New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - New Rifle Break-In
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

New Rifle Break-In

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options Page  1 2>
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 19:45
jrmoore7138 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: August/04/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 13

While in a gun shop droping my new Rem 700, and scope for boresighting, a fellow customer asked me if I had broke-in the barrel yet. Before I could find out what he was referring to, he received a phone call and had to leave. The young gun in the gun shop did not know what the guy was referring to. Neither do I. Can one of you guys help me out on this? Thanks. John

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 20:22
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 When a barrel is manufactured, the inside surface of the bore is often  left with small mill-marks and scratches from the machining processes. These catch tiny particles of the bullet jacket as it passes through the bore, accumulating progressively until accuracy is diminished.  Many shooters believe that a way to smooth these marks out early in the barrel's career is to go through a cleaning regimen beginning with a very clean barrel.
 One shot is fired, the barrel cleaned thoroughly, another shot, followed again by a good cleaning etc for perhaps ten or twenty cycles.  Then five shots between cleanings for ten cycles or whatever.  There are as many regimens as there are shooters.  The idea is to clean before letting much fouling takes place until the barrel is "broken-in", or smoothed out.
 There is a fair amount of debate as to it's effectiveness, etc.
 I personally prefer to fire-lap.


Edited by RONK - February/24/2008 at 20:24
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 20:33
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9530
I recently used a David Tubbs final finish kit in my .308.  I don't know that it will improve my accuracy as my gun was already shooting .5 MOA.  But it made my gun much much easier to clean and copper and powder fouling has been greatly diminished. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 21:48
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199

 Yeah, that's what I use.  It makes the bore clean up much easier. In some cases it significantly reduced velocity with a given handload, and I was able to increase it back up beyond where it had originally been, before reaching early signs of high pressure. That indicates to me that the bullet passes through the bore much more smoothly upon firing, after being fire-lapped with the Tubb system. YMMV...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 21:54
SamC View Drop Down
Optics Professional
Optics Professional
Avatar

Joined: October/01/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 900
I just bought a box of  David  Tubb's "Final Finish" and a box of his "Final Finish TMS" ammo to help break in my Kimber Montana. I'll try it as soon as the weather warms a bit.
Sam  _popupControl();
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 22:01
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
Originally posted by SamC SamC wrote:

I just bought a box of  David  Tubb's "Final Finish" and a box of his "Final Finish TMS" ammo to help break in my Kimber Montana. I'll try it as soon as the weather warms a bit.
Sam  _popupControl();
 
 
If you have access to a chronograph, I'd be real interested in seeing what you would get for velocities from the same lot of ammo before and after lapping your rifle's bore.
 I bet you would, too!
 Just a thought...
 Edited to add; since it's a Kimber, the bore is probably pretty good from the factory, but it would still be an interesting test.  What is it chambered for?


Edited by RONK - February/24/2008 at 22:03
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2008 at 22:52
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9530
Does Kimber hand lap their barrels?  Just curious, as per my research the barrels that have been hand lapped don't benefit near as much as production barrels from barrel break in procedures.  Some say like Gale McMillian that these hand lapped barrels don't need break in at all.

The thing that is so confusing about barrel break in is all the custom barrel makers disagree on how to break in a barrel.  You go to one of their websites and they say this and go to another maker and it is entirely different.  Some say not to use ammonia type copper removers while Lijia says they have never seen any evidence of damage coming to a barrel it when it is left in them for long amounts of time. 

So really all you can do is pick someones way and hope it is the best approach.     
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 08:50
jrmoore7138 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: August/04/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 13
Thanks guys. I appreciate all the comments / help. John
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 17:02
SamC View Drop Down
Optics Professional
Optics Professional
Avatar

Joined: October/01/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 900
RONK, It's chambered in 30 06 and no I do not have a chronograph but maybe someone in my club does, I'll let you know. supertool 173 to the best of my knowledge Kimber does not hand lap their barrels. Regarding what to use and how to break the barrel in, I think I'm going to follow Tubbs' method on his website.
Sam _popupControl();
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 17:09
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14313
No, Kimber doesn't hand lap their barrels.  Hand lapping is too time consuming and costly for a high volume rifle manufacturer to use.  Hand lapping is pretty much confined to match grade barrels that must air gage within 0.0002" TIR for the entire bore.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2008 at 20:03
ssf467 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: January/16/2008
Location: Junction
Status: Offline
Points: 44
You know my M24 was not broken in and was a sub minute of angle machine
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 07:21
Dolphin View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master


Joined: October/05/2006
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 1795
Does everybody here go through an extensive break in period with every rifle they purchase?  Just curious.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 07:43
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 12822
I have on some and I haven't  on some. If I was a match shooter I might could tell if it helped or not but with the shooting and hunting I do it hasn't helped or hurt ether way.
I took a rifle out of the box shoot 100 thru it cleaned it and shoot 100 more and haven't cleaned it since.
 
I took a rifle shot one cleaned x 20
shot 2 cleaned x10
shot 5 cleaned x4
then went to normal shooting.
 
Both rifles shoot great groups and put game to sleep.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 08:28
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9530
I think it will help more with the copper and powder fouling than anything.  If you can smooth out some of the tool marks in the barrel, then copper won't get caught up on those marks as bad which leads to less cleaning.

I did not break mine in initially either and it shot great, but it was a pain to clean.  Once I finally got it clean and then ran the Tubbs system through it, it cleans a whole lot easier now.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 09:44
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14313
I've gone full circle on this.  I used to not do anything to "break in" a new barrel except just go out and shoot it.  Then, based on all the reports about the "need" to break in barrels, I started doing it.  I can't say that it did anything except take up extra time and bore solvent.  Now, I do a sort of "mini break-in" where I will clean my barrel more frequently at first until it's had about 50 rounds fired through it.  Generally, I'll clean after every shot for the first 5 shots, and thereafter after every 5 shots until I've fired about 50 rounds total.  Then, I just clean when I feel guilty.  With a custom match barrel, I don't do any specific break-in, because these barrels have already been hand lapped.
 
This is a really controversial topic.  There are several barrel manufacturers that claim using a break-in procedure does nothing more than waste time and energy.  My own take on it is I don't think it hurts anything, and I do believe it may help smooth out a rough factory barrel with a moderate amount of tool marks to prevent excessive fouling early in its life.   I also believe that fire lapping (i.e. the Tubbs kit) can be beneficial in some cases, though I've never used it personally.  I don't believe that if you stray away from some strict "clean after each round for X number of shots" followed by some incremental cleaning frequency that it will ruin the potential accuracy of your barrel, though.  I think there are many rituals that we shooters often become obsessed with performing that are passed from person to person which sound logical, but seldom have any proven basis of fact.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 10:29
Roy Finn View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Steiner Junkie

Joined: April/05/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4856
The biggest advantage to "breaking in a barrel" is ease of cleaning. I don't recall anyonr stating it would make a accurate barrel any more accurate.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 10:41
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 12822

If I get a heavily fouled barrel in the shop I take a cleaning rod and put 0000 steel wool and wrap it around the brush tightly and then take 1000 grit past and wipe it all over the steel wool and lap it about 15 or 20 passes and then clean with mineral spirits and blow it dry with air and see if it gets the fouling out. This also helps in smoothing the boar out. I have had more than a few people that bring me there guns for work tell me that it makes it shoot like new. Doing this it will NOT hurt anything if don't right. It dose take allot of work to make a barrel as smooth as I like it but I'm doing it for the customer and not me. That’s what keeps them coming back time after time. I do about 200 full cleanings a month. every part that will come off a gun from barrel to trigger group to ejector spring get cleaned with spirits and then  blown dry, Polished and then lightly oiled and put back together. But when I tell people it will be 75$ for a gun cleaning they tend to freak out until they see me clean there’s. I have even taken pictures of one’s I have cleaned so people will see how much time and effort goes into gun maintenance.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 10:49
mwyates View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 1196
I did it once and that was enough for me. I shoot until accuracy suffers, then I clean.  Several of my rifles need a fouling shot anyway, so I don't keep my main rifles clean in between shooting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 11:00
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14313
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

The biggest advantage to "breaking in a barrel" is ease of cleaning. I don't recall anyonr stating it would make a accurate barrel any more accurate.
 
That has been one of the claims made about barrel break-in.  If a barrel's bore is smoother up to a point, it would pick up less jacket material and foul less than a rough bore, which can make the rifle group more consistently.  I've also heard that tendency to foul has more to do with the orientation of the tool marks -- whether they are radial, as the marks would be left over from gundrilling and reaming, vs. parallel with the c/l of the bore, as they would be after lapping.  Then, there are those such as the Wiseman barrel people who say a bore that is TOO smooth will foul easily as well. 
 
I personally believe a small amount of fouling doesn't hurt accuracy at all, and in fact, may actually help accuracy because it "conditions" the bore by filling in some of the microscopic imperfections in the bore with a very thin layer of copper, evening out the bore surface.
 
There are seemingly as many different theories on this topic as there are shooters.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 11:44
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9530
They are having this discussion again over at snipersparadise and Vern Harrison made this comment when people brought up the Gale McMillan opinions of barrel break in. (that it is a waste of time and barrels makers came up with this to get people to wear out their barrels faster so they could sell more) Vern (Flea) owns Central Virginia Tactical a sniper training school and has been a precision marksman pretty much his whole life. What he says here makes a lot of sense to me and has made me look into the whole barrel break in a lot more.

Quote What folks tend not to understand is people like both Gale and Pat McMillan were master barrel makers. When they sent a barrel out it had been lapped to perfection. These barrels took little or no break in. I've seen this in Clay Spencers barrels also.

There are tons of folks building barrels now and not all of them know how to properly lap a bore. Many of these folks were machinist and just got interested in making barrels and money. Thats why we see so many different methods of break in. I've been using the same method to break in barrels for over 40 years. None of my barrels will copper foul, this is a huge saving on time and chemicals. Why? Because I hate to clean rifles. Plus once it's broke in properly the shooter can firing 100 to 150 round before cleaning. Now that doesn't mean you can leave copper and lead fouling in the bore for days at a time.

In the last 20 to 30 years we've learned that electrolysis is a huge barrel killer. Thats when two opposing metals eat away at each other leaving pits or even the lose of lands in the bore. It's amazing what we've learn by looking through bore scopes.

Take care, flea
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 12:11
Tip69 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
Tip Stick

Joined: September/27/2005
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
I did the shoot and clean for the first 20.... then shoot 2 and clean..... and so forth on my Son's 22-250 Model 11 Savage and I'm not sure I'll do it again.  It was a pain in the a$$ and I'm not sure it cleans any easier or not. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 12:33
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9530
I always wonder how unless you are using some kind of bullets like Tubbs that have grit to them, how a soft copper jacket will have any affect on steel.  That part just does not make much sense to me, if there is a ruff spot from a tool then how can just running smooth copper across it smooth it out.  My understanding is when then hand lap them they your a compound that will actually smooth out the barrel with grit and use different levels of grit to do it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 12:50
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 12822
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I always wonder how unless you are using some kind of bullets like Tubbs that have grit to them, how a soft copper jacket will have any affect on steel.  That part just does not make much sense to me, if there is a ruff spot from a tool then how can just running smooth copper across it smooth it out.  My understanding is when then hand lap them they your a compound that will actually smooth out the barrel with grit and use different levels of grit to do it.
 
Yup hand lapping is done in stages. I do mine with a paste type sand goo. I start with 600 and then go to 800 then to 1000 then to 1500 I will use 0000 steel wool to polish the boar. 9 out 0f 10 times I do this the boar is like a mirror with no scrtaches what so ever There is not even any hairline scrtaches. it is perfectly smooth. then it is fired and not shiny and smooth anymore.
 
the reason I stay with high grit is that I don't want to cause any more scrtches/pits ect. .  to the barrel than it already has. I would rather spend more time to get it right than go and fix something I have done while trying to lap it.
 


Edited by Bigdaddy0381 - February/26/2008 at 12:51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 20:15
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
[QUOTE=Roy Finn]The biggest advantage to "breaking in a barrel" is ease of cleaning. I don't recall anyonr stating it would make a accurate barrel any more accurate. [/QUOTE
 
 True enough, but let's take it a step further.  Many barrels exhibit a progressive and gradual decrease in accuracy as they begin to foul. The smoother they are, the less quickly they foul, allowing gilt-edged accuracy to be retained for a much higher round count before accuracy falls to an unacceptable level. To me, that defines "More Accurate" in a fairly broad sense, of course...
 
 Edited to add:  I'm talking heavy, cumulative fouling here, not the few fouling shots that as Rifle Dude mentions fill pores and actually help accuracy for a time.


Edited by RONK - February/26/2008 at 20:25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/26/2008 at 20:35
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I always wonder how unless you are using some kind of bullets like Tubbs that have grit to them, how a soft copper jacket will have any affect on steel.  That part just does not make much sense to me, if there is a ruff spot from a tool then how can just running smooth copper across it smooth it out.  My understanding is when then hand lap them they your a compound that will actually smooth out the barrel with grit and use different levels of grit to do it.
 
 I suppose that very small burrs and scratches will be removed over time with the passage of enough rounds, but you're right, it will certainly be a slow and inefficient process without an abrasive agent involved.
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  1 2>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "New Rifle Break-In"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for info on New Ithaca Rifles 637mase Firearms 8
new ruger rifle billyburl2 Firearms 68
New rifle (again), need new scope (again) bugsNbows Rifle Scopes 10
New Swarovski X5 Long Range Rifle Scopes Chris Farris Tactical Scopes 6
Need Scope options for new rifle build:6.5G AR herodrh Firearms 6
New rifle needs a new scope ITyson Rifle Scopes 7
All new here and sort of new to rifles... alien883 Rifle Scopes 4
Question about ammo in breaking-in a new barrel BM454 Firearms 16
*NEW* Vortex Viper HS Rifle Scopes Brady Rifle Scopes 19
New rifle & scope gcp Rifle Scopes 18


This page was generated in 0.406 seconds.