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NEW rimfire setup - need help.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 08:28
jonbravado View Drop Down
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Hi Guys/Gals -

 

i am torn between two different rifles for a new 22LR for off-season practice. 

 

Savage Mark-II BV

Mark-II Rimfire Series Model MARK-II-BV

 

or

 

CZ 453 varmint

 

 

the savage i can get for around 250 bucks / the CZ i have to spend 478 bucks to get.

 

now - the facts -

 

they both have great accuracy / premium triggers / etc.

 

i have read that the savage Mark II - shoots WONDERFUL groups but 'sprays' the first round for some reason. (NOT good for hunting)

up to an inch off from the other 4 shots (.25" groups for some folks)  MANY folks have said this for some reason.

 

has anyone had experience w/ either of these?  Is the CZ worth twice the money? it's got a badass trigger, apparently and they are

known for being shooters.  But the accu-trigger is great.   I want ONE gun to last a lifetime and don't mind spending as much as the CZ - can't afford a cooper or kimber!!!

 

as for the optics:

 

would a side focus mil dot scope that can focus parallax free down to 40yrds be ok for rimfire?  it's a really nice scope that i was thinking of

putting on top of either of these.  Is 40yrds close enough?

 

THANKS in advance for your info and advice - i always learn much from the more experienced folks here.

 

J

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 09:50
RifleDude View Drop Down
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JB,

I would personally get the CZ if it were me, but part of your decision should be based on how both rifles feel to you when you shoulder them.  A buddy of mine has the 453 and it will really shoot!  If you look around, you can often get one with pretty decent wood for the price as well!  I really like the stock shape and balance of this rifle and the fit and finish, while not in the same league as Coopers and Kimbers, is good for the price.  It is a solid value!  The trigger is a little creepy -- I would rank it as so-so out of the box -- but you can fix that, plus there are aftermarket triggers available for this rifle from a couple manufacturers.  All the ones I've shot have been very accurate!

 

My only gripe about the CZ rimfires are that due to the way the bolt cocks the mainspring, if you accidentally apply pressure against the bolt handle when the bolt is fully withdrawn to the rear, it can uncock and the handle will slam against the grip area of the stock when the mainspring unloads, putting a small dent in the stock.  If this happens, it will not damage the rifle mechanically, nor does it mean there's something wrong with the gun.  You just lift the bolt again to recock it.  It's just a design quirk with this gun, as it has no mechanical provisions to prevent the bolt handle from rotating when the bolt is in its rearward position.  Simply be careful not to put any downward pressure on the bolt handle when its in the open position and you'll be o.k.

 

I don't have a great deal of experience with this particular Savage, so can't comment on it, but aesthetically, I like the nice walnut stock of the CZ. 

 

Yes, a 40yd parallax adjustable scope would work just fine on the rifle.

 

Good luck and let us know what you decide on.



Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 10:02
jonbravado View Drop Down
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thanks RD -

 

your input is respected and appreciated.  I am leaning towards the CZ.  but the savages do feel nice in the hands.

 

question - would the CZ 452 be ok as well? - it has an adjustible trigger down to 2 lbs. but not the Single Set Trigger like the 453.

 

and do you know if the trigger on the CZ 452 could be adjusted for creep - 2 lbs is light enough for me, if it's a quick break.

 

thanks, again.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 10:29
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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depends on how serious you take 22's or just want to blow a couple of bricks downrange. not that the savage isn't serious-- it is just not in the same class-- of serious---  the cz IS target grade with the matched brand. also the cz is more like a lifetime gun and has a much more off season real rifle feel for practice. As rifledude and tahqua have mentioned the sorry state of good 22 scopes, the cz, is worthy of a "better" grade. Standing back in the safe zone the 6.5x20 EFR Leo is natural for this gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 11:56
jonbravado View Drop Down
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good input dale, thanks. 

 

I am quite serious about this rimfire thing.  I am selling some of my hunting gear to set this one up.

 

ME? put a LEO on a gun?  hehehe.
joking, i do like their rimfire scopes, a lot.

 

was thinking of either that, weaver rimfire, or maybe even sightron.

 

i would spring for a kahles rimfire, but they are a bit out of range

 

do you think that the leo rimfire would meet or exceed the weaver rimfire line?

i haven't compared the two side by side.

 

do you know if the 2 lbs trigger on the CZ 452 would be adjustible enough for 'crispness'

 

also - i am looking at the aguila SSS - sniper subsonic rounds - 60 grains and hard hitting for 22LR.

any experience w/ those?

 

thanks guys for the info - learning a good bit from your posts. always do.

 

J

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 11:58
jonbravado View Drop Down
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i am leaning toward the CZ 452, now - it's 100 dollars cheaper, but doesn't have the new target trigger.

 

i am a trigger conscious hunter now - after going w/ the sako m995 action/trigger, and the tikka T3 triggers, i don't want to go backwards.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 12:21
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the 6.5 efr isn't really a "rimfire" scope it's the real deal with their "index"matched lenses, (the term Koshkin hates so bad). it is "competition grade" the most frequently used scope in events like the "masters championships" etc. Leos rimfires II are about the same as a weaver, or at least the ones I've had. Plinkin stuff. If at all possible go all the way with the cz, as even then they are under-priced. (when you consider a kimber or cooper is 1k the cz is the buy of the day).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 12:39
jonbravado View Drop Down
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thanks, dale -

 

i like the 6.5's - just don't know if i would spend that much on the glass......YET.

and is is the index matched system THAT much better than the multi coat 4?

i haven't been blown away by the vxIII's as a whole.

 

i have just gotten my hands on a lightstream 5.5-20x50mm - newer uk company.

( i will be posting a review soon of this scope w/ the help of some pals here at OT - look out for it )

it's a 30mm tube target scope that is optically brilliant (4200 or better quality glass) and is built like an army tank.

mildot w/ illumination.  very very nice target scope.

 

it'll be a bit heavy for a setup and a little larger than normal rimfire optic - but would give topnotch performance w/

side focus down to 40 yrds i think.  I'll post a picture of it soon.

 

would this be overkill for the CZ?  i like the smaller lines of the weaver or leo EFR - but the gun is already heavy.

might as well make it a monster.

 

thanks for the input.  I trust you all's experience and have NO problem learning the easy way -vs- the hardway.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 13:45
RifleDude View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jonbravado jonbravado wrote:

question - would the CZ 452 be ok as well? - it has an adjustible trigger down to 2 lbs. but not the Single Set Trigger like the 453.

 

and do you know if the trigger on the CZ 452 could be adjusted for creep - 2 lbs is light enough for me, if it's a quick break.

 

JB, the 452's trigger is "o.k.".  It is actually a little creepy, and no, it doesn't have adjustment for creep.  It is basically a similar design to the Winchester M70 trigger, believe it or not, and is adjustable for pull weight in the same manner.  I don't get too concerned with factory rifle triggers unless they are completely horrible, as I either work the trigger or replace it entirely with aftermarket triggers on almost every rifle I buy.  In the case of the 452, getting a great trigger pull doesn't cost a lot of money.

 

Here is a good site for everything you want to know about CZ triggers, including buying aftermarket trigger components:

http://www.cz452.com/

Eric Brooks is quite knowledgeable about tweaking CZ rifles.  Lots of good reading there.

 

I agree with Dale about the CZ's having more of that "real rifle" feel to them.  Besides the quirk with the bolt handle, I'm not real enamored with the way the magazines project out of the bottom of the stock, but they are nice looking, well-made rifles with nice bluing and good wood that are generally exceptionally accurate!

 

Long term, I personally think you'd have a higher pride of ownership with the CZ, but if you plan to beat the he!! out of it, you might be better off with the Savage since it's cheaper.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 13:51
jonbravado View Drop Down
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yeah, i have always treated guns as tools - not babied them, but used them.

but a well worn wooden stock isn't an eyesore to me, but a testament of it's good function.

 

so that may be a deciding factor. 

 

but NOW, the more i read, the more i am leaning towards the SST CZ 453 - the trigger will go down to a half a pound.

 

oh well - i'll keep researching - thanks, again, for the input.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 13:57
RifleDude View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jonbravado jonbravado wrote:

i have just gotten my hands on a lightstream 5.5-20x50mm - newer uk company.

( i will be posting a review soon of this scope w/ the help of some pals here at OT - look out for it )

it's a 30mm tube target scope that is optically brilliant (4200 or better quality glass) and is built like an army tank.

mildot w/ illumination.  very very nice target scope.

 

it'll be a bit heavy for a setup and a little larger than normal rimfire optic - but would give topnotch performance w/

side focus down to 40 yrds i think.  I'll post a picture of it soon.

 

would this be overkill for the CZ?  i like the smaller lines of the weaver or leo EFR - but the gun is already heavy.

might as well make it a monster.

 

If you get the 453 with the heavier barrel, I'd opt for the larger target scope.  If you go with the 452 instead, I'd go with the lighter, more compact scope more in keeping with the intended use of the rifle. 

 

I'm a huge proponent of nice, mid to high-end rimfires and I think the CZs fall into that category, even though their price doesn't indicate so.  Since you mentioned the Kahles rimfire, if there's any way you can make that work in your budget, I would highly recommend you give that some consideration.  It's a superb little scope, and will spoil you!

 

Have you also checked out the new Browning T-Bolt?  It is a new reintroduction of the classic straight pull T-Bolt made 40 years ago.  A very nice, light, sleek looking rifle, though it's more expensive than the CZs.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp ?value=021B&cat_id=025&type_id=175

 

Actual street price I've seen is about $100 less than the advertised MSRP, so it can basically be had for ~ $100 more than the CZ.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 14:08
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thanks, Ted.

 

i am almost 100% sold on the CZ 453 varmint - i can adjust the conventional trigger down light enough.

or push the trigger forward for a match trigger feel. 

 

i will most likely use the new target scope i already have and find a load that the gun likes, and stick with it.

 

i just called the store and got a price of 478 for the CZ 453 varmint - i am all but sold.

 

J

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 14:50
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tried a t-bolt, overall size of gun was to small for me, was able to operate action with small finger of trigger hand, very impressive also rotating mag, although similar to rugers is better designed and better made than rugers (as if that wasn't easy to predict). wood was beautiful --- let see how else can I hijack this post.

think you will really like the cz

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2007 at 17:26
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I think you've made a good choice, JB and predict you'll be happy with your purchase.  Let us know how it shoots!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 13:09
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I know you have made your choice, but I am going to go against the grain on this one.  I would prefer the American made product for a couple reasons.  The accu-triger and the button-rifled barrel.  Personally, I believe this gun will live as long as any CZ made product.  Remember this is from the Czech Republic, not Austria or Germany.  All the Savages that I own are fine rifles and the accu-triggers are great.  The laminate stock is also a plus, when it comes to accuracy, long term.  I would save the money and put the rest into the scope. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 13:38
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thanks dolphin -

 

ACTUALLY - i have been reading lots of things about the savage mark II bv and the 453's 452's from CZ and maybe have had a change of heart.

 

i have a top notch scope to put on top - the lightstream UK target scope. (look for my review soon)

so i want to buy a good gun for a good price - i would probably have to spend the 'savings' on my wife  heheh.

 

the trigger on the 452 OR the 453 would have to be replaced - i have heard from several folks that there is simply too much creep on the

standard setting - and you can adjust the weight of the pull NOT the creep.

 

i like the zero creep - nice and crisp approach.

 

so........with that said..........i am now looking at the 452 cz (but replacing the trigger)  OR going back to the mark II bv savage.

 

i have read some sickeningly accurate range reports on the savage today, so i am feeling better about it.

also, the accu-trigger is great out of the box.

 

so, i am going to give it one more night and then decide.

 

thanks for the commentary and advice.  i think they are both fine weapons.

i know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but they are still both good.

 

any ideas on triggers for the CZ? i haven't found much info on drop in's for it.

 

thanks!!

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 15:31
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ok - riflebasix has a nice product for the CZ 452 -

 

i may just bite the bullet, buy the 452 and drop in a 10 oz. trigger.

 

guys, will this hang-with or outshoot the savage?

 

i like the idea of the CZ, but can't ignore the accuracy of the savage.

 

thanks for the input - i am about to settle on one or the other.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 16:04
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Accuracy is a crapshoot with factory rifles, and with few exceptions, it's impossible to say for absolute certain any individual factory rifle will be accurate out of the box, even though both the CZ and Savage rimfires have a good reputation for accuracy.  I have extensive experience with the CZs and the ones I shot were extremely accurate.  I have quite a bit of trigger time behind Savages as well, but not so much their rimfires.  I'm personally not a fan of the Accutrigger, as I don't like having the extra lever in the center of the trigger -- I find it quite annoying and distractive to my shooting.  So, even if I had the Savage, I'd personally replace the trigger with a Sharpshooter Supply, Rifle Basix, etc. aftermarket trigger, which are crisper than the A.T. and can be set for lighter pull if desired.  Therefore, to me the trigger is a non-issue.  Going the aftermarket route, you can get just as good a trigger pull with the CZ as with the Savage, and for not too much $.  As for accuracy, on average, it's probably dead even between the two.  They are very accurate, but neither will quite achieve Anschutz or Cooper accuracy.  My recommendation for the CZ is really based on looks and feel, both of which are very subjective.  Many of the CZs come with some pretty nice wood, and I'm personally willing to pay extra for a nice checkered walnut stock vs. the typical laminated stocks in most cases.  Plus, I just like the balance, proportions, and feel of the CZ's better than the Savages I've seen.  In short, I just like the stock on the CZ a WHOLE lot better than the Savage stock.  These are all personal preferences, though.  As always, YMMV.

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I have the Savage 93R17-BV and it will put hole within a quarter all day long at 100 yards.  I cannot say the .22 Savage will do the same, but I have read that it performs on par with the 17hmr.  I doubt very seriously that the CZ with match the Savage in accuracy.  In addition, when you mention we are not comparing apples to apples, I would have to disagree.  I believe the Savage is a very serious rifle.  If you look at their other offerings, like the Low Profiler, which I also have in a 22-250 and prints similar groups, it again costs far less than similar competition offering the same feature and not even the same accuracy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 16:19
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Rifledude make some good points as always, but the CZ with a wooden stock that is prone to swelling will affect the accuracy of the rifle more than the laminate stock on the Savage.  I own 4 or 5 Savages with the accu-trigger and personally find them to my liking, but not my favortite.  I have only dry fired a CZ at a sporting goods store, so I have no real experience shooting a CZ.  I still would stick American.
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A good .17hmr will typically produce far better accuracy than a .22 LR because of the superior bullet design of the 17 gr V-Max vs. an all-lead .22LR bullet and the more efficient powder (called "Lil Gun") Hornady developed specifically for the .17 rimfires (were talking sporter weight rifles, not competition rifles with match ammo here).  It's not even close.  The .17hmr and .17hm2 have brought a level of accuracy and effective range never before achievable with rimfires.  So, you can't compare a .22 to a .17, the latter of which has double the effective range.  Having said that, there are always exceptions where some .22s will outshoot some .17s, but not typically.

 

Yes, the average CZ will indeed match up head to head with the Savages accuracy-wise in the same chambering -- rimfires that is.  Centerfires is another story.

 

Never said it wasn't an apples to apples comparison, only that I liked the CZ better for JBs stated purpose of offseason practice, because I think it feels more like a big game rifle than the Savages.  My preference for the CZ is based almost exclusively on the fact I like its looks and handling better than the Savage and I like walnut better than laminated wood on this type rifle.  Laminated wood is indeed far more stable than walnut, but my rimfires are my "fair weather" rifles while I'm out plinking or shooting tree rats, unlike some of my big game guns that have to endure pretty foul weather at times.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 17:10
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I fully agree with the 17hmr being more accurate than the .22lr and did not mean that the later was just as accurate, but that the potential for the best accuracy obtainable for a .22 is going to had with the Savage as compared to the CZ.  Actually it was JB who was talking about apples to apples.  Maybe I am just trying to push an American product.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2007 at 17:37
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Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

...but that the potential for the best accuracy obtainable for a .22 is going to had with the Savage as compared to the CZ.  Actually it was JB who was talking about apples to apples.  Maybe I am just trying to push an American product.

 

Ummm... I dunno about that.  From what I've seen, I think they're pretty comparable.

 

I'm all for buying an American product... so my vote goes for... the Cooper 57M!!!!!!   Hey, it's only money, right?

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um anything cooper is awesome although kimber used to build a sweet .22 but im not sure its on the same playing field as the cooper.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2007 at 08:12
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you b%stards are gonna make me spend 1000 on a cooper!!!!  my wife is gonna kill me!!!!

 

LOL  joking.

 

i still couldn't fathom spending that much on a rifle when my cheaper (price) ones MORE than do the job they are enlisted to do.

 

i like nice stuff, but are coops REALLY worth the extra scratch? is 1/4" better @ 100 yrds worth 500 bucks?

or is it the detail of the craftmanship? i have heard NOTHING but rave reviews about coopers.

 

EXCEPT that a fella bought a cooper 22LR - took it to a match - brought it back the next day and traded it for 2 cz's. hehee.

 

i wish tikka T3's came in 22LR.  I am thoroughly pleased w/ that product line. 

 

Thanks guys for the good input/insight -

 

i am more than likely going to go w/ the CZ 452 (377 bucks) and put a riflebasix trigger (85 bucks) in it.

 

my question NOW is:  varmint bull barrel or regular american taper barrel?

 

almost done  thanks again, guys.

 

J

 

 

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