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New Scope For .257 Weatherby Vanguard

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2010 at 00:50
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I have a New never fired .257 Weatherby Vanguard I picked up from a Buddy for 200 bucks that he won at a NWTF banquet a couple years ago. Being a fan of the "FORUM" I like to think some day some wild creature may fall at the hands of my personally aquired skills at delivering "DEATH FROM AFAR". In reality out of my personal arsenal the longest sight range I have I can visit is 150yds. I like to think on a blue collar salary some day I may be able to practice and truly become long range as alot of the Forum members speak of.
  This rifle has a NWTF stamped triggerguard and I have since dumped the plastic stock for a Claro Walnut I have personally rubbed nine coats of Tru-Oil onto. I am a fan of Zeiss. Have the 6.5-20x50 Varmint Reticle on my 700VLS 22-250. 
  Is Leupold I perceive trashed here like Wal-Mart cause they are the biggest? I need honesty. Can't afford to buy and sell like most.  Would love to pick a great topper for this rifle for around 500.00. But come what may I know most will say 4.5-14x44/50 Rapid-Z800. Really like the idea of Dialing the Leupold Custom Shop and giving them the Ballistics for Berger 115VLD and getting a custom reticle in the VX-3.    WILL I BE DISSAPOINTEED IN THE QUALITY/DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CONQUEST AND VX-3 GLASS?  Honest shooter opinion's solicited only. NO TESTER LOBBYIST RESPONSE PLEASE. WILLING TO PAY FOR SATISFACTION BUT DON'T RECOMMEND 2,000 GREEN BACK PLEASE.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2010 at 06:26
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My own opinion is that the VX3 and Conquests are on a par with each other now. Others here may not agree.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2010 at 08:42
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they are pretty close, the conquest may be a hair better in lower light levels.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2010 at 22:23
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Thanks guys.  That deal on the 3-9 conquest sold me. Heck, the Zeiss is probably just as American as Leupold anyway.  Besides that, I slipped in locally and picked up a Accu-point Jesus scope with Jap glass  this weekend.  Like I told a buddy, I had to give that Weatherby to my sweety when I found out I could order me one of them 700SF .257WB's and have it here in ten days. And I'm gonna out shoot er' with my 3-9 Conquest.  All year long!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 06:40
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Wow. Looks like you'll be on your honey's good side.

A .257 Weatherby Vanguard for $200? And a Conquest and an Accupoint? Just Wow!


None of my buddies would part with a gun for any reason, bunch o' knotheads, anyway. 

Wish somebody would give me a .257 Weatherby. Or sell me one cheap.

While I'm wishing...

I wish Zeiss would bring back their lower- power tweener Conquest, or maybe a 1.5-4.5...


Just looked through a VX-3L and a Diavari at late dusk and the VX-3L was brighter- it had a bigger objective- (56 vs Zeiss 50), which explains the light gathering, but the Leupold was no slouch in an other way that I could see. I can't personally deal with a cut-out lens or huge bells, but the Leupold was very impressive.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 09:24
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Wow. Looks like you'll be on your honey's good side.

A .257 Weatherby Vanguard for $200? And a Conquest and an Accupoint? Just Wow!


None of my buddies would part with a gun for any reason, bunch o' knotheads, anyway. 

Wish somebody would give me a .257 Weatherby. Or sell me one cheap.

While I'm wishing...

I wish Zeiss would bring back their lower- power tweener Conquest, or maybe a 1.5-4.5...


Just looked through a VX-3L and a Diavari at late dusk and the VX-3L was brighter- it had a bigger objective- (56 vs Zeiss 50), which explains the light gathering, but the Leupold was no slouch in an other way that I could see. I can't personally deal with a cut-out lens or huge bells, but the Leupold was very impressive.Loco

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 10:47
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Just looked through a VX-3L and a Diavari at late dusk and the VX-3L was brighter- it had a bigger objective- (56 vs Zeiss 50), which explains the light gathering, but the Leupold was no slouch in an other way that I could see. I can't personally deal with a cut-out lens or huge bells, but the Leupold was very impressive.



Same power setting?

If there is one thing for which Leupold is NOT known, it is their low light capabilities.  To say a Diavari, arguably the brightest scope on the market for low light shooting (without moving to night vision), was bested by a Leupold, there has to be more to that story.

Was the Diavari coated in mud and frozen for 2 months in a deep freeze just before comparing to the VX3?  If not, you had your hands on the worst Daivari ever made OR the best Leupold ever made.

Were they both yours?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 16:08
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Originally posted by FuddyDudd FuddyDudd wrote:

I have a New never fired .257 Weatherby Vanguard I picked up from a Buddy for 200 bucks that he won at a NWTF banquet a couple years ago. Being a fan of the "FORUM" I like to think some day some wild creature may fall at the hands of my personally aquired skills at delivering "DEATH FROM AFAR". In reality out of my personal arsenal the longest sight range I have I can visit is 150yds. I like to think on a blue collar salary some day I may be able to practice and truly become long range as alot of the Forum members speak of.
  This rifle has a NWTF stamped triggerguard and I have since dumped the plastic stock for a Claro Walnut I have personally rubbed nine coats of Tru-Oil onto. I am a fan of Zeiss. Have the 6.5-20x50 Varmint Reticle on my 700VLS 22-250. 
  Is Leupold I perceive trashed here like Wal-Mart cause they are the biggest? I need honesty. Can't afford to buy and sell like most.  Would love to pick a great topper for this rifle for around 500.00. But come what may I know most will say 4.5-14x44/50 Rapid-Z800. Really like the idea of Dialing the Leupold Custom Shop and giving them the Ballistics for Berger 115VLD and getting a custom reticle in the VX-3.    WILL I BE DISSAPOINTEED IN THE QUALITY/DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CONQUEST AND VX-3 GLASS?  Honest shooter opinion's solicited only. NO TESTER LOBBYIST RESPONSE PLEASE. WILLING TO PAY FOR SATISFACTION BUT DON'T RECOMMEND 2,000 GREEN BACK PLEASE.


Where are you in Alabama? Brocks Gap in Hoover has a 500 yard range, you can shoot in matches on the second and third Saturdays of the month.

http://www.scssa.org


Edited by Steelbenz - January/26/2010 at 18:00
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But not with .50BMG...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 17:05
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Hey SteelBenz thanks for that range info. I will definitely look into it! I am in Heflin @ 80 miles from Hoover.  Not far at all for a Supertrucker!  Are you familiar with this place? Is it a membership only club with time restricted enrollment? Gonna go see if Google's got em'. Thanks again.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 17:56
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Yes, I shoot there regularly. The matches are open to the public, the match fees are 15 dollars and 5 dollars per flight after that. E-mail Larry Lavine for a shooting time, he's the match director.   larlevine@gmail.com

Yes Dan, Elvira will not be allowed to destroy the berms. The Lott is a confirmed tree killer but the berm can handle Mr Lott.  But that woman has got to stay at the house. LOL!


Edited by Steelbenz - January/26/2010 at 18:02
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 03:38
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

Just looked through a VX-3L and a Diavari at late dusk and the VX-3L was brighter- it had a bigger objective- (56 vs Zeiss 50), which explains the light gathering, but the Leupold was no slouch in an other way that I could see. I can't personally deal with a cut-out lens or huge bells, but the Leupold was very impressive.



Same power setting?

If there is one thing for which Leupold is NOT known, it is their low light capabilities.  To say a Diavari, arguably the brightest scope on the market for low light shooting (without moving to night vision), was bested by a Leupold, there has to be more to that story.

Was the Diavari coated in mud and frozen for 2 months in a deep freeze just before comparing to the VX3?  If not, you had your hands on the worst Daivari ever made OR the best Leupold ever made.

Were they both yours?

They were at a dealer- both on same power- looking at the east side of a building with lots of detail within 10 minutes after sunset- the Leupold was brighter and I commented same- the dealer agreed and touted the big bell (ya think?) I didn't crank the focus, just set both at same power. The Zeiss had a #4 reticle and the VX-3L had some ballistic type, both visible against the night sky and the dark side of the building. It was obvious that the Leupold was brighter, I didn't have to "guess" which was brightest. 

The VX-3L was noticeably brighter than the Zeiss Diavari.

You don't have to believe me, try it yourself. 



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 07:29
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On second thought, I may be wrong about the objective diameters. I wasn't there to see either of those models, but the salesman handed 'em to me, so I looked.

The Zeiss may be a 42mm and the Leupold a 50mm... the VX-3L seemed to be "the next size bigger" than the Zeiss. I'll be back up there in the next few days to buy some powder/bullets and will give exact info... until then, just go ahead and think I'm a nut. 

Might be.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 09:24
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I'm not dogging you, but - as I said before - if there is one thing Leupold is NOT known for, it is the one thing Diavari IS known for, that is low light performance.

I don't have to look for myself, I spent probably 3 months last year looking through everything I could find for low light hunters.  I compared everything and the 3-12x56 Victory Diavari was the best I have ever seen.

In truth, I cannot see a VX3 beating a Conquest, but it is possible if the Conquest is 44 and the VX3 is 50 or 56.

When you go back, look through them again, check the power setting and the models, I'd be interested.  Hell, I might want "that" Leupold, maybe it is a fluke and it is the best glass Leupold has ever put in a scope - or the Diavari is the worst.

Trying to convince optics guys that Leupold has better low light performance than Diavari (all things being equal) is like trying to convince a NASCAR driver that a VW bug is the fastest car on the planet: maybe there's a fast bug somewhere, but "it" doesn't represent "them".


Edited for terrible spelling



Edited by Rancid Coolaid - January/27/2010 at 09:25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 11:18
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I have compared these two scopes. (In store) I can only say that I got a different view. The new Leupold is a step forward (LONG OVERDUE) but isn't at the same level as the Diavari. Even only in store the contrast and resolution differences were obvious.
Now every one sees things differently, and certain types of coatings appeal more to some than to others, and depending upon your own eyes ability to discern different hues of light, one scope may appear to be better, but once the light becomes critically low, the difference will become more than apparent.
It is also noteworthy to address the fact that ones eyesight can limit the appreciation for differences in contrast and resolution beyond a certain quality level. For those that have exceptional vision the higher quality lenses will always out perform the lower.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 11:44
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Good points.  Also, if the Diavari was a pre-LoTutec version, it might be closer.  If it is a LoTutec scope, I have trouble believing there would be any comparison, even if you  look through the Zeiss backwards it'd be the Leupold.  Well, maybe not, but maybe!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 14:16
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Hey, Rancid Coolaid,

It might just be my eyes. I am trying to figure if I can get back up there tonight to find out. I'm not trying to convince anyone here of anything. I didn't have a clue about anything optical until I started hanging out around here and still don't know much. You can tell that by how I used the term "light gathering" earlier.

Never having seen a Diavari before and knowing them only from what I'd read here, I was quite surprised that that big- bell Leupold was brighter. I told the man handing me the optics that I couldn't believe that the Leupold was brighter than the Diavari. He agreed it was brighter and said it was because of the big bell. He may also have mentioned the coatings. I know the Zeiss was the Diavari because I asked him the correct way to pronounce it and he corrected me. 

cyborg,

You may be right about perceptions of brightness, colors, etc. being affected by poor vision. My poor old eyes are corrected by my Zeiss lenses, which is ironic and kind of funny under the circumstances. I do also remember the Leupold showing more of the actual yellowish tint of the building than the Zeiss did.

The optics salesman also saw the brightness difference and he wasn't wearing glasses and was a lot younger than me. I think the only reason he handed me the Leupold in the first place was because I'd made a comment about how much brighter the Diavari was than the Conquest and the other scopes he'd shown me. That's when the Leupold came out of the display case. He knew I'd be impressed. I protested that I didn't like big bells and crescent cutouts, but looked through it anyway.

The best optics I own are Sightron Big Sky and Bushnell Elite 4200, followed by a VX-II and some other stuff- nothing in the same league as what we've been talking about. 

Perhaps my memory is as faulty as my eyes. Even though tonight will be cloudy and it was clear the evening I was there, I think I'll drive up there tonight and check it out again at dusk. You guys are causing me to doubt myself, because you've taught me a lot and I value what I've learned here.

For anyone in the OKC area that wants to find out for themselves, the store is the new one way up on N. Kelly in Edmond, the one with the west- facing windows next to the optics counter.

Later...



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 14:32
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Remember that there are wavelengths that are more readily accepted by human eyes. This all dependent upon the number of cones and rods respectfully and relatively speaking. We all are different in the number of each type of receptors present. Some people have more rods present than others, they are prone to be color blind, but generally have better night vision than others. Naturally the more cones that are present the more aptly you will see shades and hues of various colors in the spectrum. Coatings are a great way to make a scope seem brighter than it actually is. Once the spectrum of colors fades away and the spectrum becomes more bluish, this is when the real difference will come into play. Age really has nothing to do with any of this. It is purely genetics, and eye health. Not all are created equal.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 15:01
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I have not seen the March products and I certainly believe as much as is written here that more than likely the Voretx HD could very well compete with what I call Tier 1 German Glass.  That being said.....I am familiar with Zeiss as I own the big Conquest. So far. And I have looked at VX-3 and vx-7 and Diavari together.  Granted being, some of the VX-7 Glass could be from the Czech Republic or elsewhere that American Armies liberated in WWII but still the Leupold Tier 1 is a tier two compared to a DIAVARI.  JMO.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 15:05
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Not trying to run you off or say it ain't so, just want passers by to know that it would be highly unusual for a Diavari to lose in a low light competition with any Leupold product.

All is well, carry on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 15:57
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Not trying to run you off or say it ain't so, just want passers by to know that it would be highly unusual for a Diavari to lose in a low light competition with any Leupold product.

All is well, carry on.
 
Right. I understand completely. Not trying to make something out of a Leupold that isn't. I'll be up there in a couple of hours... After all this flak, I don't believe it myself anymore, LOL.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2010 at 22:32
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Made a much more thorough test this evening of the following scopes:

Leupold VX-3L 3.5-10X56 and X50, compared with a Zeiss Diavari T 2.5-10X50 (Lotutec)

The brightness winner... There wasn't one.  I arrived later than intended, so the sun was further down and the heavy clouds made it darker anyway, so the test conditions weren't the same. However, let me say upfront that I was wrong to say earlier that the Leupold was noticeably brighter, because it wasn't under tonight's more extensive viewing.

The 3L-50mm was immediately ruled out as a contender, being noticeably darker than the other two. We fooled around looking through the store glass for awhile at a building ~250 yards to the west, then went outside into near complete darkness. Before we began the test, this salesman (I've known him for years- he worked at a gun store near my home) was all about how much brighter the Diavari was going to be, but it didn't turn out so. I couldn't tell the difference in brightness and he couldn't say that he could either.

We looked at various aiming points on the building, and around the area. When picking an individual tree out of the woods at 400 yards North- too dark to see individual trees with the naked eye- the same tree barely visible with the Zeiss was there for the Leupold as well. I could see the same red bricks on the building and pale yellowish flat wall areas and make out all kinds of other detail equally well, as far as brightness was concerned. You'd have to use some sort of test equipment to tell them apart, brightness- wise. The Leupold needed its great big 56mm bell to achieve parity in these light conditions- the 50 didn't compete. It was interesting that with the town lights reflected off clouds as the only light, I could easily see both reticles when looking at grass, concrete and other more or less neutral surfaces; the Leupold having a duplex and the Zeiss a #4 reticle.

However, the Zeiss had it all over the Leupold when it came to other things like sharpness, or clarity of image, or however I could describe the differences. In fairness, we never did get around to fine tuning the Leupold focus, but I think there was more to it than mere focus, as the reticle was nice and sharp for me as it was.

All details on all objects were much sharper and well defined through the Diavari. The Zeiss was easily the better scope in all ways that I know how to describe the sight picture, except brightness. 

I know everyone took me to task for saying that the Leupold was brighter than the Zeiss the other evening, but the light was different and I really didn't spend but a minute or so with each scope then, through the store window and I really thought the VX-3L won that contest, but I was wrong. There was no clear brightness winner to my eyes, at least.

The real winner of the evening was a Z6 Swarovski, however. After the salesman and I bragged about that Diavari for a while, he told me to get ready for the real eye candy and brought out the Swaro and it was as much superior to the Diavari as the Diavari was to the Leupold. I can't really define why except to say that the Z6 was just sharper and clearer and there was just something that made the image "better" to my eyes. 

One thing that I can pin down is the contrast. Looking through windows into bright rooms across the road, I could see some objects with the Leupold, but many appeared washed out in the light. I could see quite a bit more with the Zeiss and could see everything with the Z6. I don't know how to explain this phenomenon other than to call it contrast. This would probably be apparent in full light in some aspect of image quality as well.

Right now, I wouldn't be caught dead with a 56mm objective, but could put up with a 50mm, like on the Zeiss. So, if I were looking for a real low- light champ, even though the Leupold fared well, I'd probably rule it out, unless I just had to have that level of low-light performance and money was an issue (which it is). In that case, it would be the Leupold.

The Diavari was clearly a superior scope, but was priced at twice the Leupold.

However, the Swarovski was almost identically priced to the Zeiss and I thought it was the hands down winner with an image that made me say Wow out loud. We didn't spend any time with the Z6 trying to discern it's comparative brightness, but the image quality was just much better for my eyes and I'd have to say that there was nothing to make me think it wasn't as bright.

Others might disagree. Pretty sure they will.


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Good review Alan. I was trying to convince myself to go sell a few ole guns and put in for a new Diavari.  Now that is all confused by the Z-6. Jap Jap American, Jap German American, China Jap American, Jap Jap Jap, German German German.  I guess the only thing we can rely on is individual results according to our own eyes, and knowing no matter what we choose we won't get American American American in a scope. Us Optics may be the only one claiming an all american scope but I'm sure there is something from over somewhere in their glass.  My opinion, the Vortex prolly got that same glass as the Leupold vx-3, cheaper.
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The immediate thing to remember when comparing for low light performance is exit pupil. Not everyone remembers to make sure of this first. All else, it is really a matter of doing comparisons, and picking a scope that meets your needs, and tastes. Not everyone can gain advantage in the added expense of premium glass. Still, scope quality, and good coatings are very important, and add to the manufacturing costs. With this in mind, the better scopes will generally cost more than you may initially be willing to spend. Ofcourse we also know of some high priced crapola being pushed as well. Bottom line. Compare, compare, and compare some more. By the way, the Swaro Z-6, that is no surprise to many of us here.
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

The immediate thing to remember when comparing for low light performance is exit pupil. Not everyone remembers to make sure of this first. All else, it is really a matter of doing comparisons, and picking a scope that meets your needs, and tastes. Not everyone can gain advantage in the added expense of premium glass. Still, scope quality, and good coatings are very important, and add to the manufacturing costs. With this in mind, the better scopes will generally cost more than you may initially be willing to spend. Ofcourse we also know of some high priced crapola being pushed as well. Bottom line. Compare, compare, and compare some more. By the way, the Swaro Z-6, that is no surprise to many of us here.


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Need rings and base for Weatherby Vanguard Elite BobR93 Rings and bases 3
Howa / Weatherby Vanguard Question... The Apostle Firearms 0
Weatherby Vanguard w/ Zeiss jonbravado Firearms For Sale 0
Weatherby Vanguard SUB MOA pyro6999 Firearms 74 10/6/2007 8:14:26 PM
Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe fwinn Firearms For Sale 9 3/19/2007 7:35:44 PM


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