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New scope: Leupold VX-3 or Swarovski AV

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 23:08
LSUSPY View Drop Down
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Greetings Gentlemen,

 

First off I just want to say this is an outstanding forum. I located it a couple of weeks ago and I am addicted!

 

I need a scope for a new rifle project. The rifle is a Remington m700 SPS in .308 with a 21” barrel. I will probably hunt with this setup for a season or two before I send it to the gunsmith. Ultimately it will end up in a McMillan Mt. rifle stock with a 20-21” barrel. The main purpose for this rifle will be whitetail deer hunting in the South from a tree stand or possibly stalking. I have narrowed my scope selection to the following:

 

Leupold VX-3  3.5-10 x 40 (plex)  or  Swarovski AV  3-10 x 42 (plex or 4A)

 

I look forward to your input.

 

Thanks!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2009 at 23:16
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Well naturally the  S is the better glass but the L has advantages in reticle options.  Right now there are some great bargains on VX3 on samplelist. I really like the 4.5-14 personally.

10120 Leupold 3.5-10x50 VX-3 66640, Matte finish, Illuminated Boone & Crockett reticle, 30mm tube, fast focus eye piece, xtended twilight lens system, 100% new 2009 demo model, used for current SWFA.com web pictures $862.00 $679.95

10162 Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-3 66655, Matte finish, Illuminated Boone & Crockett reticle, 30mm tube, Long Range, Side Focus, fast focus eye piece, Xtended twilight lens system, 100% new 2009 demo model, used for current SWFA.com web pictures $1,070.00 $829.95
naturally the ones that are not illuminated are less.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2009 at 20:46
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The Swarovski is a sweet scope.  I would take it over a VX-3 any day.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2009 at 23:59
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I'm with Wes on this one.  The Swaro is better glass, but I'm not sure it'll make you actually shoot $500 better than the Leupy on the Sample List.  I'd take the extra cash and put it toward customizing your rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 00:38
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These are very different scopes in very different price ranges.  A bit of an apples to oranges comparison.  If you can afford a Swaro, go with the AV with 4a reticle.  If you can't afford a Swaro, Leupold is a good choice (along with a host of other similarly priced scopes).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 07:42
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

These are very different scopes in very different price ranges.  A bit of an apples to oranges comparison.  If you can afford a Swaro, go with the AV with 4a reticle.  If you can't afford a Swaro, Leupold is a good choice (along with a host of other similarly priced scopes).

ILya


Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 08:42
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zeiss conquest better than both
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 11:18
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how about a Kahles off the samplelist.com:
 
6236 Kahles 2.5-10x50 Helia CS Multizero 51825, Matte finish, 30mm tube, plex reticle, fast focus eye piece, Allows you to zero your scope at five different ranges, no ring marks, close to new condition. $1,879.00 $999.95
 
6234 Kahles 3-10x50 Helia CL Multizero 51723, Matte finish, 1" tube, plex reticle, side focus, fast focus eye piece, Allows you to zero your scope at five different ranges, no ring marks, close to new condition. $1,315.00 $749.95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 11:18
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Opinions differ.  I think COnquest fits right between Swaro AV and Leupold VX-III.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 12:23
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Opinions differ.  I think COnquest fits right between Swaro AV and Leupold VX-III.

ILya


+1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 13:20
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Opinions differ.  I think COnquest fits right between Swaro AV and Leupold VX-III.

ILya


Optically, yes.  In terms of mechanical durability, there's some anecdotal evidence suggesting the exact reverse in 1st - 3rd place may be true.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 13:23
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LSUSPY, welcome to Optics Talk and I'm lovin your sigline!!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 01:05
koshkin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Opinions differ.  I think COnquest fits right between Swaro AV and Leupold VX-III.

ILya


Optically, yes.  In terms of mechanical durability, there's some anecdotal evidence suggesting the exact reverse in 1st - 3rd place may be true.


Now, that would depend on whose anecdotal evidence it is, right?  If I were to trust only my personal anecdotal evidence, I would proclaim Leupold the least reliable of all quality brands.  I think that is the essence of the word "anecdotal".

Or how about Nikon Monarhc scopes? Mark swears that they are the toughest things since he put away his sledgehammer, but John B has had two or three go belly up.  WHose anecdotal evidence do you believe?

I do not have an answer to that.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 06:38
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FWIW - I've been wanting to get a Swaro 3-9X36 AV real bad and the information that has come to light recently has NOT changed my mind.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 08:14
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Opinions differ.  I think COnquest fits right between Swaro AV and Leupold VX-III.

ILya


Optically, yes.  In terms of mechanical durability, there's some anecdotal evidence suggesting the exact reverse in 1st - 3rd place may be true.


Now, that would depend on whose anecdotal evidence it is, right?  If I were to trust only my personal anecdotal evidence, I would proclaim Leupold the least reliable of all quality brands.  I think that is the essence of the word "anecdotal".

Or how about Nikon Monarhc scopes? Mark swears that they are the toughest things since he put away his sledgehammer, but John B has had two or three go belly up.  WHose anecdotal evidence do you believe?

I do not have an answer to that.

ILya
 
I would think the volume of Leupold products(many of which are NOT their upper end offerings) that are out in use in this country and performing reliably speaks for itself.  That is.... evidence.  But your point is valid.  Any one person's experience is a small slice of reality that we should all store in our mental files to form a broad opinion based on the knowledge of many.  This should reduce the effect of personal bias as well.  
 
For what it's worth I've been shooting competitively with Leupold's and Monarch's without a problem for a while now.  The sport of benchrest was formed mostly on the dependabilty and tracking of Leupold scopes.  They still top a large percentage of guns at the matches I attend.  This is precisely the crowd who has little room for equipment that doesn't perform as intended.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 09:53
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Good post's, Gentleman. The more I learn about optics, the less that I really know based on my bias and limited personal experience.
 
(I will meditate upon these profound thruths as I split firewood today.)   
 
PEaCe unto you all.......Hippie 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 11:16
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As an owner of a Swaro AV and a few Conquests, there is no doubt the optical advantage goes to Swaro.

As to mechanical reliability, all mine, Swaro and Zeiss, have been fine.

I will agree with ILya that, with my experience, Leupold does break allot, but as a consolation prize, they do have great Customer Service, I am told.

If this is a gun that will eventually go to a smith and ride in a McMillan stock, you seem on the path for maximum utility at whatever the cost needs to be.  if that is accurate (no pun intended), get the Swaro, it is indeed far beyond the Leupold and distinctly better than the Conquest.  And it damn sure better be, given the price differential.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 11:42
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Gentleman, since it looks like my point was somewhat lost in the thread I would to clarify. 

This is exactly what I meant:
-I believe both Leupold and Swarovski to be reliable brands. 
-The fact that that different people have occasionaly had less that satisfactory reliability from these brands over the years does not have enough statistical evidence to accuse either brand of having poor quality control.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 12:24
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Gentleman, since it looks like my point was somewhat lost in the thread I would to clarify. 

This is exactly what I meant:
-I believe both Leupold and Swarovski to be reliable brands. 
-The fact that that different people have occasionaly had less that satisfactory reliability from these brands over the years does not have enough statistical evidence to accuse either brand of having poor quality control.

ILya
 
I understood you perfectly the first time and I agree with you 100%.
Thunbs Up     
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 12:50
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I agree with Koshkin's comments overall, and that is why I was careful to qualify my comments with the words "anecdotal" and "may," because I own all 3 and the only scope I've ever had fail was a Leupold Vari-X II 3-9X40 about 25 years ago.  I have enthusiastically recommended the Swaro AV in the past, and recent info that has come to light has damaged my confidence in the durability of this series of scopes, so I'm more hesitant to recommend it any more.  I wasn't inferring any of the 3 has poor quality control, but I have begun to question whether the Swaro AV is designed to withstand heavy recoil, based on:

1.  Both Swaro and Zeiss caution against using their 1" scopes on heavy recoil rifles.  Leupold says their 1" scopes are suitable for heavy kickers and does a pretty brutal recoil test on all their scopes to prove their mechanical integrity.
2.  Leupold 1" variables have routinely been used on dangerous game rifles for decades, and they have a good reputation for holding up to the punishment of extremely heavy recoil among that community.
3.  Multiple accounts of AV failures under heavy recoil on internet forums.
4.  Comments made by prominent custom rifle builder D'Arcy Echols in a recent magazine article I read where he publicly stated that Leupolds have been the only 1" variables he's never had fail on heavy recoiling customer rifles.  It's worth noting that he used to recommend Swaro AV's and doesn't anymore.








Edited by RifleDude - February/15/2009 at 14:34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 13:04
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On his .308 any decent scope should hold up, so, as Ilya and I discussed in another thread, durability is not an issue.  The Swaro has better optics, as it should.  But, he asked about VX-3's not VX-III's, so the optical difference would be less (I really wish Leupold had changed the name more dramatically than III to 3; they are much better marketers than that).  Get whichever one you want to spend the money for; you'll love it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 14:08
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  I'd go for the Leupold.  The latest VX-3 feature Diamond Coat Coatings which are 15X harder than conventional coatings.  That means won't you have the problem of very slow degradation of the scopes coatings due to ordinary cleaning, and, above all, if you must use your shirt tail to quickly clean the lenses in the field, you don't have to worry about scratching them. 
  They new VX-3's feature the same lenses and coatings that the very well recieved VX-7 has, their Xtended Twilight Lense System. 
  They are much cheaper than the Swaro AV's.   The prices I've seen for the Leupold VX-3 in that size are about $580.  The Swaro AV you are looking at is listed at about $990. 
  It's been my experience that Leupolds have much larger eye boxes than their competition.  In their VX-7 line, Leupold claims 67% more EB at the lower magnifications,  and a whopping 137% more at their higher magnifications than the competition. 
  Leupolds have the rep as being tough and reliable.  Their VX-3 have the next generation inert gas mix, Argon and Krypton.  The are all, even the cheapest Rifleman scopes, recoil tested at 750 g's for 5000 times.   That's the equivalent of a .375 H7H's recoil.   I've never heard of any of the Swarovskis being recoil tested at all.    OHE 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 15:39
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That's funny, I didn't think they even made record players anymore.  And yet I keep hearing this broken record.....     Shocked

E, do you really believe the fact that you've never heard of it is plausible evidence that Swarovski does no recoil testing?  Do their Engineers over there typically keep in close contact with you, informing you of their day to day activities?

I like the new screen name BTW.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 15:47
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Only had to read the first sentence to recognize a Eremicus post.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2009 at 15:48
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Some thing never change, I suppose.

E still talks about things he has no knowledge of.

For the benefit of other people on this thread, I just want to point out that E has never seen or used Swaro AV.  He has also never seen or used the new Leupold VX-3.

As a general observation he has no idea how abrasive or fragile a typical lens coating is, nor does he have any clue on which coating Leupold marketing people compared the DamondCoat to.

While new to this forum, E has posted the same illegible BS all over the forums in the past.

ILya
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