. I will try and get a picture to post. 

How may post do I need to be able to post a picture? I just know I tried before and 300S&W told me I needed more post, I thought 50?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2013 at 10:28
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50 is correct
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2013 at 11:28
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That's not surprising at all. Again, mass-produced factory rifles are notorious for having uneven receiver surfaces and misaligned holes. In order to keep retail price reasonable to the average hunter, many cost-cutting measures are used, and they cannot hold tight dimensional tolerances and maintain cost targets. Tight tolerance work increases cycle time and machine and setup complexity. In addition, there is no locating features that force precise mount alignment on top of the receiver. You're relying solely on the screw holes, which have radial clearance to the screws holding it in place, so they cannot precisely locate the mounts on the receiver surface to ensure alignment. You very seldom ever have true alignment on a factory rifle with 2-pc rings, in fact. This is why lapping, shimming, and/or bedding mounts is sometimes necessary to get your scope in proper alignment. This is why you can mount perfectly concentric, tight tolerance rings on a rifle and still have misalignment. On top of all that, you also have tolerance stack-up involved, where the receiver could be on the lower side of the dimensional tolerance on position, radius, taper, etc. and the rings could be made to the upper end of the tolerance on height, centerline position, perpendicularity, etc... or vice-versa. The amount of misalignment is therefore the sum of those deviations from nominal dimensions. Everything is made to design tolerances. There is nothing manufactured on this planet that is absolutely dimensionally perfect. The scope mounting system is only as precise as its weakest link.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation. I'm a manufacturing engineer, so I deal with the realities of "making stuff" on a daily basis. I often hear people say that lapping/shimming/bedding is unnecessary because they have super precise rings. The above explanation is why that may be irrelevant to the final outcome.

Edited to add:
This doesn't necessarily mean that lapping, shimming, or bedding mounts is always essential for getting acceptable, functional scope mounting. Usually, you can mount your scope, zero your rifle successfully and everything works fine. This doesn't mean that misalignment doesn't exist, however; just that the misalignment may be minimal enough that the scope tube is able to bend to conform to the misalignment without adversely affecting scope function to any significant degree.


Edited by RifleDude - July/12/2013 at 11:37
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